Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Friendlyimmolation]

You say im wrong. I say you are wrong. It wont take us far with these kind of arguments.

Chronicles 3 dont speak about the sunwell reaching to all quelthalas elves.

The Sunwell's power has no physical limits or boundaries. An elf bound to its energies would be so no matter how far away they went from it.[7] Its energies are available to be drawn upon from anywhere in the cosmos[22] and even alternate realities as evidenced by the Sunsworn forces on the alternate Draenor.
a b c d e Blood of the Highborne
Christopher Davis on Twitter (2014-02-04)
BlizzCon 2016: @16m55s Q&A, RE: The Sunwell/Blood Elf paladins

You're wrong, lore outright says you're wrong. There is nothing else to discuss here, no "he said she said"

[RangerDaz]

The Sunwell's power has no physical limits or boundaries. An elf bound to its energies would be so no matter how far away they went from it.[7] Its energies are available to be drawn upon from anywhere in the cosmos[22] and even alternate realities as evidenced by the Sunsworn forces on the alternate Draenor.
a b c d e Blood of the Highborne
Christopher Davis on Twitter (2014-02-04)

That was before chronicles 3, which retconned entire warcraft 3 and wow. At that time there were no Void elves as well. And the silver covenant elves dont have golden eyes as well. The golden eyes also came after the lore you quoted. Blizzard people change their minds all the time.

[Garfurion]

This would also directly allow for playable High Elves, via their narrative suggesting they reconcile with Quel'thalas. Thus making Blood Elves, Void Elves, and High Elves a related cluster of narratives (instead of red versus blue).

Any changes to the faction system would affect old content though and I don't see them redo all the old zones/expansions. Removing the Horde&Alliance also would remove some story potential which would have to be replaced by something else, perhaps factions you choose but that would basically make every race a neutral race which would make the Pandaren current faction choice useless.

[Friendlyimmolation]

That was before chronicles 3, which retconned entire warcraft 3 and wow. At that time there were no Void elves as well. And the silver covenant elves dont have golden eyes as well. The golden eyes also came after the lore you quoted. Blizzard people change their minds all the time.

Canon isn't reconnected until specifically retconed. You're acting willfully and deliberately ignorant of a difference between game and story.

Also hilarious, saying writers can change their mind doesn't make your incorrect point correct.

[RangerDaz]

Canon isn't reconnected until specifically retconed. You're acting willfully and deliberately ignorant of a difference between game and story.

Also hilarious, saying writers can change their mind doesn't make your incorrect point correct.

What??? And you call Chronicles 3, void elves and blood elves' exclusive golden eyes what? It is blizzards story. They do with it what they want.

[Friendlyimmolation]

What??? And you call Chronicles 3, void elves and blood elves' exclusive golden eyes what? It is blizzards story. They do with it what they want.

Void elves obviously are not connected to the sunwell anymore considering the void that courses through them and what we know happens when void and light collide.

High elves threw a shit fit over mana wyrms and ran away, that doesn't magically make the Sunwell stop feeding them. Again, you shouting "Blizzards story" doesn't retcon parts of the story you don't like.

Nothing in chronicle three shows that the high elves would have been cutoff from the restored sunwell.

For the same reason the high elves in Allerian stronghold don't have green eyes, is the same reason you don't see high elves walking around with gold ones. And again, saying that Blizzard can do what they want, while true, does nothing for your argument, nor does it make your repeated attempts to say the Sunwell information was retconned a fact.

[Aucald]

That was before chronicles 3, which retconned entire warcraft 3 and wow. At that time there were no Void elves as well. And the silver covenant elves dont have golden eyes as well. The golden eyes also came after the lore you quoted. Blizzard people change their minds all the time.

The story "In the Shadow of the Sun" explicitly confirms that the High Elves of Quel'Lithien Lodge were connected to the restored Sunwell, Aurora Skycaller specifically remarks on the presence of Light energies in the Sunwell's nourishing force and her own familiarity with it (as she's a Priestess). The same is presumably true for all the High Elves.

[RangerDaz]

Void elves obviously are not connected to the sunwell anymore considering the void that courses through them and what we know happens when void and light collide.

High elves threw a shit fit over mana wyrms and ran away, that doesn't magically make the Sunwell stop feeding them. Again, you shouting "Blizzards story" doesn't retcon parts of the story you don't like.

Nothing in chronicle three shows that the high elves would have been cutoff from the restored sunwell.

For the same reason the high elves in Allerian stronghold don't have green eyes, is the same reason you don't see high elves walking around with gold ones. And again, saying that Blizzard can do what they want, while true, does nothing for your argument, nor does it make your repeated attempts to say the Sunwell information was retconned a fact.

This discussion wont reach a conclusion because you simply dont want to consider my arguments valid, while im trying to explain to you that the lore you refer to has suffered changes, as it is seen how silver covenant, blood elves and void elves are shown ingame today. The holy energies of the sunwell only change the blood elves , no one else. If you dont consider that relevant, especially as chronicles 3 dont state that the sunwell still influences the elves living outside Quelthalas (like the silver covenant and the dalaran elves) i dont know what else to say to you.

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The story "In the Shadow of the Sun" explicitly confirms that the High Elves of Quel'Lithien Lodge were connected to the restored Sunwell, Aurora Skycaller specifically remarks on the presence of Light energies in the Sunwell's nourishing force and her own familiarity with it (as she's a Priestess).

I'm not saying that this kind of lore doesnt exist, just like the quotes presented above. It is just that in every expansion, blizzard retcons many previous existing lore to continue their story, and BfA surely isnt an exception.

Im not sure when the story you mention was written, or if blizzard considers it canon. For example Blizzard no longer considers Medan's book canon. And what about Blizzard wanting that blood elves, the Sindorei, get exclusive golden eyes? And they clearly made a difference between the Queldorei and the Sindorei in the invasion of suramar chain. So Blizzard clearly makes a difference between the Silver Covenant and the Blood elves.

There are many lore contradictions in wow, and clearly the history of the descendants of the High elves after Arthas invasion have many questions to be answered.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Well Afrasiabi was asked if we could see a third faction someday and he said he'd prefer it went into the other direction of one faction instead of splitting up friends/family even more. He said the main idea is that Azeroth is everyone's home and battles should be fought for that purpose, to protect it together.

https://blizzardwatch.com/2018/11/04...hree-factions/

"Three factions…or one?

Since Afrasiabi brought up the Saurfang vs. Sylvanas option, Mitch pressed him about the idea of splitting the Horde into separate factions for each camp. While the idea would be 'thematically cool and appropriate for this scenario,' Afrasiabi explained that creating a third faction would really mean splitting up friendships and guilds since factions cannot adventure together. His preference would be the other way: that the Alliance and Horde could group together 'one of these days.'

'That is the bigger meta lesson of Azeroth,' he concluded, 'that these battles that we fought, even when we are separated, are for the same damn purpose. For our home.'"

So it's cool to know that that would be the more preferable option.

IMO yeah, I agree! Rather than a third faction I think the option of playing the game on an "independent" way, and what I like about that it opens the way for a lot of more interesting possibilities while not adversely affecting the gameplay in a way a third faction would.

And IMO, if we could "group up" for a greater good, maybe we also could for something not so nice, so if Sylvanas gets to live, it would be kinda fun so can still follow her storywise, even if mechanically our characters would be Horde or Alliance, or neither.

[protip]

This discussion wont reach a conclusion because you simply dont want to consider my arguments valid, while im trying to explain to you that the lore you refer to has suffered changes, as it is seen how silver covenant, blood elves and void elves are shown ingame today. The holy energies of the sunwell only change the blood elves , no one else. If you dont consider that relevant, especially as chronicles 3 dont state that the sunwell still influences the elves living outside Quelthalas (like the silver covenant and the dalaran elves) i dont know what else to say to you.

I'm not saying that this kind of lore exists, just like the quotes presented above. It is just that in every expansion, blizzard retcons many previous existing lore to continue their story, and BfA surely isnt an exception.

Im not sure when the story you mention was written, or if blizzard considers it canon. For example Blizzard no longer considers Medan's book canon. And what about Blizzard wanting that blood elves, the Sindorei, get exclusive golden eyes? And they clearly made a difference between the Queldorei and the Sindorei in the invasion of suramar chain. So Blizzard clearly makes a difference between the Silver Covenant and the Blood elves.

There are many lore contradictions in wow, and clearly the history of the descendants of the High elves before the Arthas invasion have many questions to be answered.

There's another clear problem with this idea. If the energies of the Sunwell didn't reach all of the high elves as the lore describes, why did they destroy it when it was corrupted? If they didn't have some kind of connection, surely either everything in Quel'Thalas would be affected, or they could have simply not used it. The lore is incompatible with what you suggest, in more than just small ways.

[Aucald]

I'm not saying that this kind of lore exists, just like the quotes presented above. It is just that in every expansion, blizzard retcons many previous existing lore to continue their story, and BfA surely isnt an exception.

Im not sure when the story you mention was written, or if blizzard considers it canon. For example Blizzard no longer considers Medan's book canon. And what about Blizzard wanting that blood elves, the Sindorei, get exclusive golden eyes? And they clearly made a difference between the Queldorei and the Sindorei in the invasion of suramar chain. So Blizzard clearly makes a difference between the Silver Covenant and the Blood elves.

There are many lore contradictions in wow, and clearly the history of the descendants of the High elves before the Arthas invasion have many questions to be answered.

I don't think this particular point of lore has been contradicted in any positive or confirmable fashion, though. Med'an, for example. goes completely unmentioned in the "Chronicle" series - this doesn't retcon him from existence, though; nowhere does "Chronicle Vol. 2" or "Chronicle Vol. 3" state that Garona was childless or that the things done by Med'an were instead done by someone else ("Chronicle Vol. 3" actually weaves around Med'an's portion of the story without mention at all). As I see it, the writers have no interest in further exploring or mentioning Med'an (likely due to his unpopularity) but he still unfortunately exists.

I agree there are many contradictions, though; I just don't think this is one of them. We don't know if the golden coloration of the Blood Elves' eyes is going to unique to them or if it can or will be shared with their High Elven cousins. Considered there's a handful of Blood Elves with glowing blue eyes, it's likely there will eventually be a few High Elves with the golden coloration.

[Kithelle]

snip

Save yourself some time friend, he isn't worth it. You can't beat his head canon and even when you provide sources that disprove it he will still quote the same old things that were invalid over and over even if you provide him with more up to date evidence to the contrary.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I clearly stated to you a while ago, in response to you that I did not know if the Helfs are happening or not happening, I told you specifically that my guess would be they are not, that is an OPINION. During this discussion nonetheless. So how the fuck would I be stating an opposite of what I just stated? Cut the mental gymnastics.

You keep insisting I'm arguing for something I am not and you keep going back to that, so here's more hypocrisy from a guy who accused me of strawmanning as a preemptive measure a few pages back... during the same discussion.

Even the person whose post you replied to, the same post that got me to address you, was saying that high elves are currently not plausible given the state of things, the same person you proceeded to accuse of just wanting to be right, the same person who pointed out that you dismissed arguments, statements or opinions that didn't align with your agenda and he was RIGHT.

I am done with your crap. Act shocked and pretend you don't understand as much as you want. At this point you are not fooling anyone.

Considering that in every response I have made I have pointed out that your posture is "High Elves are not going to happen" that you just brought it up really shows you really have problems understanding what other people are saying lol. Read, absorb, then respond.

And again because you forgot, with that person we were talking about specifically the background of the SC, so again the swerve about "Well High elves aren't happening" had nothing to do with the discussion we were having, and apparently that got you so mad -that I was not about start talking the tangent about how HE aren't going to happen- that you started with this whole meltdown.

Seriously, if you want to talk about High Elves not happening, do it with someone else! You keep whining as if I am forcing you to talk with me, there are plenty of other people in this thread I am sure would be thrilled to talk with you about what you want to talk. Because I already told you that I am not personally interested in talking about if "should HE be playable" cause for the nth time that's irrelevant to what I am here to discuss, which is why I would like High Elves to be playable.

So if you are done with your tantrum can we move along?

[RangerDaz]

There's another clear problem with this idea. If the energies of the Sunwell didn't reach all of the high elves as the lore describes, why did they destroy it when it was corrupted? If they didn't have some kind of connection, surely either everything in Quel'Thalas would be affected, or they could have simply not used it. The lore is incompatible with what you suggest, in more than just small ways.

Im not sure what you want to say here... I believe they destroyed the corrupted sunwell to prevent the corruption from spreading, but the sunwell ended up surviving in an uncorrupted avatar guarded by Kalegos. While the sunwell was gone, the elves survived without it. That was probably how the silver covenant has survived without the sunwell and havent changed by it since it was infused with holy energies.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I dont think there is a switch to be connected to the sunwell. The answer is much more simple: Blood Elves aka the Sindorei use the Sunwell's energies, while the remaining Quelthalas elves dont.

Yeah but the rest of the High Elves are still connected to the Sunwell, as per Shadow of the Sun. IMO the question is why Blood Elves are getting golden eyes and High Elves aren't.

Is it an issue about actively drawing energy from the Sunwell rather than passively? Is it about proximity? Is it just they haven't bothered to give HE golden eyes?

As long as it is unconfirmed, it's fun to speculate.

[protip]

Im not sure what you want to say here... I believe they destroyed the corrupted sunwell to prevent the corruption from spreading, but the sunwell ended up surviving in an uncorrupted avatar guarded by Kalegos. While the sunwell was gone, the elves survived without it. That was probably how the silver covenant has survived without the sunwell and havent changed by it since it was infused with holy energies.

In Chronicles 3 it is stated that they destroyed the Sunwell because the decay was affecting the high elves directly.

[RangerDaz]

I don't think this particular point of lore has been contradicted in any positive or confirmable fashion, though. Med'an, for example. goes completely unmentioned in the "Chronicle" series - this doesn't retcon him from existence, though; nowhere does "Chronicle Vol. 2" or "Chronicle Vol. 3" state that Garona was childless or that the things done by Med'an were instead done by someone else ("Chronicle Vol. 3" actually weaves around Med'an's portion of the story without mention at all). As I see it, the writers have no interest in further exploring or mentioning Med'an (likely due to his unpopularity) but he still unfortunately exists.

I agree there are many contradictions, though; I just don't think this is one of them. We don't know if the golden coloration of the Blood Elves' eyes is going to unique to them or if it can or will be shared with their High Elven cousins. Considered there's a handful of Blood Elves with glowing blue eyes, it's likely there will eventually be a few High Elves with the golden coloration.

Well there is one thing we cant forget : for the better and for the worse, warcraft's Lore is tied up to gameplay, and many of the Lore's restrictions come from gameplay decisions. Having said that, we clearly see that it is a gameplay decision that the colors of the playable Blood elf eyes and the Npcs from Silvermoon have exclusively fel green or golden eyes, something no other group of quelthalas elves have.

The glowing blue eyes and sometimes green (not FEL green) belong to the elves who are Queldorei (as said in the suramar liberation quest) and not Sindorei (blood elves) or Rendorei (void elves). So for me Blizzard clearly splits Sindorei and Queldorei ingame and shows their differences.

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In Chronicles 3 it is stated that they destroyed the Sunwell because the decay was affecting the high elves directly.

Of course, just like the holy sunwell is affecting the silvermoon elves. It isnt contradicting my arguments.

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Save yourself some time friend, he isn't worth it. You can't beat his head canon and even when you provide sources that disprove it he will still quote the same old things that were invalid over and over even if you provide him with more up to date evidence to the contrary.

Thanks im just trying to show that Alliance High Elves are a valid option for an allied race and can be implemented in a different way than the current existing blood and void elves. And have lore and history for them.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Save yourself some time friend, he isn't worth it. You can't beat his head canon and even when you provide sources that disprove it he will still quote the same old things that were invalid over and over even if you provide him with more up to date evidence to the contrary.

Once more you charge in declaring I don't know what I'm talking about while making it blatantly obvious you are incapable of following canon lore when it goes against your high elf fantasies. You are the thing you accuse me of being.

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Thanks im just trying to show that Alliance High Elves are a valid option for an allied race and can be implemented in a different way than the current existing blood and void elves.

Yea, lore be damned, it's what you want to be true that counts.

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Im not sure what you want to say here... I believe they destroyed the corrupted sunwell to prevent the corruption from spreading, but the sunwell ended up surviving in an uncorrupted avatar guarded by Kalegos. While the sunwell was gone, the elves survived without it. That was probably how the silver covenant has survived without the sunwell and havent changed by it since it was infused with holy energies.

And once more, not how the sunwell works, surviving without it doesn't mean it's not going to effect you when it comes back. All of this just in a vain effort to make high elves different. Kinda sad.

[RangerDaz]

Once more you charge in declaring I don't know what I'm talking about while making it blatantly obvious you are incapable of following canon lore when it goes against your high elf fantasies. You are the thing you accuse me of being.

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Yea, lore be damned, it's what you want to be true that counts.

Couldnt the same be said about you? ...

[Friendlyimmolation]

Couldnt the same be said about you? ...

I'm not the one trying to say lore doesn't matter guy. Nor am I incorrectly shouting out "noncanon chronicle 3!" when Chronicle 3 does nothing to change what has been stated about the Sunwell. Nor am I trying to justify the stories ability to change as justification for why I hold my opinion equal to what is currently canon.


Nor am I the one actively trying to come up false reasons high elves are different in an effort to say one race is actually two. Of all the hills to die on, you picked a poor one.