Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Strippling]

Now there is a specific group of unplayable elves on Alliance that call themselves High Elves. At times when I see people making counter arguments to adding High Elves to the Alliance by stating that race is already playable through Blood Elves on Horde - this is a red herring (fallacy).

It's a red herring because what is being asked for in the discussion is a specific group identifying themselves as High Elves (which just happens to also be the name of their race - thanks Blizzard ) that exist to this day and since release of WoW on the Alliance.

- If Blizzard had decided that group's name were Silver Elves or Human thot Elves or w/e you want to fancy then this same specific group would continue being asked for, and why is this, why for instance aren't there tons of Ogre for Horde discussion?

It's because Blizzard continues to put this group of elves in the Alliance faction and Alliance players' face. Serious about this one. There wouldn't be as strong as push for "High Elves" throughout the years had Blizzard not increased their visibility in the Alliance for as long as they've done and continue to do today.

- We learn even recently here about how Island expedition teams are made of members of the opposing faction:



All of Horde's Island expedition teams do not contain any faction of a race that is unplayable by Horde players. Alliance's does. It contains a High Elf NPC - which is said to be a member of the Alliance as per Jeremy Feasel.

So what do we have?

- A group on Alliance that calls themselves High Elves
- Blizzard continually showing this group fighting for/alongside Alliance
- Blizzard adding more and more of this group among the Alliance

It should then not be a surprise why this request has been longstanding as it has for the lifetime of WoW's existence. And it's a red herring when people try to try to say "you can't have this race because we have it and its ours" when it's always been about 1) the group and 2) this group has existed on Alliance before Blood Elves were enrolled into the Horde.

And as a special point, the Blood Elf race is now available to both Alliance and Horde at this point anyway. This never stopped the High Elf requests, in fact it seems to have fueled them more. At this point if it's truly confusing for you to understand that what is being asked for is a "faction" of a race and not the race itself then please look to the example of how there are multiple types of Humans (Stormwind, Gilnean, Kul'Tiran, Undead) to see clearer what is meant. Forsaken are DEAD Humans but still Humans nonetheless.

False. There have been some requests for Ogres (which is understandable as they're unique), but requests for Ogres is dwarfed by the number of requests for high elfs... when high elfs A) would be a reskin of a Horde race and B) the main high elven society is Allied to the Horde. The fact that high elfs are more requested than Ogres despite Ogres being more unique in every aspect than high elfs shows that it's not about the name, it's not about the lore... it's about the aesthetic, cause to most people blood elfs are the best looking race and people want them on the Alliance. The lore is just an aside to the aesthetics. Heck, even a recent thread on the official forums about giving void elfs the high elven customization (which would effectively newt void elf lore) was evidence that people really just want the aesthetic. Because Ogres are "ugly", there isn't as big a drive for them compared to high elfs.

In response to the italic: You're really reaching if you have to use an unnamed NPC on one expedition team to further your case for playable Alliance high elfs. There's a goblin in the SI:7, should goblins be an Alliance AR? Alterac humans have helped the Horde before, should they be a Horde AR?

A major problem with Alliance high elfs is that the don't bring any uniqueness other than a small bit of lore which is essentially connected to blood elf lore. They would effectively be blue eyed blood elfs or light skinned void elfs (pick one, still the same thing)... I mean c'mon... you're asking for a group of elfs that would bring next to no visual distinction from existing elven groups. Secondly, they'd detract from the main group of thalassian elfs (the ones in the Horde) and I personally believe they would deeply detract from the void elfs.

Do you ever notice that Ogres don't receive the same backlash as high elfs? Despite them being in the same position as high elfs (both have been allied to the Horde or Alliance respectively, but neither are playable). Do you know why this is? Well I'm going to speculate that A) they wouldn't detract from the Alliance, as there are no playable ogres on the Alliance and B) are visually distinct and unique from other races.

On a side note, can I ask you a serious question? How do you think Alliance players (who don't want to play a high elf) would/should react if high elfs became playable, resulting in their faction not receiving a unique AR (just a reskin of blood/void elf) as opposed to the Horde who would assumedly receive a more unique AR?

[FlubberPuddy]

False. There have been some requests for Ogres (which is understandable as they're unique), but requests for Ogres is dwarfed by the number of requests for high elfs... when high elfs A) would be a reskin of a Horde race and B) the main high elven society is Allied to the Horde. The fact that high elfs are more requested than Ogres despite Ogres being more unique in every aspect than high elfs shows that it's not about the name, it's not about the lore... it's about the aesthetic, cause to most people blood elfs are the best looking race and people want them on the Alliance. The lore is just an aside to the aesthetics. Heck, even a recent thread on the official forums about giving void elfs the high elven customization (which would effectively newt void elf lore) was evidence that people really just want the aesthetic. Because Ogres are "ugly", there isn't as big a drive for them compared to high elfs.

So you agree High Elf request completely overshadows Ogres and use every other descriptive possible besides the most obvious one: Popular. High Elves are popular, that's simply all there is to say about it. Elves in general are going to be more popular over most other types of fantasy races.

In response to the italic: You're really reaching if you have to use an unnamed NPC on one expedition team to further your case for playable Alliance high elfs. There's a goblin in the SI:7, should goblins be an Alliance AR? Alterac humans have helped the Horde before, should they be a Horde AR?

Take it up with Jeremy Feasel if you have an issue with the statement. All expedition teams are representative of their faction by his own words, and there happens to be a High Elf on the Alliance Exp Team, therefore High Elves are a member of the Alliance.

As for your bold, you are trying to compare 1 single Goblin in the Alliance to the myriad of High Elves that exist on the Alliance? That argument defeats itself.

As for Alterac Humans, if you can provide proof that there exists a consistent group of Humans that continually has helped the Horde through multiple expansions then you have a point here. If you cannot then this argument also defeats itself.

Again, High Elves are in a unique position - no other Alliance race is in as unique a position as them with their overall Alliance involvement and Horde has no equivalent group to compare to the High Elves on Alliance that have stayed consistent allies through multiple expansions.

A major problem with Alliance high elfs is that the don't bring any uniqueness other than a small bit of lore which is essentially connected to blood elf lore. They would effectively be blue eyed blood elfs or light skinned void elfs (pick one, still the same thing)... I mean c'mon... you're asking for a group of elfs that would bring next to no visual distinction from existing elven groups. Secondly, they'd detract from the main group of thalassian elfs (the ones in the Horde) and I personally believe they would deeply detract from the void elfs.

It's been said multiple times already: High Elves bring the unique position and theme of a race that prioritizes your friends over your racist family, they're not too proud to intermingle with other races as stated by Elisande, and they're a people who have left or been exiled from their kingdom and have had to make do with what they have with their Allies.

That's a unique take that is not shared by Blood Elves, nor Void Elves. Blood Elves still have everything, and are pompous elves. Void Elves carry with them the power of the Void.

You argue that High Elves wouldn't bring much uniqueness but then we know that Wildhammer Dwarves are on the way, dwarves who for all intents and purposes look like Bronzebeard dwarves but with blue tattoos. We know WH are coming as evidenced by Feasel, so to say that added playable race options need to be unique is moot, because once they're added (and again, we know they are coming because they're in the works) then that's a playable option added that isn't as unique as the other existing options.

Also, High Elves are pretty Vanilla, just like Stormwind Humans are pretty Vanilla, just like Mag'har are pretty Vanilla, just like Bronzebeard Dwarves are pretty Vanilla, etc. The point is, sometimes people want to play a pretty Vanilla group of a race. Blood Elves aren't very Vanilla at all and you can refer to Obelisk's numerous posts about how they have been written to be a subversion of generic High Elves. So Blood Elves can't claim to be Vanilla High Elves and at the same time a subversion of High Elves. Which means that archetype of High Elf is still available for request.

Do you ever notice that Ogres don't receive the same backlash as high elfs? Despite them being in the same position as high elfs (both have been allied to the Horde or Alliance respectively, but neither are playable). Do you know why this is? Well I'm going to speculate that A) they wouldn't detract from the Alliance, as there are no playable ogres on the Alliance and B) are visually distinct and unique from other races.

Ogres are in the same position as High Elves? Please show me where the same group of Ogres allied with the Horde and have aided the Horde in TBC, Wrath, Cataclysm, MoP, Legion, and BFA. Then I'll agree that Ogres and High Elves are in the same position.

Also I'm going to speculate that while there are Ogre fans and passionate ones at that, the reason for no same backlash is 1) Most people don't care about getting playable Ogres, and 2) There isn't a lot to evidence that Ogres are a viable Allied Race for Horde compared to other races the Horde has been allying with and are more prominent within the current timeline.

See this is the main difference, High Elves continue to be shown in the face of Alliance players as allies with the Alliance. The same can't be said for Horde Ogres, Horde Humans.

On a side note, can I ask you a serious question? How do you think Alliance players (who don't want to play a high elf) would/should react if high elfs became playable, resulting in their faction not receiving a unique AR (just a reskin of blood/void elf) as opposed to the Horde who would assumedly receive a more unique AR?

Is this really a serious question? How do you think people who don't give a shit about Lightforged Draenei, Void Elves, Kul'Tirans, and Dark Iron feel about them? The answer should be obvious.

If a race is released that a particular player doesn't care for, then it doesn't matter how many different races are added, they're not going to care. They're just going to hope the one they actually want eventually becomes playable.

Again you keep arguing for "a unique" option without realizing that there is already starting to be many unique options and there is a large crowd of people that like the Vanilla version of things. Which is why we see things like Humans, Blood Elves, and Night Elves be the most popularly picked races. Because they're the closest to identify with as we are Humans ourselves.

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There's enough lore there to firmly establish them as a viable race to make playable, I think the lore reasoning Blizzard has been using up to this point, that their numbers are just too low to make a viable playable race, is also viable. And I also agree that giving the Alliance what would essentially amount to Blue Eyed Blood Elves with maybe some additional cosmetic options would detract from the Horde identity for Blood Elves, but now it would also detract from Void Elves since they're playable. However, Blizzard isn't really sticking to their guns on the numbers thing, because they keep introducing more and more High Elves. So...which is it Blizzard? Do they have numbers so low that they're dying out as a race or are there enough of them out there that you can keep throwing them at the Horde and yet STILL keep introducing more of them rather than see a dwindling High Elf population?

The thing is, with recent word that Wildhammer Dwarves are in the works, it shows that Blizzard isn't as concerned with "complete uniqueness" as they have been within BFA. And honestly it makes sense, if you roll out a feature like Allied Races you want to show off your unique choices first as much as you can otherwise it gives not as strong an impression to others. People are already calling some of the AR lazy reskins, imagine if options like Wildhammer Dwarves and High Elves were released first. Even though there's an obvious audience for them and many of those would be happy to receive them, it would just make those reskin type of comments even louder.

I still think that Blizzard should add fan favorite races, and while sure new races are great too - the Alliance has had a smattering of that already. It's time for some old-fan favorites. But all of this is being said for after BFA, I don't expect to see any race I actually have an interest in playing come in BFA because they'll most likely be new and fresh allies.

I don't care either way, I just want the lore for it to make sense. Giving High Elf like cosmetic options to Void Elves would be stupid IMO and would please the aesthetic crowd, but at this point in time it wouldn't make sense from a Lore perspective and would quite obviously just be a way to get the pro Alliance High Elf crowd to STFU about it.

I agree, I honestly do not mind the wait - there is plenty of other things to do in the meantime. I would rather they add more lore first to High Elves that makes it a natural stand-alone option, or if they must plunk them in with Void Elves then there should be an extremely necessary reason for why a group of Elves that are less reliant on magic are suddenly diving into one of the most chaotic kinds of it.

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It was never a mystery that you guys could be silenced, or "appeased", with mere barber-shop options. There's always more than one way.

Rest assured, after 436 pages or so and 14 years of pleading your cases, the anti-HE bunch are far from the side who "nags". Our stance is quite simple. It is highly unlikely that the Alliance will ever get a model-copy of Blood Elves with blue eyes. That stance is corroborated by Ion and several others who've spoken on the matter on or off the record with more evidence than "I talked to Ion at Blizzcon, this is what he said in my own words...". I've personally never claimed you guys wouldn't get a customization option to Void Elves to sate your... nagging.

Anything is possible. Even the eventual outcome that they are never implemented is possible.

Sure everything is possible, but that continuing the High Elf request is encouraged by the developer, means that "it never happening" isn't as likely a fate as others have deemed it to be.

Again, no one answered me about this before, I'll try again:

Has there ever been a moment in WoW's history where the developers encouraged players to discuss something and it never came through?

[FlubberPuddy]

SNIP
I can't really recall Blizzard ever saying: "Hey guys, it'd be great if you all would discuss this and let us know what you think." Not saying you're wrong here. Are you implying that Blizzard has encouraged discussion about High Elves, with the hope of implementation?

Besides your last paragraph, you're talking about what players have asked for when I said what are topics developers have encouraged players to discuss and never delivered on. There's a huge difference there so you pointing out regular ol' stuff players have been asking for is frankly a waste of time.

And yeah they have: https://www.wowhead.com/news=288446/...son-origin-of-

"When asked if customization for Void Elves along the lines of High Elf fantasy would ever come, Blizzard responded that there's always a chance but be respectful when making feedback posts."

And if you watch the actual part in the video where Alex is answering that question, he specifically says "don't give up hope, but be respectful when making your posts about it" or something like that - it's in the video.

This is very strictly encouraging the discussion to continue, regardless of where any one individual stands on the matter.

[FlubberPuddy]

SNIP

Splitting hairs because you can't answer or don't know the answer is useless. Whether I used topics or discuss something, the main point is what did devs encourage players to talk about and never delivered on? If you have no answer that is okay dude.

I will take this to mean you have no example of it, giving strength to my point that encouraged discussion topics by the developers usually results in it being delivered in some sort.

[FlubberPuddy]

No, there are plenty of things that are discussed that aren't delivered. You're bordering on delusion. I can provide you dozens of TOPICS.

You have yet to give me one discussion or topic or whatever you would like to call it that developers encourage people to keep talking about and hasn't been delivered on.

Pay attention to the bold. Re-read it numerous times.

If it's just players discussing or talking about something or whatever without developer encouragement it doesn't count.

I'll leave it at this.

[melzas]

So... Now that forsaken night elves are a thing, we could potentially get another night elf allied race on the horde.

Guess what alliance race would be the perfect counterweight to that.

[FlubberPuddy]

So... Now that forsaken night elves are a thing, we could potentially get another night elf allied race on the horde.

Guess what alliance race would be the perfect counterweight to that.

I'm not sure if it's a serious thing though, seems like this whole expansion is filled with "could it become an Allied Race?" and I bet Blizzard did that purposely.

I'm done derailing the thread further

Thanks!

[melzas]

I'm not sure if it's a serious thing though, seems like this whole expansion is filled with "could it become an Allied Race?" and I bet Blizzard did that purposely.



Thanks!

Honestly I see this more as an open door, in case they ever want to introduce high elves, they will have forsaken night elves to balance this faction wise.

[FlubberPuddy]

Honestly I see this more as an open door, in case they ever want to introduce high elves, they will have forsaken night elves to balance this faction wise.

Definitely possible. Atm the Allied Races are pretty much the only things keeping me around, but even that is slowing down as I just have the Exalted portion to get to with Zandalari.

A lot of the systems in BFA feel like a slog to go through, maybe bigger numbers do trick my brain but Legion it didn't feel like a slog when completing things.

I hope to see more AR news in the future, and ofc hopefully High Elves.

[FlubberPuddy]

I just don't understand how we can just disregard Vereesa Windrunner. All three sisters have incredible importance, they're all born leaders, so we'll see how they handle it, but if High Elves are ever added, they should be a neutral race, to avoid more controversy with players. And they should come with an entirely new model, with more upright posing (in lieu of contrapposto), and be a featured part of an expansion.

Regardless, I think adding any more elves in the next several years will REALLY piss off a large majority of the remaining playerbase.

Elves don't have to come anytime soon, the majority of people asking for them understand other races should get their AR equivalent first.

Agree about new model, more upright, and featured for an expansion. More development should occur.

Don't agree about neutral race bit. There's nothing shown about how general Blood Elf pop feels about High Elves who are neutral or on Alliance other than hating them or thinking they're human bootlickers.

That some like Lor'themar allow pilgrimage is not the same as High Elves being openly welcomed back into Silvermoon.

On the other hand we very clearly have been shown multiple times in WoW the rivalry and animosity between High Elves and Blood Elves. Even High Elves who are neutral (like Quel'lithien Lodge, even if they later went Wretched).

We've also seen more about Blood Elf sentiments on coming back into the Alliance rather than High Elf sentiments on joining the Horde.

Therefore in all likeliness, if High Elves were added then they'd be strictly Alliance. OR Another possibility is Blizzard gets more lenient with the factions and allows Blood Elves to join the Alliance, since this is actually an unresolved side story segment that is brought up even in BFA.

[RangerDaz]

So... Now that forsaken night elves are a thing, we could potentially get another night elf allied race on the horde.

Guess what alliance race would be the perfect counterweight to that.

I would be in favor of:
ALLIANCE: High Elves
HORDE: Sanlayn

Not hyped:
ALLIANCE: Night elf Worgen
HORDE: Night Elf Forsaken

I would also love to play a Dark Ranger hero class, which would probably would be partially an elven class.

PS: i have Night Elf, Nightborne, Blood elf and Void elf level 120 chars.

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Blood Elves won't be switching factions, and they can write up any story they want to allow High Elves into neutral territory, which is the ONLY way they'll ever a playable race. No way one side gets three elves and the other doesn't, and we're not going to start shifting species between factions entirely.

It would be a bad business move, and completely ridiculous from a story perspective!

Void elves say hi.


I dont get the bad business move part as well. They would swim in money with high elf race changes...

[Zandalariprelate]

I would be in favor of:
ALLIANCE: High Elves
HORDE: Sanlayn

Not hyped:
ALLIANCE: Night elf Worgen
HORDE: Night Elf Forsaken

I would also love to play a Dark Ranger hero class, which would probably would be partially an elven class.

PS: i have Night Elf, Nightborne, Blood elf and Void elf level 120 chars.

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Void elves say hi.


I dont get the bad business move part as well. They would swim in money with high elf race changes...

Stop right there, worgen and forsaken nelf would be the most silly thing they could ever did, heck I would take the fallout gnomes anf furries goblin any day before such thing.

If the alliance get high elves, then the horde should get ogres to pair with the wc2 theme, other combination will be terrible bad

[FlubberPuddy]

Blood Elves won't be switching factions, and they can write up any story they want to allow High Elves into neutral territory, which is the ONLY way they'll ever a playable race. No way one side gets three elves and the other doesn't, and we're not going to start shifting species between factions entirely.

It would be a bad business move, and completely ridiculous from a story perspective!

You didn't really counter any of my points where I show that High Elves haven't been portrayed in a neutral manner, therefore I still don't see how they'd have to become neutral in order to become playable.

You just latched onto my last point, and didn't even understand it correctly. I didn't say anything of "Blood Elves must go Alliance" or "they will eventually go Alliance", just that if High Elves aren't added, there is still the story thread of "Will Blood Elves come back to the Alliance" that Blizzard brought up in MoP and brought up again in BFA.

Especially also that there is speculation of doing away with factions at some point, and Alex Afrasiabi saying he's rather have both factions unite over creating more factions than just Horde and Alliance.

None of this is about having all elves on one side or having an elf hard-on. Which just shows you're not looking to really discuss what's actually said but just looking for opportunities to shit on others.

[The Silver Covenant]

It is the same sense of ownership we feel over Undead or Goblin or Tauren or Orc or any other aspect of a Horde race, something that now comprises a unique part of Horde identity which would be diminished by being compelled to share it and that sense of identity is now nearly thirteen years old.

It is further the same sense of ownership that Alliance players feel over High Elves or Humans or Dwarfs or any other aspect of an Alliance race — something that has always comprised a unique part of Alliance identity has been diminished by the Blood Elves being given to the Horde and that sense of identity is now over twenty years years old.

tl;dr: You're arguing the main reason why High Elves should be playable by the Alliance.

[Obelisk Kai]

It is further the same sense of ownership that Alliance players feel over High Elves or Humans or Dwarfs or any other aspect of an Alliance race — something that has always comprised a unique part of Alliance identity has been diminished by the Blood Elves being given to the Horde and that sense of identity is now over twenty years years old.

tl;dr: You're arguing the main reason why High Elves should be playable by the Alliance.

The Alliance has no claim to a sense of ownership over the High Elf theme or aesthetic. Blood Elves ARE High Elves and have been a core Horde race for twelve years.

That a few thalassian elves betrayed their people to remain with the Alliance is irrelevant, they are indistinguishable from their countrymen except on a point of political ideology. They are NOT a core race of the Alliance, whereas they are a core race of the Horde. The Horde has claim, the Alliance does not.

If High Elves ever comprised a part of the Alliance identity, they no longer do so because they left the Alliance. Will the United Kingdom still form a part of the identity of the European Union after Brexit because some expatriate Britons live in Spain?

[The Silver Covenant]

Well you're wrong and obviously aren't even a longtime fan of Warcraft. Anybody who played the RTS games knows what you have to say is offensively false.

[Obelisk Kai]

Well you're wrong and obviously aren't even a longtime fan of Warcraft. Anybody who played the RTS games knows what you have to say is offensively false.

If you find what I say offensive, take it up with the developers of the game and those who write the story. I didn't coin the 'Horde is waiting for you' or 'Blood Elves are pretty much High Elves' lines, gloriously apt as they are.

As for the RTS games I will admit I preferred the Command and Conquer series, at least until I played Warcraft 3 and it blew my mind at the time, yet an overwhelming attachment to the RTS seems to be blinkering your objectivity. Specifically, Warcraft 2 is several decades ago in game time. The storyline and themes were not frozen at that time and the Alliance is a far different faction today from what it was then. As is the Horde.

On the matter of the High Elves, their story is they renamed themselves, left the Alliance after being betrayed and joined the Horde. It is not the story of a few traitors hanging around Dalaran. Claiming the High Elves are a major part of the Alliance identity in the modern era is just head canon.

[Aldo Hawk]

Some stayed with the horde, some stayed with the alliance, some stayed with Kael'thas, some stayed neutral, is not hard.

[FlubberPuddy]

Not sure what today’s Horde Blood Elves have to do with today’s Alliance High Elves.

It’s that simple really. There’s elves on Alliance requesting to be made playable. They refer to themselves as High Elves. These Alliance members are what’s being requested.

I don’t see how the request has anything to do with Horde and their Blood Elves.

Also, the more that Blizzard decides to speak on about the Alliance High Elves and Alliance getting the “High Elf fantasy” I wonder how long Obelisk will keep regurgitating, “but Ion said this once!” even though it’s not the most recent word on the High Elf topic.

[RangerDaz]

It would be bad business to put the High Elves and Blood Elves AND Void Elves on Alliance. That would destroy what's left of the playerbase, guaranteed.

Sounds like most of you just have a hard-on for elves. I own more trolls and Orcs than any other race, and this crying over getting more elves makes you all sound like a bunch of pantywipes.

I'm glad the Void Elves said "hello". They're traitors, pure and simple; Lor'Themar follows the ideals of the Horde, and minus Sylvanas, he adores his faction. He won't be moving. We all know how racist the Alliance is.

The best part: Nightborne and Blood Elves are the best two elven species in the game. Alliance gets the goofy versions lol

In terms of lore and racial identity, Blood Elves, Void Elves, Silver Covenant, Sanlayn and Dark Rangers all come from the original Quel'thalas Elves (before Warcraft 3), but today all of them are very different from each other. Alliance already has Alleria's elves (Void Elves) part of their ranks and could also have the possibility to get the alliagence of Vereesa's elves (the Silver Covenant, aka the untouched High Elves). All these are completely different in terms of wow ingame lore than the current blood elves, so i don't get what you are saying.

Also both Void Elves and Silver Covenant are dissidents (or traitors if you wish) from the Silvermoon population.

PS: everyone has the right for their opinions, including your comment about the "goofy elves". I don't agree, i think they are all interesting.

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Stop right there, worgen and forsaken nelf would be the most silly thing they could ever did, heck I would take the fallout gnomes anf furries goblin any day before such thing.

If the alliance get high elves, then the horde should get ogres to pair with the wc2 theme, other combination will be terrible bad

I agree getting night elf worgen and forsaken would be silly, and that is why i wrote i wasn't hyped for them at all, everytime other players talk about them.

And i also agree that the horde should get Ogres are an allied race, but considering that we are waiting for Zandalari for ages now, my hype on Allied Races' releases has greatly diminished.