1. #7881
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    There is a lot in your post, but I believe the common thread running through it is this. The idea that what the pro High Elf community is asking for is not a duplicate of a core Horde race, but something that can be it's own thing.

    Contrary to popular opinion, I have never failed to grasp this distinction as advanced by some posters. The problem is I just don't believe it is possible.
    And if the position in the last sentence there was the one most commonly reflected in your posts, we would be in a situation we we simply agree to disagree.

    Instead, virtually all posts decrying playable High Elves as being impossible seek to factualize the idea that there aren't any distinctions between the groups at all.

    An assertion which is narratively false, and enormously so, but which also presupposes that those who advocate for implementing playable High Elves actually want a clone of the Blood Elves (which, in case it isn't clear by the last 400 pages, is also eggregiously false).

    It is also mildly curious that you're (and not only you, but the anti-HE crowd generally) stipulating here that you simply don't believe it is possible for Blizzard to depict High Elves as sufficiently unique from Blood Elves, despite there being 15-years of documented political and/or cultural divergence between the two which could easily be utilized to explain a myriad of unique aesthetics, but then simultaneously recommend that those interested in HE's should just learn to live Void Elves... a group of Blood Elves whom were made sudfciently unique from Blood Elves, and who didn't have the benefit of 15-years of narrative development.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Blizzard already made the effort to differentiate a group of Thalassian Elves in a meaningful way from the majority of their race, different enough that they would qualify as an Allied Race. This was the Void Elves, a group nobody is ever going to mistake as being a Blood/High Elf. The problem becomes once you move closer than what a Void Elf is, you begin infringing on the thematic and aesthetic integrity of the Horde and the Blood Elves.
    This is basically addressed by my above statement. To my eyes, this assertion you're making reads a lot like this:

    "I don't believe Blizzard is capable of depicting another group of Thalassians in a manner which is unique enough that it doesn't infringe upon the Blood Elves, so my recommendation is that you play this new group of Thalassians that Blizzard just implemented who are depicted in a manner which is unique enough that it doesn't infringe upon the Blood Elves."

    You see how that position is flawed, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I particularly take issue with the line that 'The people who want High Elves don't want anything remotely resembling the self-righteous, vainglorious, isolationist, semi-xenophobic, Light-worshipping Blood Elves.' With the exception of Light-worshipping, I believe the desire is for 'Warcraft 2 style Elves, correct? Warcraft 2 High Elves were the poster-children for self-righteous, vainglorious, isolationist and being semi-xenophobic. This is backed up by the lore on every level, showing the Elves of Quel'thalas as being pretty unwilling members of the Alliance and exceptionally stuck up.
    The vast majority of all posts citing Warcraft II-style High Elves are addressing the assertion that visual uniqueness between modern High Elves and modern Blood Elves is impossible.

    They're not usually speaking to the culture at all, and instead are basically suggesting that in order for modern HE's to be made more visually distinct, they might become "romanticized".

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    As for 'They want the narratively recognized High Elves, humbled, devoted, disciplined, tactically skilled, naturalistically-inclined, predominantly non-Void/non-Light aligned pragmatists'. Nothing precludes the Warcraft 2 elves from being devoted, disciplined and tactically skilled as well as being 'self-righteous, vainglorious, isolationist, semi-xenophobic'. Being a good fighter does not mean you can't be a race of pompous jackasses either. High Elves have never, ever, in any incarnation, been humble.
    This is basically little more than a musing on your part. Yes, sure, in theory there is nothing stopping someome from being both a disciplined fighter and an outspoken racist, but we are currently talking about modern High Elves.

    I'm not sure if you simply don't play the Alliance, but the High Elves are depicted at almost all times as a generally humbled population.

    Moreover, they tend to be portrayed as being aggressively defensive of their fellow member-states -- and while this next statement is likely to be dissected a thousand ways, the High Elves even showed up when danger lurked at the doorstep of Quel'thalas. The HE's were willing to work alongside a group who, by all rights was their primary enemy, because doing so preserved the possibility of reconciliation (in their eyes, this means BE's rejoining the Alliance; unbeknownst to them, this is a futile belief, owing to game mechanics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I believe the critical points in your final line is an when you use naturalisitcally-inclined.

    Naturalistically inclined is a euphemism for more like a Wood Elf, emphasising the farstrider heritage of the vast majority of the tiny number of Alliance High Elves left. Which of course brings up the usual two fold problem. Firstly that there are already Wood Elves in WoW called Night Elves and that attempting to differentiate Alliance High Elves from Horde Blood Elves by blurring the lines with an existing, already playable race is redundant in the extreme and unfair to players who really like Night Elves in having their theme and special role in the game undermined. Secondly, that the Farstrider aesthetic originates with the Farstriders, one of the three pillars of Blood/High Elven civilization (Blood Elf Mage, Blood Elf Hunter, Blood Elf Paladin...the definitive trinity) and that anything culturally associated with the Farstriders should be available to the Blood Elves. The facial tattoos employed by Alleria for example. Currently only used by her, would be a nice Blood Elf customization and would make sense.
    I wrote like 8 paragraphs in response to this, initially, but they were cut off by MMO-C. So the re-write is going to be exceptionally brief.

    Basically, I should've been more clear about what I meant by "naturalist". I didn't intend for it to carry any of the in-game connotations (i.e. marked by the light usage of nature-based magic, as was common for "traditional Rangers").

    I would much rather like to see emphasis placed on the presumption that the overwhelming majority of the people who would become BE's were individuals who utilized magic of any kind on a day-to-day basis (prior to the loss of the Sunwell), whereas the majority of the people who would become the modern HE's were people who did not use magic on a day-to-day basis (prior to the loss of the Sunwell).

    This would actually go well with the idea of Vereesa Windrunner being a self-styled Ranger. Thus, it could be that playable HE's are depicted as adhering to a culture which is an extreme romanticisation of up there ancestral traditions, but which ironically has very little actual continuous relation to the original institutions.

    I actually agree with your first point, that "traditional Rangers" being the driving for for a playable race would be superfluous, I just failed to properly articulate what I meant by "naturalist".

    To the second point, I would agree that Farstriders are "a pillar of Blood Elven civilization" in the same way that the Highborne are "a pillar of Night Elven civilization".

    The ladder didn't prevent the Nightborne from becoming a thing, so I see no reason why the former should prevent High Elves from becoming a thing. There are a few reasonable concerns with adding playable High Elves, but this isn't one of them. We haven't seen any significant grouping of Farstriders performing any notable feat since, what, TBC?

    Edit: Also, the Farstriders were the frontline defense when Arthas invaded Quel'thalas. It is quite likely the majority of the original, "traditional Rangers" currently serve the Banshee Queen.
    Last edited by Fyersing; 2018-11-13 at 11:24 PM.

  2. #7882
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    High Elves on Alliance even have NE voice lines (besides any obvious ishnu-alah type lines) because Blizzard is showing that their personality and mannerisms isn't the same as pompous Blood Elves.

  3. #7883
    How have none of the mods closed this thread yet? Every page are people just trash talking each other and being so aggressive. High elves are not going to happen, blizzard stated this, please close this thread to prevent people from acting like assholes to each other.

  4. #7884
    Quote Originally Posted by MHMabrito View Post
    How have none of the mods closed this thread yet? Every page are people just trash talking each other and being so aggressive. High elves are not going to happen, blizzard stated this, please close this thread to prevent people from acting like assholes to each other.
    Closing this thread would lead to multiple new threads on pretty much the same topic. High Elf threads are like the Hydra of Lerna, cut off one head and two new ones spawn in its place

  5. #7885
    Not sure why you guys are even talking to Obelisk Kai. I mean, he said this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    And there is no merit to the pro High Elf point of view.
    There is no discussion that can be had with him that's worth your time.

  6. #7886
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keihndeth View Post
    Not sure why you guys are even talking to Obelisk Kai. I mean, he said this...



    There is no discussion that can be had with him that's worth your time.
    And I stand by that. There is no merit to the pro High Elf point of view based on the game right now as it is fundamentally a request for a gigantic retcon, to alter the High Elves from what they are (identical to blood elves) to what they are not as part of a justification for their inclusion.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2018-11-14 at 11:24 AM.

  7. #7887
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    High Elves on Alliance even have NE voice lines (besides any obvious ishnu-alah type lines) because Blizzard is showing that their personality and mannerisms isn't the same as pompous Blood Elves.
    Normally, I hate Blood Elves. I hate their stupid smug faces, arrogant poses, and the fact that they are evil traitors. BUT this tiny little change, just copy pasting the Nelf voice lines, is enough to make me really like High Elves. The pompous voice is enough to make a world of difference, for me at least. This was way back then when the Silver Covenant first made an appearance in WotLK.


    Anyway, someone on the WoW forums made some really nice High Elf edits.


    I adore the brown skin and blue eyes look. This is currently unobtainable with the available elf options. Including the pupils.
    Last edited by Alixie; 2018-11-14 at 11:00 AM.

  8. #7888
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    And if the position in the last sentence there was the one most commonly reflected in your posts, we would be in a situation we we simply agree to disagree.
    That is probably true. You will never convince me that High Elves can be differentiated from Blood Elves in a meaningful way. The litmus test is, could a Blood Elf right now look like any of the suggestions? And in every case the answer is, yes, a Blood Elf could. A Void Elf looks is unachieveable by a Blood/High Elf and vice versa. That is meaningful differentiation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    Instead, virtually all posts decrying playable High Elves as being impossible seek to factualize the idea that there aren't any distinctions between the groups at all.
    The sole meaningful difference between a Blood Elf and an Alliance High Elf is political allegiance. Attempts to create distinction have focused on finding ANY difference, no matter how meager and expanding them with supposition and extrapolation. Example, the idea that because most remaining High Elves are former Farstriders they would be more outdoorsy, more muscular, more rugged to justify a different model from the more magic focused Blood Elves. Obvious counter-point, not all Blood Elves use magic to the level of the Magisters, and that there are Blood Elf Farstriders (Hunters), Warriors, Rogues, Monks etc. who live lives that are as physically demanding as anything the Silver Covenant Hunters engage in. Therefore there is no basis for differentiation on those grounds. This kind of logic is pervasive. Anything that is thought of to differentiate Alliance High Elves from Blood Elves doesn't really work as a compelling argument can always be made as to why such a look should be available to Blood Elves. An argument can even be made as to why blue eyes should be a Blood Elf customization option now and we still live in hope for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    An assertion which is narratively false, and enormously so, but which also presupposes that those who advocate for implementing playable High Elves actually want a clone of the Blood Elves (which, in case it isn't clear by the last 400 pages, is also eggregiously false).

    It is also mildly curious that you're (and not only you, but the anti-HE crowd generally) stipulating here that you simply don't believe it is possible for Blizzard to depict High Elves as sufficiently unique from Blood Elves, despite there being 15-years of documented political and/or cultural divergence between the two which could easily be utilized to explain a myriad of unique aesthetics, but then simultaneously recommend that those interested in HE's should just learn to live Void Elves... a group of Blood Elves whom were made sudfciently unique from Blood Elves, and who didn't have the benefit of 15-years of narrative development.
    The fifteen years of narrative development you claim Alliance High Elves have enjoyed is a debatable claim. Firstly, they have not been the focus of continuous story development and have been mostly background actors when utilized. Cultural divergence is a bold claim to make, when there is no evidence to support it. When they constructed the Silver Covenant, Veressa styled herself as 'Ranger-General', clearly aping the leader of the Farstriders organization the Silver Covenant itself apes. The few High Elf Mages still style themselves as Magisters. When they construct a building, it is Silvermoon architecture they employ albeit coloured blue. Alliance High Elf pilgrims visited the Sunwell after it's restoration and while there is no evidence the Alliance High Elves worship the light to the same degree the Blood Elves are beginning to, the Alliance High Elves are still as dependent on the Holy/Arcane energy source and are subject to the same changes the Blood Elves are whether spiritual or biological. The Sunwell does not discriminate on the grounds of political opinion.

    And where changes have occurred, it is not the Alliance High Elves creating their own culture or aesthetic but assimilating into Human culture. So they either ape Silvermoon and the Blood Elves and when they don't they ape their Human hosts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    This is basically addressed by my above statement. To my eyes, this assertion you're making reads a lot like this:

    "I don't believe Blizzard is capable of depicting another group of Thalassians in a manner which is unique enough that it doesn't infringe upon the Blood Elves, so my recommendation is that you play this new group of Thalassians that Blizzard just implemented who are depicted in a manner which is unique enough that it doesn't infringe upon the Blood Elves."

    You see how that position is flawed, no?
    That summation misses the point. Void Elves are acceptable, and only barely so, because the nature of their differentiation is something unachieveable by an existing Blood/High Elf whilst still remaining a Blood/High ELF. To become a Void Elf means to sacrifice everything that defines the Blood/High Elves and become something else. There is clear purple water between the two groups, an unbridgeable physical divide. Conversely, Alliance High Elves cannot be physically differentiated because there is nothing they can do that is not also available to the Blood Elves.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    This is basically little more than a musing on your part. Yes, sure, in theory there is nothing stopping someome from being both a disciplined fighter and an outspoken racist, but we are currently talking about modern High Elves.

    I'm not sure if you simply don't play the Alliance, but the High Elves are depicted at almost all times as a generally humbled population.
    I have levelled several Alliance characters over the years and I currently maintain a level 120 Draenei Shaman as my Alliance side toon. I have encountered the High Elves as well, and each encounter has stood out due to their rarity. Humble is not the word I would use to describe them because I didn't find them much different from the majority of Blood Elf quest givers I interacted with. Sure, there are arrogant Blood Elves, but there have also been stupid, arrogant Alliance High Elves.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death-Hunter_Hawkspear

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    Moreover, they tend to be portrayed as being aggressively defensive of their fellow member-states -- and while this next statement is likely to be dissected a thousand ways, the High Elves even showed up when danger lurked at the doorstep of Quel'thalas. The HE's were willing to work alongside a group who, by all rights was their primary enemy, because doing so preserved the possibility of reconciliation (in their eyes, this means BE's rejoining the Alliance; unbeknownst to them, this is a futile belief, owing to game mechanics.
    They are not aggressively defensive of their fellow member states. That implies they are a state of equal worth within the Alliance. They are not. The Alliance High Elves are an exiled expatriate community of, and I say this next word without emotion because it is true, traitors to Silvermoon. They are aggressively defending their new homes because they have nowhere else to go, which is not a trait I would ascribe as being unique to them. Anyone in a similar situation would react similarly.

    And if we are talking gameplay mechanics, the reason the High Elves showed up on the door step of Zul Aman was to give Alliance players an 'in' to the new dungeon back in Cataclysm. Nothing came of that moment. No High Elf participation in the dungeon, no further strife between Halduron and Lor'themar, no follow up. There was no reconciliation either. In fact, given the glee with which they butchered the Blood Elf population of Dalaran during the purge and murdered civilians I figure they are a lot more bitter towards Quel'thalas than you may care to admit.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    I wrote like 8 paragraphs in response to this, initially, but they were cut off by MMO-C. So the re-write is going to be exceptionally brief.

    Basically, I should've been more clear about what I meant by "naturalist". I didn't intend for it to carry any of the in-game connotations (i.e. marked by the light usage of nature-based magic, as was common for "traditional Rangers").

    I would much rather like to see emphasis placed on the presumption that the overwhelming majority of the people who would become BE's were individuals who utilized magic of any kind on a day-to-day basis (prior to the loss of the Sunwell), whereas the majority of the people who would become the modern HE's were people who did not use magic on a day-to-day basis (prior to the loss of the Sunwell).
    All thalassian elves are addicted to magic. It is the defining aspect of their race and it affects each and every one of them. But only a fraction of their people practice magic such as the Magisters. I could be addicted to chocolate but that wouldn't make me a Chocolatier. The majority of the Blood Elves are probably civilians, non magic users. The destruction of the Sunwell affected them all, some worse than others, but it did not discriminate between the Mages and the Hunters. Besides, the ideological point of divergence has been explained as being between those who would consume mana from other living things and those who wouldn't. What is interesting though is that the majority of the tiny number of remaining High Elves can be grouped into former Farstriders and Dalaran Mages who did not return to Quel'thalas. This doesn't imply that magic use was the dividing line (Dalaran High Elf Mages prove the exact opposite)...it suggests interaction with the Alliance is the dividing line.

    The Dalaran Mages prioritised Dalaran over their homeland. The Farstriders likely fought beside the Alliance in the Second War, and some of those at the time openly disagreed with Anasterian's isolationism. The next line is my own supposition, but their objection to consuming mana was therefore likely rooted in the knowledge that their Alliance comrades would be disgusted by such a naked manifestation of their addiction, shorn of the majesty and mystique that the Sunwell provided.



    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    This would actually go well with the idea of Vereesa Windrunner being a self-styled Ranger. Thus, it could be that playable HE's are depicted as adhering to a culture which is an extreme romanticisation of up there ancestral traditions, but which ironically has very little actual continuous relation to the original institutions.
    As discussed, all evidence shows the High Elves either aping Silvermoon or assimilating with humanity. And an extreme parody of your culture is still your culture and is not differentiation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    I actually agree with your first point, that "traditional Rangers" being the driving for for a playable race would be superfluous, I just failed to properly articulate what I meant by "naturalist".
    Yet the Silver Covenant is overwhelmingly a Hunter organization, to the point they were part of the coalition assembled in the Hunter class hall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    To the second point, I would agree that Farstriders are "a pillar of Blood Elven civilization" in the same way that the Highborne are "a pillar of Night Elven civilization".
    The Highborne are no longer a pillar of Night Elven civilization. They live on the fringes, although they won a measure of respect for their work and sacrifices during the evacuation of Teldrassil. The pillars of Night Elven Society are the Sentinels (Warriors and Hunters), the sisterhood of Elune (Priests) and the Druids. The Farstriders however remain a pillar of Blood Elven civilization. It is hard to take seriously the complaints of others (not you) who say the Farstriders are under-represented when the Blood Elf faction leader is a Farstrider. As a point of comparison, it would be akin to saying in WOLTK that shamans aren't important to Orcs, despite Thrall being a Shaman, because the warrior Garrosh was getting more screen time in Northrend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    The ladder didn't prevent the Nightborne from becoming a thing, so I see no reason why the former should prevent High Elves from becoming a thing. There are a few reasonable concerns with adding playable High Elves, but this isn't one of them. We haven't seen any significant grouping of Farstriders performing any notable feat since, what, TBC?
    The Nightborne are a preservation of what Night Elf civilization was. It is a complete magocracy. It is as different from what the Night Elves became as it is possible to get.

    The last notable feat preformed by the Farstriders as a group was joining the Hunter class hall. Which is the same last notable feat performed by the Silver Covenant. I agree that it was a small gesture and mostly unworthy of comment...but if it is so unworthy for the Farstriders that you've forgotten it then it is clearly as unworthy of comment for the Silver Covenant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyersing View Post
    Edit: Also, the Farstriders were the frontline defense when Arthas invaded Quel'thalas. It is quite likely the majority of the original, "traditional Rangers" currently serve the Banshee Queen.
    Yes, but enough survived that Lor'themar had the basis for a working military and like all parts of Blood Elven society, they are rebuilding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    Normally, I hate Blood Elves. I hate their stupid smug faces, arrogant poses, and the fact that they are evil traitors. BUT this tiny little change, just copy pasting the Nelf voice lines, is enough to make me really like High Elves. The pompous voice is enough to make a world of difference, for me at least. This was way back then when the Silver Covenant first made an appearance in WotLK.


    Anyway, someone on the WoW forums made some really nice High Elf edits.


    I adore the brown skin and blue eyes look. This is currently unobtainable with the available elf options. Including the pupils.
    And why, if brown skinned elves exist, were they all exiled? Why didn't some of the brown skinned elves say, 'You know, I would rather stay here and serve my Prince?'

    Why wouldn't we have brown skinned Blood Elves?

    I have no objection to darker skin tones for thalassian elves, but as an idea for differentiation with the Blood Elves they come with a lot of unpleasant connotations. If those skin tones are provided, there is an absolutely no reason why they would not be an option for Blood Elves too.
    @Fyersing this is the sort of thing regarding differentiation I am on about by the way.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2018-11-14 at 11:33 AM.

  9. #7889
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    Normally, I hate Blood Elves. I hate their stupid smug faces, arrogant poses, and the fact that they are evil traitors. BUT this tiny little change, just copy pasting the Nelf voice lines, is enough to make me really like High Elves. The pompous voice is enough to make a world of difference, for me at least. This was way back then when the Silver Covenant first made an appearance in WotLK.

    I adore the brown skin and blue eyes look. This is currently unobtainable with the available elf options. Including the pupils.
    Yup, small variations like their voices, skin/hair/eye colors can all add up to meaningful differences. It's not really about any individual customization it's about the sum of all their parts.

    Also that illustration is amazing! And supported in lore

    "Devi is a high elf sorceress and the apparent apprentice of Krasus, the alias of the great red dragon Korialstrasz. She is a dark-skinned elf with raven-black hair, and has both a curious and inquisitive air about her that some within the Kirin Tor's ranks deem impudent. However, Krasus appreciates her up-front nature."

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Devi

    So we have evidence of another way to meaningfully differentiate High Elves vs Blood Elves. The skin tones for High Elves (I'm guessing due to the changed environment of where they mainly stayed) can be those similar to Humans. It also gives the vibe of them intermingling with humans as spitefully said by Elisande.

    Remember, Kul'Tirans had the same Human model as Stormwind Humans until they were made playable. And the explanation given was a "sea-faring monster hunting lifestyle".

    There's no precedent set forward that a race must stay as how it is when it transitions to becoming playable. In fact the opposite is true, that they get extra customizations they didn't previously have in order to achieve the focused aesthetic differences that Blizzard wants them to have.

    So it doesn't matter at all that there is Farstriders existing in the Blood Elf organization. That's not their focused aesthetic Blizzard wants them to have.

    Just as it doesn't matter that Stormwind Human sailors/navymen/admirals etc exist, that naval focused aesthetic is given over to Kul'Tirans and made a big show of it. Because again, it's what Blizzard deems is their focused aesthetic.

    Same for how a small Night Elf/Highborne mage society exists in Night Elves didn't stop Nightborne from becoming playable.

    Just as Alleria calls back to the iconic High Elf Ranger look, that's a focused aesthetic available for playable High Elves to partake in.

  10. #7890
    At this point i want blizzard to stop placing high elf npcs in the alliance ranks. If you need a caster npc in the alliance ranks. A human or gnome will suffice.

  11. #7891
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    There is a lot in your post, but I believe the common thread running through it is this. The idea that what the pro High Elf community is asking for is not a duplicate of a core Horde race, but something that can be it's own thing.[SNIP]
    Aaaand out. I got bad news for you: High Elves would be much more a duplicate of Blood Elves than Void Elves are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Yup, small variations like their voices, skin/hair/eye colors can all add up to meaningful differences. It's not really about any individual customization it's about the sum of all their parts.

    Also that illustration is amazing! And supported in lore

    "Devi is a high elf sorceress and the apparent apprentice of Krasus, the alias of the great red dragon Korialstrasz. She is a dark-skinned elf with raven-black hair, and has both a curious and inquisitive air about her that some within the Kirin Tor's ranks deem impudent. However, Krasus appreciates her up-front nature."

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Devi

    So we have evidence of another way to meaningfully differentiate High Elves vs Blood Elves. The skin tones for High Elves (I'm guessing due to the changed environment of where they mainly stayed) can be those similar to Humans. It also gives the vibe of them intermingling with humans as spitefully said by Elisande.

    Remember, Kul'Tirans had the same Human model as Stormwind Humans until they were made playable. And the explanation given was a "sea-faring monster hunting lifestyle".

    There's no precedent set forward that a race must stay as how it is when it transitions to becoming playable. In fact the opposite is true, that they get extra customizations they didn't previously have in order to achieve the focused aesthetic differences that Blizzard wants them to have.

    So it doesn't matter at all that there is Farstriders existing in the Blood Elf organization. That's not their focused aesthetic Blizzard wants them to have.

    Just as it doesn't matter that Stormwind Human sailors/navymen/admirals etc exist, that naval focused aesthetic is given over to Kul'Tirans and made a big show of it. Because again, it's what Blizzard deems is their focused aesthetic.

    Same for how a small Night Elf/Highborne mage society exists in Night Elves didn't stop Nightborne from becoming playable.

    Just as Alleria calls back to the iconic High Elf Ranger look, that's a focused aesthetic available for playable High Elves to partake in.
    Should have posted the most relevant information: "What became of Devi in the main universe is unclear, as she is seen only in the alternate timeline."

    WoD was bad enough.

  12. #7892
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    And I stand by that. There is no merit to the pro High Elf point of view based on the game right now as it is fundamentally a request for a gigantic retcon, to alter the High Elves from what they are (identical to blood elves) to what they are not as part of a justification for their inclusion.
    Eredar being corrupted by Sargeras and not the other way around is a "gigantic retcon", and it is not even that gigantic.

    Placing HE in the alliance as a playable option with the current lore is just adding a current alliance race in the character creation panel, not even a retcon.

    Please, is very easy to understand at this point...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    Normally, I hate Blood Elves. I hate their stupid smug faces, arrogant poses, and the fact that they are evil traitors. BUT this tiny little change, just copy pasting the Nelf voice lines, is enough to make me really like High Elves. The pompous voice is enough to make a world of difference, for me at least. This was way back then when the Silver Covenant first made an appearance in WotLK.


    Anyway, someone on the WoW forums made some really nice High Elf edits.


    I adore the brown skin and blue eyes look. This is currently unobtainable with the available elf options. Including the pupils.
    Well, looks nice, but skintone of that kind is not something that would make sense to just HE to have, it would have to be blood elven too.

    The thing is that warpaint or decorations/jewelry/trinkets would be more than enought, and for what we can see in game, blue hair and very pale skin, but not this.
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2018-11-14 at 06:45 PM.

  13. #7893
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Light-worshipping Blood Elves.
    I don't think that they are strongly connected to the light. They may have some paladins who try to be in good relationship with Naaru, but their light magic is mostly about magic, not religion. If they were religious people, they wouldn't abandon Elune.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  14. #7894
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That is probably true. You will never convince me that High Elves can be differentiated from Blood Elves in a meaningful way. The litmus test is, could a Blood Elf right now look like any of the suggestions? And in every case the answer is, yes, a Blood Elf could. A Void Elf looks is unachieveable by a Blood/High Elf and vice versa. That is meaningful differentiation.
    The purpose of public exchange is seldom to change the mind of the people actively engaged in the discussion, but rather to function as a platform from which all of the relevant notions can be explained to the wider population. So any/all back-and-forth about playable HE's isn't intended to change the minds of people who've made up their minds, but to change the minds of people who haven't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The sole meaningful difference between a Blood Elf and an Alliance High Elf is political allegiance.
    The narrative, as it exists currently, disagrees.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Attempts to create distinction have focused on finding ANY difference, no matter how meager and expanding them with supposition and extrapolation. Example, the idea that because most remaining High Elves are former Farstriders they would be more outdoorsy, more muscular, more rugged to justify a different model from the more magic focused Blood Elves. Obvious counter-point, not all Blood Elves use magic to the level of the Magisters, and that there are Blood Elf Farstriders (Hunters), Warriors, Rogues, Monks etc. who live lives that are as physically demanding as anything the Silver Covenant Hunters engage in. Therefore there is no basis for differentiation on those grounds.
    It is a sort of odd position to take, don't you think? You're positing that there aren't large enough differences between BE's and HE's, which would theoretically hamstring Blizzard's ability to create a sufficiently unique thematic for the latter, while simultaneously suggesting that "expanding [said differences] with supposition and extrapolation" is an inherently flawed means of driving narrative.

    Isn't "expanding [upon things] with supposition and extrapolation" like, definitionally, how stories progress?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Anything that is thought of to differentiate Alliance High Elves from Blood Elves doesn't really work as a compelling argument can always be made as to why such a look should be available to Blood Elves. An argument can even be made as to why blue eyes should be a Blood Elf customization option now and we still live in hope for that.
    I tend to agree, but more on this later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The fifteen years of narrative development you claim Alliance High Elves have enjoyed is a debatable claim. Firstly, they have not been the focus of continuous story development and have been mostly background actors when utilized.
    As is the case with the majority of all playable races. If you're trying to assert that HE's aren't reeaalllly permanent fixtures within the narrative, on the basis that they play second fiddle at all times, then you're also suggesting the same thing of any playable race that isn't Human, Orc, Night Elf, Blood Elf. Codswallop, m'boy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Cultural divergence is a bold claim to make, when there is no evidence to support it. When they constructed the Silver Covenant, Veressa styled herself as 'Ranger-General', clearly aping the leader of the Farstriders organization the Silver Covenant itself apes. The few High Elf Mages still style themselves as Magisters. When they construct a building, it is Silvermoon architecture they employ albeit coloured blue. Alliance High Elf pilgrims visited the Sunwell after it's restoration and while there is no evidence the Alliance High Elves worship the light to the same degree the Blood Elves are beginning to, the Alliance High Elves are still as dependent on the Holy/Arcane energy source and are subject to the same changes the Blood Elves are whether spiritual or biological. The Sunwell does not discriminate on the grounds of political opinion.
    I'm not necessarily going to throw my weight being the idea, but as I mentioned in the previous post, the HE's fascination with traditional terminology can be reasonably understood as a desperate attempt at regaining some semblance of an ancestral identity. The cultural distinctions aren't terminologically-based, but sociologically-based; their behaviors and mannerisms are quite divergent, especially in alternative media.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That summation misses the point. Void Elves are acceptable, and only barely so, because the nature of their differentiation is something unachieveable by an existing Blood/High Elf whilst still remaining a Blood/High ELF. To become a Void Elf means to sacrifice everything that defines the Blood/High Elves and become something else. There is clear purple water between the two groups, an unbridgeable physical divide. Conversely, Alliance High Elves cannot be physically differentiated because there is nothing they can do that is not also available to the Blood Elves.
    Yes, I agree. In fact, I'll likely agree with almost everything that has to do with concerns that the BE-playerbase might have regarding the visual aspects of implementing playable HE's -- which is to say, I'm a proponent of playable HE's requiring an extreme makeover.

    Note: In the physical sense, Void Elves were a smashing success (though, I might've hoped for a little morphological manipulation of their models, like Nightborne). A huge issue with VE's, with regard to appeasing people who wanted playable HE's, is that they literally aren't High Elves; and I'm not begrudging that they're not pink-skinned and/or blonde, but that literally zero Void Elves were formerly High Elves.

    [QUOTE=Obelisk Kai;50485185]I have levelled several Alliance characters over the years and I currently maintain a level 120 Draenei Shaman as my Alliance side toon. I have encountered the High Elves as well, and each encounter has stood out due to their rarity. Humble is not the word I would use to describe them because I didn't find them much different from the majority of Blood Elf quest givers I interacted with. Sure, there are arrogant Blood Elves, but there have also been stupid, arrogant Alliance High Elves.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Death-Hunter_Hawkspear[QUOTE=Obelisk Kai;50485185]

    Renthar Hawkspear wasn't ever a part of the Alliance in the period we're talking about. That said, I'd grant you that Vereesa is pretty flamboyantly arrogant, but this seems to be an isolated Windrunner-related mannerism moreso than a reflection of the whole sub-faction (the same way most Dark Rangers seem to be cool and collected, while Sylvanas literally can't handle the truth).

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    They are not aggressively defensive of their fellow member states. That implies they are a state of equal worth within the Alliance. They are not.
    It is fair to say that they don't constitute a member-state, as they claim no lands and have formulated no government; that said, they certainly represent a member-constituency within the Alliance and from that position, they aggressively tackle conflicts on behalf of their neighbors. This isn't debatable, it's literally the reason why we see High Elf NPC's all the time, because they're always showing up to prove they're not fair-weather allies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The Alliance High Elves are an exiled expatriate community of, and I say this next word without emotion because it is true, traitors to Silvermoon. They are aggressively defending their new homes because they have nowhere else to go, which is not a trait I would ascribe as being unique to them. Anyone in a similar situation would react similarly.
    I'm curious which specific actions you believe qualifies as being treasonous?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    And if we are talking gameplay mechanics, the reason the High Elves showed up on the door step of Zul Aman was to give Alliance players an 'in' to the new dungeon back in Cataclysm. Nothing came of that moment. No High Elf participation in the dungeon, no further strife between Halduron and Lor'themar, no follow up. There was no reconciliation either. In fact, given the glee with which they butchered the Blood Elf population of Dalaran during the purge and murdered civilians I figure they are a lot more bitter towards Quel'thalas than you may care to admit.
    As to the last point, I have no trouble agreeing to that. If we actually look at both what the HE's do and say, instead of just one or the other, it's clear that what they mean when they say stuff like "Quel'thalas will be Alliance, someday", they're imagining it without any of the Blood Elves present.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The Dalaran Mages prioritised Dalaran over their homeland. The Farstriders likely fought beside the Alliance in the Second War, and some of those at the time openly disagreed with Anasterian's isolationism. The next line is my own supposition, but their objection to consuming mana was therefore likely rooted in the knowledge that their Alliance comrades would be disgusted by such a naked manifestation of their addiction, shorn of the majesty and mystique that the Sunwell provided.
    Well, supposition or not, it seems reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Yet the Silver Covenant is overwhelmingly a Hunter organization, to the point they were part of the coalition assembled in the Hunter class hall.
    Right. As I mention earlier in this posting, the scenario(s) in my previous post were just me trying to create a rationalization for the HE's in-game circumstances (as they currently exist). It's sort of hard to rationalize anything as it relates to Hunters, as a class, because enormous portions of their thematic were ass-pulled for World of Warcraft (specifically, pets, traps, and animal-based abilities).

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The Highborne are no longer a pillar of Night Elven civilization. They live on the fringes, although they won a measure of respect for their work and sacrifices during the evacuation of Teldrassil. The pillars of Night Elven Society are the Sentinels (Warriors and Hunters), the sisterhood of Elune (Priests) and the Druids. The Farstriders however remain a pillar of Blood Elven civilization.
    I think we're thinking about these things differently. I agree with you in the narrative sense, but when we're talking about how BE's are adversely affected by the implementation of HE's, the point(s) of contention are almost always visually- or thematically-oriented; which is to say that while we can agree that the game informs us that Farstriders exist, and that they're skilled combatants, it doesn't show this (and hasn't, for a long time).

    Thus, when we're discussing just how impacting a singular visually- or thematically-based aspect is, relative to the plurality of visually- or thematically-based aspects that make up the complete package, the fact that a particular aspect hasn't been depicted in any real capacity for 10+ years of real-time is fairly important to make note of. You can't really lose something, today, that was stolen 10+ years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    It is hard to take seriously the complaints of others (not you) who say the Farstriders are under-represented when the Blood Elf faction leader is a Farstrider. As a point of comparison, it would be akin to saying in WOLTK that shamans aren't important to Orcs, despite Thrall being a Shaman, because the warrior Garrosh was getting more screen time in Northrend.
    You're talking about representation as it relates to the faction leaders, and champions, whereas I'm talking about overall NPC representation. I don't think you can go to virtually any major quest hub where there are a decent collection of Orgrimmar Orcs and not find at least 1-2 Shaman NPC's; conversely, pretty much every congregation of BE's is comprised of Paladins and Mages, with a smattering of related things like Priests or Warlocks. I just finished my slow-play of BfA on my Blood Elf DH (#TruestPurpleClass), and quite honestly I can't recall ever seeing a noteworthy or named Farstrider.

    I don't play as anything that could be construed as being related to a Farstrider (Warrior, Hunter, Rogue), so I don't really have any vested interest in seeing either the BE's or HE's take exclusive control over this thematic; I'm just positing that as of this moment, Farstriders are absolutely the weakest element of the BE's narrative and have seen less screentime than even NE's Sentinels or even Wardens (which is crazy, considering the latter is a non-playable flavor class/organization) and that it going away probably wouldn't really adversely affect anything.

    As an aside, an image of Lor'themar as a Ranger-Paladin just shot through my head and I was pleased. :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The last notable feat preformed by the Farstriders as a group was joining the Hunter class hall. Which is the same last notable feat performed by the Silver Covenant. I agree that it was a small gesture and mostly unworthy of comment...but if it is so unworthy for the Farstriders that you've forgotten it then it is clearly as unworthy of comment for the Silver Covenant.
    But... I didn't mention it as a comment for the Silver Covenant. Because, as you said, it is unworthy of comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Yes, but enough survived that Lor'themar had the basis for a working military and like all parts of Blood Elven society, they are rebuilding.
    Well, sure.

    If it were entirely up to me, this entire discussion would disappear following Battle for Azeroth, as I'd completely remove the factions are a barrier to progressing the story. I would be immensely pleased with a situation whereby all of the various types of Thalassian are repatriated into the Kingdom of Quel'thalas and their internal political squabbles play out in a more localized way.

    It's easy for me to imagine a Silvermoon City and Quel'danas wherein the bulk of the area is inhabited by the Blood Elves; a buffer area is inhabited by the High Elves; and an external (i.e. newly created) area is held by the Void Elves.

    A single kingdom.
    A single government.
    A handful of ideologies, utilizing different means to achieve the same ends.

  15. #7895
    Titan Zulkhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    High Elves have no lore? Could you provide more context? Because just saying High Elves have no lore is just patently wrong.
    They have none. Or at least, none that uniquely belongs to them. All they have is a weak reflection of Blood Elf lore and as Blood Elf foil they exclusively served until now. In fact not even that, since it's Dalaran that mostly served as Blood Elf foil while High Elves were merely given exposure with a lot of NPCs but no development whatsoever. Again, Vereesa is the one and only character who ever got anything and she's a pretty much useless character anyway. And if the concept isn't clear enough, exposure =/= lore. Blood Elves got both, High Elves just the first. But that's more than enough for all the people who dream playable Alliance High Elves wide awake.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keyblader View Post
    It's a general rule though that if you play horde you are a bad person irl. It's just a scientific fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    The game didn't give me any good reason to hate the horde. Forums did that.

  16. #7896
    Quote Originally Posted by bowlink View Post
    At this point i want blizzard to stop placing high elf npcs in the alliance ranks. If you need a caster npc in the alliance ranks. A human or gnome will suffice.
    Actually it wouldn't. Blizzard likes to use stereotypes for these kind of NPCs. The Alliance doesn't have a stereotypical arcane magic/mage race other than High Elves.

    Stormwind humans are light oriented warriors, dwarves are typically miners/rifleman/hunters, gnomes are engineers, Void Elves are void oriented and an elite-squad, Worgen are werewolves, Lightforged&Draenei are light worshipping alien demons and Night-Elves are nature oriented wood-elves.

    Although all can be mages none is really a typical caster race like the High/Blood-Elves or Nighborne.

  17. #7897
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    They have none. Or at least, none that uniquely belongs to them. All they have is a weak reflection of Blood Elf lore and as Blood Elf foil they exclusively served until now. In fact not even that, since it's Dalaran that mostly served as Blood Elf foil while High Elves were merely given exposure with a lot of NPCs but no development whatsoever. Again, Vereesa is the one and only character who ever got anything and she's a pretty much useless character anyway. And if the concept isn't clear enough, exposure =/= lore. Blood Elves got both, High Elves just the first. But that's more than enough for all the people who dream playable Alliance High Elves wide awake.
    http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/High_elf

    You're delusional.

    High Elf lore IS Blood Elf lore, they're the same thing. Blood Elves have only been a thing for maybe ~20 years in the WoW universe? Everything before that, the thousands and thousands of years of history all belongs to the High Elves.

    This is why Blizzard has stated that High Elves are already in game, in the form of Blood Elves, because they are the same thing. They are literally the same people. All adult Blood Elves now were once known as High Elves.

    The folks asking for High Elves on the Alliance side are asking for that tiny fraction of the High Elven population that were not part of Quel'thalas and had broken away from Kael'thas Sunstrider prior to them changing their name to Blood Elf. One of the reasons given why they couldn't be added as a viable Allied Race was because the population of Alliance aligned High Elves was extremely small so having a large number of players playing them wouldn't fit that narrative. It makes sense, lore wise, I just don't see Blizzard sticking to that narrative since BfA with entire new High Elf regiments and NPC's.

  18. #7898
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/High_elf

    High Elf lore IS Blood Elf lore, they're the same thing. Blood Elves have only been a thing for maybe ~20 years in the WoW universe? Everything before that, the thousands and thousands of years of history all belongs to the High Elves.
    This would be one of the major reasons that make Helfs a bad idea.

  19. #7899
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    This would be one of the major reasons that make Helfs a bad idea.
    I don't see anything wrong with the idea, per se, except that having them as an Allied Race just wouldn't fit well with their history/ narrative. They, lore wise, have so few numbers that they aren't viable as a stand alone race anymore. They don't have enough "pure" high elves or any kind of centralized population/ large enough group of High Elves living together to procreate and further the High Elven race.

    Now if Blizzard were to concede a little bit and create Half Elves, which are the offspring of Alliance aligned High Elves and Humans, that happened to have similar aesthetics to High Elves, like Arathor the child of Alleria and Turalyon, I'd have no problem with that at all from a lore perspective.

    The only reason/excuse to fall back on in that instance would be what Blizzard has stated up to this point so far, and that is they don't want to tread over the identity/ aesthetics of an already established Horde race in the Blood Elves. I personally find this argument to be stupidly shallow considering Pandaren already exist on both sides and a Void Elf and Blood Elf in the same gear look almost identical with the only difference being their racial abilities which could easily be created for Half Elves or even High Elves if they wanted to go that route to establish a sense of racial identity and theme.

    That said, since the introduction of Void Elves I just don't see Blizzard giving the Alliance another race that's functionally identical to two other races in the game already. Players wanted a Thalassian elf on the Alliance and they got one, they're just not happy with the paint job, which is fair criticism, but I don't see it changing.

  20. #7900
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    Should have posted the most relevant information: "What became of Devi in the main universe is unclear, as she is seen only in the alternate timeline."

    WoD was bad enough.
    The playable Mag'har are from an alternate timeline so unironically it's fair game. Still canon btw, it's not like Blizzard deemed it not canon as they have with past characters like that one high elf/half elf swordswoman from a book. Can't remember her name.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboozler View Post
    Hell, they even laid out very logical reasons as to why the Alliance has not, and most likely will not, ever see a fair-skinned, Thalassian-style Elf on their faction.
    Sounds like you haven't heard the most recent word on the High Elf feeling in regards to the Alliance

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...layers-DLC-654

    "Allied Races

    There is no pattern to creating an Allied Race. They want races that are cool and contextually important.

    With that said, Allied Races need to have animation rigs, which is a limitation to some degree, but as with the case of Kul Tiran Humans, new animation rigs can be altered and created.

    Alex believes that Kul Tirans should be able to be mages, and says the team will discuss it further. He can't promise that it will happen, however.

    There is a chance that new customization options could be added to the Void Elves to fill the High Elf fantasy.

    There is a chance that there might be changes to the acquisition of Heritage Armor in the future."

    So truly it the most recent comment is now that maybe Alliance can get some form of High Elf fantasy (through Void Elves) that's why it's pretty stupid at this point for anyone to say "Shut up and play Horde, the Blood Elves are the High Elves there waiting for you" or any form of that.

    As saying anything along those lines shows actual ignorance of the possibility that has been put forth by Blizzard and their encouragement to not stop the conversation.

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