Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Varodoc]

But it's to be expected that Horde bias would come into the discussion.

It's true. Prove me wrong, after Blizzard mocked Alliance players at Blizzcon by insulting them, and with Ion who mains an Orc Shaman (nothing screams "HORDE" more than that race-class combination).

I don't care about High Elves, but let's be real, if Ion were replaced by a fan of Vereesa, the lore would be bent so that High Elves make sense as a playable race. But with Ion in charge? Don't expect any love given to the Alliance. They are too busy making a third full-CGI cinematic for Saurfang's boring storyline which is just Vol'jin 2.0.

[Evilfish]

It's true. Prove me wrong, after Blizzard mocked Alliance players at Blizzcon by insulting them, and with Ion who mains an Orc Shaman (nothing screams "HORDE" more than that race-class combination).

I don't care about High Elves, but let's be real, if Ion were replaced by a fan of Vereesa, the lore would be bent so that High Elves make sense as a playable race. But with Ion in charge? Don't expect any love given to the Alliance. They are too busy making a third full-CGI cinematic for Saurfang's boring storyline which is just Vol'jin 2.0.

So if Ion would roll Alliance instead, that wouldn't be bias?

Look, I'm not saying that some of the devs aren't biased, like us they enjoy part of the game and some of them might have chosen Horde as much as others have chosen to go Alliance, but specifically alienating one half of their players cause, I don't know, is not a reasonable assumption and certainly not a reason to request stuff.

I'm not familiar with the Blizzcon insult however.

And it's kind of amusing that Ion plays a shaman considering how much that class sucked.

So using this exact subject, giving another version of the belf to the Alliance translates how to the considerable part of the Horde that plays belfs? I mean it's not the first time it happens. How do you justify doing it again for a bunch of people whose only argument is that they really want the respective clone. It's bias unless they don't?

[protip]

I often read in this thread that people aren't asking for a copy of Blood Elves on the Alliance, but that is just what high elves are. Kul Tiran humans may be visually different from Stormwind humans, but all of the options are available to Alliance players. Having the standard human model as an option for Kul Tiran humans would be fine by me, but is largely redundant. There is no precedent for an arbitrary separation of visual customization options between factions, nor should there be. Elves should not arbitrarily gain 50 pounds because they're wearing a blue tabard instead of a red one. There has to be a visual disparity between models that is proportional to its basis, and I don't believe that it is possible for high elves to be different enough from Blood Elves without changing what high elves are or sacrificing the integrity of the relationship between the model and what it represents.

No, i mean... the fantasy of the group of exiles that evade the corruption of their people.

That fantasy can exist in any new race, and arguably already does in the Mag'har orcs. If you're asking for that while also being a Thalassian elf in addition to being a member of the Alliance, I think you're just asking Blizzard to give up too much. The real problem with high elves as an independent playable race is that they don't contribute unique options, only a unique combination of options that already exist. None of the existing playable races are like that. At least for me, it represents a lower standard for playable races, even allied races.

[Maxilian]

That fantasy can exist in any new race, and arguably already does in the Mag'har orcs. If you're asking for that while also being a Thalassian elf in addition to being a member of the Alliance, I think you're just asking Blizzard to give up too much. The real problem with high elves as an independent playable race is that they don't contribute unique options, only a unique combination of options that already exist. None of the existing playable races are like that. At least for me, it represents a lower standard for playable races, even allied races.

Yes, is like the fantasy of the Mag'har Orcs but more regal, i do agree that the HE by themselves and how they are right now are not unique enough to be an allied race (but when it comes to looks that can easily be solved), sadly their appearance in Dalaran doesn't show much of their culture and how they have evolved (if at all)

[Garfurion]

Also Darnarian and the Froshands and Captains. The problem is that we don't know where they come from. Are they late addition BE's? Kirin Tor turn coats? Some BE's that were somewhere else during the heavy usage of fel crystals in QT? With no explanation of where they come from, and no new additions since MoP, it's only speculative.

IMO the Frosthands have blue eyes just because of that, they use ice magic XD. The Captains could be a bug for all we know, since there is no reason why that type of NPC would have blue eyes and the rest not.

Probably just Blizzard making a mistake with skin id's. It took a long time for them to fix Arathor the Redeemer's eyes as well. Blue/Green eyes are meant as visual queues as to the background of the characters.

Given all the demonic energy in Outland all the Alliance Expedition Elves should have had green eyes as well, and perhaps the eyes of all Night Elf player characters should have changed green as well, at least while in Outland.

[FlubberPuddy]

That fantasy can exist in any new race, and arguably already does in the Mag'har orcs. If you're asking for that while also being a Thalassian elf in addition to being a member of the Alliance, I think you're just asking Blizzard to give up too much. The real problem with high elves as an independent playable race is that they don't contribute unique options, only a unique combination of options that already exist. None of the existing playable races are like that. At least for me, it represents a lower standard for playable races, even allied races.

Nightborne are exactly this. They offer another form of 1)arcane based elves to the 2)Horde (Blood Elves were the first) and 3)are purple elves like Nightelves.

Most Allied Races are this, to varying degrees. Kul'Tirans can be the only factually new racial type that isn't expressed in some playable form by the options available in game. To a lesser extent Zandalari are as well though their basis for animations comes from Night Elves (and this can be seen in a decent portion of their animations).

I think that, to propose Allied Races have to be adding something wholly unique is already in violation of what the system has expressed. We already see end spectrums of how similar and how different Allied Races can be from the Highmountain Tauren(High Similarity/Low Difference) to Kul'Tiran(Low similarity/High difference).

This can always go back and forth so I'll say this:

Blizzard has not ever stated that they won't be adding a 3rd variation of races to the Allied Races system.
Their recent spiel on Wildhammer actually makes it seem they are willing to 3rd iterations.
Playable Allied Races have gotten extra customization that did not exist until they were playable (Dark Iron tattoos, different KulTiran models).
As stated earlier, there are varying degrees of similarities/differences between every Allied Race and their current counterpart.

I mean maybe to you and most of the staunch posters against High Elves feel it represents a low standard, but there's also players out there who really want to play slight variations of races, even if it's something as little as tattoos specific to Wildhammer Dwarves. I don't think any one person can say that this system is meant to only bring about unique flavors when clearly there has already been highly similar flavors released.

I mean it feels to be splitting the hairs when you say High Elves as playable indepedently "doesn't contribute anything unique only a unique combination" because that is then literally making it unique, is it not? Especially when Nightborne already exist as this. You already had purple elves (Night Elves), you already had magic focused elves (Blood Elves) and those magic elves were on Horde.

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You had a lead dev nod along when told 'High Elves are the Alliance version of Void Elves', blanch a little when asked about High Elf LIKE customization options and who then said 'it's always possible (like the previous two times Ion said anything is possible in future...sorry three times, Ion was asked at Blizzcon apparently and more or less said the exact same thing albeit much nicer and less direct).

Of course, a Void Elf with High Elf LIKE customization options isn't going to be a High Elf. It's still going to be a shadow infested Void Elf.

Yeah that lead dev also emphasized to "not give up hope" but of course you'd have to leave that out to blur the real content of the answer. Love that the emphasis from Obelisk here is on "how the lead dev blanched" and not the fact that what Alex literally emphasizes the most is the not giving up hope part.

And since Obelisk brought it up (I don't really want to bring up hearsays typically), yes Ion was asked about High Elves at this Blizzcon and the exact quote from that person who asked Ion is this:

"so Ion told me that, again, high elves wn't be in BFA, but that it doesn't mean they will never happen"

[Aucald]

Well there is one thing we cant forget : for the better and for the worse, warcraft's Lore is tied up to gameplay, and many of the Lore's restrictions come from gameplay decisions. Having said that, we clearly see that it is a gameplay decision that the colors of the playable Blood elf eyes and the Npcs from Silvermoon have exclusively fel green or golden eyes, something no other group of quelthalas elves have.

The glowing blue eyes and sometimes green (not FEL green) belong to the elves who are Queldorei (as said in the suramar liberation quest) and not Sindorei (blood elves) or Rendorei (void elves). So for me Blizzard clearly splits Sindorei and Queldorei ingame and shows their differences.

I agree for the most part, in terms of playable creation the blue and green/gold distinction is indeed in play. From the lore perspective, though; the eye-coloration has little to do with who is in which group and rather who was present in Silvermoon when Fel magic was used to rebuild it, and/or who drew power from the Burning Crystals charged with Fel energies after Kael's flight to Outland. The handful of blue-eyed Blood Elves are likely those who remained in Dalaran after the schism, but when put to the question declared their allegiance to Silvermoon and took up the mana-tapping behavior that Rommath prescribed for Arcane addiction. You could easily have green-eyed High Elves that we've not seen - they simply would've had to break with Silvermoon after its reconstruction and been in the area long enough to be tainted, but then left to deal with the addiction their own way afterward.

The blue/green/gold split is largely a gameplay contrivance - a crude labeling mechanism. The split between High and Blood Elves is more ideological, though; based on whether or not a given Elf followed the practices Rommath brought back from Outland or found them ethically abhorrent and refused to take part. Regardless of your eye coloration, if you chose exile then you're of the Quel'dorei, and if you chose to accept it then you're of the Sin'dorei.

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I wonder if after all that happened (mainly with the Void Elves and Alleria), if the HE are still allowed to pilgrimage into the Sunwell, if not, it would make sense to have more and more HE studying to become VEs.

Difficult to say. Silvermoon seemed to have relaxed its exile of the High Elves, probably an effect of Lor'themar's conflicted emotions in "Shadow of the Sun," so I would assume that High Elven pilgrims are permitted to visit the renewed Sunwell so long as they aren't part of an enemy detachment. Not sure if this is an open or one-time invitation, though; I would assume the latter given the strained relations between the two groups. With the faction war in full swing it may also have been rescinded altogether in the interests of security.

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I do think there is an interesting room for speculation here, as we really don't know exactly WHY some Blood Elves are getting Golden Eyes are others not. That we haven't seen HE's with golden eyes so far could simply be that Blizz hasn't bothered, or there is actually a reason.

As for the handful of Blood Elves with blue eyes, we still don't know why they have Blue Eyes. Are they High Elves that joined the BE? Blood Elves that just weren't in Q'T for enough time during the usage of fel crystals? It really doesn't tell us that Blood Elves have a way of getting Blue Eyes back, specially since the last blue eyed blood elves showed up during MoP, so it's hard to think is something emerging if it hasn't actually happened again for the last 6 years. Makes it look more like a one time thing.

I assume the Blood Elves without green eyes are simply those who weren't present in Silvermoon during the reconstruction, and never drained Fel energy from either the Burning Crystals or demons. There were probably a few Blood Elves who lived and worked in or around Dalaran even post-collapse, who weren't part of Kael's detachment and so weren't jailed by Garithos on suspicion of treachery. Some may have also been in smaller lodges through the area, or small unremarked-on communities, who while not present to be Fel-tainted still kept their allegiance to Silvermoon when the bulk of the High Elves were exiled. Mana-tapping itself wouldn't bestow the Fel taint (unless you tapped a source of Fel energy), so a few Blood Elves might've kept their original eye coloration.

I don't really know what leads to the golden eye coloration and if it is a recent development or if it was meant to be possible all the time. Based on some depictions of Liadrin I would think the coloration is meant for those individuals with a strong connection to the Light (e.g. Paladins and Priests) and not for the bulk of the Blood Elves, though who can really say. If there are any prominent High Elven Priests or Paladins remaining I would assume this coloration is an open possibility for them as well.

[Fyersing]

Rather than respond to every single point you have made, let us boil it down. I believe the following occurred. That when the city of Dalaran fell during Warcraft 3, it's community of High Elves was destroyed and scattered to the winds (not necessarily the people). Some went with Jaina to Kalimdor, which is an in game explanation for the fact Mage and Priest units in the Alliance armies during missions set in Kalimdor were High Elves. These individuals later settled in Theramore alongside Jaina.
Some returned with Kael'thas to Silvermoon and became Blood Elves.

Some remained around Dalaran to help them rebuild. When Kael returned at the head of the Blood Elven forces to assist Garithos, he would have shown up before he a.) split with the Alliance b.) went to Outland and sided with Illidan c.) sent Rommath back to teach the Blood Elves how to use those techniques to survive. These Elves would have had almost no reason not to side with their Prince, who lest we forget was the leader of the Thalassian Elf community prior to the fall of the city. There was nothing to schism over.

The rest of what you've posted seems entirely agreeable, but the underlined bits represent the precise point in the narrative where ambiguity is rife. It is just as plausible that those High Elves who remained in Dalaran (while Kael'thas and his followers were reconquering Quel'thalas) elected, of their own accord, to remain completely separate from Kael'thas when he returned to the city with his congregation of Blood Elves.

In either scenario, the composition of both of the modern organizations (Blood Elves of Quel'thalas, High Elves of the Silver Covenant) are easily explained; the Blood Elves would've been predominantly composed of individuals who utilized magic heavily, the High Elves would've been predominantly composed of individuals who utilized magic lightly or not at all.

The contentious bit of all of this is discerning whether or not these High Elves constituted an ideologically distinct grouping, then, or if that divergent worldview was entirely based upon the Blood Elves joining the Horde. As it is a common argument made by the folks who don't particularly like the idea of playable High Elves, that 11-12 years isn't enough time for the High Elves to have become culturally distinct from the Blood Elves (despite it being asserted, in-game, in 6/7 expansions that the High Elves are culturally unique from the Blood Elves in numerous respects), wouldn't that same argument then suggest that this ideological divide is decades/centuries in the making?

TL;DR

If it is true that 11-12 years isn't enough for High Elves to have diverged from Blood Elves, culturally, and
If it's true, being a known fact to virtually all factions who've made note of the subject in-game, that High Elves have indeed diverged from Blood Elves, culturally,
Then it must also be true that said cultural divergence occurred prior to 11-12 years ago, no?

[protip]

Nightborne are exactly this. They offer another form of 1)arcane based elves to the 2)Horde (Blood Elves were the first) and 3)are purple elves like Nightelves.

Most Allied Races are this, to varying degrees. Kul'Tirans can be the only factually new racial type that isn't expressed in some playable form by the options available in game. To a lesser extent Zandalari are as well though their basis for animations comes from Night Elves (and this can be seen in a decent portion of their animations).

I think that, to propose Allied Races have to be adding something wholly unique is already in violation of what the system has expressed. We already see end spectrums of how similar and how different Allied Races can be from the Highmountain Tauren(High Similarity/Low Difference) to Kul'Tiran(Low similarity/High difference).

This can always go back and forth so I'll say this:

Blizzard has not ever stated that they won't be adding a 3rd variation of races to the Allied Races system.
Their recent spiel on Wildhammer actually makes it seem they are willing to 3rd iterations.
Playable Allied Races have gotten extra customization that did not exist until they were playable (Dark Iron tattoos, different KulTiran models).
As stated earlier, there are varying degrees of similarities/differences between every Allied Race and their current counterpart.

I mean maybe to you and most of the staunch posters against High Elves feel it represents a low standard, but there's also players out there who really want to play slight variations of races, even if it's something as little as tattoos specific to Wildhammer Dwarves. I don't think any one person can say that this system is meant to only bring about unique flavors when clearly there has already been highly similar flavors released.

I mean it feels to be splitting the hairs when you say High Elves as playable indepedently "doesn't contribute anything unique only a unique combination" because that is then literally making it unique, is it not? Especially when Nightborne already exist as this. You already had purple elves (Night Elves), you already had magic focused elves (Blood Elves) and those magic elves were on Horde.

If you break it down in that specific way, there are some similarities to what I describe, but not remotely on the same level. Most importantly, the Nightborne are 10,000 years removed from those "purple elves" that you mentioned; they are not night elves. The high elves on the Alliance and those on the Horde have no physical differences. Also, you can argue that Blood Elves are "arcane based elves," but the Nightborne are a completely different concept of what that means. Alliance high elves have no such distinction, and unlike the Nightborne, their story leaves no room for it. You're comparing a distant cousin to an identical twin.

You argue that I'm splitting hairs by saying that high elves don't contribute anything unique, but I'm most definitely not. Nightborne have unique models, fantasy, architecture, and story. No other race looks and feels like a Nightborne. Meanwhile, high elves are already playable.

[FlubberPuddy]

If you break it down in that specific way, there are some similarities to what I describe, but not remotely on the same level. Most importantly, the Nightborne are 10,000 years removed from those "purple elves" that you mentioned; they are not night elves.

I used broad strokes to make my point just as there are those that use broad strokes when trying to argue against High Elves when we all know it's a bit more nuanced than that. If one is going to reduce High Elves to broad strokes, I don't see why the same cannot be done for all other Allied Races. Again, there are varying degrees of similarities as differences with each of the Allied Races that already exist. This is increased similarity that High Elves share with Blood Elves is similar to the differences between Highmountain and Mulgore Tauren. Or even the potential Wildhammer Dwarves, which we know devs also excitedly discuss.

Nightborne are the Highborne portion of the Night Elves. They are the Night Elf counterpart of an Allied Race. You can reduce the "purple elves" bit all you want but there is a literal quest in-game making reference to this that I've linked many times, I'll do it one more time though I do not believe you haven't already seen it:

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=49427/...r-purple-elves

It's implying the connection there between Night Elves, which the Nightborne do have whether you'd like to downplay that or not. Again it is all about varying degrees of similarities and differences, that's my main point.

The high elves on the Alliance and those on the Horde have no physical differences. Also, you can argue that Blood Elves are "arcane based elves," but the Nightborne are a completely different concept of what that means. Alliance high elves have no such distinction, and unlike the Nightborne, their story leaves no room for it. You're comparing a distant cousin to an identical twin.

Nightborne are still another form of "arcane/magic focused elf" they just bring that same concept in through a different view. This was in reference to you implying that a unique combination of already existing traits does not make something unique, when it clearly does and Nightborne are an example of that. You can look back over to discussions when people felt the Nightborne should have gone to Alliance over Horde and you will see many pointing out the similarities between the Nightborne and Blood Elves. Being another arcane focused elf did not stop them from becoming an Allied Race.

Again, varying degrees of difference. You say there is no difference but we already see differences: Paler skin/hair colors, different npc voice chatter, no eye glow. That's not even including that when a race is made playable they get extra customization on top of that (this point also keeps being downplayed, but it is a fact).

Their story in WoW has shown to taken a different turn than what the Blood Elves have gone through. In TBC they weren't being brain washed by their own society to accept their "new faction" (because they've never left the Alliance in the first place, even when their leaders asked them to), we also saw reference in-game to how High Elves regarded Blood Elves ("Don't worry, I'm not a Blood Elf, I won't suck the magic out of you"), and Wrath introduced the human/high elf city of Dalaran where we saw the largest gathering of High Elves. Cata we see Halduron ask Vereesa to help because he holds her fighters in high regard, even against Lor'themar's wishes. MoP exploded the rivalry between High Elves and Blood Elves into a bloody purge. Legion showed us the overall culture of each of the three elven groups: Blood Elves, High Elves, and Night Elves.

Their story leaves room for more for sure, but they already have a lot to work with, certainly much more than races created out of thin air (Void Elves), and similar to other races that haven't done anything major for a long while but got added (Dark Iron Dwarves).

You argue that I'm splitting hairs by saying that high elves don't contribute anything unique, but I'm most definitely not. Nightborne have unique models, fantasy, architecture, and story. No other race looks and feels like a Nightborne.

No I was saying it's splitting hairs to say that the AR system is to bring about unique options, and then say only thing High Elves would bring is a "unique combination of things that exist", because that by definition would be unique and the Nightborne are a prime example of this. Let's take each of your Nightborne points and test High Elves against this:

Unique model: Already pointed out differences between them and Blood Elves, this also isn't taking into consideration extra customization that would be added on top once becoming playable.

Again, the difference between HMT and Mulgore Tauren is Antlers vs Horns, and Tattoos. Dark Iron Dwarves did not have fiery-wicked beards nor tattoos before becoming playable. You can't be someone that is okay with those additions/variations and then say High Elves must strictly stay the same way they are. Even Nightborne got additional hair colors once they became playable.

The model is the easiest thing to change around.

Fantasy: This one High Elves have in spades, they're not haughty, they're not proud and they're not xenophobic. As well as being the minority of their people and choosing loyalty to friends over family, they represent a different moral choice. That's very compelling and this isn't expressed by any current playable race.

Architecture: High Elves have been shown to have architecture similar to Blood Elves with a blue paint job instead, I'll agree there. But they've also been relegated to Lodges as well; lodges that look more Night Elf and clearly not Blood Elf. This is another "easier thing" Blizzard can emphasize/change: the use of lodges for High Elf architecture.

Story: This is another easy one, the High Elf story on Alliance following the split of High Elves and Blood Elves has been different. We already know from Chronicles that even before the split of identities (Blood Elf vs High Elf) there was already a different cultural/personality mindset between those High Elves who lived in human lands/kingdoms (like Dalaran) and those High Elves who stayed within the walls of Quel'thalas. That's strong seeding right there. It's been emphasized through WoW and just needs more brushing up if they become implemented as an Allied Race.

Meanwhile, high elves are already playable.

Cmon, you know this is disingenuous. When people say they want to play High Elves they are specifically talking about that current group of elves on Alliance that still identify themselves as High Elves today.

Do Blood Elves continue to identify themselves as High Elves? No they do not.

It's not about playing a race, if that were the case we would not be having 2nd versions of existing races like another Tauren, another Dwarf, another Draenei, etc.

Also, as from before, we know that Wildhammer Dwarves are something devs know about and discuss cool ideas about. Therefore we know that this player-manufactured "there won't be a 3rd race" isn't true until we see how they deal with Wildhammer Dwarves. Or High Elves for that matter since Ion told off-mic that High Elves not being in BFA doesn't mean they'll never happen.

[Garfurion]

Indeed, in the starting zone of the VE you can see BE and HE studying the void with the title "initiate"

Studying something doesn't mean you want to throw away your life by struggling to resists hearing old god voices until you go insane, which is inevitable for the Void Elves. Their lives are a constant struggle, probably more of a struggle then the destruction of the Sunwell caused.

I also don't recall male gynecology students eventually turning into women

It makes more sense if those initiates want to study the void to find a cure for the Void Elves or they are the explanation for Blood/High Elf shadow priests.

Void Elves are the result of an incomplete transformation against their will so there is no compelling reason why someone would want to go through it. if the transformation process is not interrupted exactly at the right time at the right place by the right person (Alleria) you end up insane, without a body or for all we know as a blob of slime. There are also no indications (that I know off ) that the process can be repeated since it was originally caused by an external source.

Those Blood&High Elf "initiates" are just Blizzards pathetic attempt to link Void Elves to normal elves to entice players to play them.

[FlubberPuddy]

Here is acknowledgement that Nightborne story is similar to Blood Elves:

"Inspiration
The nightborne's story -- that of a magic-addicted race of Highborne elves, dependent on a Well of nourishment, whose leader betrayed them to the Burning Legion -- is very reminiscent of the story of the blood elves, something that is even acknowledged in-universe.[31]"

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Nightborne

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I still believe High Elves are being turned into Void Elves to give true lore fans such as yourself a form of what you want. I wish they would state it explicitly to give you the security that is what is happening. But I believe that as they have not stated that that ISN'T what is happening...and that they have heavily implied High Elves CAN be changed into Void Elves, your best bet maybe to make a leap of faith?

Perhaps not a leap of faith, but I do believe it is the most likely possibility at this point. Like I would be thrilled about AR High Elves, but I really don't think they are likely, so yeh. So within of what I deem possible/likely, adding the HE lore people have been asking to VE feels like the best case scenario for me, and an actual compromise. It would resolve the HE issue, use up their lore, and give VE's much more needed background.

[Garfurion]

You argue that I'm splitting hairs by saying that high elves don't contribute anything unique, but I'm most definitely not.

You could argue similarly that Blood Elves didn't contribute anything unique to the game when they were introduced, apart from a new model, since a tall pale-skinned race which could be paladins (their most defining feature) already existed in game (humans), playable Elves were also already in game (Night Elves) and High Elf culture (which according to some is identical to Blood Elf culture) was also already visible in game for the Alliance.

That didn't stop Blizzard from adding these "Horde Humans" to the game to deliberately blur the difference between the factions ("pretty" paladin race for the Horde).

Out of all the playable races added to the game, the Blood Elves have blurred faction lines the most and gave unique iconic (up to that point) Alliance features to the Horde:
* human-like model with human-like skin-tones
* a light oriented race
* paladins

In comparison the only Horde thing the Alliance got with Draenei was shamans and hooves.

I understand Blizzards reluctance to give an identical Horde playable model to the Alliance but if they were genuinely concerned about blurring factions lines they shouldn't have made a lot of other decisions over the years:

* Horde Paladins & Alliance Shaman
* Removing priest racial abilities (e.g. fearward)
* Non-Night Elf Druids
* Goblins (to give horde a small & techno oriented race)
* Nightborne (Night-Elf Highborne)
* Void Blood Elves

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I assume the Blood Elves without green eyes are simply those who weren't present in Silvermoon during the reconstruction, and never drained Fel energy from either the Burning Crystals or demons. There were probably a few Blood Elves who lived and worked in or around Dalaran even post-collapse, who weren't part of Kael's detachment and so weren't jailed by Garithos on suspicion of treachery. Some may have also been in smaller lodges through the area, or small unremarked-on communities, who while not present to be Fel-tainted still kept their allegiance to Silvermoon when the bulk of the High Elves were exiled. Mana-tapping itself wouldn't bestow the Fel taint (unless you tapped a source of Fel energy), so a few Blood Elves might've kept their original eye coloration.

I don't really know what leads to the golden eye coloration and if it is a recent development or if it was meant to be possible all the time. Based on some depictions of Liadrin I would think the coloration is meant for those individuals with a strong connection to the Light (e.g. Paladins and Priests) and not for the bulk of the Blood Elves, though who can really say. If there are any prominent High Elven Priests or Paladins remaining I would assume this coloration is an open possibility for them as well.

That's my assumption as well; the blue eyed BE that exists are most likely BE's that just weren't around heavy fel usage for any reason. While I do theorize that mana tapping itself might cause green eyes -cause I think that maybe killing a living creature for its energy might itself be a lower form of fel?- We do know that some BE's didn't have to mana tap nor felt the pans, and indeed, any belf with enough access to magic items would have no need for either. So a Belf, with a good supply of magic items, or j simply one less "addicted" to magic by being a Farstrider could have potentially never had gotten green eyes under the right context.

While I would say golden eyes are more likely on priests and paladins, the fact that every BE can pick them does imply it's not necessary, so maybe the explanation has more to do with actively channeling from the Sunwell as something religious maybe? Or perhaps, proximity? There's a lot left to speculation on this so far. The fact we have only seen paladins with golden eyes eyes does imply it's more likely for them, butthat they are possible for everyone suggests another contextual caveat.

Personally I like the proximity one, as we do know that elves are affected by "radiation" as that was the reason they get their colored eyes on the first place.

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Probably just Blizzard making a mistake with skin id's. It took a long time for them to fix Arathor the Redeemer's eyes as well. Blue/Green eyes are meant as visual queues as to the background of the characters.

Given all the demonic energy in Outland all the Alliance Expedition Elves should have had green eyes as well, and perhaps the eyes of all Night Elf player characters should have changed green as well, at least while in Outland.

Probably a mistake, but yeah, we can't really know.

I do disagree with the "every elf on Outland should have green eyes" theory. It just doesn't ring true when entire areas of Outland aren't corrupted by fel. Neither Nagrand and Terrokar seem seeped in fel, and that in fact is in line with Mag'har and blue eyed High Elves existing in Outland. A lot has been made about Outland being seeped in fel, but the evidence suggests some areas just aren't.

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Rather than respond to every single point you have made, let us boil it down. I believe the following occurred. That when the city of Dalaran fell during Warcraft 3, it's community of High Elves was destroyed and scattered to the winds (not necessarily the people). Some went with Jaina to Kalimdor, which is an in game explanation for the fact Mage and Priest units in the Alliance armies during missions set in Kalimdor were High Elves. These individuals later settled in Theramore alongside Jaina.
Some returned with Kael'thas to Silvermoon and became Blood Elves.

Some remained around Dalaran to help them rebuild. When Kael returned at the head of the Blood Elven forces to assist Garithos, he would have shown up before he a.) split with the Alliance b.) went to Outland and sided with Illidan c.) sent Rommath back to teach the Blood Elves how to use those techniques to survive. These Elves would have had almost no reason not to side with their Prince, who lest we forget was the leader of the Thalassian Elf community prior to the fall of the city. There was nothing to schism over.

When Garithos sentenced the Elves did death, he sentenced to death all the Elves associated with Kael i.e. most of them. These escaped. After Garithos' death and the destruction of his army, the Kirin Tor survivors and the few, few Elves who remained them erected a shield and rebuilt the city. Rhonin was elected head of the Kirin Tor. His wife Veressa began organizing the High Elves in the city, whom were not very numerous. The former community had been dominated by Mages. Given the nature of the addiction, it was the Mages who were the first to succumb to Illidan's promises and use the mana draining techniques. A few Magisters remained in Dalaran, but their struggle with the addiction would have been the hardest. These would be the High Elf Magisters of Dalaran, a tiny group (unrepresented on the Kirin Tor council of six).

Veressa issued a rallying cry for any wandering High Elf who disagreed with the decision Silvermoon had made to come and join her. These tended to be ex Farstriders, borne out by the military nature of most remaining High Elves encountered. They had fought with the Alliance during the Second War and part of the Third, and felt a loyalty and kinship to the Alliance. They believed Silvermoon had betrayed the Alliance, not vice versa. Hearing the call of a former Farstrider, a Windrunner no less, they answered her call and arrived. This is the beginning of a new High Elf community in Dalaran, one much smaller than what came previously, but they had a place to start again.

Survivors of the old community, those who had followed Kael but who had lived in Dalaran for millenia, still believed Dalaran was their home. Despite their allegiance to the Horde, this group of primarily Mages listened to the words of Aethas Sunreaver, formed the Sunreavers and returned to the city where they were not only readmitted, but lodged in a recreation of their old quarter (Jaina's flashback placed Kael squarely in the Sunreaver section after all before there even where Sunreavers).

To sum up, the old High Elf community of Mages was destroyed (not killed). A new community formed from High Elf exiles from Silvermoon, drawn by Veressa and including a small fraction of the old High Elf civilian population, was formed. A large section of the old community returned in the form of the Sunreavers and both sides held animosity for each other based on their political opinions.

You are attempting to argue that the Dalaran community of High Elves survived more or less intact and that the Silver Covenant is made up of a majority of that population. Your reason for doing so is to justify the existence of an expatriate community of High Elves that has dwelled in Dalaran for thousands of years as part of the wider argument for an Alliance High Elf allied race. If it is the same people, then they've been apart from Silvermoon for a very long time.

I believe the evidence behind what I believe is much stronger, particularly given that Jaina herself terms the Sunreavers as the elves who taught Humanity magic and the Sunreavers insisted Dalaran was their home. The Sunreavers reacted to the purge precisely how you would expect the long term residents of the city to react under the circumstances. The Sunreavers, those Horde aligned mages, are the expatriate community you believe the Silver Covenant represents. The Silver Covenant consists of those who rejected Silvermoon a mere twelve years ago. There has been no time for differentiation.

Honestly I do believe my explanation is far more simple, as your requires a lot of conjecture and speculation with no supporting evidence.

Cause again, it's far more likely that the SC is just Dalaran High Elves against the BE and the Horde, as there is nothing to suggest they come from somewhere else.

We have no reason to believe "most" elves left with Kael'thas back to Silvermoon, that's the issue. Considering that most of the Dalaran population, the ones evacuated, where mostly civilians, as the fighters stayed to defend the city from Arthas, it actually makes sense for most of that evacuated population to stay safe instead of dangerously returning to Quel'thalas. After this, wherever the Dalaran population was evacuated, we have no confirmation that Kael'thas had ever contact again with the Kirin Tor or any Dalarani populace. So the last time the Dalaran evacuees and Kael saw each other was very likely when he left for Silvermoon.

Again, your point about the Sunreavers is not as strong as you think. It merely means that yes, Sunreavers ARE from the OG teachers of humanity, but not all of them, nor that they were at the time the majority or even a sizable portion of the elven population of Dalaran. I really don't think it's strong evidence at all. At best you have that most of the OG teachers returned with Kael, but you don't know if they are a majority or even particularly large group at the time. Because you are operating under the speculative notion that MOST of the Elves in Dalaran would have been of these OG teachers, which is pure speculation that really desestimates 3000 years of migration.

Specially, considering that the large of the Dalarani Evacuee population would mostly be civilian, there's really no reason to even consider a large portion of them OG teachers.

And that's the thing, you are making a big leap of conjecture claiming that most of the HE population was OG teacher and thus Sunreaver, while also making another huge leap saying that most of the SC would be exiled Farstriders, when again, you have no evidence of that.

I do believe by going Occam's razor about this is the most likely explanation. The Silver Covenant is mostly made of elves of Dalaran that didn't return with Kael to Silvermoon and were radicalized by Vereesa. And again, even they are just a fraction of the overall Kirin Tor population. Because again, how Dalaran was presented in game, the city has a healthy elven population, and the only explanation for that that is simply that... they just didn't went with Kael to Silvermoon, for whatever reason.

[protip]

I used broad strokes to make my point just as there are those that use broad strokes when trying to argue against High Elves when we all know it's a bit more nuanced than that. If one is going to reduce High Elves to broad strokes, I don't see why the same cannot be done for all other Allied Races. Again, there are varying degrees of similarities as differences with each of the Allied Races that already exist. This is increased similarity that High Elves share with Blood Elves is similar to the differences between Highmountain and Mulgore Tauren. Or even the potential Wildhammer Dwarves, which we know devs also excitedly discuss.

Nightborne are the Highborne portion of the Night Elves. They are the Night Elf counterpart of an Allied Race. You can reduce the "purple elves" bit all you want but there is a literal quest in-game making reference to this that I've linked many times, I'll do it one more time though I do not believe you haven't already seen it:

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=49427/...r-purple-elves

It's implying the connection there between Night Elves, which the Nightborne do have whether you'd like to downplay that or not. Again it is all about varying degrees of similarities and differences, that's my main point.



Nightborne are still another form of "arcane/magic focused elf" they just bring that same concept in through a different view. This was in reference to you implying that a unique combination of already existing traits does not make something unique, when it clearly does and Nightborne are an example of that. You can look back over to discussions when people felt the Nightborne should have gone to Alliance over Horde and you will see many pointing out the similarities between the Nightborne and Blood Elves. Being another arcane focused elf did not stop them from becoming an Allied Race.

Again, varying degrees of difference. You say there is no difference but we already see differences: Paler skin/hair colors, different npc voice chatter, no eye glow. That's not even including that when a race is made playable they get extra customization on top of that (this point also keeps being downplayed, but it is a fact).

Their story in WoW has shown to taken a different turn than what the Blood Elves have gone through. In TBC they weren't being brain washed by their own society to accept their "new faction" (because they've never left the Alliance in the first place, even when their leaders asked them to), we also saw reference in-game to how High Elves regarded Blood Elves ("Don't worry, I'm not a Blood Elf, I won't suck the magic out of you"), and Wrath introduced the human/high elf city of Dalaran where we saw the largest gathering of High Elves. Cata we see Halduron ask Vereesa to help because he holds her fighters in high regard, even against Lor'themar's wishes. MoP exploded the rivalry between High Elves and Blood Elves into a bloody purge. Legion showed us the overall culture of each of the three elven groups: Blood Elves, High Elves, and Night Elves.

Their story leaves room for more for sure, but they already have a lot to work with, certainly much more than races created out of thin air (Void Elves), and similar to other races that haven't done anything major for a long while but got added (Dark Iron Dwarves).



No I was saying it's splitting hairs to say that the AR system is to bring about unique options, and then say only thing High Elves would bring is a "unique combination of things that exist", because that by definition would be unique and the Nightborne are a prime example of this. Let's take each of your Nightborne points and test High Elves against this:

Unique model: Already pointed out differences between them and Blood Elves, this also isn't taking into consideration extra customization that would be added on top once becoming playable.

Again, the difference between HMT and Mulgore Tauren is Antlers vs Horns, and Tattoos. Dark Iron Dwarves did not have fiery-wicked beards nor tattoos before becoming playable. You can't be someone that is okay with those additions/variations and then say High Elves must strictly stay the same way they are. Even Nightborne got additional hair colors once they became playable.

The model is the easiest thing to change around.

Fantasy: This one High Elves have in spades, they're not haughty, they're not proud and they're not xenophobic. As well as being the minority of their people and choosing loyalty to friends over family, they represent a different moral choice. That's very compelling and this isn't expressed by any current playable race.

Architecture: High Elves have been shown to have architecture similar to Blood Elves with a blue paint job instead, I'll agree there. But they've also been relegated to Lodges as well; lodges that look more Night Elf and clearly not Blood Elf. This is another "easier thing" Blizzard can emphasize/change: the use of lodges for High Elf architecture.

Story: This is another easy one, the High Elf story on Alliance following the split of High Elves and Blood Elves has been different. We already know from Chronicles that even before the split of identities (Blood Elf vs High Elf) there was already a different cultural/personality mindset between those High Elves who lived in human lands/kingdoms (like Dalaran) and those High Elves who stayed within the walls of Quel'thalas. That's strong seeding right there. It's been emphasized through WoW and just needs more brushing up if they become implemented as an Allied Race.



Cmon, you know this is disingenuous. When people say they want to play High Elves they are specifically talking about that current group of elves on Alliance that still identify themselves as High Elves today.

Do Blood Elves continue to identify themselves as High Elves? No they do not.

It's not about playing a race, if that were the case we would not be having 2nd versions of existing races like another Tauren, another Dwarf, another Draenei, etc.

Also, as from before, we know that Wildhammer Dwarves are something devs know about and discuss cool ideas about. Therefore we know that this player-manufactured "there won't be a 3rd race" isn't true until we see how they deal with Wildhammer Dwarves. Or High Elves for that matter since Ion told off-mic that High Elves not being in BFA doesn't mean they'll never happen.

That's a lot of text, but you've just refused to acknowledge the fact that Blood Elves and Alliance high elves do not fit neatly into two groups. Mulgore tauren and Highmountain tauren are not only from different tribes, but one of them has been blessed by Cenarius in a way the other was not. Nightborne were descended from the Highborne, a group with divergent physical and magical characteristics that were compounded by 10000 years of a different way of life. Even the Wildhammer dwarves are a group with a distinct shared heritage and culture that. On the other hand, everything that binds the various groups of high elves to each other binds them equally to the Blood Elves. The one exception is their political allegiance, which does not constitute a different culture or any kind of physical difference. If a high elf claims to be a Blood Elf, it is true.

There are high elves who lived in Dalaran and became Blood Elves. There are high elves who served with the Alliance in the Second War and became Blood Elves. There is nothing that a high elf can be that a Blood Elf cannot. For that reason, any part of high elf culture reserved for an Alliance allied race should instead be available as Blood Elf customization, because Blood Elves share that culture and players are already invested in the Blood Elf playable race. Splitting what should be a single race's customization options into multiple allied races is unfriendly to players as is, but splitting those options between the two factions introduces visual inconsistency on top of that. I don't think it's a good option for the game overall.

[Fyersing]

That's a lot of text, but you've just refused to acknowledge the fact that they are not different parts of the same race, Blood Elves and Alliance high elves are a single homogeneous group.

I'm all for discussing the merits of playable High Elves, including the many conceptualizations (i.e. WCII-inspired High Elves) that have shown up throughout this thread. That being said, if you're going to preface your commentary with things such as the bit I've bolded, you're obviously intellectually incapable of participating in a discussion that requires an ability to recognize nuance and should just refrain from posting entirely, IMO.

[protip]

I'm all for discussing the merits of playable High Elves, including the many conceptualizations (i.e. WCII-inspired High Elves) that have shown up throughout this thread. That being said, if you're going to preface your commentary with things such as the bit I've bolded, you're obviously intellectually incapable of participating in a discussion that requires an ability to recognize nuance and should just refrain from posting entirely, IMO.

Physiologically, it is true. But in any case, I adjusted the wording before you even posted, so maybe take a moment to breathe before you start talking shit.

[Obelisk Kai]

I'm all for discussing the merits of playable High Elves, including the many conceptualizations (i.e. WCII-inspired High Elves) that have shown up throughout this thread. That being said, if you're going to preface your commentary with things such as the bit I've bolded, you're obviously intellectually incapable of participating in a discussion that requires an ability to recognize nuance and should just refrain from posting entirely, IMO.

No other proposed Allied race in the game requires such an examination of 'nuance' to justify them. I believe 'temperament' has actually been used by some posters in an attempt to manufacture a difference, with High Elves being portrayed as 'nobler' to the more arrogant Blood Elves. Which of course begs the question, would kinder green Orcs qualify as an Allied race of their own accord?

Leaving that aside, Protip is correct. Biologically, thematically and culturally, Blood Elves and High Elves are a homogenous group with the sole difference being their political opinion. In any debate, nuance can be important. But this particular debate revolves around that nuance and trying to use something small and insignificant to pretend Alliance High Elves are an entirely different category from the Blood Elves, which they are not as it was confirmed by the developers that Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

[Fyersing]

Physiologically, it is true. But in any case, I adjusted the wording before you even posted, so maybe take a moment to breathe before you start talking shit.

And precisely zero people believe, based upon your previous posts, that you were explicitly making a statement about their physiology. In any case, let's examine you're new-and-improved-now-100%-more-accurate-edited version:

That's a lot of text, but you've just refused to acknowledge the fact that Blood Elves and Alliance high elves do not fit neatly into two groups.

As I suspected, another falsehood.

Are you a Thalassian who has aligned himself/herself with the Alliance, believing that Quel'thalas joining the Horde was a terrible mistake? You're a High Elf.
Are you a Thalassian who has aligned himself/herself with the Horde, believing that Quel'thalas joining the Horde was a great choice? You're a Blood Elf.

You can't really get more clear than that.