Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

While how an individual views the compromise is subjective, it does not diminish the truth that they are intended as a compromise.

Blizzard clearly views them as a compromise and designed them as a compromise, after all nearly every objection anti High Elfers have raised over the years against playable Alliance High Elves was addressed by Void Elves.

Further proof can be found in that Ion commented that Void Elves are Blood Elves (who are High Elves) with their own unique flavour. Alex Afrisiabi nodded along to the Lost Codex questioner when that questioner said that he considered the Void Elves filled the High Elf niche for the Alliance.

Your objection to the Void Elves, and the reason you do not regard them as a compromise, is that they are not based on the High Elves that have been in the Alliance for the past decade, which for all intents and purposes means the Elves of the Silver Covenant. You have said that you would accept Void Elves had it been shown that they were created out of Silver Covenant High Elves.

Yet many others rejection of the compromise was not rooted in the Void Elves not being High Elves, but in Void Elves being aesthetically distinct from High Elves.

I didn't think it would bear saying, but my opinions are my own, not based on transient or current community trends. More so, I distinctly remember that many raised the lore issues as well during those threads, and how they would have been okay if the VE were made out of HE's, so it really feels you are nitpicking the whole thing, even when I don't think the then consensus as you frame it has any relevance to my point of what a compromise is.

I will only speak as someone that wants High Elves because of their lore, so any "compromise" that is based solely in aesthetics will mean less to me than others than focus only on the aesthetics. But you cannot dismiss the lore issues because, on your perception, more people simply care about the aesthetics. You cannot distill the reasons why people want HE's for one reason, and personally, I am on the side that cares about their lore.

More so, try to dismiss the validity of that stance, because other people care only about the aesthetic, is simply a shitty thing to do.

The great misinterpretation of compromise here is that the purpose of a compromise is to make everyone happy. Therefore if you don't like what was suggested, it is not a compromise.

This is incorrect.

A compromise is a settlement designed to make as many people as possible moderately happy by giving them something, yet taking away something else. The Void Elf compromise awarded Alliance players the option to use what had previously been a Horde unique model and a group who were, lore wise, thalassian elves. What the Horde got was that this race would be drained of the theme, aesthetic and culture that defined Blood and High Elves and given their own unique flavour. While the model became shared, the essence of what a Blood/High Elf is remains unique to the Horde. It is an imperfect result, a compromise by it's very nature is imperfect.

The problem is that Void Elves are neither a compromise for the people that only want the HE aesthetic, nor the people that want HE's because of the lore. Currently they aren't a compromise for either camp. How are they a compromise if no helfer is getting anything, it's ridiculous.

Void Elves are at best a compromise for people that wanted to look like a BE on the Alliance, that's it. What do people that wanted High Elves got? Nothing really, as it is not a comprimise for people that care about the lore, nor people that you claim to be the majority, and just wanted the aesthetic.

VE's are not a compromise on either looks or lore, no wonder barely anyone who wanted HE's considers them a compromise at all. It FAILS as a compromise, becase it's making almost no one who wanted High Elves happy, because no one ever asked for Void Elves. And again, if they would have given them at least a HE background, that would have been a compromise for SOME, at least more people than feel its a good compromise now.

That's why VE's are a failure as a compromise. Almost NO ONE on the pro helf side is happy with them, when at least SOME could have been with better lore.

As a final comment, I dislike your view of a spectrum of compromise along which High Elves can be successfully differentiated. The use of the word spectrum implies breadth of options. In my opinion, Void Elves tip toe right to the line of going too far and hurting the faction integrity of the Horde. They look like Blood/High Elves and have a lore origin with Silvermoon. With Void Elves we are at the edge of tolerable, the differences between them and Blood/High Elves are minute as things stand. The spectrum between a Void Elf and a Blood/High Elf is exceedingly narrow and it pushes credibility to presume that demeanor, stance and animations that are slightly different from a Blood Elf would be enough support meaningful differentiation would be enough to supply meaningful differentiation with an Alliance High Elf. It would not. Both races occupy the same cultural, thematic and aesthetic space because they are the same race.

Honestly this is just your inability to see that culture, ideology and politics can create a unique identity for any group, and are stuck on the notion that the only valid distinction can be made through race. I find this notion utterly limited.

To say that both groups HAVE to occupy the same "cultural, thematic and aesthetic space because they are the same race" is ridiculous, because that's tantamount to say defines your identity in a way cultural context and environment can't change, and I really cannot stress how much I disagree with that notion.

[roahn the warlock]

I have no objection to darker skin tones for thalassian elves, but as an idea for differentiation with the Blood Elves they come with a lot of unpleasant connotations. If those skin tones are provided, there is an absolutely no reason why they would not be an option for Blood Elves too.
@Fyersing this is the sort of thing regarding differentiation I am on about by the way.

There is actually reason for this. In lore, the more fair your skin, the more attuned to magic you are. The darker (more night elvish) is seen as not magically gifted, and they could very well be ostracized from the Blood elven fel-blood society.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

There is actually reason for this. In lore, the more fair your skin, the more attuned to magic you are. The darker (more night elvish) is seen as not magically gifted, and they could very well be ostracized from the Blood elven fel-blood society.

Wut, how does this even make sense when we have Nightborne lol.

Weird headcanon to have, specially one that is against evidence.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

High Elves should have brown-orange skin with african american textured hair. Blue, purple or aqua blue eyes. Silver and light blue theme colors. They are focused on utilizing nature through arcane magic. They should have a skeleton and body type mixed between Night Elves and Blood Elf, more akin to Belves.

[Varx]

This high elf lore BS excuse is so pitiful. It's like Alliance bitching about not having Houjin Pandaren instead of Tushui.

So if Void Elves where turned High Elves instead of exiled Blood Elves, you guys would be cool with VE's. Give me a break....

If it means so damn much make pretend your damn toon used to be a Helf. If I'm not mistaken there are Helf NPC's in the void elf area.

[matrix123mko]

High Elves should have brown-orange skin with african american textured hair. Blue, purple or aqua blue eyes. Silver and light blue theme colors. They are focused on utilizing nature through arcane magic. They should have a skeleton and body type mixed between Night Elves and Blood Elf, more akin to Belves.

Why would Blizzard retcon their appearance? This is as weird idea as making dwarves mongols now.

[FlubberPuddy]

If it means so damn much make pretend your damn toon used to be a Helf. If I'm not mistaken there are Helf NPC's in the void elf area.

We should say the same things to those Dark Iron Dwarf, Mag'har, Lightforged, Highmountain and especially Nightborne (Night Elf mage) fans too then right?

This is the entire point of the Allied Race system. To give these races that have faction loyalty to either Horde or Alliance. The High Elves on Alliance today aren't loyal to the Horde. The Void Elves are newcomers, who as said my Magister Umbric himself to all VE players, have to work toward gaining that trust. High Elves that are on Alliance today have been loyal before WoW even came to be and continue to be.

What a stupid thing to say, especially since it looks like something will be forthcoming for Wildhammer Dwarves who are essentially only differentiated by tattoos.

Make believe =/= actually having that faction-aligned race playable.

I'm sure you know this but are just choosing to be obtuse.

[Varx]

We should say the same things to those Dark Iron Dwarf, Mag'har, Lightforged, Highmountain and especially Nightborne (Night Elf mage) fans too then right?

This is the entire point of the Allied Race system. To give these races that have faction loyalty to either Horde or Alliance. The High Elves on Alliance today aren't loyal to the Horde. The Void Elves are newcomers, who as said my Magister Umbric himself to all VE players, have to work toward gaining that trust. High Elves that are on Alliance today have been loyal before WoW even came to be and continue to be.

What a stupid thing to say, especially since it looks like something will be forthcoming for Wildhammer Dwarves who are essentially only differentiated by tattoos.

Make believe =/= actually having that faction-aligned race playable.

I'm sure you know this but are just choosing to be obtuse.

Except that the allied race system IS NOT an excuse to make every faction that is loyal to either the Horde or Alliance playable. You're not going to get wildhammer dwarves, forest trolls, ice trolls, high elves, eredar, etc because their "core race" has already been used up.

Helves wouldn't even be a reskin of a core race which makes it even more laughable.

The only exception to this are Nightborne and male zandalari since male Zanda use the nelf rig. However, it's ok since its heavily modified and is a complete different race/skin.

Anyone is a fool if they seriously think the Alliance will get the Belf Model AGAIN with little to no mods instead of a gnome or worgen allied race.

The best you'll get are additional velf mods and even then is pushing it. But keep advocating for something that will never happen.

[FlubberPuddy]

Except that the allied race system IS NOT an excuse to make every faction that is loyal to either the Horde or Alliance playable. You're not going to get wildhammer dwarves, forest trolls, ice trolls, high elves, eredar, etc because their "core race" has already been used up.

High Elves are but 1 of the many factions loyal to Alliance: Wildhammer dwarf, Highborne, Broken, High elf, Frost dwarf, Jinyu, Furbolg

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Alliance

No one ever said it's to make every faction playable.

Oh you really didn't see the news regarding likes of Wildhammer Dwarves seems like. Here: https://www.wowhead.com/news=288498/...ns-flying-in-n

About character customizations, can we expect more of them?

JF: We're definitely looking for more ideas from the community. I know that there are particular groups of Dwarves that really wanna be a Wildhammer member and have all those awesome tattoos, and these ideas ultimately result in us having very nerdy conversations on the whiteboard talking about "oh this is a great idea!", so please, keep shoving those ideas at us, we love hearing them!

If they're iterating on ideas about WH I'm sure those players have something to look forward to in that regard. This "there's only going to be 2.0 of races" is a player-made assumption when developers haven't said "nope sorry no more dwarves ever" or the likes of other races etc.

Helves wouldn't even be a reskin of a core race which makes it even more laughable.

You truly must be out of the loop since it's one of the taglines that Obelisk and other major "Anti-Helves" keep using, that Helves would be a re-skin of a Core Race to Horde (Blood Elves).

The only exception to this are Nightborne and male zandalari since male Zanda use the nelf rig. However, it's ok since its heavily modified and is a complete different race/skin.

Void Elves have no modifications beyond skin tones/hair colors/hairstyle options. Same goes for Mag'har, Lightforged, HMT, Dark Iron. The precedent is not that rigs must be unique, the precedent is that there only needs to be enough unique customization options (skin color, hair color/hairstyles, accessories, etc). All things that can be done to High Elves to reflect their differences from Blood Elves - some of which are already in the game right now such as much paler skins, non-glowy eyes in various blue shades, different npc voice chatter, and hair color like light blue (which is only on Blood Elf DKs, and not the common Blood Elf).

Anyone is a fool if they seriously think the Alliance will get the Belf Model AGAIN with little to no mods instead of a gnome or worgen allied race.

The best you'll get are additional velf mods and even then is pushing it. But keep advocating for something that will never happen.

While some may be trying to get High Elves added in immediately, this has never been my view, I already knew before Ion's Q/A that High Elves wouldn't be coming so soon on the heels of Void Elves.

It's clear they're doing the rounds for each AR race. But once this first round of them completes, then Elves will have the possibility again on both sides. And I'd be hard pressed to find any more Elves other than High Elves that fit the bill for Alliance. Just like no other dwarf for Alliance fits any more than Wildhammer.

As for "the best you'll get are additional velf mods" we'll just have to see. The developers haven't said any concrete plans to that being the most they can do. Only that it could happen and to not give up hope on the discussion.

If you believe it won't ever happen then I'm not sure what the point is of coming in and saying that more than once? It doesn't need to be repeated and adds nothing to the discussion.

[Varx]

That comment he made about WH dwarves seems to be made in the sense that the tatoos would be added as additional customization options for current dwarves.

Also i doubt that AR system will continue to be used to introduce multiple variants of races once the core races have been used at least once.

They should focus their efforts on adding more options to existing races. Blue eyes and tattoos would go nicely for belves and it would fit the lore after the cleansing of the sunwell.

[FlubberPuddy]

That comment he made about WH dwarves seems to be made in the sense that the tatoos would be added as additional customization options for current dwarves.

Also i doubt that AR system will continue to be used to introduce multiple variants of races once the core races have been used at least once.

They should focus their efforts on adding more options to existing races. Blue eyes and tattoos would go nicely for belves and it would fit the lore after the cleansing of the sunwell.

If you look at the previous question before that, actually with Allied Races, it sounds like they are doing things on a case by case basis.

Do you have any plans for Allied Races after the Kul Tirans and Zandalari Trolls?

JF: I feel like Allied Races are an awesome addition to the game. You have seen us taking this system in a bunch of directions now, we kinda pieced it apart, we've added Allied races and then we said "hey, wait a minute, I like being a Dwarf!", so we added a Dwarf heritage armor set. We added that, then we thought about Blood Elves wanting golden eyes or Night Elves, what do they get? So they got different customization options. So we really like the different levels of player customizations that came out of this and we're definitely not done yet, but we don't have anything to announce today.

This comes right before the character customization question. As I said it sounds like they're adding things to races on a case by case basis.

There could be some further iteration of the Allied Race/Character Customization system that we haven't seen yet that Blizzard is working on. Especially when they mention "oh this is a cool idea".

It would be pretty weird for instance to just add Wildhammer tattoos to Bronzebeards and then say, "okay there ya go there's your Wildhammer Dwarf" and you wear that Mountain King Heritage Armor and it's nothing like the flavor of a Wildhammer, just some tattoos slapped onto Bronzebeard.

If that is the direction they wanted to take then AR like Mag'har wouldn't exist and would just be added to existing Orcs. Especially since Mag'har and Green Orc culture is the same (Orcish customs and all that being the same between the two).

And as for Blue Eyes and Tattoos on Belves, you say this in a genuine sounding manner so I'll give a genuine response to it. Alleria currently holds that Aesthetic and she's Alliance. There are a lot of High Elves on Alliance side. Blizzard has done their best to continue showing that Blue Eyes Thalassian Elf = High Elf and Green/Gold Eyes Thalassian Elf = Blood Elf (this is the main reason I don't see Blood Elves ever getting those options).

Yeah there's like 2 unexplained, unimportant named Horde faction BE that have Blue Eyes, but I would take that to be buggy exceptions rather than conscious truth on Blizzard's part since they have never explained why those couple NPCs are like that and they don't do anything vs the 7th Legion/SC High Elf forces that actually help the Alliance and have a progressed narrative (Silver Covenant).

Besides, it's clear that Blizzard is big on visuals right? Well for Blood Elves the big signifier for them being who they are today are their Green (and now Gold) Eyes. It would be like requesting the current Green Orcs to go back to having Brown Skin. That's their "birthmark" their "identifier" for their people. Adding Brown skins to Green Orcs dismantles their lore, just like adding Blue Eyes to Blood Elves would dismantle their lore.

[Vasaru]

High Elves should have brown-orange skin with african american textured hair. Blue, purple or aqua blue eyes. Silver and light blue theme colors. They are focused on utilizing nature through arcane magic. They should have a skeleton and body type mixed between Night Elves and Blood Elf, more akin to Belves.

Americans..

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, I am clearly the one who is too emotionally invested on this topic.

Yes, you are. You spend a lot more time here than I do. I got a little upset and overreacted once, and it was months ago and you still remember it and bring it up.
Meanwhile you have more than ten times the post count compared to mine.
Get a hobby.

[Obelisk Kai]

Yes, you are. You spend a lot more time here than I do. I got a little upset and overreacted once, and it was months ago and you still remember it and bring it up.
Meanwhile you have more than ten times the post count compared to mine.
Get a hobby.

You overreacted once?

I see why you like him then since he's an obnoxious little prick who lives and dies on these forums. Welcome to my ignore list.

Infracted.

Stop screaming for attention. No one likes you.

Why bother responding then? You seem like the kind of cunt who gets off by being annoying, judging by your sig.

Go away weeb. No one likes you.

We don't use the letter ø in Sweden, you moronic left-wing twat.

infracted - minor flaming

Now you're just being a cunt.
Get out of this thread already.

You are a fountain of toxicity.

[Aucald]

This thread is getting a bit too close to discussing moderation - let's not get off topic by discussing user behavior. Return to the topic at hand.

[Evilfish]

But then the argument is that the most relevant thing is to continue to High Elf narrative, so the point of how "unchanged" High Elves are is a spectrum of compromise rather than a zero/sum game.

THAT'S the reason Void Elves aren't a compromise, simply because they don't follow nor continue that Alliance High Elven Narrative.

You deciding on what would be a compromise and getting exactly what you wanted all along is not a compromise. Keep trying.

[Obelisk Kai]

I didn't think it would bear saying, but my opinions are my own, not based on transient or current community trends. More so, I distinctly remember that many raised the lore issues as well during those threads, and how they would have been okay if the VE were made out of HE's, so it really feels you are nitpicking the whole thing, even when I don't think the then consensus as you frame it has any relevance to my point of what a compromise is.

I will only speak as someone that wants High Elves because of their lore, so any "compromise" that is based solely in aesthetics will mean less to me than others than focus only on the aesthetics. But you cannot dismiss the lore issues because, on your perception, more people simply care about the aesthetics. You cannot distill the reasons why people want HE's for one reason, and personally, I am on the side that cares about their lore.

More so, try to dismiss the validity of that stance, because other people care only about the aesthetic, is simply a shitty thing to do.

While I understand you and several others care about lore, I believe the evidence and feedback on the forums shows that more people care about aesthetics. Ion was clearly under the impression that aesthetics were the issue when he ruled out playable High Elves and you cannot argue he was mistaken to have that impression given the feedback Blizzard received. The best that can be argued is that he had an incomplete picture but I would argue he was not wrong.
There is a perception that what is really sought is a fair skinned, blue eyed, blonde haired elf and that it doesn't matter how this is achieved, as long as it is the end result. And the reason this perception exists is that, for a large number of people, it is true.

The reason I bring this up is not to belittle your attachment to the lore, but to illustrate how the pro High Elf movement maybe perceived outside of itself.

The problem is that Void Elves are neither a compromise for the people that only want the HE aesthetic, nor the people that want HE's because of the lore. Currently they aren't a compromise for either camp. How are they a compromise if no helfer is getting anything, it's ridiculous.

Void Elves are at best a compromise for people that wanted to look like a BE on the Alliance, that's it. What do people that wanted High Elves got? Nothing really, as it is not a comprimise for people that care about the lore, nor people that you claim to be the majority, and just wanted the aesthetic.

You say Void Elves are at best a compromise for people who wanted to look like a Blood Elf on the Alliance. Yes, exactly. That is exactly the compromise. They provided the model and a variant of the people to those players. Given that Void Elves are the most popular Allied race, Blizzard was proved correct in the compromise.

Remember, the fundamental problem here is that Blood Elves are High Elves. As Blood Elves are already playable and are a core Horde race, a variant could only be defined by moving away from the High Elf ideal embodied by the Blood Elves. .

VE's are not a compromise on either looks or lore, no wonder barely anyone who wanted HE's considers them a compromise at all. It FAILS as a compromise, becase it's making almost no one who wanted High Elves happy, because no one ever asked for Void Elves. And again, if they would have given them at least a HE background, that would have been a compromise for SOME, at least more people than feel its a good compromise now.
That's why VE's are a failure as a compromise. Almost NO ONE on the pro helf side is happy with them, when at least SOME could have been with better lore.

While you may have a point in that the Void Elves were depicted as former Blood Elves rather than Silver Covenant High Elves, in the end that has to be seen as a minor consideration. Particularly as it is implied that some High Elves are in fact being turned into Void Elves. The implication has not been refuted. Most of the pushback against the suggestion Void Elves can turn other Elves comes from pro High Elfers, who do not wish to deal with the consequences if that was to confirmed to be the case.

As for nobody on the pro High Elf side asking for Void Elves, of course nobody asked for them. Nobody even conceived they existed. But Void Elves exist because of the request. Blizzard was almost certainly never going to give the Alliance playable High Elves, and they told us why. Because Blood Elves are High Elves, it damages the faction wall. When you look at Void Elves, you can almost see the underlying thought processes they went through as they considered High Elves due to the requests, rejected them and then refashioned a variant that would give the Alliance the model but preserve the theme and aesthetic to the Horde.

Honestly this is just your inability to see that culture, ideology and politics can create a unique identity for any group, and are stuck on the notion that the only valid distinction can be made through race. I find this notion utterly limited.

To say that both groups HAVE to occupy the same "cultural, thematic and aesthetic space because they are the same race" is ridiculous, because that's tantamount to say defines your identity in a way cultural context and environment can't change, and I really cannot stress how much I disagree with that notion.

The entire basis of distinction in this game is race. Every Allied race has a justified level of differentiation from their parent. Basing a differentiation purely on minor differences goes against the grain of how the factions work in world of warcraft. I did not impose the limitations you see, Blizzard did when they created a race based faction system they clearly still care about.

High Elves being differentiated as you described would be forced, done for the sake of justifying their inclusion as a playable race. This goes against common sense and in game lore. Common sense in that twelve years is not enough to provide a believe level of difference, and in game lore which shows High Elves are NOT differentiating. They are either clinging to their traditions or, when they do differentiate, they are not creating a new ethos for the sake of it but assimilating into a Human culture (as Elisande said).

There is actually reason for this. In lore, the more fair your skin, the more attuned to magic you are. The darker (more night elvish) is seen as not magically gifted, and they could very well be ostracized from the Blood elven fel-blood society.

As others have stated, that doesn't make sense considering the Nightborne. The trigger for the transformation into thalassian elves was a loss of connection to the second well of eternity, that sustained Night Elven immortality. No canonical answer has been provided as to why this manifested as a loss of height, a change in skin pigmentation and a loss of overall strength but we can speculate that without some kind of magic source, the thalassian elves physically weakened and the Sunwell stabilised and prevented any further physical degradation.

[Rozz]

You deciding on what would be a compromise and getting exactly what you wanted all along is not a compromise. Keep trying.

Every time I come to this thread, I'm in pain. It's always some mess like this and incredibly unreasonable. Of course I've seen some interesting solutions--that have all been largely ignored by the louder voice on this thread demanding specific things they know won't come--but some people are willing to make real compromise with realistic situations.

But either way, I fully expect HEs to be fazed out via either: lore genocide, giving blue eyed customization options to the BEs, or doubling down on void aesthetic and never adding a HE one. Honestly they could do all three at once, too. I also don't think Blizzard will have their minds changed, bc they gave their answer multiple times. I also never saw them say they were open to changing it either, so I don't get why people are so passionate as if papa Ion gave them his 'good ear' and not a void slap in the face.

[Vasaru]

You overreacted once?
You are a fountain of toxicity.

I was in a dark place back then. I've made good progress since You, however, still have that toxic signature.
You also keep arguing against something other people want because it doesn't suit you. You actively try to prevent people from having something they think would make the game more enjoyable.

Do what I did and take a break from the game. I promise you'll feel better if you worry less about the game and spend less time on forums.

[Obelisk Kai]

I was in a dark place back then. I've made good progress since You, however, still have that toxic signature.
You also keep arguing against something other peoplewant because it doesn't suit you. You actively try to prevent people from having something they would make the game more enjoyable.

Do what I did and take a break from the game. I promise you'll feel better if you worry less about the game and spend less time on forums.

The forums should not be the place for you to vent your personal issues against other people. If you have made good progress I am happy for you, however your recent post history still shows you are prone to personal attacks without debating the actual content and that is in other threads besides this one.

I have explained numerous times why I am against playable Alliance High Elves. If you wish to boil that down me being a killjoy trying to stop people having fun, that is your mistake. If you consider the words of the developers on this matter toxic, I would advise you to review what toxic behaviour actually is.

[Vasaru]

I have explained numerous times why I am against playable Alliance High Elves

So move on then. You've made your point.

I still think quitting would be good for you.