1. #7941
    Quote Originally Posted by Zulkhan View Post
    It's funny how you stated the main issue yourself without realizing it, because that's exactly the entire point of the problem: the current High Elves are a tiny faction of people bearing nothing that makes them unique compared to Blood Elves. All their "lore" is Blood Elf lore now, not the other way around.



    "Everything before that" is irrelevant now, the present is what matters. And the present says that Blood Elves are the ones who inhereted the pre-WC3 High Elf heritage, which is proved by little facts like them being the actual playable race and holding Quel'Thalas to begin with; the current "High Elves" are a mere bunch of exiles who simply don't like to be called Blood Elves, for all a moltitude of reasons. Again, they're a weak reflection of an already playable race, with nothing making them different or unique compared to the Thalassians in Quel'Thalas.



    The folks asking for High Elves have no idea of what they're talking about, nor they seem to really understand what they want. For instance, what you said is factually untrue: the High Elves we see in the Alliance aren't the ones we saw in WC3 but the ones who got exiled after Rommath came back from the Outland and started to spread his new mana siphoning teachings.



    Yes, and the other is High Elves being literally Blood Elves, as you had the mindfulness to recognize.



    It's easy to be truthful when you state the obvious. Thinking to dismiss my point like that is ludicrous.
    So...you're saying that because they call themselves Blood Elves now, history has erased the term High Elf and there is no such thing as High Elf History? You know how history works right?

  2. #7942
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The Silver Covenant has not had three thousand years of cohabitation with Humanity though. They were recently formed by Veressa in Dalaran, and they located in Dalaran because her husband was the leader of the Kirin Tor. The vast majority of SC members are Farstriders, who led mostly solitary lives on the outskirts of Quel'thalas battling their enemies.

    The High Elf Mages of Dalaran were the only ones who maintained a three thousand year relationship with humanity, and most of them returned to Quel'thalas folliowing it's destruction and then returned to Dalaran as the Sunreavers, which is supported by Jaina recognizing the Sunreavers as the Elves who taught Humanity magic.

    A few High Elves from Dalaran accompanied Jaina to Theramore and likely died in the bombing, and a very few High Elf Magi remained with Dalaran and later joined the Silver Covenant.

    I bring this up to emphasise that there has not been a long standing community of expatriate High Elves that could form the nucleus of a differentiated High Elf race. Most of the Dalarani Elves became the Sunreavers.

    On the topic of darker skin tones for the Blood Elves, I would like to see them but I personally doubt it's going to happen.
    This is absurdly reaching

    I would like a source stating that somehow the majority SC elves are now blood elves, also I would like a source stating that a all the dalaran high elves died in Theramore as well as Dalaran high elves joining the sunreavers lmao.

    Also current Dalaran only has human and high elf guard npcs.

  3. #7943
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    And why, if brown skinned elves exist, were they all exiled? Why didn't some of the brown skinned elves say, 'You know, I would rather stay here and serve my Prince?'

    Why wouldn't we have brown skinned Blood Elves?

    I have no objection to darker skin tones for thalassian elves, but as an idea for differentiation with the Blood Elves they come with a lot of unpleasant connotations. If those skin tones are provided, there is an absolutely no reason why they would not be an option for Blood Elves too.
    What's with all the greed? Why should we be giving all of these new options to Blood Elves? Brown skin, new hair colors and styles, blue eyes with pupils, ear styles, tattoos, new class options, ect. They already got new eye colors without wasting an allied race spot, but the other parent races have to have separate off shoots in order to get new customizations. You want an Orc with brown skin and tattoos? You have to play Maghar. You want a Draenai with gold eyes and gold tattoos? You have to play Lightforged. What "negative connotations?" The orcs who are the same species, are separated by skin color. One fraction has brown skin, the other has green skin.

    Why the hell should Blood Elves get everything? That's so goddamn infuriating.
    Last edited by Alixie; 2018-11-16 at 09:32 AM.

  4. #7944
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    This is absurdly reaching

    I would like a source stating that somehow the majority SC elves are now blood elves.
    Just to clarify, I have never said that the SC elves are now Blood Elves. I said that the majority of the Elves who escaped Dalaran became Blood Elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    also I would like a source stating that a all the dalaran high elves died in Theramore
    If I imply all died, that was incorrect. It is recorded in Warcraft Chronicles Volume 3 that the population of Dalaran was evacuated. It is also recorded that some High Elves accompanied Jaina across the sea to Theramore and settled there with her. It is very important not to assume every High Elf who was evacuated from Dalaran went with Jaina. Some clearly went home and became Blood Elves, as that is where the Sunreavers came from and some stayed around Dalaran and helped rebuild the city.
    As for Theramore the High Elf population is confirmed to be extremely low, so any loss of life is catastrophic. Unless a special case was made for their evacuation along with the civilians prior to the assault on the city, they would have been present when the bomb was dropped. There were very likely High Elf casualties in Theramore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    as well as Dalaran high elves joining the sunreavers lmao.
    Nor did I say all, some Dalaran High Elves clearly remained with the city and prioritised their loyalty to Dalaran over their own homeland. However, the Sunreavers are the Elves who lived in Dalaran for thousands of years alongside humanity. Jaina explicitly recognised the Sunreavers as the Elves who taught Humanity magic. And the dialogue during the purge shows that they've lived in Dalaran for a very long time and consider it their home, a place they have as much a right to be as anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grythletubs View Post
    Also current Dalaran only has human and high elf guard npcs.
    Yes. A few High Elf Magisters remained with Dalaran. After Dalaran was rebuilt, Veressa established the Silver Covenant. This attracted the scattered High Elves and concentrated them in the city. These High Elves are primarily former Farstriders, members of Quel'thalas' military. We can see this by looking at the Silver Covenant NPCs themselves, particularly outside Zul'Aman and on the Isle of Thunder. Most High Elves who lived in Dalaran were Mages, that was the entire point. Most Silver Covenant members are not Mages. They are relatively new to the city compared to the High Elf Magisters and the Sunreavers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    What's with all the greed? Why should we be giving all of these new options to Blood Elves? Brown skin, new hair colors and styles, blue eyes with pupils, ear styles, tattoos, new class options, ect. They already got new eye colors without wasting an allied race spot, but the other parent races have to have separate off shoots in order to get new customizations. You want an Orc with brown skin and tattoos? You have to play Maghar. You want a Draenai with gold eyes and gold tattoos? You have to play Lightforged.

    Why the hell should Blood Elves get everything? That's so goddamn infuriating.
    The source of these requests is an attempt to differentiate High Elves from Blood Elves. But you cannot differentiate High Elves from Blood Elves because Blood Elves are High Elves. The divergence between the two groups is political and only occured in game twelve or eleven years ago. As they are the same people, they share an identical culture. It is not possible to justify High Elves have darker skin tones, and Blood Elves not having those tones, without implying all the darker skinned elves were kicked out of Quel'thalas. If High Elves had darker skin tones, then Blood Elves would have darker skin tones, because they are the same people.
    The only extra customization I would like for Blood Elves is a blue eyes option though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    That the fast majority of the Silver Covenant are Farstriders is a headcanon of yours, Obelisk. You have no confirmation of this.
    Silver Covenant NPCs have tended to use bows or stealth. Most Dalaran High Elves were Mages. It's a city of Mages. That was the entire point. Silver Covenant High Elves are part of an organisation that is patterned after the Farstriders, with the leader styling herself as Ranger-General, rather than Magisters. During Legion they joined the Hunter class hall and not the Mage class hall. The Farstriders also joined the Hunter class hall. Before WOTLK, the most memorable locations to find High Elves were their lodges, populated by exiled Farstriders. Farstriders would have served with the Alliance during the Second War and would have had an increased chance of defection if they had a loyalty to the Alliance. That the Silver Covenant consists mostly of former Farstriders is the most logical explanation.



    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    More headcanon on why would the be "the few." As far as implications go, most of the Dalarani High Elves are Kirin Tor. Again, Dalaran is like one third High Elves, elves that as far as we know never left with Kael'thas -why would have they RETURNED to Dalaran after Garithos?
    Where are the figures stating Dalaran is one third High Elf? I have never seen that figure at all. The only figures we have regarding the High Elves is that they are a rarity, a fraction of a fraction, but here you assert they are one third of the population of a major city.


    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    And again, that is just speculation on your part with little bases on evidence -unlike the fact that we know most of the Dalaran populace was evacuated- and even IF most of the Sunreavers are the same High Elves that taught magic to humans and left with Kael'thas, it's irrelevant to the following 2.5k years of cohabitation between Humans and Elves in Dalaran.
    You continually bring up the two and a half thousand year co-habitation between Elf and Human as Dalaran as if it means something. It might have done once, but you gloss over what happened when Kael came back. He joined the Human forces operating around Dalaran under the command of Garithos, a racist who eventually found a way to sentence all the Elves to death, and the Kirin Tor was happy enough to stand by and let them all be executed (according to Rommath's recollection). Most of the Elves of Dalaran had become Blood Elves and fled through the portal with their Prince to Outland, or do you presume that only Elves from Quel'thalas accompanied Kael and that the thalassian Elves in the city had no interest in events, or that they were spared from accusations of treachery from Garithos? That there are any High Elf Magisters left at all is a minor miracle, but the thalassian community in Dalaran was destroyed at that moment.

    That is why Aethas Sunreaver came back with a few to rebuild it.

    And that is why Veressa formed the Silver Covenant to oppose them, gathering up what are clearly ex Farstriders in Dalaran.

  5. #7945
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    The source of these requests is an attempt to differentiate High Elves from Blood Elves. But you cannot differentiate High Elves from Blood Elves because Blood Elves are High Elves. The divergence between the two groups is political and only occured in game twelve or eleven years ago. As they are the same people, they share an identical culture. It is not possible to justify High Elves have darker skin tones, and Blood Elves not having those tones, without implying all the darker skinned elves were kicked
    out of Quel'thalas. If High Elves had darker skin tones, then Blood Elves would have darker skin tones, because they are the same people.
    The only extra customization I would like for Blood Elves is a blue eyes option though.
    The source of these requests is an attempt to differentiate High Elves from Blood Elves. But you cannot differentiate High Elves from Blood Elves because Blood Elves are High Elves.
    That's the whole point of the Allied Races. Sub-fractions of a parent race with minor differences. The Maghar Orcs and Lightforged Draenai are the same species as regular orcs and Draenai, with minor cultural and physical differences. I dont know how someone can pretend that there is no cultural differences between High Elves and Blood Elves, but recognize the differences in the other allied races.

    As they are the same people, they share an identical culture
    This doesn't stop the Lightforged from existing as a separate fraction. Light Forged are in fact, regular Draenai. You help one become Lightforged in their recruitment scenario.

    If High Elves had darker skin tones, then Blood Elves would have darker skin tones, because they are the same people.
    There are skin tones unavailable to Lightforged Draenai even though they are the same exact people as regular Draenai. They have access to dark skin tones, but LF Draenai do not. Is there a nefarious or racist "negative connotation" why dark skinned Draenai cannot be Lightforged, as you previously suggested? Or is skin color simply another way to separate a single race into multiple fractions as they did with literally every other Allied race?

  6. #7946
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    So...you're saying that because they call themselves Blood Elves now, history has erased the term High Elf and there is no such thing as High Elf History? You know how history works right?
    In case of Thalassian Elves, their country still has its old name, but the people there chose to change their racial name to Sin'dorei to honor the fallen ones. The reactionaries who did not want to do that are therefore traitors, who don't respect the fallen and disagree with the majority of their people. They may want to keep their old name, but this does not make them representatives of their people anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    That's the whole point of the Allied Races. Sub-fractions of a parent race with minor differences. The Maghar Orcs and Lightforged Draenai are the same species as regular orcs and Draenai, with minor cultural and physical differences. I dont know how someone can pretend that there is no cultural differences between High Elves and Blood Elves, but recognize the differences in the other allied races.


    This doesn't stop the Lightforged from existing as a separate fraction. Light Forged are in fact, regular Draenai. You help one become Lightforged in their recruitment scenario.


    There are skin tones unavailable to Lightforged Draenai even though they are the same exact people as regular Draenai. They have access to dark skin tones, but LF Draenai do not. Is there a nefarious or racist "negative connotation" why dark skinned Draenai cannot be Lightforged, as you previously suggested? Or is skin color simply another way to separate a single race into multiple fractions as they did with literally every other Allied race?
    You already got an offshot of Blood Elves in the Alliance. Stop asking for a 2nd one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    What's with all the greed? Why should we be giving all of these new options to Blood Elves? Brown skin, new hair colors and styles, blue eyes with pupils, ear styles, tattoos, new class options, ect. They already got new eye colors without wasting an allied race spot, but the other parent races have to have separate off shoots in order to get new customizations. You want an Orc with brown skin and tattoos? You have to play Maghar. You want a Draenai with gold eyes and gold tattoos? You have to play Lightforged. What "negative connotations?" The orcs who are the same species, are separated by skin color. One fraction has brown skin, the other has green skin.

    Why the hell should Blood Elves get everything? That's so goddamn infuriating.
    Because technically both Void Elves and High Elves are only splinters from the main body of their people who are Blood Elves. And while Void Elves getting some unique features through their void transformation is justified, everything else should be first brought to the MAIN BODY of the people, before it's granted to a splinter faction without a specific reason. Or would your "High Elves" get dark skin options from mating with humans? Then they should be Half-Elves instead. This would be OK though my BE characters would find this as disgusting as mating with apes or dogs.

    BTW you are the greedy one if you want to have 2 offshots from a Horde race in the Alliance.

  7. #7947
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Yup, small variations like their voices, skin/hair/eye colors can all add up to meaningful differences. It's not really about any individual customization it's about the sum of all their parts.

    Also that illustration is amazing! And supported in lore

    "Devi is a high elf sorceress and the apparent apprentice of Krasus, the alias of the great red dragon Korialstrasz. She is a dark-skinned elf with raven-black hair, and has both a curious and inquisitive air about her that some within the Kirin Tor's ranks deem impudent. However, Krasus appreciates her up-front nature."

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Devi

    So we have evidence of another way to meaningfully differentiate High Elves vs Blood Elves. The skin tones for High Elves (I'm guessing due to the changed environment of where they mainly stayed) can be those similar to Humans. It also gives the vibe of them intermingling with humans as spitefully said by Elisande.
    I love that the High Elf NPCs have blue/purple nail polish, in comparison to the evil red that Blood Elves wear. Maybe makeup, jewelry, hair decorations, could be another small way to differentiate between the two? But yeah, I love that the Dark Irons have hair that's on fire, and Void Elves have sexy British voices that carry over into their attack grunts. Blood Elves getting hit sound like dying cows. Its the little things.

    Ruddy skin is actually one of the minor changes to Blood Elves when they were sucking fel. I made a new throwaway Blood Elf with the darkest skin possible. It looks like a bad sunburn. Their eyes are different too. It's not just that High Elves have blue eyes, they have more clear looking eyes with pupils that dont glow. The Belf I made had this radioactive green color, no pupils, and a green mist/fog in front of their eyes. It's not Night Elf flashlight beams, but it's an ugly creepy haze I'd rather not have. BUT what I'd rather have are Alliance elves that can look like Waterbenders. Proper brown skin (not sunburned), and blue/purple eyes.
    Last edited by Alixie; 2018-11-16 at 10:47 AM.

  8. #7948
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    That's the whole point of the Allied Races. Sub-fractions of a parent race with minor differences. The Maghar Orcs and Lightforged Draenai are the same species as regular orcs and Draenai, with minor cultural and physical differences. I dont know how someone can pretend that there is no cultural differences between High Elves and Blood Elves, but recognize the differences in the other allied races.
    There are no cultural differences between Blood Elves and High Elves. It is a political split.

    The Mag'har Orcs are a snapshot of who the Orcs used to be, more clannish and uncorrupted. The point of divergence was the Orcs in our timeline drank Mannoroth's blood.

    The Lightforged Draenei have been subjected to the process of lightforging, that is their point of divergence. In both examples you used, there was a moment when an outside force was used to create a physical variation. High Elves have not had that and remain identical in every way except political allegiance to Blood Elves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    This doesn't stop the Lightforged from existing as a separate fraction. Light Forged are in fact, regular Draenai. You help one become Lightforged in their recruitment scenario.
    Again, the lightforging process itself is the moment of differentiation between a Lightforged Draenei and an ordinary Draenei.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    There are skin tones unavailable to Lightforged Draenai even though they are the same exact people as regular Draenai. They have access to dark skin tones, but LF Draenai do not. Is there a nefarious or racist "negative connotation" why dark skinned Draenai cannot be Lightforged, as you previously suggested? Or is skin color simply another way to separate a single race into multiple fractions as they did with literally every other Allied race?
    You keep plugging the Lightforged example even though it keeps proving my point. Any regular Draenei who undergoes the Lightforging process ceases to be an ordinary Draenei as that is the entire point of the exercise. They are no longer the exact same as regular Draenei, your use of the qualifier 'regular' proves that. The skin tones available to LF Draenei are a consequence of the lightforging process and is a marker of that process.

    There would be negative connotations from dark skinned High Elves (if it were not provided to Blood Elves) because Blood Elves are High Elves and the division was political. There was no outside energy source or great event that physically differentiated High Elves from Blood Elves, which is what happened with the LF Draenei and the regular Draenei, or the Orcs and the MH Orcs. Nor has there been millenia of separation producing subtle physical variations and a massive cultural shift as there has been with Nightborne and Night Elves. If dark skinned High Elves exist, they would have been part of Quel'thalassian society over a decade ago and the idea that all of them became High Elves and were exiled doesn't make sense. Some would have stayed in Quel'thalas and it would be a Blood Elf option too.

  9. #7949
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    You already got an offshot of Blood Elves in the Alliance. Stop asking for a 2nd one.

    Because technically both Void Elves and High Elves are only splinters from the main body of their people who are Blood Elves. And while Void Elves getting some unique features through their void transformation is justified, everything else should be first brought to the MAIN BODY of the people, before it's granted to a splinter faction without a specific reason. Or would your "High Elves" get dark skin options from mating with humans? Then they should be Half-Elves instead. This would be OK though my BE characters would find this as disgusting as mating with apes or dogs.

    BTW you are the greedy one if you want to have 2 offshots from a Horde race in the Alliance.
    I'll stop when they make the High Elves in the Alliance playable. No, I dont mean Blood Elves. Blood Elves were never apart of the Silver Covenant.

    Actually, I never cared about High Elves until I lurked around this thread and saw a bunch of artistic ideas for a new Allied Race turn into jealous protesting. Every single customization idea for High Elves turned into a request for Blood Elf customization. Why should this race get special treatment? Why do the other races need separate race slots in order to get superficial cosmetic options like tattoos or skin colors, except the Blood Elves?

    BTW you are the greedy one if you want to have 2 offshots from a Horde race in the Alliance.
    Nobody asked for Void Elves or Blood Elves that were kicked out of the Horde. I would be happy if they removed Void Elves and replaced them with High Elves, as I can play a Night Elf if I want a purple Elf. If you're Horde, you're in luck, because you can play a purple Night Elf and a normal skinned Blood Elf. This whole thing is a mess Ion created; trying to half ass a decade long request and not piss off Horde players who are protective of their pretty elf race.

    You are greedy if you want more customization options (blue eyes) for the Blood Elves after they just got a new one. No fraction slot required.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    There are no cultural differences between Blood Elves and High Elves. It is a political split.

    The Mag'har Orcs are a snapshot of who the Orcs used to be, more clannish and uncorrupted. The point of divergence was the Orcs in our timeline drank Mannoroth's blood.

    The Lightforged Draenei have been subjected to the process of lightforging, that is their point of divergence. In both examples you used, there was a moment when an outside force was used to create a physical variation. High Elves have not had that and remain identical in every way except political allegiance to Blood Elves.




    Again, the lightforging process itself is the moment of differentiation between a Lightforged Draenei and an ordinary Draenei.




    You keep plugging the Lightforged example even though it keeps proving my point. Any regular Draenei who undergoes the Lightforging process ceases to be an ordinary Draenei as that is the entire point of the exercise. They are no longer the exact same as regular Draenei, your use of the qualifier 'regular' proves that. The skin tones available to LF Draenei are a consequence of the lightforging process and is a marker of that process.

    There would be negative connotations from dark skinned High Elves (if it were not provided to Blood Elves) because Blood Elves are High Elves and the division was political. There was no outside energy source or great event that physically differentiated High Elves from Blood Elves, which is what happened with the LF Draenei and the regular Draenei, or the Orcs and the MH Orcs. Nor has there been millenia of separation producing subtle physical variations and a massive cultural shift as there has been with Nightborne and Night Elves. If dark skinned High Elves exist, they would have been part of Quel'thalassian society over a decade ago and the idea that all of them became High Elves and were exiled doesn't make sense. Some would have stayed in Quel'thalas and it would be a Blood Elf option too.
    Im not sure why youre are ignoring the "point of divergence" in High Elf history when some of them left the Alliance, changed their name, learned Mana Tap from Illidan and started sucking arcane and fel magic from creatures and fel pylons. High Elves who disagreed with these divergences were either kicked out or brainwashed. Politics is a part of culture.

    Im also not sure why some people keep insisting that High Elves and Blood Elves are exactly the same thing in every single way. In lore, they hate being conflated with each other. Even Lorthemar proclaims that his people are "High Elves no longer!" The Blood Elf government recognizes that they are two separate fractions, and banished elves who disagreed with the changes in their culture and society.

    I keep bringing up Lightforged Draenai because they are the same people as regular Draenai. This is the root of your argument for Blood Elves. That they come from the same people: High Elves. LF Draenai come from regular Draenai, so why do you consider them a separate race or fraction but not Blood and High Elves? They, like the Draenai, started using an outside magical force to change their physiology. Their skin got redder/whiter, their eyes turned green/gold.

    I know from reading one of your many, many, posts that you seem to believe that the only reason why Alliance players want High Elves is because they want to steal the Ayran looking Blood Elf model, as stated in your signature. Could it be possible, in a RPG, that people of either fraction would want to play the Silver Covenant High Elves that stayed true to their values, history, and the Alliance? If I just wanted the Blood Elf model, Id play a Blood Elf. But I think they are arrogant, evil, mana sucking traitors, who's role as magical elf in the Horde is being usurped by the much stronger and ambitious Nightborne.

  10. #7950
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    I love that the High Elf NPCs have blue/purple nail polish, in comparison to the evil red that Blood Elves wear. Maybe makeup, jewelry, hair decorations, could be another small way to differentiate between the two? But yeah, I love that the Dark Irons have hair that's on fire, and Void Elves have sexy British voices that carry over into their attack grunts. Blood Elves getting hit sound like dying cows. Its the little things.

    Ruddy skin is actually one of the minor changes to Blood Elves when they were sucking fel. I made a new throwaway Blood Elf with the darkest skin possible. It looks like a bad sunburn. Their eyes are different too. It's not just that High Elves have blue eyes, they have more clear looking eyes with pupils that dont glow. The Belf I made had this radioactive green color, no pupils, and a green mist/fog in front of their eyes. It's not Night Elf flashlight beams, but it's an ugly creepy haze I'd rather not have. BUT what I'd rather have are Alliance elves that can look like Waterbenders. Proper brown skin (not sunburned), and blue/purple eyes.
    Definitely it can. We already know in-game that High Elves in the Alliance all have access to paler hair and skin color options that Blood Elves don't have. As well as Eyes that don't glow but are natural. These along with extra accessory customization and possible darker skin tones can all add up to making differences that help show "hey these guys are not Blood Elves".

    Since that is the main point of contention and anti-posts like to bring up that BE and HE are the same, yet downplay that already in game there are customizations unavailable to Blood Elves because it is being used for High Elves. Same status quo for other races such as Void Elves facial hair vs Blood Elf facial hair, and Lightforged skins vs regular Draenei skins, and Mag'har Orc hairstyles vs Regular Orc hairstyles. Does demon blood automatically not allow Orcs to braid their hair certain styles? Eff no, therefore it's disingenuous when people suggest that every customization option is due to some physiologic event.

    It's not. There's no reason that Corrupt Orcs can't style their hair in the same way has Mag'har. There's no reason that taking in Void allows you to grow a full beard and mustache. These are just differences that Blizzard created superficially to enhance differences between two similar looking Allied Races.

    If we want to see how they deal with adding in High Elves we can look to see how they add in Wildhammer Dwarves. Blizzard themselves have said they know there are those players that want to play these "Dwarves with awesome tattoos" and they discuss in the office all these cool ideas that could work for them.

    So if Wildhammer Dwarf, which currently is only differentiated by tattoos in-game from Bronzebeards, are on the table even with that single variation then this allows High Elves who have 1) Hair color/style differences 2) Skin color differences 3) Eye color differences to be on the table as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    I keep bringing up Lightforged Draenai because they are the same people as regular Draenai. This is the root of your argument for Blood Elves. That they come from the same people: High Elves. LF Draenai come from regular Draenai, so why do you consider them a separate race or fraction but not Blood and High Elves? They, like the Draenai, started using an outside magical force to change their physiology. Their skin got redder/whiter, their eyes turned green/gold.
    Not to mention that Turalyon was also Lightforged but he kept his skin tone/hair color etc. Really only his eyes glowed yellow and no even his entire eye, just his irises. We also know that Holy Dreadlord Lothraxion had changed overall look as well. Again, this is all to accentuate differences between playable options. What reason is there for Turalyon to stay pretty much regular except for glowing light irises while Draenei and Lothraxion are forced to have pale skins only?

    It's nothing more than just Blizzard trying to accentuate differences. If it's true that the Lightforge process is what causes every single entity to gain pale skin then Turalyon should've been subject to this as well. But Blizzard makes choices they want that's really the truth of the matter.

  11. #7951
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    It's not really that hard to understand that playable high elfs are just not plausible due to a myriad of issues... all of which you choose to naively dismiss. The very fact that void elfs were introduced (AND NOT high elfs) is evidence that Blizz believe high elfs would blur faction lines. Dismiss that fact all you want, doesn't make it any less true.

    If it's story progression you want for the high elfs, that can be achieved by them remaining as NPCs. Though they don't really have any story of their own to begin with, they're really only a foil plot for blood elfs. If it's the aesthetics, well...you already know... the horde is waiting for you. This game is based on two factions with separate cultures, aethestics, themes and visions... the game is FOUNDED on this principle. Why do people want to blur it? Just cause they want to look good in sexy Xmog?
    Well talk about a non sequitur honey! If your counter argument to anything is "WELL HIGH ELVES AREN'T GOING TO BE PLAYABLE" It's pointless arguing with you about anything.

    As for blurring "faction identities" it's rather silly that in a game about FACTION WAR the division is arbitrarily made by race rather than you know... politics.

    Also "look sexy on a mog" Sigh, when peoople even after all this time don't even get why others want High Elves just really show a profound lack of comprehension or even understanding. Is it willful? People have spend so much time explaining all the lore reasons they want High Elves, and that you keep dismissing it as "wanting to look sexy" downright tells us you are not listening to anything is being said to you, and that you have already made your mind about why people wanting HE in a way that fits your narrative.

    You don't want to have a discussion, that is obvious, you just want to be right.

  12. #7952
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    You don't want to have a discussion, that is obvious, you just want to be right.
    I think you fellas don't want to hear anything than total agreement.

    So far I haven't seen any actual argument aside you REALLY thinking you deserve Helfs which is not much considering that you don't actually deserve anything and at the same time forcing the Belf race to accept UNCONDITIONALLY another playable clone just cause a bunch of people got really vocal.

  13. #7953
    Quote Originally Posted by scubistacy View Post
    In case of Thalassian Elves, their country still has its old name, but the people there chose to change their racial name to Sin'dorei to honor the fallen ones. The reactionaries who did not want to do that are therefore traitors, who don't respect the fallen and disagree with the majority of their people. They may want to keep their old name, but this does not make them representatives of their people anymore.
    You're right. I wasn't trying to say otherwise. But High Elves, Blood Elves and the history of both groups still exists. Simply changing their name from High Elves to Blood Elves doesn't erase the fact they were High Elves. Like someone native to another country moving from there to America and then calling themselves American. Doing that doesn't erase the fact they are factually from the other country, or all of a sudden make their previous history American.

    History just states events as they happened (usually, I'm not going to debate the nuances of how it gets recorded and who records it and all that), you can categorize it in a bucket if you want for ease of understanding, like calling all the history prior to the name Blood Elf, Blood Elf history, but that's not really accurate it's just a way to label it in a way that ties it to the people you're talking about. Saying there is no such thing as High Elf history or Lore is just patently false.

  14. #7954
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Silver Covenant NPCs have tended to use bows or stealth. Most Dalaran High Elves were Mages. It's a city of Mages. That was the entire point. Silver Covenant High Elves are part of an organisation that is patterned after the Farstriders, with the leader styling herself as Ranger-General, rather than Magisters. During Legion they joined the Hunter class hall and not the Mage class hall. The Farstriders also joined the Hunter class hall. Before WOTLK, the most memorable locations to find High Elves were their lodges, populated by exiled Farstriders. Farstriders would have served with the Alliance during the Second War and would have had an increased chance of defection if they had a loyalty to the Alliance. That the Silver Covenant consists mostly of former Farstriders is the most logical explanation.
    Again, it's ALL speculation in your part, and faulty at one as you dismiss all the times the Silver Covenant has been represented by Mages rather than Ranger: The SC as been also shown on Suramar with their mages, as well in the Isle of Thunder, the Argent Tournament and in the 7th Legion. To say the SC is a Ranger organization is a misinterpretation of the evidence we have, when they have been shown to also operate as mages as often.

    Vereesa's title has little incidence, all that tells us is that the SC militaristic ally is patterned after a Farstrider group at best, otherwise that since she is the founder she just chose the title based on her skillset.

    Yes, the Silver Covenant Rangers joined the Hunter Hall, but their Mages joined the Suramar Insurrection. That they joined one Order Hall doesn't mean they have one role as a faction.

    And again, your whole thing about the Helves on the lodges joining the SC is just speculation, possible yes, but with no supporting evidence. So to say "it's the most logical explanation" is really just your opinion, it could literally be as likely just be Vereesa training a bunch of discontent Dalarani citizens as Rangers, because again, you don't have any evidence that most, or even a sizable part of the current Silver Covenant Rangers come from a Farstrider background



    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Where are the figures stating Dalaran is one third High Elf? I have never seen that figure at all. The only figures we have regarding the High Elves is that they are a rarity, a fraction of a fraction, but here you assert they are one third of the population of a major city.
    In game NPC representation it's all we have on the matter, and it's pretty evident the ratios between Humans, High Elves and Gnomes aren't far off and they are the three majority races in Dalaran. There's nothing in Dalaran to suggest High Elves a populace rarity, specially when everything implies the opposite.


    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    You continually bring up the two and a half thousand year co-habitation between Elf and Human as Dalaran as if it means something. It might have done once, but you gloss over what happened when Kael came back. He joined the Human forces operating around Dalaran under the command of Garithos, a racist who eventually found a way to sentence all the Elves to death, and the Kirin Tor was happy enough to stand by and let them all be executed (according to Rommath's recollection). Most of the Elves of Dalaran had become Blood Elves and fled through the portal with their Prince to Outland, or do you presume that only Elves from Quel'thalas accompanied Kael and that the thalassian Elves in the city had no interest in events, or that they were spared from accusations of treachery from Garithos? That there are any High Elf Magisters left at all is a minor miracle, but the thalassian community in Dalaran was destroyed at that moment.

    That is why Aethas Sunreaver came back with a few to rebuild it.

    And that is why Veressa formed the Silver Covenant to oppose them, gathering up what are clearly ex Farstriders in Dalaran.
    And AGAIN you keep dismissing the fact that the Dalaran Population Was Evacuated. and that You Don't Know How Many Elves Returned With Kael to Quel'thalas, became Blood Elves, and were mistreated by Garithos.

    Kai, you have no evidence that Most of the Elves of Dalaran left with Kael, you can't use it as a fact, is just speculation on your part, and one that I deem utterly faulty, when the current High Elven population of Dalaran is far more likely to be just the people that didn't left with him rather than Any Other Migrant Group out of Nowhere, with No Explanation.

    How many Elves left with Kael? We don't Know

    How much Elves were there in Dalaran even before this? We don't know.

    But we DO know that there is a sizable population of High Elves in Dalaran, and there's no reason to believe they are not of the same Elves that literally have been living in there for millennia. Yes, some did leave with Kael, but I stress this enough, you can't know how many, or even if they were the majority.

    Personally I would say that is logical to assume that most of the elves living in Dalaran would see THAT city as their home, so it would stand for more elves staying in Dalaran than returning to Quel'thalas. Yet you assume the complete opposite, which honestly I really don't get. You keep assuming that most elves would have returned with Kael, when there was a reason why they were in Dalaran, living in there, it's like you think Dalaran was just their vacation spot and not the city they lived in.

    Why would the Thalassian community in Dalaran had been destroyed, when we literally see still standing in WotLK? There's a huge disconnect here in your interpretation of events with what we can literally see. It wasn't any Dalaran authority that condemned the Blood Elves, and while I'm pretty sure there would have been issues with the Dalaran population, is pretty evident that the remaining High Elves didn't hold Dalaran accountable for the Blood Elves treatement.

    Aethas returned to Dalaran to re-claim his place and of those Blood Elves that left, not to rejoin the already established High Elf community of Dalaran.

    And Vereesa most likely created the SC out of the same Dalaran High Elves that opposed this, and what you deem "clearly ex Farstriders" is just baseless, unfounded, speculation. Use Occam's razor on this Kai:

    What is the Silver Covenant made of? Elves of Dalaran that already lived there -like Vereesa- and did not want the Horde BE in Dalaran, or a completely unmentioned or hinted group of migrant Farstriders coming out of nowhere? Did Vereesa recruit some scattered Farstriders? We literally have no idea. Sounds likely yeah, but no idea, so it's pretty convoluted to point as them as the MAIN component of the Silver Covenant, when there's already a far more likely explanation in the elves ALREADY living in Dalaran.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    I think you fellas don't want to hear anything than total agreement.

    So far I haven't seen any actual argument aside you REALLY thinking you deserve Helfs which is not much considering that you don't actually deserve anything and at the same time forcing the Belf race to accept UNCONDITIONALLY another playable clone just cause a bunch of people got really vocal.
    Question, what was the context in which I made this response? Really if you are just going to take out of context what I am saying do YOU want to have a discussion?

    And yeah, claiming that "we" believe we deserve High Elves just shows how little you actually seem to understand about the conversation, how little you are actually responding to my stances and just taking my previous answer, to someone else, out of context, just to spout your general anti High Elf rhetoric.

    Be my guest if you want to address one of my specific points, but if you are just going to decontextualize and stawman me, you really don't need me for that.

  15. #7955
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Question, what was the context in which I made this response? Really if you are just going to take out of context what I am saying do YOU want to have a discussion?

    And yeah, claiming that "we" believe we deserve High Elves just shows how little you actually seem to understand about the conversation, how little you are actually responding to my stances and just taking my previous answer, to someone else, out of context, just to spout your general anti High Elf rhetoric.

    Be my guest if you want to address one of my specific points, but if you are just going to decontextualize and stawman me, you really don't need me for that.
    See this is I keep telling you to get over yourselves.

    The guy you responded to was spot on. You are trying to reinvent the wheel here by trying to place a figurative tape over the theme and visual differences that exist between most races in every faction and how Blizzard views that element, which was shown to you and outright told to your faces by the developers. You continue to pretend like everyone is wrong, including Blizzard and you are the only ones who are right. I'm not the first who tries to tell you that it does not work like that and I won't be the last. That's why I keep telling you to get over yourselves.

    And by the way, considering your behavior concerning posts that disagree with you, it kinda shows you have no interest in a discussion short of total agreement.

  16. #7956
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    See this is I keep telling you to get over yourselves.

    The guy you responded to was spot on. You are trying to reinvent the wheel here by trying to place a figurative tape over the theme and visual differences that exist between most races in every faction and how Blizzard views that element, which was shown to you and outright told to your faces by the developers. You continue to pretend like everyone is wrong, including Blizzard and you are the only ones who are right. I'm not the first who tries to tell you that it does not work like that and I won't be the last. That's why I keep telling you to get over yourselves.

    And by the way, considering your behavior concerning posts that disagree with you, it kinda shows you have no interest in a discussion short of total agreement.
    ..We were talking about High Elves animosity against the Horde due to the events of the Second War and how Lor'themar's exile was not the only reason of groups such as the Silver Covenant existing.

    Again, did you have any idea what was being talked about before taking my response out of context to go into yet another pointless "well accept High Elves aren't happening"?

    You are not presenting any arguments, you are just saying "not going to happen" when what we are hoping is for Blizzard is to change their mind, and suggest ways they could do so in a way that preserves what they deem faction identity.

    I'm open for discussion, and you have admitted to only want to say "Not going to happen." If anyone is asking for total agreement in here, it is you.Tell me were did I ask for such a thing, when all I am doing is present my opinions and postures.

    You keep framing this as an issue of being wrong or right, when that's the most asinine way of framing a discussion about opinions, and that's the issue, You want to be right, I want playable High Elves, and you are unable to understand the difference between making an argument for something, and being empirically right about it.

    Which again, leads us to you being unable to understand what discussion is actually being had.

  17. #7957
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    ..We were talking about High Elves animosity against the Horde due to the events of the Second War and how Lor'themar's exile was not the only reason of groups such as the Silver Covenant existing.

    Again, did you have any idea what was being talked about before taking my response out of context to go into yet another pointless "well accept High Elves aren't happening"?

    You are not presenting any arguments, you are just saying "not going to happen" when what we are hoping is for Blizzard is to change their mind, and suggest ways they could do so in a way that preserves what they deem faction identity.

    I'm open for discussion, and you have admitted to only want to say "Not going to happen." If anyone is asking for total agreement in here, it is you.Tell me were did I ask for such a thing, when all I am doing is present my opinions and postures.

    You keep framing this as an issue of being wrong or right, when that's the most asinine way of framing a discussion about opinions, and that's the issue, You want to be right, I want playable High Elves, and you are unable to understand the difference between making an argument for something, and being empirically right about it.

    Which again, leads us to you being unable to understand what discussion is actually being had.
    Yeah, I tend to read some of the wishful thinking you fellas seem to talk yourself into cause let's be honest here, you are not trying to convince anyone, you are just trying to discredit anyone who does not bow to your demands, kinda like you are doing now with me, knowing full well that strippling was responding to one of your remarks about accountability using it as some kind of justification when the fact is, it's not about story justification and it it was ONLY about that, Blizzard could accommodate it just like that.

    And evidently Blizzard has to change their mind, cause no one else will give you Helfs in WoW. The problem is that you fellas seem to think that people who disagree with you and do not want helfs for several reasons, are just wrong and out to get you, that's why you have to bring the fight by making pathetic insinuations like you are doing with me.

    It's lovely how you fellas want the Horde to give you another cloned belfs and if they argue or disagree, well, they are just too stupid to understand or they are flaming.

  18. #7958
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    Yeah, I tend to read some of the wishful thinking you fellas seem to talk yourself into cause let's be honest here, you are not trying to convince anyone, you are just trying to discredit anyone who does not bow to your demands, kinda like you are doing now with me, knowing full well that strippling was responding to one of your remarks about accountability using it as some kind of justification when the fact is, it's not about story justification and it it was ONLY about that, Blizzard could accommodate it just like that.

    And evidently Blizzard has to change their mind, cause no one else will give you Helfs in WoW. The problem is that you fellas seem to think that people who disagree with you and do not want helfs for several reasons, are just wrong and out to get you, that's why you have to bring the fight by making pathetic insinuations like you are doing with me.

    It's lovely how you fellas want the Horde to give you another cloned belfs and if they argue or disagree, well, they are just too stupid to understand or they are flaming.
    And again with the right/wrong dichotomy that I just dismissed, it's like literally you are unable to understand what I am saying, And again using the opportunity to just rant about High elves in general. Strippling swerved from the conversation we were having about the SC and started talking about "well there are reasons why HE aren't playable" and you injected yourself into that.

    You keep yammering about "You just want to discredit anyone who doesn't bow to your demands" without actually addressing any discussion points, just arguing for arguing sake against your made up point about me just saying everyone who doesn't agree is wrong.

    I don't know how many time I have to reiterate myself this isn't an issue about a right or wrong opinion, this is the third time now, and it really shows you ARE really unable to understand the distinction between making an argument and having a discussion and just wanting to be right. I lierally have told you "being right" is not my intention, but you in you keep being unable to understand, and go on keep ranting about "You just think everyone that disagrees with you is wrong"

    Seriously, read to what you respond, take it in and then discuss it, cause again if you just want to rant about strawmen, you can do that without me or anyone else.

    But your constant generalizations really do tell us that is what you really want instead of an actual discussion.

  19. #7959
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    ..We were talking about High Elves animosity against the Horde due to the events of the Second War and how Lor'themar's exile was not the only reason of groups such as the Silver Covenant existing.

    Again, did you have any idea what was being talked about before taking my response out of context to go into yet another pointless "well accept High Elves aren't happening"?

    You are not presenting any arguments, you are just saying "not going to happen" when what we are hoping is for Blizzard is to change their mind, and suggest ways they could do so in a way that preserves what they deem faction identity.

    I'm open for discussion, and you have admitted to only want to say "Not going to happen." If anyone is asking for total agreement in here, it is you.Tell me were did I ask for such a thing, when all I am doing is present my opinions and postures.

    You keep framing this as an issue of being wrong or right, when that's the most asinine way of framing a discussion about opinions, and that's the issue, You want to be right, I want playable High Elves, and you are unable to understand the difference between making an argument for something, and being empirically right about it.

    Which again, leads us to you being unable to understand what discussion is actually being had.
    I wouldn't know if Helfs are not happening. Now I can assume they are not happening since they added Velfs and the lead developer told you fellas where to find your Helfs not so long ago. Call it an educated guess. If you think that does not make a good subject for discussion, say so, just don't pretend it's not a valid point cause it shatters your virtual dreams.

    And if I were to debate you on anything regarding the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers I wouldn't pick reasoning since that's as clear as day and I wouldn't use blurry backgrounds where I'd have to rely on guesses and honestly it would still go back to the original argument that you seem to dislike, that the similarity between the two is way too great, we always end up there, go back and read, it goes full circle.

    The thing you don't seem to understand is that people aren't willing to look past that point no matter how much you'd want them to.

    At which point you'll argue that I just want to disagree with you and you'll start acting up again just as you are now. So what's the point of going round and round with the same stuff until you eventually declare that I'm telling you that Helfs aren't happening, strawmanning or I'm trolling. That is what I'm pointing out.

    It was never about right and wrong, it was more about you cycling through the same old crap to reach the same convenient conclusion.

  20. #7960
    Quote Originally Posted by Evilfish View Post
    I wouldn't know if Helfs are not happening. Now I can assume they are not happening since they added Velfs and the lead developer told you fellas where to find your Helfs not so long ago. Call it an educated guess. If you think that does not make a good subject for discussion, say so, just don't pretend it's not a valid point cause it shatters your virtual dreams.

    And if I were to debate you on anything regarding the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers I wouldn't pick reasoning since that's as clear as day and I wouldn't use blurry backgrounds where I'd have to rely on guesses and honestly it would still go back to the original argument that you seem to dislike, that the similarity between the two is way too great, we always end up there, go back and read, it goes full circle.

    The thing you don't seem to understand is that people aren't willing to look past that point no matter how much you'd want them to.

    At which point you'll argue that I just want to disagree with you and you'll start acting up again just as you are now. So what's the point of going round and round with the same stuff until you eventually declare that I'm telling you that Helfs aren't happening, strawmanning or I'm trolling. That is what I'm pointing out.

    It was never about right and wrong, it was more about you cycling through the same old crap to reach the same convenient conclusion.
    Literally all you are saying is "No, they are too similar to work" so how is that you being open to any discussion? Then what are you bringing to a discussion about High Elves and their playability?

    Again, if all you have to say about the matter is "High Elves are not happening" you have already said anything you need to say. What is the point to come back and keep repeating the same thing? Do you want to have a discussion, go ahead, but if all you have is "High Elves are not happening" that is not being part of a discussion.

    So what's the point of anything you are saying beyond that? Do you even have anything to say beyond that?

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