1. #8461
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    After all, they have told us why they don't want to add Alliance High Elves, they feels it compromises gameplay in maintaining two distinct factions in a faction based game. So if they ever change their minds, either they no longer feel it compromises gameplay embodied in the faction divide (doubtful) or they are overruled in the name of profit.
    Can someone ask Obelisk why he seems to ignore Alex Afrasiabi's recent comment on "High Elf fantasy" coming to Alliance?

    That literally meant that questions about "High Elves when?" will continue to get asked - because that comment cemented they're not off the table.

    Ion's comment was only about BFA and possibly next expac, hence his "near term" and the follow-up by Afrasiabi encouraging the request to continue.

    Regardless of where one stands, I am saying that Afrasiabi hit the green light on future questions about "High Elves when?" either at next Blizzcon or the one after that or get the picture?

    Basically he greenlit "keep asking us about it in the future and maybe". Continuing to re-iterate why they weren't added now, as Obelisk is doing, has no bearing on after BfA ends and "High Elves when?" being asked about later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Pro High Elfers feel Void Elves were a bad move, but Void Elves are the most popular Allied race. In other words, Void Elves worked as intended.
    Seem to be implying that High Elves would be less successful than Void Elves (who are an off-shoot of High Elves).

    If an off-shoot of a known highly requested addition is successful, what makes one think that the actual request would be less successful?

    One could make the argument they were testing the waters of the Thalassian model with the Void Elves and if proven successful it assures that High Elf variant would be successful, if not more, as well.

  2. #8462
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    Velen restored the Sunwell using the spark of the naaru M'uru thereby effectively curing the Blood Elves of their Fel/mana addiction and allowing them to start rebuilding their culture.
    I'm pretty sure "curing the blood elves" was nothing but a "happy side effect" from cleansing the Sunwell, as it was done to prevent it from being used by the Burning Legion again, tbh.

    Of course it could be that the Blood Elves themselves didn't see it as "help" since they have kept on slaughtering Draenei and fighting Velen at every opportunity instead of joining the Alliance as a way of thanking Velen for saving their race.
    I had a lot of respect for Lady Liadrin in WoD, during the Nagrand quest line, as she mentioned how helping the draenei there was her way of repaying the favor to Velen. Of course, all that respect went down the drain years later in the nightborne recruit scenario, but that's a topic for another discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    It should be noted that the quest Last Rites reveals Talbot to be under the control of Prince Valanar, so take anything he says (especially where it pertains to undermining the efficacy of Alliance deployments) with an entire salt lick.
    Actually, Talbot seems to be Prince Valanar. Regardless, I don't think that makes what he said any less valid, considering that the general stereotype of the common peasant and farmers are that they are very superstitious, plus the general agreed with the counselor's assessment.

    I mean, look at the promotion video for the Whomper pet: all humans run away from the little yeti. Only the pandaren finds it charming.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  3. #8463
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Yet it is not just decided from a business standpoint.
    Of course, and rightfully so. I think it's good that Blizzard isn't deciding the next (Allied) race based on popularity polls or $$ (WoW needs more gnomes )

    I was just responding to the argument that High Elves wouldn't make sense from a business view point by illustrating that they would actually make more sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    The decision for Blizzard to add playable High Elves to Alliance is like the decision for Square-E to re-make FF7. Both decisions are just money waiting to be printed for these companies. Yet it took Square almost 20 years to come out and say they're going to do it. And of course is taking a bit longer for players to get it into their hands.
    I'm not convinced money/profit really plays a part in this though, and even High Elves aren't profitable enough to save Blizzard from bankruptcy should it come to that ;-)
    "I guess only blood elves feel like the odd man out for the Horde. I hope that we've engineered that into it as deftly as we could, but you know, it's the equivalent of a bunch of white chicks hanging out with goblin or tauren. It's weird." -- Chris Metzen

  4. #8464
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Why? Blood elf lore, identity and culture would remain 100% unaltered and unaffected if high elves became a playable race for the Alliance. People love to tout that argument, but they never explain how it would affect the Horde race.
    Really? Because I have mentioned it several times. As have others like @protip.

    Blood Elves are High Elves. They are the version of the High Elf trope in Warcraft lore. By right of the fact they are playable (gameplay reason) and their possession of the lands of Quel'thalas, the Sunwell and the vast majority of the population (lore reaosns) they have the right to determine where the story of the High Elves goes. Because the story of the High Elves is not that they have stood by the Alliance since it's foundations, unwavering, until only a handful were left and that even their own people betrayed them. The story of the High Elves is that they left the Alliance after the Alliance failed them, renamed themselves Blood Elves and joined the Horde. Alliance High Elves would peddle the false fiction that they are true High Elves of the Warcraft universe and would turn the Blood Elves from the heirs of the High Elves into their opponents, a significant undermining of what a Blood Elf actually is.

    There is also the fact that every race in the game is not only defined by it's narrative but by it's aesthetics, culture and theme. These combine with the lore to form a unique experience. In every aspect, Alliance High Elves are identical to the Horde on those last three points. It is fundamentally unfair to expect Blood Elf players to share what every other race gets that is unique to themselves with Alliance players.

    It is also fundamentally unfair to the Horde to allow a duplicate of one of our races (and while this request of any Horde race would incur my opposition...our most popular race and therefore a major Horde selling point) to be accessed by Alliance players.

    And this leaves aside what Void Elf players think. I imagine there are quite a few Void Elf players who enjoy playing the dark, shadow-addled elf with a unique place in the Alliance who may not take kindly to having a duplicate of Horde Blood Elves butt in and steal their limelight.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    What is there to address? Yes, they could be "allied races" if Blizzard so wished to make it so. They "fit the bill", so to speak.
    And this is where your 'Blood Elves are High Elves logic' finally breaks down. No, they do not fit the bill. They do not fit the bill because they are not variants, they are identical. When asked about why Void Elves were created instead of Alliance High Elves being added, Ion stated specifically 'when we add Allied races, there's a desire to have things be a bit more distinct between the two factions'.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUik9-2ygS8 at about 47:15

    So those other groups I mentioned, identical to already playable races, not only do not fit the bill, but have been specifically ruled out. How can something fit the bill if they contravene an explicit criteria? They cannot and they do not. So even though not all High Elves are Blood Elves (just the vast majority), it doesn't matter because High Elves are playable as Blood Elves.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It matters because saying "blood elves are high elves" implies that all high elves are blood elves. Which is false. It also implies that what the pro-high elf community is asking for are for blood elves. Which they are not. It also forcefully infers the notion that, when a high-elf supporter mentions the name "high elf" they're talking about blood elves as well. Which they are not.
    The implication I take is the true one, it doesn't matter that not all High Elves are not Blood Elves. The option to play a High Elf in World of Warcraft is available. As for the lore based argument 'not all Blood Elves are High Elves'...the lore based response (demonstrated in the evidence presented previously) is that we are not far off that mark anyway. And because a Void Elf is not a Blood/High Elf, any Blood Elf who becomes a Void Elf is not bolstering High Elf numbers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I honestly doubt that the number of high elves around the world is smaller than the number of void elves.
    The moment it became apparent that Void Elves can turn other Elves into Void Elves, the population issue stopped applying to them as it can be said they went recruiting to explain an expansion in their numbers. Given how low Alliance High Elf numbers likely are, it would not have taken much of effort for the Void Elves to outnumber them.

    If we turn to in game representation, in BFA there are so far SIX Alliance High Elves who have been added, four of whom are nameless NPCs and two of which (those opening the Stormwind-Dalaran portal on the PTR) are likely aligned with the Kirin Tor rather than the Alliance explicitly. Considerably more Void Elf NPCs are in game in the BFA time period, with several named Void Elves and Void Elf Voidcaster NPCs being encountered out in the open world.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's not "apples and oranges". It's "apples and apples". You're taking the number of people signing a petition and assuming that number as the entirety of a community. Which is the exact same thing I did in my example.
    No, you used an example that did not make sense. Can you make a petition based on 'Do you still play WoW'? No you cannot, that's a question not a request. Alliance High Elves are a request. The petition I linked is not only the pro High Elven activity with the most individual (I will charitably assume nobody used multiple accounts to sign) actions but the easiest to perform. I saw that petition linked on both US and EU forums in the High Elf threads, linked here and linked on reddit. The classic server movement outnumbered the pro High Elf movement several hundred times over and managed to get Blizzard to move. That was with over a quarter of a million people.
    If only six or seven hundred odd people can bother themselves enough to click a button in support, and I would imagine that anyone who cared about playable Alliance High Elves enough would rouse themselves to do something as easy as click a button... then you appeal to a fantasy army for by saying there is more.I could just easily claim that everyone who didn't sign is vehemently opposed to High Elves and what evidence would you have to say I was wrong?





    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Does it? Does it, really? I honestly have never seen any void elf NPC talking about how the void "defines" them in any way.
    So are you going to argue now that Void Elves aren't defined by the Void? Or that they don't respect it, or aren't fascinated by it? Or that the void isn't at the very centre of their new culture when even the mounts they use or the heritage armor set they earn pulse with void energy?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Then get better ones. And make sure they're prescription glasses, too. Because the ones you have are clearly not working like they should.
    Yeah, remember this particular point of yours is pretty much a waste of everyone's time so before mocking my admittedly poor in real life vision, can you at least not contribute to my eye strain by making me read more of this nonsense?



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The only "desperation" here comes from you in your attempts to conflate two separate issues into one in an attempt to discredit me. Your attempt at argumentation against high elves come from the ideas that "blood elf = high elf = play Horde for high elf" and that high elf supporters just want to have the blood elf model and skins for the Alliance (despite the fact no pro-high elf argument I've seen even comes close to asking for that, and some even going as far as coming up with ideas to differentiate the two physically). The high elf community does not want the high elves for their models and animations, but for their lore. Blood elf lore is not high elf lore, because high elves did not follow Kael'Thas. High elf lore puts them at heavy odds with the Horde and the blood elves.
    Blood Elves are High Elves so yes, if you value the standard tolkien High Elf that much and want to play the warcraft version of it, well...(I need a pithy, memorable phrase to sum up the next bit...oh what could it be?)...then THE HORDE IS WAITING FOR YOU. And Blood Elf lore most definitely IS High Elf lore. Here is a small piece of supporting evidence...I recently did the Blood Elf heritage armor quest showing the fall of the High Elves. Their HIGH ELVEN heritage. And that's a tiny piece of recent in game content emphasising that.

    To the claim that all pro High Elven supporters want are the skins and model, ample evidence to support that too. The unofficial void elf threads on the official forums were full of players who would later show up in the pro High Elf threads asking for a 'compromise' on Void Elves with normal skin tones. If they had gotten those it still wouldn't have been an Alliance High Elf, it would have been a confused Void Elf, but the fact that the lore and culture and other things you mentioned wouldn't be there were moot so long as they would get that pretty elf in the Alliance. If you want it for those reasons, good for you, but you're the respectable fig leaf for those whose primary goal is aesthetical, who are aware of how that looks, and who are quite happy for people such as yourself to do the heavy lifting to provide a respectable patina to their very shallow desire. Finally, as to those people coming with ideas to differentiate the two physically, that's laughable. I'll tell you the same thing I told them..for it to work, a High Elf must be differentiated in such a way that a Blood Elf cannot replicate it. Tattoos, a Blood Elf can apply. Hairstyles, a Blood Elf can copy. Skin tones...for obvious reasons I am sure you'll agree that the idea that all the darker skinned toned Elves (of whom we have a reference to exactly one in an alternate timeline and we lack a comparison of dark skinned compared to what) were booted out of Silvermoon by the white skinned elves would simply not go over well. Every suggestion people came up with, including the OP who gave up eight months ago, are based on either adding features Blood Elves could easily replicate or a brand new model. And a brand new model is a joke of a suggestion, they didn't give Void Elves a brand new model and they could have justified one as their lore showed they underwent a transformative process...Alliance High Elves got kicked out of Silvermoon, hardly enough to induce a physical shift. One group did try and make Alliance Elves different from Blood Elves for the Alliance to use. That was Blizzard, they made Void Elves.

    All those people debating how to make a thalassian elf on the Alliance that is different from Blood Elves happily ignoring that it was already done because the end result happened to be a bit blue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    In short: blood elves are not high elves. And just to remind you: when a high elf supporter mentions the name "high elf", they are not talking about blood elves, instead they're talking about the elves who did not follow Kael'Thas.
    To which I refer you to my earlier response.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    They did. Your point of contention is the usage of models and animations, which Blizzard did just that: night elf for the Horde, blood elf for the Alliance.
    That is not my point of contention as the models were modified. Which is the entire point. The Horde did not get Night Elves. We got Nightborne. You did not get Blood/High Elves. You got Void Elves.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No, they shouldn't. Because lore and gameplay are never to be conflated. They're separate. Gameplay is not lore, and lore is not gameplay.
    That is such a wrong statement that it is hard to know where to begin, but close to the beginning feels appropriate. The faction divide itself was created for gameplay reasons, when Blizzard abandoned the soft faction system they had initially intended to use in favour of the Alliance and Horde as hard factions. This necessitated a redefining of the lore to accommodate this decision. Rather than a Scourge faction playable in game, a rebel faction of Forsaken were seeded in Warcraft 3 to justify adding a pre-planned Undead race, that now needed a home within the faction system, to the Horde.

    Gameplay and lore should never be conflated? They've been linked since day one (usually with gameplay trumping lore) and if that nuance has escaped you for the past decade and a half then I feel bad for you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Which is completely irrelevant if you, as a player, has to met certain rep requirements and go through scenarios to recruit a race for your character's faction, or not. Because that's a gameplay feature, not a lore feature. For example: the night elves had to work to help the Worgen before they could be recruited to the Alliance.
    You weren't playing the Night Elf doing it though now were you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Probably because it helps you dodge the question and repeat non-answers. When I ask why the One Ring can only be destroyed in the fires of Mount Doom, replying with "because the author says so" is not the correct answer to the question.
    Ironically in Lord of the Rings Online, this is where lore constrained gameplay as when they got to the moment when the One Ring was destroyed, players played a scenario not as their avatars but as Gollum.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaa4o9ex5uU

    Other way about but it puts further lie to your insistence gameplay and lore can be neatly separated. Not even your example does that. Second time you've managed that on this particular question I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    Of course, and rightfully so. I think it's good that Blizzard isn't deciding the next (Allied) race based on popularity polls or $$ (WoW needs more gnomes )

    I was just responding to the argument that High Elves wouldn't make sense from a business view point by illustrating that they would actually make more sense.
    I don't know if they make a business case. Void Elves are the most successful Allied race, that could be seen as a well that was well and truly tapped.


    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    I'm not convinced money/profit really plays a part in this though, and even High Elves aren't profitable enough to save Blizzard from bankruptcy should it come to that ;-)
    This is correct. Void Elves show what Blizzard wanted, have their cake and eat it. A thalassian variant that could make them some money but which didn't cross their gameplay lines in terms of faction diversity.

    Given that Void Elves are the most successful allied race, financial incentive to add Alliance High Elves is diminished as anyone who likes the thalassian elf is either playing a Blood Elf or happy with Void Elves. Blizzard probably does not care if anyone race changed to Void Elf until the day Alliance High Elves come out. The race change itself is a mission accomplished.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-01-14 at 05:03 PM.

  5. #8465
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Blood Elves are High Elves.
    But not all high elves are blood elves.

    By right of the fact they are playable (gameplay reason) and their possession of the lands of Quel'thalas, the Sunwell and the vast majority of the population (lore reaosns) they have the right to determine where the story of the High Elves goes.
    No, they don't. They only have the right to determine where blood elf story goes. The right to determine to all high elves was forfeit when Kael'Thas and his followers decided to changed their denomination.

    And this is where your 'Blood Elves are High Elves logic' finally breaks down. No, they do not fit the bill.
    Yes, they do. As for your As for Ion's words, I don't think they really mean much considering he (and Blizzard as a whole) "missed the mark" by few hundred miles considering they gave the Alliance blood elves, and not high elves.

    The implication I take is the true one
    No, it's not. It's one you take out of spite and out of a desire to muddle the discussion by adopting a meaning that is so blatantly contrarian to what is being talked about.

    The moment it became apparent that Void Elves can turn other Elves into Void Elves, the population issue stopped applying to them as it can be said they went recruiting to explain an expansion in their numbers.
    And that does not apply to High Elves... why, again? Why can't blood elves return to the high elves, either to be with their families, or because they do not wish to be part of the Horde and their ideals?

    No, you used an example that did not make sense. Can you make a petition based on 'Do you still play WoW'? No you cannot, that's a question not a request.
    You're missing the point so damn hard I'm having real trouble here not believing it's anything but intentional. You're assuming every single high elf supporter, no matter how casual or hardcore, reads every single pro-high elf blog/forum post and signs on every single petition, since you're taking the number of people in that petition and claiming as fact that the number of people that signed the petition are the actual number of high elf supporters.

    Yeah, remember this particular point of yours is pretty much a waste of everyone's time so before mocking my admittedly poor in real life vision, can you at least not contribute to my eye strain by making me read more of this nonsense?
    You're more than free to move on and not read my posts. Nobody's forcing you to read them, much less respond. But let me remind you that, when I mentioned that you'd know a player's faction by the color of their names/outlines/health bars before you could figure out if they're void elf or a blood elf, or a night elf or a nightborne, it was you who mentioned this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    At a great enough distance I can't tell a Gnome apart from a Draenei.
    Blood Elves are High Elves
    But not all high elves are blood elves.

    That is not my point of contention as the models were modified. Which is the entire point.
    SLIGHTLY altered. A keyword you "forgot" to mention. I repeat what I said earlier: unless you're standing right in front of them, you are very unlikely to find out if it's a night elf or a nightborne, or a blood elf or a void elf, before the color of their names/outlines/health bars give them away.

    That is such a wrong statement that it is hard to know where to begin,
    You don't know where to begin because it's not a wrong statement. "Gameplay" and "lore" do not mix. They may coincide at some points, but they do not mix.

    You weren't playing the Night Elf doing it though now were you?
    Which is completely irrelevant because the "player" not playing through it as a night elf is 100% gameplay and 0% lore.

    Ironically in Lord of the Rings Online, this is where lore constrained gameplay as when they got to the moment when the One Ring was destroyed, players played a scenario not as their avatars but as Gollum.
    I'm talking about the book. About the story. I am not talking about the game. I did mention "author" and not "developers".
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  6. #8466
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But not all high elves are blood elves.
    And as shown, that is irrelevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No, they don't. They only have the right to determine where blood elf story goes. The right to determine to all high elves was forfeit when Kael'Thas and his followers decided to changed their denomination.
    Blood Elves are High Elves, the High Elven story is the Blood Elf story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Yes, they do. As for your As for Ion's words, I don't think they really mean much considering he (and Blizzard as a whole) "missed the mark" by few hundred miles considering they gave the Alliance blood elves, and not high elves.
    Given that Blood Elves are High Elves, you still got a High Elf variant. And of course Ion's words don't mean much to you. If they did you'd not be embarking on this quixotic crusade to prove him wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No, it's not. It's one you take out of spite and out of a desire to muddle the discussion by adopting a meaning that is so blatantly contrarian to what is being talked about.
    That Blood Elves are High Elves? Hey I didn't coin the phrase, the Game Director did. On two separate occasions. Six months apart. Then again, as you said, his words shouldn't mean much. I mean he's only in charge of running the game, what does he know compared to you, a completely biased fan with an agenda.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And that does not apply to High Elves... why, again? Why can't blood elves return to the high elves, either to be with their families, or because they do not wish to be part of the Horde and their ideals?
    If you can find an example of a Blood Elf converting to being a High Elf feel free to share it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You're missing the point so damn hard I'm having real trouble here not believing it's anything but intentional. You're assuming every single high elf supporter, no matter how casual or hardcore, reads every single pro-high elf blog/forum post and signs on every single petition, since you're taking the number of people in that petition and claiming as fact that the number of people that signed the petition are the actual number of high elf supporters.
    I'm not the missing the point, I just think it's funny you think that the feelings of the few people who do care about the lore make up for those for whom this is a purely aesthetic pursuit. You are the minority of a minority. As for the petition, the number of people who signed are the actual number we have evidence for. There maybe others but if they don't care enough to sign the damn thing then they can't care that much at all and I can safely discount them. As for pro High Elf blogs, I imagine the pro High Elf discord has gone to the effort of seeking them out and networking. Anyone who cares enough to write a blog is likely already part of that community and therefore a known quantity.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You're more than free to move on and not read my posts. Nobody's forcing you to read them, much less respond. But let me remind you that, when I mentioned that you'd know a player's faction by the color of their names/outlines/health bars before you could figure out if they're void elf or a blood elf, or a night elf or a nightborne, it was you who mentioned this:
    You cited that in support of the claim that you can't tell a Void Elf apart from a Blood Elf and that as a result the faction wall was breached. That claim is a lie.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But not all high elves are blood elves.

    And as shown, that is irrelevant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    SLIGHTLY altered. A keyword you "forgot" to mention. I repeat what I said earlier: unless you're standing right in front of them, you are very unlikely to find out if it's a night elf or a nightborne, or a blood elf or a void elf, before the color of their names/outlines/health bars give them away.
    What does it matter the degree of alteration. The point is they were still altered. Alliance High Elves are identical which is why we were told they failed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You don't know where to begin because it's not a wrong statement. "Gameplay" and "lore" do not mix. They may coincide at some points, but they do not mix.
    Coincide, mix, influence, shape, it's all the same where one impacts the other and substituting one word for another which achieves a similar meaning accomplishes nothing except demonstrate you have access to a thesaurus. Lore and gameplay are inextricably linked, particularly in an MMO. Legion had these artifact weapons which had a tremendous effect on the lore of that expansion but actually disguised a gameplay grind to keep us playing. Another example!



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Which is completely irrelevant because the "player" not playing through it as a night elf is 100% gameplay and 0% lore.
    The gameplay and lore rationale behind an Allied race is that YOU seek them out via in game questing whereas among the Core races YOU, as one of these, are already beginning your journey to the Horde or as part of it. And the later is because that race is so intrinsic to the narrative of the respective factions, so crucial, that it makes no sense to lock them away from new players starting the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm talking about the book. About the story. I am not talking about the game. I did mention "author" and not "developers".
    Well I am talking about the game that adapted the book into an MMO in comparison with the game we play which is an MMO and in the moment you described, lore shaped gameplay as it tends to do.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-01-14 at 06:14 PM.

  7. #8467
    Mark my words, next expansion is gonna be Legion 2.0 in terms of fan service. High Elves will be 100% added. Remember this reply!!!

  8. #8468
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Yup, ends in March though. Currently working on unlocking Zandalari reps before college starts up again in a week. Won't have much time for WoW then
    Despite our differing opinions, all the best in your new year at college!

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    @Ielenia I think Obelisk is winning the debate between you and him. He at least is providing sources and valid evidences. You on the other hand seem to retort to "but not all high elfs are blood elfs"... a weak statement indicating you have no real support to stand on other than "but but muh Alliance high elfs".

    @Obelisk Kai In support of your comments, I'd like to point out the fact that the blood elf heritage armor questline is specifically focused around Arthas's attack on the high elven kingdom. I would like to think that this part of history is one of, if not the most, important event in high elven history. Isn't it interesting that this focal event of the high elven kingdom is designated to the blood elfs through the heritage armor questline. This to me is further evidence that Blizz strongly feel that the high elven trope in the warcraft universe is denoted to the blood elfs.... not the "Alliance high elfs". On this basis, the blood elfs ARE the high elfs of the warcraft universe and any high elfs associated with the alliance are but a small branch broken off from the main tree (so to speak). Additionally, this small branch is splintered into various groups each who have their own values and ideals and many of whom are more associated with the kirin tor rather than the Alliance.

    In conclusion, high elfs are already playable. They are on the Horde. A variant of high elfs is now available to the Alliance (aka void elfs). As such, adding playable "Alliance light skinned high elfs" just doesn't fit the bill. The light skinned high elfs are already on the Horde. Void tainted high elfs were given to the Alliance with clear distinctions so as to not blur faction lines, which this game is heavily focused on (one of the major aspects of WoW is two different and unique factions at war with each other. One difference of these factions is the different races within each faction...).
    Last edited by Strippling; 2019-01-14 at 09:45 PM.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  9. #8469
    Pandaren Monk AngerFork's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's not a quest text. It's a scripted conversation between three NPCs, Harbinger Vurenn, Counselor Talbot and General Arlos:

    Harbinger Vurenn says: Give the word, general. I will have two regiments at your disposal in a month's time.
    Counselor Talbot says: Our troops, general, consist mostly of villagers and peasants. Good men, but not quite rid of the prejudices and superstitions of their upbringing. They're not ready to fight alongside our more exotic allies.
    General Arlos says: Your offer will be carefully considered, harbinger. In the meantime we will make use of your delegation in an advisory role.
    Harbinger Vurenn says: Very well, general. Should you change your mind, my people will be more than willing to provide military assistance.
    Thank you, this is definitely a good bit of conversation to read. It strikes me as interesting that the Draenei offer military aid in addition to the role they are taken in, that of an advisory role. Putting aside the Talbot/Arlos story (which perhaps we shouldn't, given what happens to each), it's worth noting that this is also on a far smaller scale...an individual battle area rather than the main table of the Alliance. That's where I see it...individuals might well have been less than trusting of the Draenei, but the leadership of the Alliance welcomed Velen with open arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I don't see Alleria that way. I see her as being their leader. She is the one who saved them, and who is teaching them to quieten the whispers of the void, after all.
    This here I think is largely the crux of our disagreement. While we see differently here, I suspect we won't truly come to an accord on this topic and may have to agree to disagree. But still, I'm willing to be proven wrong if there is enough there.

    To show my thoughts here, from where I'm sitting, there is maybe one Allied Race leader who is also already largely ingratiated with their respective new faction before joining. Let's look at the list:

    Highmountain Tauren: Liaison - Baine, Leader - Mayla
    Nightborne: Liaison - Liadrin, Leader - Thalryssa
    Mag'har: Liaison - Eitrigg, Leader - Geyarah
    Void Elves: Liaison - Alleria, Leader - Umbric
    Lightforged: Liaison - Turalyon, Leader - Fareeya
    Dark Iron: Liaison - Moira, Leader - Moira

    Alleria herself is teaching them how to quiet the whispers and is really not far off from being their leader to be sure, but they from what I can tell seem to have more in common with Umbric than with Alleria. She seems to hate the void and finds it to be an issue (as shown in the Three Sisters comic), he welcomes it and seeks to learn more...much like many of the other NPCs in Telogrus. Umbric was there with the Void Elves when they were kicked out of Silvermoon and worked with them to unlock the secrets...Alleria came in afterwards and saved the day when the Void Elves bit off more than they could chew. She is a revered hero to them to be sure...but calling her the leader of the Void Elves would be akin IMO to calling Turalyon the leader of the Lightforged, which as mentioned above I believe to be Fareeya.

    In any case, thank you for the fun discussion this far. It's making me really think more about Allied Races and what Blizz may have intended with them.

  10. #8470
    Brewmaster Jekyll's Avatar
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    I think if Blizzard ever would implement High Elves as a playable race, they have to change its name so it wouldn't be too similar with DnD or Tolkien naming convention.

    So I suggest for playable High Elves renaming themselves as Rune Elf or Dire Elf or Wild Elf or Wildborne or Runeborne.
    Last edited by Jekyll; 2019-01-15 at 09:03 AM.

  11. #8471
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    In fact, a 3rd Dwarf variant was hinted at.
    First off, where was it hinted they'd be making wild hammers as an allied race?

    Second, Adding another dwarf to the faction that's always had dwarves and orcs/taurens to a faction that's always had orcs and tauren isn't the same as taking one's faction's race and giving the OPPOSITE faction not one, but TWO variables.
    "Honor, young heroes. No matter how dire the battle, never forsake it."
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  12. #8472
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    I think Obelisk is winning the debate between you and him. He at least is providing sources and valid evidences. You on the other hand seem to retort to "but not all high elfs are blood elfs"... a weak statement indicating you have no real support to stand on other than "but but muh Alliance high elfs".
    I'm not here to "win" anything. And I see that you, just like Obelisk Kai, refuse to acknowledge the fact that when those who want high elves playable mention "high elf", they are not talking about blood elves. At all. Hence why saying "blood elves are high elves" is such a meaningless "argument". Saying "high elves are already playable" is just wrong, all things considered, since, once again, pro-high elf players do not want to play blood elves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    And as shown, that is irrelevant.
    Your argument is, I know.

    Blood Elves are High Elves, the High Elven story is the Blood Elf story.
    Blood elves decide for blood elves. High elves decide for high elves.

    Given that Blood Elves are High Elves
    Bot not all high elves are blood elves. High elf supporters want high elves, not blood elves.

    Hey I didn't coin the phrase
    I never said you did. You just like to parrot it. With the sole intention to be obnoxious and disruptive, too, considering the bajillion times you have been told that when the name "high elf" is mentioned by a high elf supporter, they are not talking about blood elves.

    If you can find an example of a Blood Elf converting to being a High Elf feel free to share it.
    ... You want me to show an example... of a hypothesis? Really? If I had any examples, it wouldn't be a hypothesis, it'd be fact. Not to mention that you completely avoided answering the question I posted (not your first time, either). So I'll repeat the question: why couldn't a blood elf abandon the Horde and the blood elf ways to return to the high elves, possibly the Silver Covenant?

    I'm not the missing the point
    I'm sorry. You're right. "Missing" the point means you're doing it accidentally or unintentionally. You're actually ignoring the point, doing it purposely.

    You cited that in support of the claim that you can't tell a Void Elf apart from a Blood Elf and that as a result the faction wall was breached. That claim is a lie.
    It's not a lie. The argument that giving "high elves" to the Alliance would blur the faction lines an therefore it is bad is what really is a lie, when you consider the fact that there is next to zero differences between a void elf and a blood elf that you can perceive before you find out their faction allegiance through the color of their outline/name/health bar.

    What does it matter the degree of alteration.
    A lot. But considering you can't see the difference between a gnome and draenei, I'm not surprised this isn't a point of contention to you. If "breaching the faction wall" is such an issue, then the degree of alteration does matter. A lot.

    Coincide, mix, influence, shape, it's all the same
    Considering you have wrongful definitions for the word "neutral", since you seem to believe Germany post-WWII was "neutral" because it got split into East and West Germany, I'm not surprised you think "coincide" and "mix" are synonyms.

    And your example of the Legion weapons are laughable, to be honest. It only further proves you don't know how to differentiate "gameplay" from "lore". I imagine you think it's also "lore-accurate" that our characters can run on foot, without stopping, while carrying five huge bags filled with nothing but stacks upon stacks upon stacks upon stacks of solid gold bars... while wearing full plate armor, and two huge two-handed swords strapped to their backs... and go from the Light's Hope Chapel in Eastern Plaguelands... all the way to Booty Bay in Stranglethorn Vale... without being even slightly winded?

    The gameplay and lore rationale behind an Allied race is that YOU seek them out via in game questing
    Objectively wrong. It's not a lore rationale. It's a gameplay feature, not lore.

    Well I am talking about the game that adapted the book into an MMO in comparison with the game we play which is an MMO and in the moment you described, lore shaped gameplay as it tends to do.
    Which only further proves how you dodge and avoid questions you don't like and give non-answers.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AngerFork View Post
    Thank you, this is definitely a good bit of conversation to read. It strikes me as interesting that the Draenei offer military aid in addition to the role they are taken in, that of an advisory role. Putting aside the Talbot/Arlos story (which perhaps we shouldn't, given what happens to each), it's worth noting that this is also on a far smaller scale...an individual battle area rather than the main table of the Alliance. That's where I see it...individuals might well have been less than trusting of the Draenei, but the leadership of the Alliance welcomed Velen with open arms.
    I think that conversation, despite Talbot being actually Prince Valanar in disguise, is a 'micro-cosmos' of how the common human peasants and farmers viewed the draenei, anything unusual. Superstition and prejudices being rife among the "lower human casts" is not uncommon in fantasy.

    Evidence of this, too, is how the humans killed the Forsaken messengers that came to Stormwind, from way back before Sylvanas joined the Horde and was still seeking allies. She sent envoys to Stormwind to ask for help, but the guards killed the undead.

    This here I think is largely the crux of our disagreement. While we see differently here, I suspect we won't truly come to an accord on this topic and may have to agree to disagree. But still, I'm willing to be proven wrong if there is enough there.

    To show my thoughts here, from where I'm sitting, there is maybe one Allied Race leader who is also already largely ingratiated with their respective new faction before joining. Let's look at the list:

    Highmountain Tauren: Liaison - Baine, Leader - Mayla
    Nightborne: Liaison - Liadrin, Leader - Thalryssa
    Mag'har: Liaison - Eitrigg, Leader - Geyarah
    Void Elves: Liaison - Alleria, Leader - Umbric
    Lightforged: Liaison - Turalyon, Leader - Fareeya
    Dark Iron: Liaison - Moira, Leader - Moira
    I understand the sentiment, but here's my take: Baine, Liadrin and Eitrigg have no connection to the races they're recruiting other than what could be described as "brother-in-arms" relationships. Turalyon is not a draenei, despite being lightforged, and since he is human I suppose it makes sense for him to be the liaison. Now, in my mind, the reason why Alleria is more like Moira than like the others is because Alleria is intrinsically connected to the void elves by being their savior, and their mentor in controlling the void influence.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  13. #8473
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm not here to "win" anything. And I see that you, just like Obelisk Kai, refuse to acknowledge the fact that when those who want high elves playable mention "high elf", they are not talking about blood elves. At all. Hence why saying "blood elves are high elves" is such a meaningless "argument". Saying "high elves are already playable" is just wrong, all things considered, since, once again, pro-high elf players do not want to play blood elves.
    High elfs already being playable is not wrong, it's an actual fact that they are playable. It's pure headcanon if you believe otherwise. Blood elfs are high elfs, and not only are they high elfs but they are THE warcraft trope of high elfs. The majority of high elven history, society and culture progressed via the blood elfs. As such, they are the MAIN high elven group in warcraft. So, sorry kid but high elfs are playable... on the Horde. There is a very minor group of high elfs who chose to remain allied to the kirin tor or the Alliance, but this group is just a small off-shoot of the main high elven society.... who I repeat again are currently playable.

    Let me ask you a question.... are blood elfs high elfs? (and yes not all high elfs are blood elfs, but please answer the question)
    Secondly, do you agree that blood elfs are the main high elven group in warcraft?
    Thirdly, do you think blood elfs and "Alliance high elfs" are the same race?
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  14. #8474
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    I'm not convinced money/profit really plays a part in this though, and even High Elves aren't profitable enough to save Blizzard from bankruptcy should it come to that ;-)
    I don't believe it does either, was just merely making a comparison that it's an obvious observation High Elves are a popular request which would be a more positive addition than negative if and whenever Blizzard decides to pull that trigger.

    The few people bitching about it right now won't matter because there's already some unsubbing for other reasons not related to High Elves. Therefore Blizzard gains nothing by keeping them out indefinitely till the game ends and only has to gain from their position.

    The only thing that would have a real effect would be that if High Elf addition was so horrible it caused a massive amount of Blood Elf players to unsub due to the High Elf addition. We've seen no sentiment of such, therefore complaints (as with all complaints) will subside eventually aka people will get over it once it's added.

    They just exaggerate the "destruction of faction integrity" it would cause only because they know at this moment there's a chance to "nip it in the bud" so to speak.

    For instance it's kinda like how Obelisk Kai (and possibly others) used to say that two elves were more than enough in the game when threads started about nightborne being playable (before we knew of Allied Races outright). He'd make arguments stating two elves were more than enough, until Blizzard added two more elves.

    Then shifted the argument to four being enough. This proves my point about the bitching subsiding after the fact. No one bitches about the 2 extra elves added in the same manner back before they were added.

    Now it's shifted to, "ok 4 is definitely enough, but no more!" when it used to be "2 is more than enough, no more!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Despite our differing opinions, all the best in your new year at college!
    Thank you! I wish you a good new year

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuggsy View Post
    First off, where was it hinted they'd be making wild hammers as an allied race?

    Second, Adding another dwarf to the faction that's always had dwarves and orcs/taurens to a faction that's always had orcs and tauren isn't the same as taking one's faction's race and giving the OPPOSITE faction not one, but TWO variables.
    Discussed a few pages back, and LATAM interview on Wowhead.

    Also someone put it very well on the WoW official forums in regards to Blood Elves going Horde over Alliance: "Once a race becomes playable on the Horde, it becomes a Horde race"

    So we can use this same line of logic for Void Elves: "Once a race becomes playable on the Alliance, it becomes an Alliance race". Void Elves become playable on the Alliance, making high elves an Alliance race now. Same as how a sect of night elves are now Horde as well.

    As said before, that argument is dead. Blizzard is clear to adding whichever other high elf variants to either faction now since both exist in a playable manner to each faction.

  15. #8475
    I like the heritage armor questline argument. It was in fact the most defining moment for High Elven history and yet it's a blood elf quest line. Why? Well because high elf and blood elf are one and the same.

    I honestly dont see much of a cultural difference between the two except maybe a prefrence of red or blue.

    Silvermoon as a nation has been roughly the same before and after arthas' attack. How can you then claim that the elves who decided to remain loyal to the alliance are a different race.

    Now it's a matter of alliegnces and the only way that could reflect for players would be through neutrality not an AR.

    I honestly have no issue with that as long as its handled correctly. I personally think pandaren are just fine.

    Demon Hunters starting experience would need a revamp to include more races and the horde would need an additional race to compesate. Ogres perhaps.

    Give horde a pandaren varient as an AR and the alliance a different Horde swap AR. Then as Thanos would say, perfectly balanced as all things should be.
    Last edited by Varx; 2019-01-15 at 01:52 PM.

  16. #8476
    Activision is about profit. High elves would generate massive profit. High elves will be in game, there is litteraly nothing to argue about this. The only question is when nothing else matter. It will take some time, probably to raise up a quarter but it will come, 1 year, 2 year max sooner if Blizzard keep doing shit for WoW.

  17. #8477
    Has anyone else stopped posting because any real discussion was made a few hundred pages back and you just come back to see @Obelisk Kai explain perfectly logical arguments and see which monkey's throw poop, or is that just me?

  18. #8478
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm not here to "win" anything. And I see that you, just like Obelisk Kai, refuse to acknowledge the fact that when those who want high elves playable mention "high elf", they are not talking about blood elves. At all. Hence why saying "blood elves are high elves" is such a meaningless "argument". Saying "high elves are already playable" is just wrong, all things considered, since, once again, pro-high elf players do not want to play blood elves.
    Firstly, saying High Elves are already playable is not 'just wrong'.

    Blood Elves have been referred to as High Elves on several occasions. Two of those occasions were posted following Blizzcon 2017 with it's reveal of the Allied race system (which is important as the rumoured sub-race system was the one many pro High Elfers were counting on to deliver playable High Elves) and on both occasions it was in the context of Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

    Saying High Elves are already playable is therefore factually correct from a gameplay perspective.

    From a lore perspective, every Blood Elf alive today save the very youngest at one point called themselves High Elves. Was the reason for their renaming as Blood Elves a psychological change, perhaps a hunger for blood? No. Was it a physical change in they changed into Elves consisting of blood? No. The name change was simply in recognition that a glorious phase of their history had ended and that they mourn it and those they lost.

    No physical changes affected the Blood Elves, which is different from what happened to the Void Elves who were bombarded by void energy. They simply changed the adjective of their name, they did not reject who they are in doing so. Had Blizzard decided not to follow rule of cool and just left them calling themselves High Elves, which they very easily could have, you'd have even less of a leg to stand on.

    Blood Elves are indisputably High Elves. Specifically, Blizzard's warcraft twist on the High Elf trope. Blood Elves are High Elves and High Elves are already playable.

    Secondly, just because the pro High Elf community defines High Elves exclusively as the tiny number of Alliance High Elves in lore does not mean I have to agree. You have put forward your definition, it is incorrect and demonstrably so. Because a Blood Elf is a High Elf, when you say you want to play a High Elf what you are really saying is you want to play a High Elf, an already available race, on the Alliance side. Attempting to pretend Blood Elves and High Elves are absolutely different things really reveals your true problem, the race you want is on, to you, the wrong faction.

    Which of course is unfortunate for you, but in a two faction based game if you start by picking your faction you immediately halve your race choices. High Elves are playable, the option is there and if you have been unable to play a High Elf then that is because you have refused to, rather than Blizzard denying you.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Your argument is, I know.
    Ahem. For someone quick to criticize others for their perceived 'childish answers' I really should take you to task for such hypocrisy...but I believe you will be immune to it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Blood elves decide for blood elves. High elves decide for high elves.
    And Blood Elves are High Elves and while not all High Elves are Blood Elves, those who aren't are too few in number to have the right to influence the narrative of their race.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Bot not all high elves are blood elves. High elf supporters want high elves, not blood elves.
    Alliance High Elf supporters want to play an already available race on their own faction despite this being a faction based game...a faction based game where Blizzard bent over backwards to give that faction a variant. It's responses like this which show you don't believe Void Elves were a compromise, because no compromise is possible. It's victory or nothing. Void Elves are of course, not nothing. Tens of thousands of people leveled one to 120. If only a few hundred out of the entire population of WoW are seriously unhappy Blizzard wouldn't break the game's foundational faction wall for them by making an Alliance loyal duplicate of an existing Horde race available to the Alliance, that is something I believe Blizzard will bear.

    Even if your 'outrage' at being slapped in the face with Void Elves did reach Blizzard, they'll either give Void Elves some vaguely normal tones first OR, more likely, weaken faction restrictions so that Horde and Alliance members can group in PVE content. They have things they can try that don't involve a High Elf portrait sitting on the blue banner on the character creator.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I never said you did. You just like to parrot it. With the sole intention to be obnoxious and disruptive, too, considering the bajillion times you have been told that when the name "high elf" is mentioned by a high elf supporter, they are not talking about blood elves.
    Obnoxious and disruptive? Don't make me laugh harder than normal. If you want an echo chamber where you can discuss how wonderful Alliance High Elves are, how they are inevitable, how the devs are morons, how you have a superior grasp of the lore than anyone else and how you can attack anyone who disagrees with you then you should retreat to the High Elf discord.

    In fact if you want an example of obnoxious and disruptive I direct you to the comments section on the latest video from content creator Gongrongzong about Allied races, courtesy of that same High Elf discord.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubcst25c_x0

    During the course of the video he briefly examined High Elves and said they probably weren't happening after the Q and A and that anyone who wanted to play a High Elf could play Horde. And this guy isn't even an Anti High Elfer, he is supportive of High Elves to the point he made a separate video supporting their inclusion last year. He just isn't so consumed by this topic that he insists black is white, up is down and north is south and so when the lead developer made the comment that Blood Elves are High Elves HE accepted it.

    End result is his comments section is filled with salty pro High Elfers outraged someone dared publicly question their internal consensus that Ion is an idiot and High Elves are definitely coming. On a hunch I checked the High Elf discord and sure enough WoWJedi aka Runicknight aka Lionknight , who you see bitching in the comments section, posted about it.

    Gongrongzong even had to post a pinned message explaining the High Elf thing was just a joke and that all he wanted to do was make a fun video.

    So nope, I am not particularly minded to accede to the narrow definition of a High Elf the pro High Elven crowd prefers. Not only is it demonstrably incorrect, but it's rewarding the behavior of a mob to do so.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    ... You want me to show an example... of a hypothesis? Really? If I had any examples, it wouldn't be a hypothesis, it'd be fact. Not to mention that you completely avoided answering the question I posted (not your first time, either). So I'll repeat the question: why couldn't a blood elf abandon the Horde and the blood elf ways to return to the high elves, possibly the Silver Covenant?
    It isn't a hypothesis, it could conceivably happen. What I am asking for now is you to demonstrate that someone in game has actually done it. You know, the next step.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's not a lie. The argument that giving "high elves" to the Alliance would blur the faction lines an therefore it is bad is what really is a lie, when you consider the fact that there is next to zero differences between a void elf and a blood elf that you can perceive before you find out their faction allegiance through the color of their outline/name/health bar.
    It is a lie. As Void Elves are not Blood/High Elves and Night Elves are not Nightborne, stating they are identical and that the faction wall has been accordingly breached is a lie.

    Black is not white. Up is not down. And a Void Elf is not a Blood/High Elf. It takes a particular kind of mind to indulge the doublethink that Void Elves are Blood Elves but that Blood Elves and High Elves are different, the complete inverse of what was clearly intended and which everyone else accepts.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    A lot. But considering you can't see the difference between a gnome and draenei, I'm not surprised this isn't a point of contention to you. If "breaching the faction wall" is such an issue, then the degree of alteration does matter. A lot.
    You are fixated on the Gnome-Draenei thing aren't you? For those who maybe reading this, Ielenia believes that because at a moderate distance a Void Elf would be indistinguishable from a Blood Elf if both were dressed in armor, that the faction lines are thus breached. Of course, under the principle of reductio ad absurdum, I brought up that the same could be said of Draenei and Gnomes, that at a great enough distance you can't tell them apart and would only see dots in the far distance. I feel this particular example he has cottoned on to is utterly ridiculous but he feels like he has to press it.

    Returning to Ielenia, breaching the faction wall is a major issue and as I have stated I am not a fan of the models being shared among the faction. However, if YOU believed that all that mattered was the model then of course Void Elves would be the High Elf you always dreamed of and you could suit yourself up in armour to disguise the imperfections. But your continual complaining shows that it isn't. Other things matter such as lore, aesthetics, culture and theme. Without those you just can't lie to yourself and pretend your Void Elf is an Alliance High Elf...which of course they can't be. That's the point. They are Void Elves, even if they used to be Silver Covenant High Elves they still changed when they embraced the void.

    So believe me when I say it is precisely because a Void Elf has no claim to the aesthetics, culture and theme of the Blood/High Elves that I tolerate them as a compromise. They matter to you after all, just as they matter to me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Considering you have wrongful definitions for the word "neutral", since you seem to believe Germany post-WWII was "neutral" because it got split into East and West Germany, I'm not surprised you think "coincide" and "mix" are synonyms.

    In the context of what we are discussing, a link between lore and gameplay, the terms are similar and can be applied in certain contexts...as you did. I also did not call them synonyms for a reason, because they are not. Attacking me on my grasp of the english language (unrelated to the topic at hand) is an ad hominem attack...attacking me for something I didn't say you invented, that's a combined strawman and lie. You're on a roll here.

    As for the neutral thing, Garfurion provided a word of God response on what Blizzard saw neutral as in terms of the playable races. Despite that, Pandaren have been consistently described as a neutral race in most other contexts. Your counter-example of Germany is, unfortunately, poorly thought through but given most of your points so far we can just chalk that up as one more for the list. In Warcraft, the vast majority of Pandaren who live on the island or on the mainland of Pandaria are in fact neutral and are unaligned. Small numbers of Pandaren are tempted by either the Tushui or Huojin schools of their philosophy to declare for either the Alliance or Horde, but they are tiny minorities (albeit minorities who have the ability to go back home and recruit fresh faces, something Alliance High Elves cannot do). For your Germany example to have worked, Germany would have had to have been completely united and neutral but with their citizens free to go and work for the US or Soviet led blocs as they saw fit. Suffice to say, that isn't what happened at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And your example of the Legion weapons are laughable, to be honest. It only further proves you don't know how to differentiate "gameplay" from "lore". I imagine you think it's also "lore-accurate" that our characters can run on foot, without stopping, while carrying five huge bags filled with nothing but stacks upon stacks upon stacks upon stacks of solid gold bars... while wearing full plate armor, and two huge two-handed swords strapped to their backs... and go from the Light's Hope Chapel in Eastern Plaguelands... all the way to Booty Bay in Stranglethorn Vale... without being even slightly winded?
    The game world and the world as it would be canonically imagined are different, in that the world represented in game is vastly smaller than it really is. Yet nowhere did I say they were absolutes, that is what you are doing. I am pointing out that to a large degree, gameplay and lore are linked rather than your insistence they can be divided on every occasion. I used the example of how the introduction of the faction system radically reshaped the plot of WoW from what was intended. I used the example of how Legion weapons were a lore based method to drive a large chunk of the Legion plot, but that they also disguised the kind of grind Blizzard likes to use in an attempt to keep people engaged. Rather than saying why they weren't an example of why gameplay and lore are linked, you mentioned an example where gameplay needs outweighed lore representation. Of course, I did mention that gameplay trumps lore when the two conflict so I guess I had your example covered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Objectively wrong. It's not a lore rationale. It's a gameplay feature, not lore.
    Wait, I said 'The gameplay and lore rationale behind an Allied race is that YOU seek them out via in game questing'

    You play your avatar, not a member of the target allied race, because you are recruiting them. And you seek them out through in game questing, which is the lore based story of how you obtain access to them.

    And you say that is 'Objectively wrong'.

    You proved to me you had a thesaurus but I think you need to pick up a dictionary to go with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Which only further proves how you dodge and avoid questions you don't like and give non-answers.
    It's hard to talk about how gameplay and lore are linked in the novel as a point of comparison because, and bear with me on this, you can't play a book as you do a game. The people behind LOTRO are adapting that book into an MMO and by adapting the non-example you used (because a game and a book really aren't comparable) shows that gameplay and lore are linked because they had to make a gameplay compromise, your long played Avatar couldn't be involved in that moment, with the lore. And the lore solution was to have you play Gollum.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-01-15 at 04:16 PM.

  19. #8479
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post

    Also someone put it very well on the WoW official forums in regards to Blood Elves going Horde over Alliance: "Once a race becomes playable on the Horde, it becomes a Horde race"

    So we can use this same line of logic for Void Elves: "Once a race becomes playable on the Alliance, it becomes an Alliance race". Void Elves become playable on the Alliance, making high elves an Alliance race now. Same as how a sect of night elves are now Horde as well.

    As said before, that argument is dead. Blizzard is clear to adding whichever other high elf variants to either faction now since both exist in a playable manner to each faction.
    Right. Blizzard gave the Alliance a version of high elves... it's not the one people wanted which sucks, but it's what they got. I don't see them giving Void Elves a 'regular' skin option just like they didn't give orcs a 'brown skin' option. Nor do I see them giving the Alliance TWO versions of a race that has belonged to Horde since the second expansion. Honestly I'm personally sick of elves.. we've got 4 different versions of them right now. I understand part of the whole 'Allied Race' thing is to make specific sub races of existing races playable but lets go ahead and give some other races some love.

    A fifth faction of elves right now would be excessive when they could be doing things like Wildhammers, Taunka, Mecha Gnomes, Mecha Goblins, Forest Trolls, Earthen, etc. All those other races aside, the Alliance would just become 'Blood Elf faction #2' with nothing but blue-eyed blood elves running about.

    I get that the High Elf people feel like they got screwed over, and I even agree that they did, but I just don't see it happening. And if it did, not for another expansion or two.
    "Honor, young heroes. No matter how dire the battle, never forsake it."
    Varok Saurfang

  20. #8480
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    You think you don't, but you do.

    btw saying that HE are playable because you can play as a BE who is by definition a HE is factually wrong, yes, completelly factually wrong.

    You can play as a BE on the horde, with the context, theme and fantasy it brings, but you can't play as a HE on the alliance, with the context, theme and fantasy it brings.

    Trying to push BE as the HE option to play with is dishonest and delusional, sorry, that's the truth and it is truly factual and not any biased BS.
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2019-01-15 at 04:34 PM.

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