1. #8101
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Given the number of people who started getting excited at even the possibility of High Elf like skin tones on Void Elves, I believe you over-estimate how many of your fellow travellers care about the lore of the High Elves.

    Should those kind of skin tones ever be granted to the Void Elves, if it satisfies them (and I don't think it would as there is a world of difference between High Elf LIKE and High Elf EXACT), they would throw you and the others who care about High Elf lore under the bus faster than you can blink.
    And I wouldn't care TBH. I speak for myself at the end of the day, and myself only.

    And perhaps in that alternate timeline where VE's were made out of High Elves, we would be both laughing at people that just want to be a pretty blonde HE. But TBH if they give VE's HE skin options I would hope they do so by adding HE's to them otherwise what even.

  2. #8102
    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    True, though i wonder if the BE take some of the NB fruit, will they get blue eyes? (i assume)...

    Either way... i have always though that one of the best "shows" for HE that we have in game is Nozdormus.



    He looks amazing (IMHO) but it uses completely different animations compared to BE (It uses NE animations -just like BE used to have before BC)

    Note: They wouldn't have tattoos like that though (a shame) but i guess they could have some like Alleria
    He is amazing yes, but so are all main characters of the story. Blizzard always gives unique models to the leaders or relevant characters

    Also in this thread there are many awesome fan made tattoos for high elves. I was amazed with their creativity.

  3. #8103
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangerDaz View Post
    We both have already discussed this a lot

    Honestly im quite tired after so many replies given today, so forgive me if i dont write a new elaborated answer for you this time. I think all the explanations i gave in this last hour could somehow help to show why we both chronically disagree in this issue lol.
    Yes I started going through my posts chronologically from where I last left off and saw the discussion. I get why people disagree but on this occasion you really are just incorrect. All the lore shows all thalassian elves feel the radiance of the Sunwell and that it sustains them, so Blood Elves and High Elves are subject to the same changes.

    The presumption now of course is that the Void Elf connection to the well was severed by their transformation, because I imagine it would be like being injected with acid otherwise. But there is a story rationale behind why the Void Elves don't feed on the Sunwell. That has not happened to the High Elves. Like the Blood Elves, they were bereft by it's destruction and they were saved by it's restoration.

  4. #8104
    The developers are clearly biased towards the Horde. Ion mains an Orc Shaman (enough said). The developers constantly make fun of the fact that Alliance mounts in this expansion are pathetic. The developers even insulted at a personal level Alliance PVP players at Blizzcon 2018. So long as these people are in charge of the game, High Elves will never be playable.

    Of course if you put a Vereesa fanboy in charge of the game, High Elves will suddenly be different enough from Blood Elves to qualify as an Allied Race.

    You people are delusional if you're seriously convinced that lore matters here. Lore bends to the will of the developers, and that will never change.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  5. #8105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That culture and fantasy is the Blood Elf culture and fantasy. It is already available.
    No, i mean... the fantasy of the group of exiles that evade the corruption of their people.

    I believe the Void Elves can turn other elves into Void Elves. It isn't explicitly stated they cannot. If a Void Elf is acceptable should it have originated within the Alliance, it is possible to roleplay a High Elf who has adopted the void. Just because it is not explicitly stated either way should not preclude this option.
    Indeed, in the starting zone of the VE you can see BE and HE studying the void with the title "initiate"

  6. #8106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    Wait.... If anyone is against that idea, it would be the HE fans, and it makes sense, as it would literally mean that HE will never be a thing and that they will have to play the Horde (and many HE fans are also Alliance fans), so i doubt that would make anyone happy.
    Well if they're HE fans they were lying to me, I had a argument in a discord (Not the HE one) a few weeks ago...I was talking about High Elves in the channel's WoW channel and I said I'd be fine with Belves getting blue eyes and they kept telling me how it was wrong and it would break lore. (One even told me it could never happen because the Sunwell is full holy and I showed them that it was a mix of arcane and holy.)

    Another gave me a argument that it couldn't happen because High Elves are different from Blood Elves (While also copying and pasting what Ion said about Blood Elves are High Elves mind you) and they said that it would mess with the game and their identity I asked why if Alliance doesn't have playable High Elves how will it really mess with the game? Never got a answer to that one. Basically said it you can't have it both ways...High Elves can't be Blood Elves if High Elves are different from Blood Elves...they kept going on cherry picking till a moderator had to come in and stop it for basically being a run on topic because they kept going around and around using the same few contradictory lines as their defense.

  7. #8107
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    And I wouldn't care TBH. I speak for myself at the end of the day, and myself only.

    And perhaps in that alternate timeline where VE's were made out of High Elves, we would be both laughing at people that just want to be a pretty blonde HE. But TBH if they give VE's HE skin options I would hope they do so by adding HE's to them otherwise what even.
    I still believe High Elves are being turned into Void Elves to give true lore fans such as yourself a form of what you want. I wish they would state it explicitly to give you the security that is what is happening. But I believe that as they have not stated that that ISN'T what is happening...and that they have heavily implied High Elves CAN be changed into Void Elves, your best bet maybe to make a leap of faith?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorotia View Post
    Well if they're HE fans they were lying to me, I had a argument in a discord (Not the HE one) a few weeks ago...I was talking about High Elves in the channel's WoW channel and I said I'd be fine with Belves getting blue eyes and they kept telling me how it was wrong and it would break lore. (One even told me it could never happen because the Sunwell is full holy and I showed them that it was a mix of arcane and holy.)

    Another gave me a argument that it couldn't happen because High Elves are different from Blood Elves (While also copying and pasting what Ion said about Blood Elves are High Elves mind you) and they said that it would mess with the game and their identity I asked why if Alliance doesn't have playable High Elves how will it really mess with the game? Never got a answer to that one. Basically said it you can't have it both ways...High Elves can't be Blood Elves if High Elves are different from Blood Elves...they kept going on cherry picking till a moderator had to come in and stop it for basically being a run on topic because they kept going around and around using the same few contradictory lines as their defense.
    To be fair I've not seen anyone who is anti High Elf argue that Blood Elves shouldn't have a blue eye option. I find it extremely weird that this occurred. Usually those against Blood Elves getting blue eyes are pro High Elfers who wish to save the blue eyes for the playable High Elf race and who feel if Blood Elves get the option it's another nail in the coffin of the dream. Which it would be, but I don't see why a valid customization option for Blood Elves should be restricted for a race that is almost certainly never going to be added.

  8. #8108
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Alleria Windrunner View Post
    You people are delusional if you're seriously convinced that lore matters here. Lore bends to the will of the developers, and that will never change.
    About the only thing that makes sense.

    But it's to be expected that Horde bias would come into the discussion. Still, how would you tell Belf players that they are just gonna rip them off again cause, well, just cause some guys didn't think the Velfs hit the spot and got really vocal about it. Wouldn't that seem like bias to them?

    But you know what? I suspect another belf clone wil be available when this game has to go free to play. Then the Helf fans can buy their fetish from the store website.

    And even then I suspect it won't be good enough.

  9. #8109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorotia View Post
    Well if they're HE fans they were lying to me, I had a argument in a discord (Not the HE one) a few weeks ago...I was talking about High Elves in the channel's WoW channel and I said I'd be fine with Belves getting blue eyes and they kept telling me how it was wrong and it would break lore. (One even told me it could never happen because the Sunwell is full holy and I showed them that it was a mix of arcane and holy.)

    Another gave me a argument that it couldn't happen because High Elves are different from Blood Elves (While also copying and pasting what Ion said about Blood Elves are High Elves mind you) and they said that it would mess with the game and their identity I asked why if Alliance doesn't have playable High Elves how will it really mess with the game? Never got a answer to that one. Basically said it you can't have it both ways...High Elves can't be Blood Elves if High Elves are different from Blood Elves...they kept going on cherry picking till a moderator had to come in and stop it for basically being a run on topic because they kept going around and around using the same few contradictory lines as their defense.
    Weird, though i agree that the BE wouldn't get Blue eyes from the Sunwell (as we already know what the new Sunwell has done to them), but they just need a tap of the NB juice and done (wow, that sounds worse than i imagined) -Get the fruit from the Arcandor- (the same way as i see plausible for some NB to start tapping into the Sunwell and get golden eyes and golden tattoos)

  10. #8110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    It would be interesting to say the least.

    [IMG]https://66.media.tumblr.com/87eb1c1233f0ac1f62e34bbd876ae81c/tumblr_inline_oeajbsPuj41qga66v_540.png[IMG]

    Maybe not....
    They've assimilated into human culture.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  11. #8111
    But it's to be expected that Horde bias would come into the discussion.
    It's true. Prove me wrong, after Blizzard mocked Alliance players at Blizzcon by insulting them, and with Ion who mains an Orc Shaman (nothing screams "HORDE" more than that race-class combination).

    I don't care about High Elves, but let's be real, if Ion were replaced by a fan of Vereesa, the lore would be bent so that High Elves make sense as a playable race. But with Ion in charge? Don't expect any love given to the Alliance. They are too busy making a third full-CGI cinematic for Saurfang's boring storyline which is just Vol'jin 2.0.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2018-11-17 at 10:16 PM.
    Expansion Storylines ranking:

    Legion > Cataclysm > MoP > BfA up to 8.2.5 > Wrath > TBC > WoD > Dragonflight > BfA 8.3 > Shadowlands

  12. #8112
    Quote Originally Posted by Queen Alleria Windrunner View Post
    It's true. Prove me wrong, after Blizzard mocked Alliance players at Blizzcon by insulting them, and with Ion who mains an Orc Shaman (nothing screams "HORDE" more than that race-class combination).

    I don't care about High Elves, but let's be real, if Ion were replaced by a fan of Vereesa, the lore would be bent so that High Elves make sense as a playable race. But with Ion in charge? Don't expect any love given to the Alliance. They are too busy making a third full-CGI cinematic for Saurfang's boring storyline which is just Vol'jin 2.0.
    So if Ion would roll Alliance instead, that wouldn't be bias?

    Look, I'm not saying that some of the devs aren't biased, like us they enjoy part of the game and some of them might have chosen Horde as much as others have chosen to go Alliance, but specifically alienating one half of their players cause, I don't know, is not a reasonable assumption and certainly not a reason to request stuff.

    I'm not familiar with the Blizzcon insult however.

    And it's kind of amusing that Ion plays a shaman considering how much that class sucked.

    So using this exact subject, giving another version of the belf to the Alliance translates how to the considerable part of the Horde that plays belfs? I mean it's not the first time it happens. How do you justify doing it again for a bunch of people whose only argument is that they really want the respective clone. It's bias unless they don't?
    Last edited by Evilfish; 2018-11-18 at 08:48 AM.

  13. #8113
    I often read in this thread that people aren't asking for a copy of Blood Elves on the Alliance, but that is just what high elves are. Kul Tiran humans may be visually different from Stormwind humans, but all of the options are available to Alliance players. Having the standard human model as an option for Kul Tiran humans would be fine by me, but is largely redundant. There is no precedent for an arbitrary separation of visual customization options between factions, nor should there be. Elves should not arbitrarily gain 50 pounds because they're wearing a blue tabard instead of a red one. There has to be a visual disparity between models that is proportional to its basis, and I don't believe that it is possible for high elves to be different enough from Blood Elves without changing what high elves are or sacrificing the integrity of the relationship between the model and what it represents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    No, i mean... the fantasy of the group of exiles that evade the corruption of their people.
    That fantasy can exist in any new race, and arguably already does in the Mag'har orcs. If you're asking for that while also being a Thalassian elf in addition to being a member of the Alliance, I think you're just asking Blizzard to give up too much. The real problem with high elves as an independent playable race is that they don't contribute unique options, only a unique combination of options that already exist. None of the existing playable races are like that. At least for me, it represents a lower standard for playable races, even allied races.

  14. #8114
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    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    That fantasy can exist in any new race, and arguably already does in the Mag'har orcs. If you're asking for that while also being a Thalassian elf in addition to being a member of the Alliance, I think you're just asking Blizzard to give up too much. The real problem with high elves as an independent playable race is that they don't contribute unique options, only a unique combination of options that already exist. None of the existing playable races are like that. At least for me, it represents a lower standard for playable races, even allied races.
    Yes, is like the fantasy of the Mag'har Orcs but more regal, i do agree that the HE by themselves and how they are right now are not unique enough to be an allied race (but when it comes to looks that can easily be solved), sadly their appearance in Dalaran doesn't show much of their culture and how they have evolved (if at all)

  15. #8115
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Also Darnarian and the Froshands and Captains. The problem is that we don't know where they come from. Are they late addition BE's? Kirin Tor turn coats? Some BE's that were somewhere else during the heavy usage of fel crystals in QT? With no explanation of where they come from, and no new additions since MoP, it's only speculative.

    IMO the Frosthands have blue eyes just because of that, they use ice magic XD. The Captains could be a bug for all we know, since there is no reason why that type of NPC would have blue eyes and the rest not.
    Probably just Blizzard making a mistake with skin id's. It took a long time for them to fix Arathor the Redeemer's eyes as well. Blue/Green eyes are meant as visual queues as to the background of the characters.

    Given all the demonic energy in Outland all the Alliance Expedition Elves should have had green eyes as well, and perhaps the eyes of all Night Elf player characters should have changed green as well, at least while in Outland.

  16. #8116
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    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    That fantasy can exist in any new race, and arguably already does in the Mag'har orcs. If you're asking for that while also being a Thalassian elf in addition to being a member of the Alliance, I think you're just asking Blizzard to give up too much. The real problem with high elves as an independent playable race is that they don't contribute unique options, only a unique combination of options that already exist. None of the existing playable races are like that. At least for me, it represents a lower standard for playable races, even allied races.
    Nightborne are exactly this. They offer another form of 1)arcane based elves to the 2)Horde (Blood Elves were the first) and 3)are purple elves like Nightelves.

    Most Allied Races are this, to varying degrees. Kul'Tirans can be the only factually new racial type that isn't expressed in some playable form by the options available in game. To a lesser extent Zandalari are as well though their basis for animations comes from Night Elves (and this can be seen in a decent portion of their animations).

    I think that, to propose Allied Races have to be adding something wholly unique is already in violation of what the system has expressed. We already see end spectrums of how similar and how different Allied Races can be from the Highmountain Tauren(High Similarity/Low Difference) to Kul'Tiran(Low similarity/High difference).

    This can always go back and forth so I'll say this:

    Blizzard has not ever stated that they won't be adding a 3rd variation of races to the Allied Races system.
    Their recent spiel on Wildhammer actually makes it seem they are willing to 3rd iterations.
    Playable Allied Races have gotten extra customization that did not exist until they were playable (Dark Iron tattoos, different KulTiran models).
    As stated earlier, there are varying degrees of similarities/differences between every Allied Race and their current counterpart.

    I mean maybe to you and most of the staunch posters against High Elves feel it represents a low standard, but there's also players out there who really want to play slight variations of races, even if it's something as little as tattoos specific to Wildhammer Dwarves. I don't think any one person can say that this system is meant to only bring about unique flavors when clearly there has already been highly similar flavors released.

    I mean it feels to be splitting the hairs when you say High Elves as playable indepedently "doesn't contribute anything unique only a unique combination" because that is then literally making it unique, is it not? Especially when Nightborne already exist as this. You already had purple elves (Night Elves), you already had magic focused elves (Blood Elves) and those magic elves were on Horde.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    You had a lead dev nod along when told 'High Elves are the Alliance version of Void Elves', blanch a little when asked about High Elf LIKE customization options and who then said 'it's always possible (like the previous two times Ion said anything is possible in future...sorry three times, Ion was asked at Blizzcon apparently and more or less said the exact same thing albeit much nicer and less direct).

    Of course, a Void Elf with High Elf LIKE customization options isn't going to be a High Elf. It's still going to be a shadow infested Void Elf.
    Yeah that lead dev also emphasized to "not give up hope" but of course you'd have to leave that out to blur the real content of the answer. Love that the emphasis from Obelisk here is on "how the lead dev blanched" and not the fact that what Alex literally emphasizes the most is the not giving up hope part.

    And since Obelisk brought it up (I don't really want to bring up hearsays typically), yes Ion was asked about High Elves at this Blizzcon and the exact quote from that person who asked Ion is this:

    "so Ion told me that, again, high elves wn't be in BFA, but that it doesn't mean they will never happen"
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2018-11-18 at 12:21 AM.

  17. #8117
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangerDaz View Post
    Well there is one thing we cant forget : for the better and for the worse, warcraft's Lore is tied up to gameplay, and many of the Lore's restrictions come from gameplay decisions. Having said that, we clearly see that it is a gameplay decision that the colors of the playable Blood elf eyes and the Npcs from Silvermoon have exclusively fel green or golden eyes, something no other group of quelthalas elves have.

    The glowing blue eyes and sometimes green (not FEL green) belong to the elves who are Queldorei (as said in the suramar liberation quest) and not Sindorei (blood elves) or Rendorei (void elves). So for me Blizzard clearly splits Sindorei and Queldorei ingame and shows their differences.
    I agree for the most part, in terms of playable creation the blue and green/gold distinction is indeed in play. From the lore perspective, though; the eye-coloration has little to do with who is in which group and rather who was present in Silvermoon when Fel magic was used to rebuild it, and/or who drew power from the Burning Crystals charged with Fel energies after Kael's flight to Outland. The handful of blue-eyed Blood Elves are likely those who remained in Dalaran after the schism, but when put to the question declared their allegiance to Silvermoon and took up the mana-tapping behavior that Rommath prescribed for Arcane addiction. You could easily have green-eyed High Elves that we've not seen - they simply would've had to break with Silvermoon after its reconstruction and been in the area long enough to be tainted, but then left to deal with the addiction their own way afterward.

    The blue/green/gold split is largely a gameplay contrivance - a crude labeling mechanism. The split between High and Blood Elves is more ideological, though; based on whether or not a given Elf followed the practices Rommath brought back from Outland or found them ethically abhorrent and refused to take part. Regardless of your eye coloration, if you chose exile then you're of the Quel'dorei, and if you chose to accept it then you're of the Sin'dorei.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    I wonder if after all that happened (mainly with the Void Elves and Alleria), if the HE are still allowed to pilgrimage into the Sunwell, if not, it would make sense to have more and more HE studying to become VEs.
    Difficult to say. Silvermoon seemed to have relaxed its exile of the High Elves, probably an effect of Lor'themar's conflicted emotions in "Shadow of the Sun," so I would assume that High Elven pilgrims are permitted to visit the renewed Sunwell so long as they aren't part of an enemy detachment. Not sure if this is an open or one-time invitation, though; I would assume the latter given the strained relations between the two groups. With the faction war in full swing it may also have been rescinded altogether in the interests of security.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I do think there is an interesting room for speculation here, as we really don't know exactly WHY some Blood Elves are getting Golden Eyes are others not. That we haven't seen HE's with golden eyes so far could simply be that Blizz hasn't bothered, or there is actually a reason.

    As for the handful of Blood Elves with blue eyes, we still don't know why they have Blue Eyes. Are they High Elves that joined the BE? Blood Elves that just weren't in Q'T for enough time during the usage of fel crystals? It really doesn't tell us that Blood Elves have a way of getting Blue Eyes back, specially since the last blue eyed blood elves showed up during MoP, so it's hard to think is something emerging if it hasn't actually happened again for the last 6 years. Makes it look more like a one time thing.
    I assume the Blood Elves without green eyes are simply those who weren't present in Silvermoon during the reconstruction, and never drained Fel energy from either the Burning Crystals or demons. There were probably a few Blood Elves who lived and worked in or around Dalaran even post-collapse, who weren't part of Kael's detachment and so weren't jailed by Garithos on suspicion of treachery. Some may have also been in smaller lodges through the area, or small unremarked-on communities, who while not present to be Fel-tainted still kept their allegiance to Silvermoon when the bulk of the High Elves were exiled. Mana-tapping itself wouldn't bestow the Fel taint (unless you tapped a source of Fel energy), so a few Blood Elves might've kept their original eye coloration.

    I don't really know what leads to the golden eye coloration and if it is a recent development or if it was meant to be possible all the time. Based on some depictions of Liadrin I would think the coloration is meant for those individuals with a strong connection to the Light (e.g. Paladins and Priests) and not for the bulk of the Blood Elves, though who can really say. If there are any prominent High Elven Priests or Paladins remaining I would assume this coloration is an open possibility for them as well.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  18. #8118
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Rather than respond to every single point you have made, let us boil it down. I believe the following occurred. That when the city of Dalaran fell during Warcraft 3, it's community of High Elves was destroyed and scattered to the winds (not necessarily the people). Some went with Jaina to Kalimdor, which is an in game explanation for the fact Mage and Priest units in the Alliance armies during missions set in Kalimdor were High Elves. These individuals later settled in Theramore alongside Jaina.
    Some returned with Kael'thas to Silvermoon and became Blood Elves.

    Some remained around Dalaran to help them rebuild. When Kael returned at the head of the Blood Elven forces to assist Garithos, he would have shown up before he a.) split with the Alliance b.) went to Outland and sided with Illidan c.) sent Rommath back to teach the Blood Elves how to use those techniques to survive. These Elves would have had almost no reason not to side with their Prince, who lest we forget was the leader of the Thalassian Elf community prior to the fall of the city. There was nothing to schism over.
    The rest of what you've posted seems entirely agreeable, but the underlined bits represent the precise point in the narrative where ambiguity is rife. It is just as plausible that those High Elves who remained in Dalaran (while Kael'thas and his followers were reconquering Quel'thalas) elected, of their own accord, to remain completely separate from Kael'thas when he returned to the city with his congregation of Blood Elves.

    In either scenario, the composition of both of the modern organizations (Blood Elves of Quel'thalas, High Elves of the Silver Covenant) are easily explained; the Blood Elves would've been predominantly composed of individuals who utilized magic heavily, the High Elves would've been predominantly composed of individuals who utilized magic lightly or not at all.

    The contentious bit of all of this is discerning whether or not these High Elves constituted an ideologically distinct grouping, then, or if that divergent worldview was entirely based upon the Blood Elves joining the Horde. As it is a common argument made by the folks who don't particularly like the idea of playable High Elves, that 11-12 years isn't enough time for the High Elves to have become culturally distinct from the Blood Elves (despite it being asserted, in-game, in 6/7 expansions that the High Elves are culturally unique from the Blood Elves in numerous respects), wouldn't that same argument then suggest that this ideological divide is decades/centuries in the making?

    TL;DR

    If it is true that 11-12 years isn't enough for High Elves to have diverged from Blood Elves, culturally, and
    If it's true, being a known fact to virtually all factions who've made note of the subject in-game, that High Elves have indeed diverged from Blood Elves, culturally,
    Then it must also be true that said cultural divergence occurred prior to 11-12 years ago, no?

  19. #8119
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Nightborne are exactly this. They offer another form of 1)arcane based elves to the 2)Horde (Blood Elves were the first) and 3)are purple elves like Nightelves.

    Most Allied Races are this, to varying degrees. Kul'Tirans can be the only factually new racial type that isn't expressed in some playable form by the options available in game. To a lesser extent Zandalari are as well though their basis for animations comes from Night Elves (and this can be seen in a decent portion of their animations).

    I think that, to propose Allied Races have to be adding something wholly unique is already in violation of what the system has expressed. We already see end spectrums of how similar and how different Allied Races can be from the Highmountain Tauren(High Similarity/Low Difference) to Kul'Tiran(Low similarity/High difference).

    This can always go back and forth so I'll say this:

    Blizzard has not ever stated that they won't be adding a 3rd variation of races to the Allied Races system.
    Their recent spiel on Wildhammer actually makes it seem they are willing to 3rd iterations.
    Playable Allied Races have gotten extra customization that did not exist until they were playable (Dark Iron tattoos, different KulTiran models).
    As stated earlier, there are varying degrees of similarities/differences between every Allied Race and their current counterpart.

    I mean maybe to you and most of the staunch posters against High Elves feel it represents a low standard, but there's also players out there who really want to play slight variations of races, even if it's something as little as tattoos specific to Wildhammer Dwarves. I don't think any one person can say that this system is meant to only bring about unique flavors when clearly there has already been highly similar flavors released.

    I mean it feels to be splitting the hairs when you say High Elves as playable indepedently "doesn't contribute anything unique only a unique combination" because that is then literally making it unique, is it not? Especially when Nightborne already exist as this. You already had purple elves (Night Elves), you already had magic focused elves (Blood Elves) and those magic elves were on Horde.
    If you break it down in that specific way, there are some similarities to what I describe, but not remotely on the same level. Most importantly, the Nightborne are 10,000 years removed from those "purple elves" that you mentioned; they are not night elves. The high elves on the Alliance and those on the Horde have no physical differences. Also, you can argue that Blood Elves are "arcane based elves," but the Nightborne are a completely different concept of what that means. Alliance high elves have no such distinction, and unlike the Nightborne, their story leaves no room for it. You're comparing a distant cousin to an identical twin.

    You argue that I'm splitting hairs by saying that high elves don't contribute anything unique, but I'm most definitely not. Nightborne have unique models, fantasy, architecture, and story. No other race looks and feels like a Nightborne. Meanwhile, high elves are already playable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    If you break it down in that specific way, there are some similarities to what I describe, but not remotely on the same level. Most importantly, the Nightborne are 10,000 years removed from those "purple elves" that you mentioned; they are not night elves.
    I used broad strokes to make my point just as there are those that use broad strokes when trying to argue against High Elves when we all know it's a bit more nuanced than that. If one is going to reduce High Elves to broad strokes, I don't see why the same cannot be done for all other Allied Races. Again, there are varying degrees of similarities as differences with each of the Allied Races that already exist. This is increased similarity that High Elves share with Blood Elves is similar to the differences between Highmountain and Mulgore Tauren. Or even the potential Wildhammer Dwarves, which we know devs also excitedly discuss.

    Nightborne are the Highborne portion of the Night Elves. They are the Night Elf counterpart of an Allied Race. You can reduce the "purple elves" bit all you want but there is a literal quest in-game making reference to this that I've linked many times, I'll do it one more time though I do not believe you haven't already seen it:

    https://www.wowhead.com/quest=49427/...r-purple-elves

    It's implying the connection there between Night Elves, which the Nightborne do have whether you'd like to downplay that or not. Again it is all about varying degrees of similarities and differences, that's my main point.

    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    The high elves on the Alliance and those on the Horde have no physical differences. Also, you can argue that Blood Elves are "arcane based elves," but the Nightborne are a completely different concept of what that means. Alliance high elves have no such distinction, and unlike the Nightborne, their story leaves no room for it. You're comparing a distant cousin to an identical twin.
    Nightborne are still another form of "arcane/magic focused elf" they just bring that same concept in through a different view. This was in reference to you implying that a unique combination of already existing traits does not make something unique, when it clearly does and Nightborne are an example of that. You can look back over to discussions when people felt the Nightborne should have gone to Alliance over Horde and you will see many pointing out the similarities between the Nightborne and Blood Elves. Being another arcane focused elf did not stop them from becoming an Allied Race.

    Again, varying degrees of difference. You say there is no difference but we already see differences: Paler skin/hair colors, different npc voice chatter, no eye glow. That's not even including that when a race is made playable they get extra customization on top of that (this point also keeps being downplayed, but it is a fact).

    Their story in WoW has shown to taken a different turn than what the Blood Elves have gone through. In TBC they weren't being brain washed by their own society to accept their "new faction" (because they've never left the Alliance in the first place, even when their leaders asked them to), we also saw reference in-game to how High Elves regarded Blood Elves ("Don't worry, I'm not a Blood Elf, I won't suck the magic out of you"), and Wrath introduced the human/high elf city of Dalaran where we saw the largest gathering of High Elves. Cata we see Halduron ask Vereesa to help because he holds her fighters in high regard, even against Lor'themar's wishes. MoP exploded the rivalry between High Elves and Blood Elves into a bloody purge. Legion showed us the overall culture of each of the three elven groups: Blood Elves, High Elves, and Night Elves.

    Their story leaves room for more for sure, but they already have a lot to work with, certainly much more than races created out of thin air (Void Elves), and similar to other races that haven't done anything major for a long while but got added (Dark Iron Dwarves).

    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    You argue that I'm splitting hairs by saying that high elves don't contribute anything unique, but I'm most definitely not. Nightborne have unique models, fantasy, architecture, and story. No other race looks and feels like a Nightborne.
    No I was saying it's splitting hairs to say that the AR system is to bring about unique options, and then say only thing High Elves would bring is a "unique combination of things that exist", because that by definition would be unique and the Nightborne are a prime example of this. Let's take each of your Nightborne points and test High Elves against this:

    Unique model: Already pointed out differences between them and Blood Elves, this also isn't taking into consideration extra customization that would be added on top once becoming playable.

    Again, the difference between HMT and Mulgore Tauren is Antlers vs Horns, and Tattoos. Dark Iron Dwarves did not have fiery-wicked beards nor tattoos before becoming playable. You can't be someone that is okay with those additions/variations and then say High Elves must strictly stay the same way they are. Even Nightborne got additional hair colors once they became playable.

    The model is the easiest thing to change around.

    Fantasy: This one High Elves have in spades, they're not haughty, they're not proud and they're not xenophobic. As well as being the minority of their people and choosing loyalty to friends over family, they represent a different moral choice. That's very compelling and this isn't expressed by any current playable race.

    Architecture: High Elves have been shown to have architecture similar to Blood Elves with a blue paint job instead, I'll agree there. But they've also been relegated to Lodges as well; lodges that look more Night Elf and clearly not Blood Elf. This is another "easier thing" Blizzard can emphasize/change: the use of lodges for High Elf architecture.

    Story: This is another easy one, the High Elf story on Alliance following the split of High Elves and Blood Elves has been different. We already know from Chronicles that even before the split of identities (Blood Elf vs High Elf) there was already a different cultural/personality mindset between those High Elves who lived in human lands/kingdoms (like Dalaran) and those High Elves who stayed within the walls of Quel'thalas. That's strong seeding right there. It's been emphasized through WoW and just needs more brushing up if they become implemented as an Allied Race.

    Quote Originally Posted by protip View Post
    Meanwhile, high elves are already playable.
    Cmon, you know this is disingenuous. When people say they want to play High Elves they are specifically talking about that current group of elves on Alliance that still identify themselves as High Elves today.

    Do Blood Elves continue to identify themselves as High Elves? No they do not.

    It's not about playing a race, if that were the case we would not be having 2nd versions of existing races like another Tauren, another Dwarf, another Draenei, etc.

    Also, as from before, we know that Wildhammer Dwarves are something devs know about and discuss cool ideas about. Therefore we know that this player-manufactured "there won't be a 3rd race" isn't true until we see how they deal with Wildhammer Dwarves. Or High Elves for that matter since Ion told off-mic that High Elves not being in BFA doesn't mean they'll never happen.

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