Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Deleted]

IMO, I think it will be in well before that. My guess is that they are planning perhaps to allow Alliance Races to be on the Horde and vice-versa (keeping the faction lines intact, but letting people play with their friends without regard to race or faction) using some sort of end-of-expansion thing. From here, it's just a new face design and perhaps a different name tag for Alliance-based Blood Elves to call themselves High Elves.

Or when they remove factions and replace them by something else. Then it would not matter, if there are some Thalassian Elves out there with blue eyes.

- - - Updated - - -

So alliance folks getting high elves aka "not-blood elf high elves" aka an already alliance race that sits around as a faction of alliance npcs to be finally playable upsets horde players? What?
Is it just upsetting for alliance to get anything then?

It's not an Alliance race anymore. Blood Elves belong to the Horde for a longer time that the Horde was without them in the WoW game. They have made important contributions to Horde story and development, like bringing the Nightborne into the Horde. The High Elves in the Alliance are some exiles, not a race anymore. They left their homeland because of some kind of weird mana vegetarianism ideas, while the main body of the Thalassian Elves are Blood Elves now. There is not a second High Elf race, this is just a politican label. Void Elves are a race, because they have been altered by a cosmic force. High Elves are not.

[Obelisk Kai]

I brought them up simply because your argument is having to do with having an identical looking race with identical history etc... Since both factions have a literally identical race, the argument against having another one rings a bit shallow. Especially since the reasoning behind the split with HvA Pandaren is functionally identical to why there would be Blood Elves on the Horde and High Elves on the Alliance; political/ideological differences.



Again, I only brought it up to point out that the physical, in-game visual similarities already exist, so using that as an excuse not to do it is a shallow reason not to do it



All true, and I agree.



I agree with all of this.

But Pandaren have already set a precedent for being able to have the exact same race on both factions without compromising faction identity, with the only difference being their ideologies. If they were to implement Alliance High Elves, the only game play difference would be that they wouldn't start as neutral like the Pandaren. They could easily add some kind of text, or have their opening little cinematic experience/ intro quest that goes over why these elves are loyal to the Alliance rather than be named Blood Elves of the Horde.

I don't think they will ever do it, nor do I think they should given all the reasoning above, but they feasibly COULD if they wanted to since they have everything they need to feasibly justify it.

My counter-point regarding Pandaren though is that Blizzard seems to regard a neutral race available to both factions with an ideological division as a mistake. Using their existence as a justification does not make sense to me, as it implies that Blizzard should repeat the error despite it being an error. There are also major differences between the Pandaren and the thalassian elf situation, primarily that the Pandaren were introduced to both factions at the same time.

Like it or not, a sense of justified ownership over the High Elf theme, lore and aesthetic has now developed within the Horde, because they are themes, lore and aesthetic of a core Horde race because Blood Elves ARE High Elves. It is the same sense of ownership we feel over Undead or Goblin or Tauren or Orc or any other aspect of a Horde race, something that now comprises a unique part of Horde identity which would be diminished by being compelled to share it and that sense of identity is now nearly thirteen years old. No other faction specific race in the game faces this demand and it is fundamentally unfair to expect Horde players in general and Blood Elf players specifically to compromise their fantasy in this game to suit a small number of Alliance players who have not reconciled themselves to the reality of how the factions turned out in this game.

It is also worth remembering the impact Alliance High Elves would now have on Void Elves. Remember, Void Elves were created to give the Alliance a distinct thalassian elf variant in lieu of actual High Elves. Playable Alliance High Elves would damage Void Elves by undermining their role as the thalassian elves of the Alliance, and they would be marginalised by players who would prefer High Elf aesthetics over Void Elf looks.

It would also land us in the weird situation where the Alliance has access to two kind of thalassians, one of which is identical to a core Horde race, while the Horde only has one despite having the majority of the population by far. Would the Horde need yet another thalassian model to balance those scales? Four Elf races is already too much Elf, six would be ridiculous.

I have always agreed that Blizzard could do this if they wanted to. I just utterly disagree that Pandaren are any kind of precedent.

- - - Updated - - -

That's fine. People who get upset because somebody else gets something that doesn't affect them at all are the worst kinds of people anyway.

It is easier to defend the desire for playable High Elves rather than oppose them. Playable High Elves are a quantifiable result for the Alliance. Opposition is based on the abstract, the damage done by their addition to the integrity of the Horde and the Blood Elves.

Each faction consists of a multiplicity of races, each with a unique look, theme and story and which each compliment each other and work with each to forge a sense of faction identity. Duplicating a core Horde race to the Alliance damages the Horde as something that should be a unique experience within the Horde is made accessible to the other faction.

It also damages the Blood Elves, as Blood Elves ARE High Elves but if there was suddenly a group you could play in game that was listed as High Elves, that group would then be able to portray itself as the true High Elves (implicitly declaring the Blood Elves are not the High Elves) and they would then be able to redefine the concept of what a High Elf is and the Blood Elves would not, despite the Blood Elves clearly being the High Elves.

Now the objection is abstract, but those who claim they want the Alliance High Elves because of the lore are also basing their arguments in the abstract. If the lore and faction based objections are seen as meaningless by you then you are essentially admitting that this is the desire for the aesthetic of a pretty white elf with other pretty people in the Alliance. Which is a position I have no respect for at all.

So alliance folks getting high elves aka "not-blood elf high elves" aka an already alliance race that sits around as a faction of alliance npcs to be finally playable upsets horde players? What?
Is it just upsetting for alliance to get anything then?

The desire for High Elves is the desire to have access to a core Horde race without being Horde, which is unfair to the Horde and unfair to the Blood Elves because, and there is no way around it, Blood Elves ARE High Elves and the Alliance High Elves you want are basically Blood Elves with a different political opinion.

As long as the race you want isn't already playable by the Horde, I don't care what the Alliance could ask for. Sethrak, Ogres, Mok'Nathal, Half Elves, Tuskar...if you want any of that, go nuts and agitate and beg the developers. But a line must be drawn when it a desire for a race that is already playable on the other faction and it is a strawman argument to think Horde players just don't want the Alliance to have nice things. We don't want you to have what is already ours, which in a game where the factions are predicated on race and not ideology is a perfectly reasonable position to hold.

[Katchii]

I have always agreed that Blizzard could do this if they wanted to. I just utterly disagree that Pandaren are any kind of precedent.

I'm not sure how you can disagree on them being a precedent. I understand your position, but they exist. Them being a "mistake" doesn't change that. I agree with everything else you said.

[Garfurion]

My counter-point regarding Pandaren though is that Blizzard seems to regard a neutral race available to both factions with an ideological division as a mistake. Using their existence as a justification does not make sense to me, as it implies that Blizzard should repeat the error despite it being an error. There are also major differences between the Pandaren and the thalassian elf situation, primarily that the Pandaren were introduced to both factions at the same time.

True, the High Elves were first shown in WoW as part of the Alliance

It is the same sense of ownership we feel over Undead or Goblin or Tauren or Orc or any other aspect of a Horde race, something that now comprises a unique part of Horde identity which would be diminished by being compelled to share it and that sense of identity is now nearly thirteen years old. No other faction specific race in the game faces this demand and it is fundamentally unfair to expect Horde players in general and Blood Elf players specifically to compromise their fantasy in this game to suit a small number of Alliance players who have not reconciled themselves to the reality of how the factions turned out in this game.

It is also worth remembering the impact Alliance High Elves would now have on Void Elves. Remember, Void Elves were created to give the Alliance a distinct thalassian elf variant in lieu of actual High Elves. Playable Alliance High Elves would damage Void Elves by undermining their role as the thalassian elves of the Alliance, and they would be marginalised by players who would prefer High Elf aesthetics over Void Elf looks.

Funny how all these reasons never seemed to be of any importance when Blood Elves were given to the Horde with the full knowledge and intend that it would affect faction balance and compromise several unique aspects of the Alliance identity at the time such as human like skin tones&models and the Paladin class.

[Obelisk Kai]

True, the High Elves were first shown in WoW as part of the Alliance

As what they currently are, a non-playable NPC faction.

Funny how all these reasons never seemed to be of any importance when Blood Elves were given to the Horde with the full knowledge and intend that it would affect faction balance and compromise several unique aspects of the Alliance identity at the time such as human like skin tones&models and the Paladin class.

The Paladin class issue is irrelevant to this discussion and is an example of gameplay trumping the lore as it stood as keeping a pair of classes faction unique was one of the dumber decisions Blizzard made in Vanilla. Lore was written to explain the presence of Horde Paladins and Draenei Shaman, lore I find works.

Skin tone is irrelevant to this discussion when described as Human like and is not integral to the Alliance faction, any more than Draenei encroach on Trolls as both are blue. Thalassian elves have always been depicted with those skin tones. Skin tone only factors into this debate in terms of attempts to differentiate a thalassian elf group from the Blood Elves. As we know, this is the method by which Void Elves were differentiated from Blood Elves.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not sure how you can disagree on them being a precedent. I understand your position, but they exist. Them being a "mistake" doesn't change that. I agree with everything else you said.

Again, the point is it is difficult to argue a mistake is precedent that will be followed. A mistake is a warning not to repeat the error. In Void Elves, we can see Blizzard taking that lesson to heart, preferring a thematic variant to a duplicate with an ideological difference.

The Allied race system has superseded the rationale behind providing neutral races.

[Katchii]

Again, the point is it is difficult to argue a mistake is precedent that will be followed. A mistake is a warning not to repeat the error. In Void Elves, we can see Blizzard taking that lesson to heart, preferring a thematic variant to a duplicate with an ideological difference.

The Allied race system has superseded the rationale behind providing neutral races.

That's fair. But I'm not referring to the neutral race thing, just the fact that faction identity hasn't been compromised by having the exact same race on both sides.

[Obelisk Kai]

That's fair. But I'm not referring to the neutral race thing, just the fact that faction identity hasn't been compromised by having the exact same race on both sides.

Which I would again argue is not the case. Pandaren failed as a neutral race precisely because they damaged faction diversity as one of the lead developers at the time stated.

https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/sta...65802590384129

It was because the Pandaren were introduced to both sides at the same time that the damage was heavily mitigated, but damage WAS done. In my own personal experience, I find playing a Pandaren is somewhat unmoored from the faction, I never feel fully Horde or fully Alliance when playing one whereas that is not an issue with any other race, even Nightborne or Void Elves feel Horde and Alliance.

In contrast, Blood Elves have been a core Horde race for nearly thirteen years now and introducing Alliance High Elves, rendering Blood Elves de facto neutral, is several orders of magnitude greater in terms of damage to faction diversity.

Void Elves, by having their own theme, aesthetic and lore neutralised most of potential damage to faction diversity because they are most certainly not High Elves, while Blood Elves are High Elve.s

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

I sure love being a Sin'dorei having access to both green and gold eyes.

[AngerFork]

Which I would again argue is not the case. Pandaren failed as a neutral race precisely because they damaged faction diversity as one of the lead developers at the time stated.

https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/sta...65802590384129

IMO, this is a bit of a stretch. What you are pointing at here is one of the devs saying they weren't an overall fan of the idea of Pandaren being shared by both factions. He doesn't specifically say that it damaged faction diversity, though he does make reference to others that thought it had negative side effects. This is the opinion of one specific dev who was largely liked at the time for his willingness to speak his mind. This is definitely not something that should be regarded as the opinions of Blizzard as a whole, even if he was a few months ahead of his departure when this was posted.

Nothing here specifically states that Pandaren being on both sides damaged faction diversity, nor does anything here state specifically that being a reason they "failed." If anything made Pandaren "fail", I'd argue it would have more to do with other factors, such as:

- The "Kung Fu Panda" perception of them
- Not being a pretty or beastly race
- Having to level all the way from Level 1 with the new raid coming out only two weeks later (Monk had this same issue at first)
- Overexposure to Pandaren throughout the continent of Pandaria

[Highelf]

I'd be fine with them adding some high elf customization options to Void Elves. A slightly faded blonde hair color/or a Jaina type hairstyle color with hints of blonde still left in, high elf tattoos that we see on the archers from WC2 and Alleria.

It would make sense because the void elves originally were blood elves, but since then we have see actual high elves coming to Alleria and the void elf starting zone. So now they could add those subtle cosmetic options and have it make sense.

[Katchii]

Which I would again argue is not the case. Pandaren failed as a neutral race precisely because they damaged faction diversity as one of the lead developers at the time stated.

https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/sta...65802590384129

It was because the Pandaren were introduced to both sides at the same time that the damage was heavily mitigated, but damage WAS done. In my own personal experience, I find playing a Pandaren is somewhat unmoored from the faction, I never feel fully Horde or fully Alliance when playing one whereas that is not an issue with any other race, even Nightborne or Void Elves feel Horde and Alliance.

In contrast, Blood Elves have been a core Horde race for nearly thirteen years now and introducing Alliance High Elves, rendering Blood Elves de facto neutral, is several orders of magnitude greater in terms of damage to faction diversity.

Void Elves, by having their own theme, aesthetic and lore neutralised most of potential damage to faction diversity because they are most certainly not High Elves, while Blood Elves are High Elve.s

All that the quote says was they weren't a fan of it. Which I can understand, for the reasons you provided, but I think the way they introduced Pandaren is partly responsible for that feeling, the ideological difference between the Huojin and Tushui just never felt strong enough to warrant them being on completely opposing factions and therefore killing each other over.

Why would giving Alliance High Elves make Blood Elves "de facto neutral" though? There's plenty of lore to differentiate between Horde loyal Blood Elves and Alliance Loyal High Elves. IF they ever decide to do it, they'd really only have to say they are all coming from the Silver Covenant and give some back story as to why this faction is not allied with the Horde. Their shared history wouldn't detract from that identity.

Again, not trying to advocate for them, especially now with Void Elves being Blizzards answer for having Thalassian Elves on the Alliance, but I just don't agree that having them would damage the Blood Elf identity, as long as they were introduced in an appropriate way. At this point though, it would absolutely damage the Void Elf identity.

[Garfurion]

The Paladin class issue is irrelevant to this discussion and is an example of gameplay trumping the lore as it stood as keeping a pair of classes faction unique was one of the dumber decisions Blizzard made in Vanilla. Lore was written to explain the presence of Horde Paladins and Draenei Shaman, lore I find works.

The Paladin class issue is very relevant because of the way it was executed. Blood Elf Paladins are direct copies of Human Paladins. The Blood Elf Paladin mount is/was a recolor of the Human and Dwarf Paladin mounts (making them no longer unique). Also, with the way the Blood Elf Paladins were implemented the Horde got a light oriented race which until that time was exclusive to the Alliance.

Just compare Blood Elf Paladins to Tauren Sunwalkers. The latter are also Paladins for gameplay purposes but have a very different culture/background and are not direct copies of Human paladins.

The Alliance may have gotten Shaman in return, but they didn't get a shamanic race like the Orcs, Trolls or Tauren. Draenei are a Light oriented race with Vindicators (aka Paladins) as their token class. The most notable Alliance shaman is not even from a playable Alliance race but a Broken (Nobundo).

Skin tone is irrelevant to this discussion when described as Human like and is not integral to the Alliance faction, any more than Draenei encroach on Trolls as both are blue. Thalassian elves have always been depicted with those skin tones. Skin tone only factors into this debate in terms of attempts to differentiate a thalassian elf group from the Blood Elves. As we know, this is the method by which Void Elves were differentiated from Blood Elves.

Skin tone is very relevant because until Blood Elves were made playable 75% of the Alliance races were defined by that skin-tone. In Classic the Alliance was basically defined as tall, small and tiny humans plus elves. Blood/High Elf models, although based on earlier lore, are essentially mix of these originally Alliance features and as such giving them to the Horde reduced faction diversity.

Also, Night Elves already had Blue skin-tone. If Draenei had been implemented with green skin tones you might have had a point but as you know green is still a unique Horde skin-color.

Playable Alliance High Elves would further reduce faction diversity but not as much as playable Blood Elves did when they were implemented. High Elves are already in game as NPCs and basically a mix of features from the original 4 Alliance races.

Faction diversity would be more impacted if the Alliance would get shamanistic green skinned undead trolls with antlers/horns.

[Obelisk Kai]

IMO, this is a bit of a stretch. What you are pointing at here is one of the devs saying they weren't an overall fan of the idea of Pandaren being shared by both factions. He doesn't specifically say that it damaged faction diversity, though he does make reference to others that thought it had negative side effects. This is the opinion of one specific dev who was largely liked at the time for his willingness to speak his mind. This is definitely not something that should be regarded as the opinions of Blizzard as a whole, even if he was a few months ahead of his departure when this was posted.

Nothing here specifically states that Pandaren being on both sides damaged faction diversity, nor does anything here state specifically that being a reason they "failed." If anything made Pandaren "fail", I'd argue it would have more to do with other factors, such as:

- The "Kung Fu Panda" perception of them
- Not being a pretty or beastly race
- Having to level all the way from Level 1 with the new raid coming out only two weeks later (Monk had this same issue at first)
- Overexposure to Pandaren throughout the continent of Pandaria

This is not to do with Pandaren specifically, I think they are a fine race. It is to do with them being neutral, available to both factions and divided solely by ideology whereas all other divisions are predicated on race.

This particular tweet has been attacked on the grounds that it was 'one dev' talking for quite a long time, but it's not just a personal opinion. Firstly at the time this tweet was sent, Ghostcrawler was a senior developer on the WoW team. His words have merit.

Everything that has happened since Mists of Pandaria just keeps emphasising that faction diversity and identity is a concern. We have had no neutral races since Mists of Pandaria despite three opportunities to add such a race. The Allied race system fulfils some of the criteria of what the neutral race experiment attempted to accomplish, allow Blizzard to introduce a new race with less expense. Because they don't have to build any new starter zones and because they can repurpose existing rigs in the Allied race system, they can introduce faction specific pairs in future with ease.

And don't forget the reason given for why High Elves were rejected by Ion. Because they are already playable as Blood Elves on the Horde.

I actually contacted Ghostcrawler a few years later and asked him about this comment and how it impacted on High Elves. Of course, he had left Blizzard at this point, but his response was the following.

"What is more important: faction identity or more options for Alliance?"

It is a factor that was still on his mind. As the Allied races have shown, specifically Void Elves and Nightborne and how they were varied from their parents, as Ion's interviews have shown, they do care very much about faction diversity and faction identity.

Pandaren were an experiment which didn't pan out. The race works, but the making them neutral didn't and all the evidence we have from Blizzard's actions shows that they also think neutrality didn't work.

- - - Updated - - -

All that the quote says was they weren't a fan of it. Which I can understand, for the reasons you provided, but I think the way they introduced Pandaren is partly responsible for that feeling, the ideological difference between the Huojin and Tushui just never felt strong enough to warrant them being on completely opposing factions and therefore killing each other over.

I responded to this same sentiment in the earlier post.

Why would giving Alliance High Elves make Blood Elves "de facto neutral" though? There's plenty of lore to differentiate between Horde loyal Blood Elves and Alliance Loyal High Elves. IF they ever decide to do it, they'd really only have to say they are all coming from the Silver Covenant and give some back story as to why this faction is not allied with the Horde. Their shared history wouldn't detract from that identity.

On that basis the Grimtotem Tauren should be able to join the Alliance. And the Defiant Brotherhood Humans should be able to join the Horde. Lore is not enough as the basis for differentiation. There has to be something more tangible, not least because players need something tangible as a selling point, players who won't care about the lore one whit. And as the other examples show, once you start making ideology the centrepiece of division rather than race, the logic of the race based factions collapses. You can't say it's right for a High Elf fan to get a Blood Elf duplicate on the Alliance and then tell the Alliance Tauren fan they can't have Tauren?

Again, not trying to advocate for them, especially now with Void Elves being Blizzards answer for having Thalassian Elves on the Alliance, but I just don't agree that having them would damage the Blood Elf identity, as long as they were introduced in an appropriate way. At this point though, it would absolutely damage the Void Elf identity.

I of course disagree, there is no way they cannot damage Blood Elf identity. If Blood Elves are High Elves, yet a group on the opposite faction that is playable calls themselves High Elves, then who has ownership of that trope? Of that theme? Of that aesthetic? Of that lore.

The High Elf storyline is that they were nearly wiped out, left the Alliance, changed their name to Blood Elves and joined the Horde.
Making High Elves playable changes that narrative to they were nearly wiped out, betrayed by their kin and yet they still stand beside the Alliance even though they are few in numbers. That is an unavoidable consequence of such an addition and perhaps the main reason for my opposition.

Despite that I still believe Alliance High Elves to be extremely unlikely and I said that BEFORE they revealed Void Elves and I believe Void Elves make it unlikelier still. Nothing that has been talked about since has made me re-evaluate that stance.

- - - Updated - - -

The Paladin class issue is very relevant because of the way it was executed. Blood Elf Paladins are direct copies of Human Paladins. The Blood Elf Paladin mount is/was a recolor of the Human and Dwarf Paladin mounts (making them no longer unique). Also, with the way the Blood Elf Paladins were implemented the Horde got a light oriented race which until that time was exclusive to the Alliance.

Just compare Blood Elf Paladins to Tauren Sunwalkers. The latter are also Paladins for gameplay purposes but have a very different culture/background and are not direct copies of Human paladins.

The Alliance may have gotten Shaman in return, but they didn't get a shamanic race like the Orcs, Trolls or Tauren. Draenei are a Light oriented race with Vindicators (aka Paladins) as their token class. The most notable Alliance shaman is not even from a playable Alliance race but a Broken (Nobundo).

I believe you are stretching. Firstly, Blood Elves were not unique to the Alliance before TBC. The Rise of the Blood Elf campaign in WC3 specifically detailed their departure from the Alliance. Secondly, Blood Elves did not become 'light-orientated' until recently, when the holy-arcane energy of the Sunwell began manifesting among some Blood Elves as golden coloured eyes. In TBC Blood Elves were portrayed as mana addicts, they were not seen as a light orientated race in the same vein as the Draenei but as a magical race whose arcane nature put them at odds with the nature worshipping Night Elves.

As for Blood Elf Paladins sharing a similar origin to Human Paladins this is unsurprising given the Paladin order had only been formed a few years prior during the Second War. And the High Elves WERE members of the Alliance until WC3 TFT, so that some High Elves learned to be Paladins at the same time is unsurprising. In fact, it makes complete sense within the lore for it to be this way.

Skin tone is very relevant because until Blood Elves were made playable 75% of the Alliance races were defined by that skin-tone. In Classic the Alliance was basically defined as tall, small and tiny humans plus elves. Blood/High Elf models, although based on earlier lore, are essentially mix of these originally Alliance features and as such giving them to the Horde reduced faction diversity.

Also, Night Elves already had Blue skin-tone. If Draenei had been implemented with green skin tones you might have had a point but as you know green is still a unique Horde skin-color.

Playable Alliance High Elves would further reduce faction diversity but not as much as playable Blood Elves did when they were implemented. High Elves are already in game as NPCs and basically a mix of features from the original 4 Alliance races.

Faction diversity would be more impacted if the Alliance would get shamanistic green skinned undead trolls with antlers/horns.

I do not believe skin tone is important in regards the various races of either faction. Had Draenei been green I would not have cared, nor would anyone else. It only matters specifically in terms of this debate because the Alliance thalassian elf had their skin tone deliberately changed as the most obvious point of differentiation.

[Katchii]

On that basis the Grimtotem Tauren should be able to join the Alliance. And the Defiant Brotherhood Humans should be able to join the Horde. Lore is not enough as the basis for differentiation. There has to be something more tangible, not least because players need something tangible as a selling point, players who won't care about the lore one whit. And as the other examples show, once you start making ideology the centrepiece of division rather than race, the logic of the race based factions collapses. You can't say it's right for a High Elf fan to get a Blood Elf duplicate on the Alliance and then tell the Alliance Tauren fan they can't have Tauren?

The Grimtotem Tauren never joined the Alliance though, and the Defias Humans never joined the Horde they just broke from their respective factions over disagreements. There's a big difference between disliking your current faction and outright joining the enemy.

Lore/ story is plenty enough of a basis for differentiation between factions, IMO, otherwise games that have all the same race on different factions wouldn't ever work.

I of course disagree, there is no way they cannot damage Blood Elf identity. If Blood Elves are High Elves, yet a group on the opposite faction that is playable calls themselves High Elves, then who has ownership of that trope? Of that theme? Of that aesthetic? Of that lore.

The High Elf storyline is that they were nearly wiped out, left the Alliance, changed their name to Blood Elves and joined the Horde.
Making High Elves playable changes that narrative to they were nearly wiped out, betrayed by their kin and yet they still stand beside the Alliance even though they are few in numbers. That is an unavoidable consequence of such an addition and perhaps the main reason for my opposition.

Despite that I still believe Alliance High Elves to be extremely unlikely and I said that BEFORE they revealed Void Elves and I believe Void Elves make it unlikelier still. Nothing that has been talked about since has made me re-evaluate that stance.

There's SOOOO much more to the story than this though. There's enough story out there to discuss WHY this faction of High Elves are not loyal to the Horde and don't call themselves Blood Elves. I agree that Blood Elves ARE High Elves, but there's also a number of elves that aren't and/or never were loyal to the Horde. If anyone "betrayed" their kin it's the High Elves who deliberately chose not take the name Blood Elf and instead chose to join the Alliance.

The only real issue I see with them being a race is the numbers, the lore has High Elf numbers (the ones who still call themselves High Elves) as being incredibly low to the point where full on racial/ communal rebuilding is unlikely, that they are being absorbed by the communities they've become a part of.

All in all though, you and I agree on the idea that they shouldn't be implemented, for most of the same reasons. The only thing that we seem to disagree on is whether or not story and lore are enough to differentiate and maintain a separate identity for an Alliance High Elf from a Horde Blood Elf. I actually think their shared lore and history would make the opposition interesting.

[AngerFork]

This is not to do with Pandaren specifically, I think they are a fine race. It is to do with them being neutral, available to both factions and divided solely by ideology whereas all other divisions are predicated on race.

This particular tweet has been attacked on the grounds that it was 'one dev' talking for quite a long time, but it's not just a personal opinion. Firstly at the time this tweet was sent, Ghostcrawler was a senior developer on the WoW team. His words have merit.

His words do have merit, but his words were not always the specific be all, end all words of Blizzard. That's part of what I liked about him. When he was interviewed on a show like The Instance, he would sometimes go a bit off and reveal things that either weren't ready or were more his thoughts. The initial reveal of flight being taken out of Warlords of Draenor was one such instance. And when he left, you may remember that flight was slated to vanish in Warlords and never return again.

It's also worth noting that some plans did change after Ghostcrawler left. For instance, look at this interview recap with him from July 2013. One of the things brought up is the idea of speeding up the catch up process to let people play with friends, which is why experience potions were a potential thing. While we've seen various gear catch up mechanics and the free max level with each new expansion, the XP changes seem to very strongly go against this idea.

Everything that has happened since Mists of Pandaria just keeps emphasising that faction diversity and identity is a concern. We have had no neutral races since Mists of Pandaria despite three opportunities to add such a race. The Allied race system fulfils some of the criteria of what the neutral race experiment attempted to accomplish, allow Blizzard to introduce a new race with less expense. Because they don't have to build any new starter zones and because they can repurpose existing rigs in the Allied race system, they can introduce faction specific pairs in future with ease.

First, we need to look at those "three opportunities" you mentioned...because to me, there really was not a good fit in any of them. The first one (WoD presumably) was when they were updating all of the in-game character models. Adding any sort of new race on top of what was already there would have been incredibly daunting. The second one (Legion) was their usual spot for adding a new class, and they found a great one with Demon Hunters. Was there really a "neutral" race that could have fit there? This past one (BfA) is still somewhat being determined as we don't know all of the Allied Races, but it would very much feel weird to put in a neutral Race of any type during an expansion where the two sides are at such an intense war. This of course would have also added fuel to the claims that "BfA is MoP 2.0", given the neutral races in each one.

Beyond that though, where are you getting the idea that the neutral race experiment was set up to allow a new race to be built with less expense? The tweet linked earlier I seem to recall involved Ghostcrawler saying they didn't want to deny anyone Pandaren.

And don't forget the reason given for why High Elves were rejected by Ion. Because they are already playable as Blood Elves on the Horde.

I actually contacted Ghostcrawler a few years later and asked him about this comment and how it impacted on High Elves. Of course, he had left Blizzard at this point, but his response was the following.

"What is more important: faction identity or more options for Alliance?"

It is a factor that was still on his mind.

What is actually faction identity at this point? I somewhat see the Horde with two strongly different faction identities between the Sylvanas side and the Saurfang/Eitrigg side. Faction identity IMO is very much a subjective sort of thing and something that tends to morph and change with the story, at least as it stands right now.

As for Ion's quote, it is worth remembering that Lost Codex interview where Afrasiabi talks about Void Elf customizations to look more like High Elves happened more recently than Ion's comments about High Elves. This shows if nothing else that the topic is still discussed at Blizzard and they are looking at other options than simply a closed door.

As the Allied races have shown, specifically Void Elves and Nightborne and how they were varied from their parents, as Ion's interviews have shown, they do care very much about faction diversity and faction identity.

Pandaren were an experiment which didn't pan out. The race works, but the making them neutral didn't and all the evidence we have from Blizzard's actions shows that they also think neutrality didn't work.

Personally, I see a few pieces of evidence that show quite the opposite. Take for instance toys. I can at any point make any of my Horde characters look like an Iron Dwarf. Or an Arakkoa with flight. Or a Night Elf. I can also take my Alliance characters and make them look like a Hozen. Or a Blood Elf. Or a Tauren. Or an Undead. It may be important story-wise, but these would at the very least be blocked in battlegrounds if looks were all that important.

Story-wise however, it is important again to note that we are talking about a race that is already a part of the Alliance. That faction identity is there because they were there before WoW even started. We aren't talking about throwing the Wildhammer to the Horde or giving the Alliance Amani Trolls...this is a race that has been with the Alliance for quite some time. Making them playable at most brings them out of the shadows rather than spoils faction identity.

Not that I'm saying we should have High Elves, mind you. There's a ton of other logistic and otherwise weird things that would need to fit in place before that happens. I'm just saying that of all the reasons to not have them in the game, I don't really see "faction identity" as a strong one.

[Garfurion]

I believe you are stretching. Firstly, Blood Elves were not unique to the Alliance before TBC. The Rise of the Blood Elf campaign in WC3 specifically detailed their departure from the Alliance.

Where did I say Blood or High Elves were unique to the Alliance ? Why do you always insinuate people stated things they didn't.

Secondly, Blood Elves did not become 'light-orientated' until recently, when the holy-arcane energy of the Sunwell began manifesting among some Blood Elves as golden coloured eyes.

You know lore well enough to know they Sunwell was reinstated as a hole/arcane well at the end of TBC which means it was already planned before TBC was released. From that point onwards the Blood Elves stopped abusing the Light.

As for Blood Elf Paladins sharing a similar origin to Human Paladins this is unsurprising given the Paladin order had only been formed a few years prior during the Second War. And the High Elves WERE members of the Alliance until WC3 TFT, so that some High Elves learned to be Paladins at the same time is unsurprising. In fact, it makes complete sense within the lore for it to be this way.

That's nice head canon but also total bullshit.

Metzen himself said that giving Blood Elves Paladins was break in the lore : "well this is certainly a break in the lore, how the hell are we going to rationalize this one" -- source around 3:35

So there was absolutely no lore reason for the Blood Knight mount to be identical except in color to the Human and Dwarven Paladin mounts at the time. It was just Blizzard making Blood Elf Paladins as close to Human Paladins as possible and reducing Human Paladin uniqueness in the process.

In the end they came up with a story to explain Blood Knights which has a lot parallels to the Order of the Silver Hand.

Back in the capital city of Silvermoon, Magister Astalor Bloodsworn was not content with this idea. After long months of study and experimentation, he and his fellow wizards learned how to manipulate and corrupt the naaru's luminous energies. In the end the wizards devised a process by which the powers of the Light could be transferred to recipients who had not earned such abilities. Instead of feeding upon the naaru's magic, the blood elves would wield the naaru's Light-given powers themselves.

Lady Liadrin, formerly a priestess, had recently renounced her vows, for she felt the Light had abandoned her people. She learned of the wizards' achievement and volunteered to be the first to bend the stolen powers to her will. With her decision a new order was born: the Blood Knights. These renegade paladins are able to harness the sacred powers of the Alliance's noblest heroes. Most members of the Blood Knights were once part of the Royal Guard – proud defenders of high elven society who came to believe that the Light had failed them in their hour of greatest need. They see their appropriation of the captive naaru's powers as well-deserved justice" --source

I do not believe skin tone is important in regards the various races of either faction. Had Draenei been green I would not have cared, nor would anyone else. It only matters specifically in terms of this debate because the Alliance thalassian elf had their skin tone deliberately changed as the most obvious point of differentiation.

Of course you don't think skin tone is important in this case since it doesn't suit you. Green, Red or Orange Blood Elves wouldn't have been nearly as popular but wouldn't have weakened faction diversity as much as it did in TBC.

If you were truly as concerned with faction diversity as you claim to be you would see that playable Blood Elves severely weakened faction diversity. Probably much more than High Elves ever could at this point since they've already been shown as NPCs for years.

Blood Elves were deliberately added to the Horde to give them a human-like race with a human-like skin-tone with the sole purpose of weakening the faction diversity. Blizzard could have chosen other Horde races to have Paladins or they could have chosen a different race for the Horde altogether. Blizzard now bringing up faction diversity as a reason against Alliance High Elves and altering the skin color of Void Elves is therefore pure hypocrisy.

[Strippling]

So alliance folks getting high elves aka "not-blood elf high elves" aka an already alliance race that sits around as a faction of alliance npcs to be finally playable upsets horde players? What?
Is it just upsetting for alliance to get anything then?

No.

Alliance players getting another variant of a Horde model for a Horde race that is the main contingency of said race, whilst any allied to the alliance are merely a broken fragment of the Horde race.

- - - Updated - - -

That's fine. People who get upset because somebody else gets something that doesn't affect them at all are the worst kinds of people anyway.

Here in lies the problem. It does affect these "upset people". You along with others in here are just too ignorant to accept that. It literally steps on the foot of blood elfs and also further detracts from Horde identity (in lore, game play and visuals). Dispute that all you want, doesn't change the fact that high elfs are too similar to blood elfs that their introduction as an AR would almost certainly detract from the uniqueness of blood elfs in some form.

Blood elfs have become a core unit of the Horde. High elfs have been relegated as a bunch of fragmented tag alongs of the Alliance. Blood elfs are more core to the Horde than high elfs are to the Alliance.

However, a few high elves did not rename themselves blood elves. High elves and blood elves are physiologically the same race, the difference between high and blood elves is only political.[10] When Quel'Thalas left the Alliance, Some high elves were exiled from Quel'Thalas after the Third War.[11] Other high elf remnants have chosen to rejoin the Alliance in recent years, arriving to a cold reception.[2] Modern high elves are a rare sight, and are commonly mistaken for blood elves.[12][13] In consequence, there are very few high elves left on Azeroth today. High elves did not gather in any significant numbers, nor did they act as a coordinated whole. They are a very small group of individuals scattered all over the world. As such, they do not have common opinions or goals. Indeed, modern high elves cannot even truly be said to have a culture—only a past filled with glory and regret.[2]

A few high elves have chosen to join the Alliance in recent years, but the Alliance as a whole remains somewhat suspicious of high elves to this day. The high elves' secession from the Alliance during the Second War left bitter memories. Furthermore, the night elves, who became part of the Alliance during the Third War, saw it as their duty to warn their new allies against the high elves.

Your high elfs aren't as core to the Alliance as you seem to think.

[Deleted]

Where did I say Blood or High Elves were unique to the Alliance ? Why do you always insinuate people stated things they didn't.




You know lore well enough to know they Sunwell was reinstated as a hole/arcane well at the end of TBC which means it was already planned before TBC was released. From that point onwards the Blood Elves stopped abusing the Light.



That's nice head canon but also total bullshit.

Metzen himself said that giving Blood Elves Paladins was break in the lore : "well this is certainly a break in the lore, how the hell are we going to rationalize this one" -- source around 3:35

So there was absolutely no lore reason for the Blood Knight mount to be identical except in color to the Human and Dwarven Paladin mounts at the time. It was just Blizzard making Blood Elf Paladins as close to Human Paladins as possible and reducing Human Paladin uniqueness in the process.

In the end they came up with a story to explain Blood Knights which has a lot parallels to the Order of the Silver Hand.

Back in the capital city of Silvermoon, Magister Astalor Bloodsworn was not content with this idea. After long months of study and experimentation, he and his fellow wizards learned how to manipulate and corrupt the naaru's luminous energies. In the end the wizards devised a process by which the powers of the Light could be transferred to recipients who had not earned such abilities. Instead of feeding upon the naaru's magic, the blood elves would wield the naaru's Light-given powers themselves.

Lady Liadrin, formerly a priestess, had recently renounced her vows, for she felt the Light had abandoned her people. She learned of the wizards' achievement and volunteered to be the first to bend the stolen powers to her will. With her decision a new order was born: the Blood Knights. These renegade paladins are able to harness the sacred powers of the Alliance's noblest heroes. Most members of the Blood Knights were once part of the Royal Guard – proud defenders of high elven society who came to believe that the Light had failed them in their hour of greatest need. They see their appropriation of the captive naaru's powers as well-deserved justice" --source




Of course you don't think skin tone is important in this case since it doesn't suit you. Green, Red or Orange Blood Elves wouldn't have been nearly as popular but wouldn't have weakened faction diversity as much as it did in TBC.

If you were truly as concerned with faction diversity as you claim to be you would see that playable Blood Elves severely weakened faction diversity. Probably much more than High Elves ever could at this point since they've already been shown as NPCs for years.

Blood Elves were deliberately added to the Horde to give them a human-like race with a human-like skin-tone with the sole purpose of weakening the faction diversity. Blizzard could have chosen other Horde races to have Paladins or they could have chosen a different race for the Horde altogether. Blizzard now bringing up faction diversity as a reason against Alliance High Elves and altering the skin color of Void Elves is therefore pure hypocrisy.

Of course, the lore fit of Blood Elves being a race with shady practices, abandoned by the Alliance, had nothing to do with that. In TBC, Blood Elves had a perfect thematic fit to the Horde. Their stolen powers which allowed them to become Paladins on top of that. Just like Darkspear Trolls, they were outcasts. Just like Orcs, they had to cope with Fel addiction or the knowledge that some of their people had made pacts with the Legion. Like the Forsaken, they had suffered greatly under the assault of the Scourge.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

No.

Alliance players getting another variant of a Horde model for a Horde race that is the main contingency of said race, whilst any allied to the alliance are merely a broken fragment of the Horde race.

- - - Updated - - -



Here in lies the problem. It does affect these "upset people". You along with others in here are just too ignorant to accept that. It literally steps on the foot of blood elfs and also further detracts from Horde identity (in lore, game play and visuals). Dispute that all you want, doesn't change the fact that high elfs are too similar to blood elfs that their introduction as an AR would almost certainly detract from the uniqueness of blood elfs in some form.

Blood elfs have become a core unit of the Horde. High elfs have been relegated as a bunch of fragmented tag alongs of the Alliance. Blood elfs are more core to the Horde than high elfs are to the Alliance.

However, a few high elves did not rename themselves blood elves. High elves and blood elves are physiologically the same race, the difference between high and blood elves is only political.[10] When Quel'Thalas left the Alliance, Some high elves were exiled from Quel'Thalas after the Third War.[11] Other high elf remnants have chosen to rejoin the Alliance in recent years, arriving to a cold reception.[2] Modern high elves are a rare sight, and are commonly mistaken for blood elves.[12][13] In consequence, there are very few high elves left on Azeroth today. High elves did not gather in any significant numbers, nor did they act as a coordinated whole. They are a very small group of individuals scattered all over the world. As such, they do not have common opinions or goals. Indeed, modern high elves cannot even truly be said to have a culture—only a past filled with glory and regret.[2]

A few high elves have chosen to join the Alliance in recent years, but the Alliance as a whole remains somewhat suspicious of high elves to this day. The high elves' secession from the Alliance during the Second War left bitter memories. Furthermore, the night elves, who became part of the Alliance during the Third War, saw it as their duty to warn their new allies against the high elves.

Your high elfs aren't as core to the Alliance as you seem to think.

One super fun thing that people that keep citing the Warcraft Encyclopedia page on High Elves seem to forget, is that it was released BEFORE the Silver Covenant was introduced in WotLK, where they:

-Started gathering in significant numbers.
-Started acting as an explicitly Alliance group.
-Started acting as a coordinated entity.

Like the Silver Covenant gathering clearly contradicts many of the statements made on the Encyclopedia, and it's not even a retcon, It's just an advancement of their lore.

And even then, in Cataclysm we get introduced to the Highvale proper, who are a groud of High Elves, who carry their unique secluded culture -light worshiping woodsmen who have abandoned the use of arcane-

High Elves have had development post the Warcraft Encyclopedia on them, to presume later developments in the game lore don't matter is kinda silly.

[Mayia]

I think finding a bunch in outland would justify people making high elves or just a quest line that shows some high elves didn't become void elves, and tried to return to become blood elves but couldn't find kinship with a people who have changed so much, it could even be driven home by when they go to leave Sylvannas attacks them trying to make them into undead.
If we are ignoring the fact we have thousands of unhomed people it doesn't matter if they don't have a place to settle, we can just pretend they have a nice boat or something lol.