Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

The only problem I see with half-elves is that there are too few of them. Every half-breed in WoW is rare, even the developers have said this. The only half-breeds with a small, yet decent-sized population is the Mok'nathal.

Yeah I agree which is why it's far-fetched in happening. But was just throwing out the other option I'm cool with happening. For me it's not "High Elves as stand-alone race or bust." I'm down for compromises that are actual compromises. Not something like Void Elves where players weren't asked or hinted at about "what if magically transformed thalassian elves were on alliance" that convo never happened so VE can't ever be a compromise.

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First, that schism only mentions two groups, but doesn't really mention the diaspora the High Elves are in. So, the claim you're making amounts to saying that because the schism involved two groups, that those two groups must still be just two groups; Blood Elves and High Elves. Second, you're implying that the vast majority of remaining High Elves both live in Dalaran and are serving in a military capacity as part of the Silver Covenant. So...the lore information doesn't add up to what you're implying, if the High Elves are in a state of diaspora across Stormwind, Dalaran, Outland and their lodges around the world (but primarily Qel'Danil), how can "the absolute majority" of them both be living in Dalaran AND be part of the relatively small militarized faction there?

This bolded information was written during Vanilla WoW when the faction "Silver Covenant" wasn't existing in-game. Neither did the continent of Northrend. I think it goes without saying every expansion continues the lore forward. And with every expansion (aside WoD, maybe) there has been an ever increasing population of named High Elf NPCs factioned with the Alliance. With every expansion we are seeing more connections between High Elves and the Alliance. We have been introduced to Alleria's expedition in TBC, the Silver Covenant in Wrath, the SC siding with Alliance during MoP, the High Elves being mentioned among the Alliance by Elisande (she references Blood Elves among "misfits and monsters" aka Horde), High Elven mages among the ranks of the 7th Legion in BFA and seen walking around SW among Void Elves and being part of the Island Expedition team which Jeremy Feasel stated were "making interesting members of the opposing faction to fight" and what do we see on an Alliance team? A High Elf. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Frostfencer_Seraphi

Island Exp video: https://youtu.be/XojQnSMkq-k?t=216

6 out of 7 expansions has been slowly showcasing more and more Alliance High Elves, whether generic or unique named.

Also, we have seen more instances of the idea of "Blood Elves coming back into the Alliance" rather than "High Elves (as in Alliance High Elves with Blue Eyes for any smartasses) going back to Horde". That reinforces this idea that the High Elves are very loyal to Alliance.

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But yeah, don't give up. Keep that cash coming, I'm sure Helfs are just a month away, or three, or six or ... well, you make sure you pay your sub Helfboi.

Implying I'm going to stay subbed to Blizzard in hopes of High Elves. The only matter that keeps me subbed is "am I having fun with the game or not?", I've unsubbed from WoW for long periods of time, and have come back as well. Never has it related to High Elves and never will it. Nice try at implying something that isn't reality. Sucks for you.

[Strippling]

Nowhere did I say that. I'm sure I can be confusing if you utterly and terribly misinterpret or stay in denial of proof that High Elves existed on Alliance from WC3 to WoW and before Blood Elves joined the Horde in TBC.



It was meant to show that there is a continued bridge of High Elves that stayed Alliance loyal before Blood Elves were a faction of the Horde.

At this point, either you will get it or you won't. I'm not sure what's worse in that regard honestly.

I think you are the one in denial. Asking for a race that will literally further detract from the Horde and Blood Elfs, and not giving a damn about that cause you'd rather wish that you can play your light skinned elf despite the blurring of faction lines or identity it would take from the Horde and Blood Elfs. And you think your justifications are valid... the majority of your evidence only suits your agenda and completely disregards the concerns of those against high elfs.

You think tattoos and hair will make much visual distinction? No. And don't use lightforged draenei, cause that's not crossing factions boundaries. You were given your void elfs, in exchange for nightborne going Horde. How would it be fair to give another customization of a HORDE playable model to the alliance? Again, lore reasons aren't enough to validate this. Any story progression for high elfs can be achieved via NPCs, but even then I would like to see more story progression for blood elfs and void elfs as opposed to high elfs given that the former are playable and given that blood elfs ARE the main high elven society and as such the main focus of ANY high elven story should be given to them. It wouldn't make sense for a small band of humans (say Alterac) to get more lore progression than say SW humans. RP wise, although people would love to RP alliance high elfs, it wouldn't be fair to the Horde and blood elf fans to have their identity detracted from just because a small minority of people would love to RP a blue eyed light skinned elf on the blue side.

Then there is the debacle of void elfs getting high elf customization options. This wouldn't work for so many reasons:
1. There would be NEXT TO NO visual distinction between void elfs and blood elfs. Thus, further blurring factions lines and DEFINITELY detracting from the Horde identity and core Horde race
2. High elfs with void traits... doesn't make sense lore wise
3. People would then beg for paladins... which wouldn't make sense lore wise
4. etc..

I know you really want high elfs but sometimes you need to accept that there are more factors and concerns to consider, rather than "just give me what I want to play". This game is centered around two opposing factions. Both factions are heavily defined by the races allied to them. On top of that, blood elfs are a CORE horde race... so despite your "innocent" request, there is much more to consider than simply giving you high elfs....and Blizz recognize these concerns, hence why they went down the void elf route as opposed to just giving you high elfs which the introduction of the AR system would have been the perfect time to do. On

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Wrong, while it's a true that a few early Wc3 High elves became Blood elves, particularly those who didn't follow Jaina to Theramore or resided in the lodges, almost all Blood elves were from Silvermoon. The "Reclusive masters" that were referred to in that lore. The majority of High elves were Alliance since the second war and remained so.

Lol, I think you have your lore backwards. MOST of the WC3 high elfs became blood elfs. A FEW of them chose to ally with the new (ie current) alliance.

[FlubberPuddy]

I think you are the one in denial.

It can't be denial when both the Game Director of WoW says "the door hasn't closed" on High Elves and the Lead World Designer and Creative Director says "don't give up hope" and High Elf fantasy can come to Alliance through VE proxy.

You think tattoos and hair will make much visual distinction? No. And don't use lightforged draenei, cause that's not crossing factions boundaries. You were given your void elfs, in exchange for nightborne going Horde. How would it be fair to give another customization of a HORDE playable model to the alliance? Again, lore reasons aren't enough to validate this.

Show me a Blood Elf that looks like this in-game:



Then you can say it's not fair. Btw you're absolutely right, Void Elves were given in exchange for Nightborne. Now that we have Void Elves there is no crossing faction boundaries to gain the look of Alleria and other High Elves that already exist on Alliance. Examples of these below:







And as we have seen when it comes to character customization, those customizations don't need to exist on unplayable npcs to be added to the playable version of a race (aka Dark Iron Dwarf tattoos when no DID NPC had tattoos in-game).

[Strippling]

It can't be denial when both the Game Director of WoW says "the door hasn't closed" on High Elves and the Lead World Designer and Creative Director says "don't give up hope" and High Elf fantasy can come to Alliance through VE proxy.



Show me a Blood Elf that looks like this in-game:



Then you can say it's not fair. Btw you're absolutely right, Void Elves were given in exchange for Nightborne. Now that we have Void Elves there is no crossing faction boundaries to gain the look of Alleria and other High Elves that already exist on Alliance. Examples of these below:







And as we have seen when it comes to character customization, those customizations don't need to exist on unplayable npcs to be added to the playable version of a race (aka Dark Iron Dwarf tattoos when no DID NPC had tattoos in-game).

You literally just posted pics of blood elfs with blue eyes. In the case of Alleria, if there was an armor X-mog for that, then yep there would be plenty of blood elfs that look like that (minus the eye color).

I think this is your weakest argument yet. You literally used blood elfs with blue eyes to validate your point... lul

Also, yes it would be crossing faction boundaries. The thalassian elf model is a CORE horde model. Imagine the outrage if nightborne were given more and better customization options than night elfs. So sorry bud, but high elfs (either as a new AR or customization to void elfs) would detract from the core Horde race that is blood elfs.

[Gurluas]

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Lol, I think you have your lore backwards. MOST of the WC3 high elfs became blood elfs. A FEW of them chose to ally with the new (ie current) alliance.

I am speaking specifically about the High elves featured in Wc3 in the Alliance. Quel'thalas was already out of the Alliance by then, so I wasn't counting those.
Those High elves were split, a lot went with Jaina, a few went with Arthas to Northrend and died, and the rest who remained behind joined Kael'thas and later became Belves.

[FlubberPuddy]

So sorry bud, but high elfs (either as a new AR or customization to void elfs) would detract from the core Horde race that is blood elfs.

You don't have to apologize for that. Blizzard will handle it how they see fit. Post BfA, there's potential for playable High Elves on Alliance.

[Obelisk Kai]

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I find that after a time these replies become simply too unwieldy to manage by responding to every single point. Someone at some point has to slow down the cycle of bloat and summarise.

Fundamentally, we are never going to agree. You desire an Alliance High Elf and openly state political affiliation is the driving force for that goal. I argue that political differentiation is not enough to justify an Allied race.

The critical difference in our points of view is that yours is aspirational, whereas mine is factual. By that I mean, Blizzard agrees that political differentiation is not enough to justify an Allied race. We know this because

a.) They have stated on several occasions that Blood Elves are High Elves, that High Elves are already playable and that this is the reason Alliance High Elves are not a playable race.

b.) They created Void Elves rather than use a system that seems tailor made to deliver Alliance High Elves. In other words, not only did they refuse to grant Alliance High Elves when the opportunity arose, they went out of their way to create a substitute.

Your position is therefore aspirational in that you seek to have Blizzard change their minds.

Yet that is much greater than petitioning for just a particular Allied race. Ultimately you do not agree with what seems to be internal rules for an Allied race, that there has to be a level of aesthetic difference between an existing race and a potential Allied race based upon it to justify it. This goes doubly or even triply for thalassian Elves on the Alliance and the Nightborne on the Horde, as their parent races are on the other faction.

You argue that ideology is just as important a factor in terms of differentiation. Whilst a case could be made for that, I do not believe it applies to World of Warcraft, and your personal opinion that it should would be out of kilter with the rest of the game. No other proposed Allied race is suggested on the basis of ideology, each one has a level of aesthetic difference from a parent race (Mecha-Gnomes, San'layn). It is clear why this is the case, should ideology trump race then a case could be made for rebellious groups of any existing race to appear and attempt to join the other faction. Horde Dwarves, Alliance Tauren. It is the thin end of the wedge towards destroying the distinctive identities of the two factions because the two faction's identities are predicated on the races that comprise them.

100% agree Half Elves are the better choice in every way as it fulfills what I am asking for. Yet I would also be content with just High Elves, so I support both ideas.

High Elves I will resolutely oppose as an encroachment on a core Horde race that threatens the integrity of my faction and the identity of the Blood Elves as the High Elves of the Warcraft universe.

Half Elves I couldn't care less about. Go nuts with trying to get them.

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I mean, all that guy did was post hearsay. There's no recording of Ion saying any of that. Just two pictures of some guy standing next to Ion. If there's always a chance High Elves could happen, there's always the chance that guy is completely full of shit just trying to invigorate his "followers".

But I'm glad to hear they aren't on the current agenda. I'm really skeptical that WoW will have more expansions at this rate. They'll really need to pull out some ace-in-the-holes. High Elves might be one of those, honestly. The game is in a very poor state, and I think Blizzard is, as well.

Time will tell. In the meantime, let's chalk up another expansion in the tally...

I follow the Allied race debate on the ARC discord as while I am opposed to High Elves, the overall topic of Allied races intrigues me and I am eager to see a Sethrak Allied race for the Alliance and I wish to show my support to that community there. Something interesting occurred a few weeks ago that shows the pitfalls of leaning too much on what an individual reports.

Someone datamined files from the 8.1 ptr purporting to show a hi-res San'layn crest that some interpreted as evidence of a potential San'layn allied race. The same individual found files showing Silvermoon models and a High Elf tent with the initial assumption they had to do with an upcoming Silvermoon warfront (the High Elf tent being taken as evidence of High Elf participation).

Except the files hadn't come from the PTR at all, the names had been altered to appear to be from the current PTR but they were actually from TBC or WOTLK or some earlier expansion where this content was introduced. People had gotten their hopes up based on this information and they were badly mislead by an individual who had gotten it badly wrong. I felt really bad for those players arguing for playable San'layn as the files had given them a measure of hope.

Which is why what this individual reported should be taken with a truckload of salt. There is no record of the conversation between Ion and this individual. All we have is his summary which is of course prone to bias and maybe misleading, either deliberately or accidentally.

Do I believe the conversation took place? Absolutely. Do I believe it unfolded exactly as described? Probably not, it's a summary written down after the fact and we cannot see what Ion said or parse any nuance in his answers . Yet even what Ion said to this individual, if taken at face value, was simply a restatement of what was said in the Q and A. That in the future, anything is possible. Which it is. But the future remains circumscribed by choices made in the past and present, and playable Alliance High Elves remain incredibly unlikely in a game with two thalassian elf options.

Rather than a full fledged allied race (something which is going to become a lot rarer post BFA) if they are minded to respond on this topic they will probably try giving Void Elves some High Elf LIKE options, or allow cross faction grouping of some description so that Blood Elves can group with Humans and Dwarves (and everyone can group with everyone) and call it a day.

[FlubberPuddy]

Rather than a full fledged allied race (something which is going to become a lot rarer post BFA) if they are minded to respond on this topic they will probably try giving Void Elves some High Elf LIKE options, or allow cross faction grouping of some description so that Blood Elves can group with Humans and Dwarves (and everyone can group with everyone) and call it a day.

I'm sure it doesn't hurt to ask Ion directly through twitter if such a conversation took place, you did so before Kai when Kaira proved she spoke to Jeremy Feasel on potential of High Elves happening.

At least with this last paragraph you see that there are a couple ways of handling the High Elf topic among Alliance, should Blizzard choose to do so, rather than constantly nagging that it will never happen.

[Katchii]

This bolded information was written during Vanilla WoW when the faction "Silver Covenant" wasn't existing in-game. Neither did the continent of Northrend. I think it goes without saying every expansion continues the lore forward. And with every expansion (aside WoD, maybe) there has been an ever increasing population of named High Elf NPCs factioned with the Alliance. With every expansion we are seeing more connections between High Elves and the Alliance. We have been introduced to Alleria's expedition in TBC, the Silver Covenant in Wrath, the SC siding with Alliance during MoP, the High Elves being mentioned among the Alliance by Elisande (she references Blood Elves among "misfits and monsters" aka Horde), High Elven mages among the ranks of the 7th Legion in BFA and seen walking around SW among Void Elves and being part of the Island Expedition team which Jeremy Feasel stated were "making interesting members of the opposing faction to fight" and what do we see on an Alliance team? A High Elf. https://wow.gamepedia.com/Frostfencer_Seraphi

Island Exp video: https://youtu.be/XojQnSMkq-k?t=216

6 out of 7 expansions has been slowly showcasing more and more Alliance High Elves, whether generic or unique named.

Also, we have seen more instances of the idea of "Blood Elves coming back into the Alliance" rather than "High Elves (as in Alliance High Elves with Blue Eyes for any smartasses) going back to Horde". That reinforces this idea that the High Elves are very loyal to Alliance.

Fair point, I'm just going off of the lore we've seen and written, and I've seen no source that outright says the Silver Covenant is the faction within the Alliance that contains the vast majority of High Elves. If there's no source that says it, then it's essentially head canon, which may or may not be true...it's just unconfirmed, whether or not it makes sense is not really the point, I just can't 100% accept it as the "truth" unless it's confirmed with some kind of official lore source, but I can admit it would make sense if it's true.

I've never said the High Elves weren't loyal to the Alliance, they absolutely are. My point has been that, as a whole, the High Elves are not a faction that's loyal to the Alliance like the other races (except Human...in a way), they're a people who live within the Alliance and fight for it because they live there.

Similar to real life. Nations have allegiances with other nations. The US has several allies: Germany, France, Japan, Australia, etc... In WoW, the other races would be like a national ally. For this example I'll just say Humans are the US, with the other races being one of the other nations. High Elves wouldn't be a separate nation, they'd be foreigners who have come to live in the US and become citizens and now fight for the US. The Silver Covenant would basically be an US fighting force comprised almost entirely of the foreigners-now-US citizens being lead by a highly prestigious foreigner.

There's enough lore there to firmly establish them as a viable race to make playable, I think the lore reasoning Blizzard has been using up to this point, that their numbers are just too low to make a viable playable race, is also viable. And I also agree that giving the Alliance what would essentially amount to Blue Eyed Blood Elves with maybe some additional cosmetic options would detract from the Horde identity for Blood Elves, but now it would also detract from Void Elves since they're playable. However, Blizzard isn't really sticking to their guns on the numbers thing, because they keep introducing more and more High Elves. So...which is it Blizzard? Do they have numbers so low that they're dying out as a race or are there enough of them out there that you can keep throwing them at the Horde and yet STILL keep introducing more of them rather than see a dwindling High Elf population?

I don't care either way, I just want the lore for it to make sense. Giving High Elf like cosmetic options to Void Elves would be stupid IMO and would please the aesthetic crowd, but at this point in time it wouldn't make sense from a Lore perspective and would quite obviously just be a way to get the pro Alliance High Elf crowd to STFU about it.

[Obelisk Kai]

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I don't care either way, I just want the lore for it to make sense.

If Blizzard wished to, they could write any sort of story they wanted to justify it but that isn't the problem. The problem is fundamentally one of gameplay, that Blood Elves are High Elves, that High Elves are playable, and that giving the Alliance that option is unfair to the Horde and damaging to the division between the factions (which is predicated on race). Think of the changes Void Elves had to go through so they could be justified as an Allied race.

High Elves cannot be differentiated culturally from Blood Elves, anymore than a West Londoner can be differentiated from an East Londoner. High Elves cannot be differentiated aesthetically from Blood Elves, anymore than your friend with a weird hairstyle and tattoos can be differentiated from your friend with a boring hairstyle and no tattoos.

The lore, that the High Elves are too few in number, is a story explanation for a gameplay fact, that they cannot be made different from an already available race. It is possible to differentiate a group of thalassian elves enough that they could be included as an allied race. This was proved with Void Elves, but that level of difference means they are no longer Blood/High Elves, which is the entire point.

You cannot talk about differentiating Alliance High Elves from Blood Elves and still have them remaining High Elves, as Blood Elves are High Elves. You cannot be the same and different at the same time.

[Katchii]

If Blizzard wished to, they could write any sort of story they wanted to justify it but that isn't the problem. The problem is fundamentally one of gameplay, that Blood Elves are High Elves, that High Elves are playable, and that giving the Alliance that option is unfair to the Horde and damaging to the division between the factions (which is predicated on race). Think of the changes Void Elves had to go through so they could be justified as an Allied race.

High Elves cannot be differentiated culturally from Blood Elves, anymore than a West Londoner can be differentiated from an East Londoner. High Elves cannot be differentiated aesthetically from Blood Elves, anymore than your friend with a weird hairstyle and tattoos can be differentiated from your friend with a boring hairstyle and no tattoos.

The lore, that the High Elves are too few in number, is a story explanation for a gameplay fact, that they cannot be made different from an already available race. It is possible to differentiate a group of thalassian elves enough that they could be included as an allied race. This was proved with Void Elves, but that level of difference means they are no longer Blood/High Elves, which is the entire point.

You cannot talk about differentiating Alliance High Elves from Blood Elves and still have them remaining High Elves, as Blood Elves are High Elves. You cannot be the same and different at the same time.

Except, Pandaren.

And Void Elves and Blood Elves already look pretty much identical when in full armor. the differences are minimal. Similarly now to how Nightborne and Night Elves have such similar frames and animations, so across the field, without having a different colored name, how would you easily distinguish between a Nigh Elf and a Nightborne if they were standing side by side in full armor?

I'm not denying that what you said is true, but it's a pretty shallow reason not to do it given the similarities that already exist across factions to the point of almost being a non-issue for this, IMO.

But as you said, having the Void Elves in play now really makes this a remote possibility. The most that I'd expect is to give Void Elves cosmetic options, but as I said I'd find that a bit distasteful as it would obviously just be a way to try and get the HE crowd to STFU about it.

[Obelisk Kai]

Except, Pandaren.

Pandaren are not and never have been the answer to these concerns or issues.

Pandaren were conceived as neutral and introduced as neutral and their entire storyline in Mists of Pandaria was based on their neutrality. They were an experiment to see if neutral races could work, which if successful would have been a boon for the hard pressed development team as they would only have to create one race model and one starting experience, rather than two. The Pandaren experiment was a failure, with one Blizzard dev tweeting that they didn't like the cost to faction diversity Pandaren imposed, faction diversity being the reason High Elves were rejected.

A neutral race was a mistake. Just because they made that mistake does not mean they are obligated to repeat it. And given it has been over six years since Pandaria was added to the game, and no other neutral race has been added to the game despite there being three further expansions and three further opportunities to do so, I think it is safe to say we won't be seeing any further neutral races. After all, Blizzard does not need neutral races to save time anymore. The Allied race system does away with the need for starting experiences and allows the re-use of existing models.

Having said that, the concept does not apply to Blood/High Elves. Blood Elves are already a playable race and have been a core part of the Horde for the past thirteen years. The lore lets us know they represent an overwhelming majority of the thalassian elf population. The only thing that is done by those who cite the neutral Pandaren as an example is that they implicitly admit that Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race.

And Void Elves and Blood Elves already look pretty much identical when in full armor. the differences are minimal. Similarly now to how Nightborne and Night Elves have such similar frames and animations, so across the field, without having a different colored name, how would you easily distinguish between a Nigh Elf and a Nightborne if they were standing side by side in full armor?

That point cuts both ways. I could just as easily say that those who want High Elves should wear full armor on their Void Elves and never take it off. Void Elves and Blood Elves are not the same race, one is the true High Elf, the other is a variant transformed by void energy into it's own thing.

I'm not denying that what you said is true, but it's a pretty shallow reason not to do it given the similarities that already exist across factions to the point of almost being a non-issue for this, IMO.

Similarity is not being identical. Void Elves have their own lore, their own aesthetic and their own theme. They are former Blood/High Elves but they have been sufficiently differentiated that they do not tread on the toes of the Blood Elves or the Horde, which playable Alliance High Elves would. I have stated previously I was not keen to share the thalassian elf model with the Alliance, nor am I keen that a modified night elf model ended up on the Horde. But while it happened, both groups are sufficiently different from their parents that they do not damage faction diversity too much.

But as you said, having the Void Elves in play now really makes this a remote possibility. The most that I'd expect is to give Void Elves cosmetic options, but as I said I'd find that a bit distasteful as it would obviously just be a way to try and get the HE crowd to STFU about it.

Void Elves would not have been created had they any intention of adding Alliance High Elves in future. Void Elves were clearly conceived to be a compromise for Alliance players to play something like a Blood Elf (and Blood Elves ARE High Elves). And it is also true that as much as the existence of Blood Elves was a barrier to Alliance High Elves, Void Elves are a further lock as we never discuss how playable Alliance High Elves would undermine THEM. If Blizzard was to do something on this question in future, it is far likelier they would use Void Elves as a vehicle rather than blow an Allied race slot on an exact duplicate of an existing race.

[Varx]

Ill tell you when High Elves will be handed to you guys. When the expansion cycle finally ends and WoW becomes free to play.

Blizz will probably just add small patches hear and there for the sake of those who still play. Perhaps MAYBE in one of those patches you guys will get your Helves because fuck it the game is dead anyway.

As long as WoW retains its subs, Blizz will never shoot themselves in the foot by wasting a race slot on something so incredibly lazy on one faction while the Horde's counterpart is a fresh reskin or completely new rig.

[Katchii]

Pandaren are not and never have been the answer to these concerns or issues.

Pandaren were conceived as neutral and introduced as neutral and their entire storyline in Mists of Pandaria was based on their neutrality. They were an experiment to see if neutral races could work, which if successful would have been a boon for the hard pressed development team as they would only have to create one race model and one starting experience, rather than two. The Pandaren experiment was a failure, with one Blizzard dev tweeting that they didn't like the cost to faction diversity Pandaren imposed, faction diversity being the reason High Elves were rejected.

A neutral race was a mistake. Just because they made that mistake does not mean they are obligated to repeat it. And given it has been over six years since Pandaria was added to the game, and no other neutral race has been added to the game despite there being three further expansions and three further opportunities to do so, I think it is safe to say we won't be seeing any further neutral races. After all, Blizzard does not need neutral races to save time anymore. The Allied race system does away with the need for starting experiences and allows the re-use of existing models.

Having said that, the concept does not apply to Blood/High Elves. Blood Elves are already a playable race and have been a core part of the Horde for the past thirteen years. The lore lets us know they represent an overwhelming majority of the thalassian elf population. The only thing that is done by those who cite the neutral Pandaren as an example is that they implicitly admit that Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race.

I brought them up simply because your argument is having to do with having an identical looking race with identical history etc... Since both factions have a literally identical race, the argument against having another one rings a bit shallow. Especially since the reasoning behind the split with HvA Pandaren is functionally identical to why there would be Blood Elves on the Horde and High Elves on the Alliance; political/ideological differences.

That point cuts both ways. I could just as easily say that those who want High Elves should wear full armor on their Void Elves and never take it off. Void Elves and Blood Elves are not the same race, one is the true High Elf, the other is a variant transformed by void energy into it's own thing.

Again, I only brought it up to point out that the physical, in-game visual similarities already exist, so using that as an excuse not to do it is a shallow reason not to do it

Similarity is not being identical. Void Elves have their own lore, their own aesthetic and their own theme. They are former Blood/High Elves but they have been sufficiently differentiated that they do not tread on the toes of the Blood Elves or the Horde, which playable Alliance High Elves would. I have stated previously I was not keen to share the thalassian elf model with the Alliance, nor am I keen that a modified night elf model ended up on the Horde. But while it happened, both groups are sufficiently different from their parents that they do not damage faction diversity too much.

All true, and I agree.

Void Elves would not have been created had they any intention of adding Alliance High Elves in future. Void Elves were clearly conceived to be a compromise for Alliance players to play something like a Blood Elf (and Blood Elves ARE High Elves). And it is also true that as much as the existence of Blood Elves was a barrier to Alliance High Elves, Void Elves are a further lock as we never discuss how playable Alliance High Elves would undermine THEM. If Blizzard was to do something on this question in future, it is far likelier they would use Void Elves as a vehicle rather than blow an Allied race slot on an exact duplicate of an existing race.

I agree with all of this.

But Pandaren have already set a precedent for being able to have the exact same race on both factions without compromising faction identity, with the only difference being their ideologies. If they were to implement Alliance High Elves, the only game play difference would be that they wouldn't start as neutral like the Pandaren. They could easily add some kind of text, or have their opening little cinematic experience/ intro quest that goes over why these elves are loyal to the Alliance rather than be named Blood Elves of the Horde.

I don't think they will ever do it, nor do I think they should given all the reasoning above, but they feasibly COULD if they wanted to since they have everything they need to feasibly justify it.

[Kithelle]

If Blizzard wished to, they could write any sort of story they wanted to justify it but that isn't the problem. The problem is fundamentally one of gameplay, that Blood Elves are High Elves, that High Elves are playable, and that giving the Alliance that option is unfair to the Horde and damaging to the division between the factions (which is predicated on race). Think of the changes Void Elves had to go through so they could be justified as an Allied race.

High Elves cannot be differentiated culturally from Blood Elves, anymore than a West Londoner can be differentiated from an East Londoner. High Elves cannot be differentiated aesthetically from Blood Elves, anymore than your friend with a weird hairstyle and tattoos can be differentiated from your friend with a boring hairstyle and no tattoos.

The lore, that the High Elves are too few in number, is a story explanation for a gameplay fact, that they cannot be made different from an already available race. It is possible to differentiate a group of thalassian elves enough that they could be included as an allied race. This was proved with Void Elves, but that level of difference means they are no longer Blood/High Elves, which is the entire point.

You cannot talk about differentiating Alliance High Elves from Blood Elves and still have them remaining High Elves, as Blood Elves are High Elves. You cannot be the same and different at the same time.

I'm sorry...that all you can do is parrot the same garbage over and over that isn't true, I feel bad for you.

I feel bad that you're parroting the same thing that even Ion himself said there could be High Elves in the game some day...kinda sad really that you need to hold onto those stupid quotes like they're your bible just because you have a burning hatred like a rabid furious dog, because you want to keep people from enjoying what they want to enjoy.

I really feel bad for you, I'm sorry and maybe some day you'll find some peace.

[Malacrass]

Ill tell you when High Elves will be handed to you guys. When the expansion cycle finally ends and WoW becomes free to play.

Blizz will probably just add small patches hear and there for the sake of those who still play. Perhaps MAYBE in one of those patches you guys will get your Helves because fuck it the game is dead anyway.

This is also my bet.
They keep all the small fanservice perks for a time when the integrity of the game isn't a top priority anymore (hell, it already isn't with the intro of Voidelves and Nightborn).

Things like Hide Chest, transmog restrictions of weapons and "fun" items, blue eyes for Blood Elves and/or blue eyes and fair skin for Void Elves, abolishing racials or letting people choose etc.

[AngerFork]

Ill tell you when High Elves will be handed to you guys. When the expansion cycle finally ends and WoW becomes free to play.

Blizz will probably just add small patches hear and there for the sake of those who still play. Perhaps MAYBE in one of those patches you guys will get your Helves because fuck it the game is dead anyway.

As long as WoW retains its subs, Blizz will never shoot themselves in the foot by wasting a race slot on something so incredibly lazy on one faction while the Horde's counterpart is a fresh reskin or completely new rig.

IMO, I think it will be in well before that. My guess is that they are planning perhaps to allow Alliance Races to be on the Horde and vice-versa (keeping the faction lines intact, but letting people play with their friends without regard to race or faction) using some sort of end-of-expansion thing. From here, it's just a new face design and perhaps a different name tag for Alliance-based Blood Elves to call themselves High Elves.

[FlubberPuddy]

I'll reply to those who quoted in time, but short on time so just wanted to throw this here: https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...yers/?sort=top

The comments with thousands or hundreds of upvotes all show how many support the hypocritical nature of Void Elves over High Elves while at same time giving Horde Nightborne, talking about making Allied Races different and adding Lightforged Draenei, the frustrations of Alliance constantly getting teased with High Elves (even with Void Elves being here), and how the Void Elves are so similar to Blood Elves already that Blizzard should've just gone with High Elves in the first place.

Much easier to see the numbers a bit more clearly on how many of those support those points compared to the same few individuals here, both for and against.

I'd be interested in seeing someone post some "Blue eyes for Blood Elves" or "Blood Elves are High Elves" and the response for that would be. Doesn't seem to be as popular on Reddit than Alliance High Elves.

[Fyersing]

The point is that High Elves do not have a nation state with a national leader, the best they have is a subset of militarized High Elves who live in Dalaran, Vereesa therefore can only speak for and give commands to members of the Silver Covenant, not all High Elves, just the ones living in Dalaran AND serving as part of the Silver Covenant; not the ones living around the world, not the ones living in Stormwind, and not the ones who aren't part of her militarized faction.

...and? I just don't see what you're trying to assert.

The first bit of what you're saying is a very peculiar assertion, suggesting that because they (the Silver Covenant) don't have control over an ethnically homogeneous population center, they therefore aren't plausible candidates to be made playable. Are we forgetting that at one point or another throughout WoW's lifetime, this same status (i.e. an unclear status as "vagrant cultures") has been applied to an enormous majority of all playable races (Trolls, Gnomes, Worgen, Goblins, Void Elves, Lightforged Draenei, and Mag'har Orcs; and if you delve into the narrative more generally, meaning outside of the scope of WoW, you'll find that "homelessness" has plagued others such as Humans, Orcs, Blood Elves, and Forsaken. Hell, the most current patch has placed Night Elves and Forsaken into this exact situation, with both of their homelands demolished.)

The second, and honestly even more bizarre, assertion is that because Vereesa Windrunner is only the leader of the Silver Covenant the scope of her authority is limited to just the Silver Covenant. Um... and? This is no different than any other faction, Horde or Alliance.

High Elves do not see Dalaran as theirs by right, it was never theirs. It's a human city, originally the capital of the Arathi human kingdom of Dalaran, it's run by the council of 6 of the Kirin Tor, of which, there are no High Elves. It's not even close to "theirs."

You're mistaking the meaning I intended with the usage of "theirs", it sounds like.

I'm not suggesting that they view it as "theirs" in the sense that it is controlled by or belongs to High Elves, but as "theirs" in the sense that they've lived there for centuries (or perhaps even millennia) and as such have become completely naturalized into the culture. The same way it shouldn't be surprising that someone born and raised in Texas would be inculcated in the common culture therein, which could then be easily utilized to create a dichotomy of "us" and "them", with regards to people who are sufficiently Texan and people who aren't.

It's very likely that the Silver Covenant sees itself as an organization which specifically upholds the cultural values of Dalaran, and not the cultural values of the broader population which employs the demonym of High Elf. This is circumstantially corroborated by the Silver Covenant's proximity to Dalaran in virtually every confrontation, as well as by their continued interest and usage of magic (while pretty much all of the other clusters of High Elves either weaned themselves off of magic entirely, struggled with and ultimately found ways of coping with their addiction, or succumbed and either became Withered or corpses).

While on the subject of the broader population, I have to admit that I've never really been a fan of the idea of playable groups being implemented as cultural grab-bags (i.e. lumping a bunch of closely related groupings into a larger, broader categorization, like the Mag'har Orcs). This means that using all of these disparate groups (i.e. Highvale Elves, Allerian Stronghold Elves, etc.) to create some kind of hodge-podge identity doesn't really excite me -- especially when these isolated groupings are more-or-less culturally identical to modern Blood Elves but without access to the same resources, and the Silver Covenant represents the only objectively successful population of High Elves, and who have been defined as being culturally divergent (as opposed to just politically divergent, though they are that as well).

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Silver_Covenant
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=29660/grand-marauder-sai
http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Silver_Covenant

There are several non High Elf NPCs that are part of the Silver Covenant, some Dwarves, Gnomes, and Humans. Most are merchant types, but some are military as well.

The only way you can use this source, and believe it to be gospel, is if you also believe the Sunreavers aren't a fundamentally Blood Elven organization; because there are literally animals faction-tagged as Sunreavers.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Rhukah
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Nargut
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Steen_Horngrass (LOL)

I'm not spouting head canon here, I'm basing everything I'm saying on the established lore. If you're going to come up with arguments to refute my claims, please do better than "off the top of my head" when you're asking for actual sources from me. It's a bit hypocritical.

It's precisely headcanon.

The "established lore" is that the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers are organizations developed by and for High Elves and Blood Elves, respectively. What you're attempting to do is what you simultaneously chastise the pro-HE crowd for doing, which is taking the inclusion of an NPC in some specific circumstance and extrapolating upon the meaning behind said inclusion. The only difference is that when people point to High Elven NPC's, they're narratively recognized -- whereas, despite them being tagged as such, the story directly refutes that such membership exists.

As there are literally people faction-tagged to both the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers who are neither HE or BE, despite both organizations being referred to in- and out-of-game as being racially-oriented, and 100% of these cases are within each groups respective "hub" within Dalaran (Northrend)... we can pretty safely conclude that it is a mechanic of gameplay, and nothing more.

First, that schism only mentions two groups, but doesn't really mention the diaspora the High Elves are in. So, the claim you're making amounts to saying that because the schism involved two groups, that those two groups must still be just two groups; Blood Elves and High Elves.

Um, it amounts to no such thing. These are all statements of fact:

• There were High Elves living in/around Quel'thalas, and High Elves living in/around Dalaran.
• The High Elves living in/around Quel'thalas, who survived the Scourge's invasion of Quel'thalas, would eventually re-organize as the Blood Elves.
• The High Elves living in/around Dalaran (and, briefly, Theramore or Stormwind), would maintain their social and political ties to Dalaran and the Alliance.

The only bit of this which is currently open to interpretation is precisely how many of the High Elves living in/around Dalaran remained in/around Dalaran, after Kael'thas Sunstrider called for the support of his kinfolk to reclaim Quel'thalas. The notion of none of these High Elves answering the call is just as plausible as many/most of them answering the call; and while the continued presence of High Elf NPC's suggests that a great deal of the High Elves living in/around Dalaran elected not to assist Quel'thalas, it remains speculative conjecture at best to discuss numbers.

Second, you're implying that the vast majority of remaining High Elves both live in Dalaran and are serving in a military capacity as part of the Silver Covenant. So...the lore information doesn't add up to what you're implying, if the High Elves are in a state of diaspora across Stormwind, Dalaran, Outland and their lodges around the world (but primarily Qel'Danil), how can "the absolute majority" of them both be living in Dalaran AND be part of the relatively small militarized faction there?

It seems like you're asking, "How can the Silver Covenant constitute a numerical majority, relative to the other disparate groups of High Elves?", and I'm really not sure what type of answer you're looking for. To be frank, I can't even really grasp what you consider to be contentious about the notion of the Silver Covenant representing the largest congregation of High Elves.

Are you trying to suggest that, insofar as the narrative is concerned, it is more plausible that the 27 now-deceased HE's at Quel'lithien or the 14 thoroughly disassociated HE's at Quel'danil represent a larger population that the hundreds of Silver Covenant NPC's?

You have no source that states specifically that the absolute majority of remaining High Elves live in Dalaran AND are part of the Silver Covenant. I'm just bringing up that not every single High Elf is serving in a military capacity, or living in Dalaran. Many High Elves live in Stormwind, and there are High Elves living within the Alliance that are not serving in a military capacity and are therefore not part of the Silver Covenant, they're just living their lives within Alliance territory.

I see what you're saying about the Silver Covenant only being the military, meaning my use of the term as a catch-all is problematic and should henceforth be changed to a term which also implies the inclusion of civilians; that being said, that there exists/existed clusters of HE's in Stormwind or Theramore doesn't really detract from what I've posited, because the Warcraft Chronicle makes it clear that these HE's are only in these places because they fled there from Dalaran.

If we were to describe the original two groups as "High Elves culturally-aligned with Quel'thalas" and "High Elves culturally-aligned with Dalaran", all of these individuals you're citing (from Stormwind, Theramore, etc.) still fall into that latter category even if they're not active members of the Silver Covenant. If they were to implement playable HE's, using this understanding, we'd basically be getting "Dalaranian Elves" and the optics of all the appropriate diaspora groupings would be updated to reflect this allegiance.

I've never stated that High Elves aren't part of the Alliance, they absolutely are. I'm saying that they aren't a separate nation state allying themselves with the Alliance, like Night Elves, Gnomes, Worgen, Humans, Dwarves, and Draenei...they're integral citizens of the cities and states they live in and are therefore just part of the Alliance population.

And I'm wondering why this matters, like, at all?

A complete lack of an official population center didn't prevent the Gnomes or Trolls from being implemented, nor can we currently expect Blizzard to remove Night Elves or Forsaken as playable options because they're both (especially the Forsaken) semi-officially living on the proverbial couches of their allies.

[Katchii]

...and? I just don't see what you're trying to assert.

The first bit of what you're saying is a very peculiar assertion, suggesting that because they (the Silver Covenant) don't have control over an ethnically homogeneous population center, they therefore aren't plausible candidates to be made playable. Are we forgetting that at one point or another throughout WoW's lifetime, this same status (i.e. an unclear status as "vagrant cultures") has been applied to an enormous majority of all playable races (Trolls, Gnomes, Worgen, Goblins, Void Elves, Lightforged Draenei, and Mag'har Orcs; and if you delve into the narrative more generally, meaning outside of the scope of WoW, you'll find that "homelessness" has plagued others such as Humans, Orcs, Blood Elves, and Forsaken. Hell, the most current patch has placed Night Elves and Forsaken into this exact situation, with both of their homelands demolished.)

The second, and honestly even more bizarre, assertion is that because Vereesa Windrunner is only the leader of the Silver Covenant the scope of her authority is limited to just the Silver Covenant. Um... and? This is no different than any other faction, Horde or Alliance.

I've never stated that, at all. No where in my discussions have I asserted that they shouldn't be playable. I'm debating the claims surrounding your assertions that the Silver Covenant is the population center for all Alliance aligned High Elves.

My point is that they don't have an alliance WITH the Alliance, it's that the High Elves are already an integral part of the Alliance population. This difference doesn't mean anything in regards to them being playable or not.

You're mistaking the meaning I intended with the usage of "theirs", it sounds like.

I'm not suggesting that they view it as "theirs" in the sense that it is controlled by or belongs to High Elves, but as "theirs" in the sense that they've lived there for centuries (or perhaps even millennia) and as such have become completely naturalized into the culture. The same way it shouldn't be surprising that someone born and raised in Texas would be inculcated in the common culture therein, which could then be easily utilized to create a dichotomy of "us" and "them", with regards to people who are sufficiently Texan and people who aren't.

It's very likely that the Silver Covenant sees itself as an organization which specifically upholds the cultural values of Dalaran, and not the cultural values of the broader population which employs the demonym of High Elf. This is circumstantially corroborated by the Silver Covenant's proximity to Dalaran in virtually every confrontation, as well as by their continued interest and usage of magic (while pretty much all of the other clusters of High Elves either weaned themselves off of magic entirely, struggled with and ultimately found ways of coping with their addiction, or succumbed and either became Withered or corpses).

While on the subject of the broader population, I have to admit that I've never really been a fan of the idea of playable groups being implemented as cultural grab-bags (i.e. lumping a bunch of closely related groupings into a larger, broader categorization, like the Mag'har Orcs). This means that using all of these disparate groups (i.e. Highvale Elves, Allerian Stronghold Elves, etc.) to create some kind of hodge-podge identity doesn't really excite me -- especially when these isolated groupings are more-or-less culturally identical to modern Blood Elves but without access to the same resources, and the Silver Covenant represents the only objectively successful population of High Elves, and who have been defined as being culturally divergent (as opposed to just politically divergent, though they are that as well).

Fair enough. This is kind of the crux of what I'm saying anyway. High Elves are fighting on behalf of the Alliance because they see the Alliance cities as they're homes, not necessarily because of some military allegiance between High Elves and the Alliance.

The only way you can use this source, and believe it to be gospel, is if you also believe the Sunreavers aren't a fundamentally Blood Elven organization; because there are literally animals faction-tagged as Sunreavers.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Rhukah
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Nargut
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Steen_Horngrass (LOL)

I provided sources that I'm using to back up my claims, they're the only sources I've got, and I even pointed out that they don't all align. So I'm not taking them as gospel, just pointing out what the sources I'm using are saying. I'm not denying they may have questionable veracity, but the point remains that there are, in-game, non High Elf NPCs aligned with the Sliver Covenant. The same can be said of the Sunreavers.

I also never claimed they weren't a High Elf centric organization, just that they weren't High Elf exclusive.

It's precisely headcanon.

The "established lore" is that the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers are organizations developed by and for High Elves and Blood Elves, respectively. What you're attempting to do is what you simultaneously chastise the pro-HE crowd for doing, which is taking the inclusion of an NPC in some specific circumstance and extrapolating upon the meaning behind said inclusion. The only difference is that when people point to High Elven NPC's, they're narratively recognized -- whereas, despite them being tagged as such, the story directly refutes that such membership exists.

As there are literally people faction-tagged to both the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers who are neither HE or BE, despite both organizations being referred to in- and out-of-game as being racially-oriented, and 100% of these cases are within each groups respective "hub" within Dalaran (Northrend)... we can pretty safely conclude that it is a mechanic of gameplay, and nothing more.

Why is it head canon? My statements are based on the information available...I'm not making any of this up, I cited my sources. Just because you disagree with it or refute my sources doesn't mean I'm pulling this stuff out of my ass.

Um, it amounts to no such thing. These are all statements of fact:

• There were High Elves living in/around Quel'thalas, and High Elves living in/around Dalaran.
• The High Elves living in/around Quel'thalas, who survived the Scourge's invasion of Quel'thalas, would eventually re-organize as the Blood Elves.
• The High Elves living in/around Dalaran (and, briefly, Theramore or Stormwind), would maintain their social and political ties to Dalaran and the Alliance.

The only bit of this which is currently open to interpretation is precisely how many of the High Elves living in/around Dalaran remained in/around Dalaran, after Kael'thas Sunstrider called for the support of his kinfolk to reclaim Quel'thalas. The notion of none of these High Elves answering the call is just as plausible as many/most of them answering the call; and while the continued presence of High Elf NPC's suggests that a great deal of the High Elves living in/around Dalaran elected not to assist Quel'thalas, it remains speculative conjecture at best to discuss numbers.

And? I never discussed numbers. You said the Silver Covenant makes up the vast majority of all remaining High Elves. My counter point is that there is no information that suggests this is true. They may be the largest single gathering of existing High Elves, that doesn't mean they account for the vast majority of all High Elves because not all High Elves that still exist, or even not all HE that live in Dalaran, are part of the Silver Covenant.

It seems like you're asking, "How can the Silver Covenant constitute a numerical majority, relative to the other disparate groups of High Elves?", and I'm really not sure what type of answer you're looking for. To be frank, I can't even really grasp what you consider to be contentious about the notion of the Silver Covenant representing the largest congregation of High Elves.

Are you trying to suggest that, insofar as the narrative is concerned, it is more plausible that the 27 now-deceased HE's at Quel'lithien or the 14 thoroughly disassociated HE's at Quel'danil represent a larger population that the hundreds of Silver Covenant NPC's?

I'm not debating whether they can or can't be the majority, I'm saying the existing information we have doesn't confirm the claim. As you yourself stated, it's speculative conjecture to discuss numbers. And, non named NPCs are not listed in any WoW data base you just see them walking around, so you can't use an NPC data base comparison to support the claim.

What we KNOW is that the High Elves are in diaspora, that the Silver Covenant is a large congregation of High Elves and that High Elves live in several Alliance cities...what we DON'T know is exactly how many High Elves aren't part of the Silver Covenant, exactly how many live elsewhere and therefore can't conclusively state that the Silver Covenant has a numerical majority.

It would make sense if they did, but there's nothing in writing or in-game that confirms that claim. That's all I'm saying.

I see what you're saying about the Silver Covenant only being the military, meaning my use of the term as a catch-all is problematic and should henceforth be changed to a term which also implies the inclusion of civilians; that being said, that there exists/existed clusters of HE's in Stormwind or Theramore doesn't really detract from what I've posited, because the Warcraft Chronicle makes it clear that these HE's are only in these places because they fled there from Dalaran.

If we were to describe the original two groups as "High Elves culturally-aligned with Quel'thalas" and "High Elves culturally-aligned with Dalaran", all of these individuals you're citing (from Stormwind, Theramore, etc.) still fall into that latter category even if they're not active members of the Silver Covenant. If they were to implement playable HE's, using this understanding, we'd basically be getting "Dalaranian Elves" and the optics of all the appropriate diaspora groupings would be updated to reflect this allegiance.

Fair enough.

And I'm wondering why this matters, like, at all?

A complete lack of an official population center didn't prevent the Gnomes or Trolls from being implemented, nor can we currently expect Blizzard to remove Night Elves or Forsaken as playable options because they're both (especially the Forsaken) semi-officially living on the proverbial couches of their allies.

I'm not debating whether they should be added or not, I've already stated multiple times in this thread that I don't really care either way, that enough lore exists for Blizzard to implement them if they wanted to. If they were to be made playable, using the Silver Covenant as the faction they came from would make complete sense; it's the military faction of High Elves, has a racial leader and has a city they call home. I'm strictly debating what the lore does or doesn't say.

Also, the Gnomes and Trolls, and now Night Elves and Forsaken, don't lack a population center they lack a home. Their populations followed their leaders to where they are now. The High Elves scattered. That doesn't mean they can't or won't re congregate, but they didn't move as a unified High Elf population under a unified leadership like the Gnomes, Trolls, Night Elves and Forsaken did when they lost their homes.