Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Varx]

It seems like you are swiping thing just to fit your argumentation huh?

Hey, nobody, and read well, nobody and i mean NO-BO-DY said they are different species, everyone knows they are the same species.

What you find hard to understand is that you can't play an alliance HE, you can't log your account and make that character but then you find in the game a variety of HE that happen to side with the alliance and work with them, and not only work with them, kill for them, and not just kill horde members, they kill BE members of the horde.

But then you find well the idea to make the Thalassians a neutral race, when that goes against all existent lore about them, and why did you think that making HE would be a waste? maybe is the stupid idea of AR slots?

AR slots are not finite and it was stated that it -doesn't have to come in pairs-, they said it mere weeks after releasing the first 4 AR, so calm down, 'slots' and 'pairs' aren't going to be 'wasted' everytime they add an AR.

But hey, keep pointing others while stating that they need somekind of mental therapy, it makes you feel very serious.

Jesus christ dude...

You cant be an alliance HE because that would cause Thalasian elves as a race to be mechanically neutral in the same way as pandas. Same race/ different allys.

I dont get why the concept of a starting experiences in which you choose youre alliengce is worse than a simple lazy AR. Its literally the samething but in a more immersive and wholesome way.

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You are wrong and the one spreading misinformation. Kul Tiran and Stormwind Humans are biologically the same race. Even Worgen are biologically the same race (individuals are cursed, but that is a personal affliction, not a biologically hereditary trait).

The playable ones are not the same. Blizz stated they are bigger and more robust due to their environment and living conditions.

If you know anything about Darwin and evolution you'd know this is a definitely possible.

[Aldo Hawk]

@Varx Neutral Thalassian breaks the lore and all the meaning that both groups have, making an alliance HE allied race doesn't and provides what the situation needs.

Alliance HE as an allied race would not cause Thalassians to be a neutral race, at all, because the thing with neutral races is that they come from the same place and then pick a side, they are already in a side, horde or alliance, with the differences that not only the factions brings, but the differences that both of them already had as separated groups that modified the way they live their lives and how they interact with the world.

HE have to be an AR once and for all.

[FlubberPuddy]

I guess so. Still I highly doubt it. Dwarves already got an AR. You still have 5 core races without one.

Also i dont think being taller by a few inches and skinnier is not enough for AR standards since the tattoos can just be a quest reward similar to the nelf black eyes.

You keep acting like when people make suggestions/requests for a race that they want it immediately. Step off that pedestal, no one's said "they need to come immediately! Fuck all the other races that haven't had their 2.0s yet!!" as far as I've been involved so I don't know why you keep bringing that up as if it's being said.

Also Night Elves with black eyes are still the exact same Night Elves form Darnassus. Wildhammer Dwarves don't live in Ironforge - they're out in Aerie Peaks or whatever. Same for when High Elves are brought up, they're not living in Silvermoon they stay in Alliance kingdoms/lands/cities.

As someone else said, SW Humans, KT Humans, and Worgen are all of the Human race. If you don't believe me you can read up on Worgen still being Humans as Developers have said if the Gilnean Worgens had a baby it'd come out as a regular Human because the Worgen Curse is just that - a curse.

So we're about to have 3 types of Humans on one faction side.

You wouldn't happen to have a quote where Blizzard has said they want to add Wildhammers would you? This is the first I have heard about it and you have repeated it in almost every post today.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9599297?page=1

Before you jump on "but he's talking about character customization" let me repeat that if you look at the question prior where he speaks about Allied Races he considers Golden eyes on Blood Elves and Night Elf dark eyes as part of Allied Race customization.

"Do you have any plans for Allied Races after the Kul Tirans and Zandalari Trolls?

JF: I feel like Allied Races are an awesome addition to the game. You have seen us taking this system in a bunch of directions now, we kinda pieced it apart, we've added Allied races and then we said "hey, wait a minute, I like being a Dwarf!", so we added a Dwarf heritage armor set. We added that, then we thought about Blood Elves wanting golden eyes or Night Elves, what do they get? So they got different customization options. So we really like the different levels of player customizations that came out of this and we're definitely not done yet, but we don't have anything to announce today."

Jeremy's showing that the Allied Race system isn't just about adding stand-alone races. They have different levels of customization of what they consider came out of this Allied Race system.

[Varx]

@Varx Neutral Thalassian breaks the lore and all the meaning that both groups have, making an alliance HE allied race doesn't and provides what the situation needs.

Alliance HE as an allied race would not cause Thalassians to be a neutral race, at all, because the thing with neutral races is that they come from the same place and then pick a side, they are already in a side, horde or alliance, with the differences that not only the factions brings, but the differences that both of them already had as separated groups that modified the way they live their lives and how they interact with the world.

HE have to be an AR once and for all.

Use you're imagination. The High Elves and the silver covenant are beseiging silvermoon while the blood elves and lorthemar are defending.

New thalasian elves start in the middle of all this and ultimately choose a side.

Im not saying to dissolved all the current thalasian factions. Im talking about fresh elves who decide which banner to follow.

This way you can get better AR for someone who hasn't had one and update eversong/ghostlands to allow flying and integrate it into the rest of EK.

[Neverafter]

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9599297?page=1

Before you jump on "but he's talking about character customization" let me repeat that if you look at the question prior where he speaks about Allied Races he considers Golden eyes on Blood Elves and Night Elf dark eyes as part of Allied Race customization.

"Do you have any plans for Allied Races after the Kul Tirans and Zandalari Trolls?

JF: I feel like Allied Races are an awesome addition to the game. You have seen us taking this system in a bunch of directions now, we kinda pieced it apart, we've added Allied races and then we said "hey, wait a minute, I like being a Dwarf!", so we added a Dwarf heritage armor set. We added that, then we thought about Blood Elves wanting golden eyes or Night Elves, what do they get? So they got different customization options. So we really like the different levels of player customizations that came out of this and we're definitely not done yet, but we don't have anything to announce today."

Jeremy's showing that the Allied Race system isn't just about adding stand-alone races. They have different levels of customization of what they consider came out of this Allied Race system.

Until Blizzard says they are going to implement Wildhammer Dwarves, whether it be as a customization option for existing Dwarves or a full Allied Race, it is speculation. The fact that they have been discussed isn't surprising at all. At this point, I would imagine any race that can be identified has been put on a whiteboard or two around Blizzard.

The way you were talking was more of a concrete claim was all.

Not trying to derail the topic at hand. Commence High Elf Monkey Poo throwing once more.

[Varx]

Look guys honestly we can just keep going back and forth about helves, wh dwarves, and every possible AR under the sun, but I still stand by this.

And dont say because of popular demand cuz if that was a factor velves wouldn't exist.

If blizzard was planning on making multiple ARs for one core race then the Mag'har would not have included every orc clan.

They could have easily been brown exclusive, but they're not.

If we cant have a dedicated Dragonmaw or blackrock AR, why should helves get ones who have next to no physical differences from it's core race.

[BTHSE]

Alliance HE lives and do thing in the alliance, the end. Is it hard to understand? of course not, you just don't like the idea and try to come up with questionable arguments.

Let's be clear about something here. I'm not taking umbrage to the fact you want to play svelte pointy eared human lover on the Alliance. What I take umbrage to is your claim that they hold the context, theme and fantasy of the High Elves. They don't. They never did. That honor goes to the Blood Elves. Because Blood Elves are high elves.

You can keep asking for the ability to play as an outlier from an existing race all you want but the fact remains : that's not the High Elf fantasy. Not any more than playing a Defias is the Human fantasy. Not anymore than playing a venture co. Orc is the Orc fantasy. Not anymore than playing an Argent Crusade Dwarf is the Dwarf fantasy. And so on and so on.

You want the High Elf fantasy? The Horde's there for you.

[Aldo Hawk]

Let's be clear about something here. I'm not taking umbrage to the fact you want to play svelte pointy eared human lover on the Alliance. What I take umbrage to is your claim that they hold the context, theme and fantasy of the High Elves. They don't. They never did. That honor goes to the Blood Elves. Because Blood Elves are high elves.

You can keep asking for the ability to play as an outlier from an existing race all you want but the fact remains : that's not the High Elf fantasy. Not any more than playing a Defias is the Human fantasy. Not anymore than playing a venture co. Orc is the Orc fantasy. Not anymore than playing an Argent Crusade Dwarf is the Dwarf fantasy. And so on and so on.

You want the High Elf fantasy? The Horde's there for you.

They are on the alliance, you can't play one on the alliance, playing in the horde defeats the fantasy in the first place not only because they are on the horde but because they are not the same ones that are in the alliance.

Don't worry, i know perfectly what i'm talking about, and you know what you are talking about too, the difference is that you don't want to comprehend the meaning of the request.

[FlubberPuddy]

If blizzard was planning on making multiple ARs for one core race then the Mag'har would not have included every orc clan.

They could have easily been brown exclusive, but they're not.

If we cant have a dedicated Dragonmaw or blackrock AR, why should helves get ones who have next to no physical differences from it's core race.

You understand that Mag'har not being exclusively brown was due to them considering Mag'har in armor to look just like an Orc in armor??? Something that applies to Void Elves too. In effect this would help the whole "High Elf customization goes to Void Elves" group that's been brought up and talked about, since a Blackrock Orc is a skin option on Mag'har (exactly 1), which leads more credence to Afrasiabi's yeah High Elf customization can come to Void Elves.

Would it be sufficient? Not saying that, but it'd at least be something and fall in line with their development decisions like I listed above and below.

It's another fallacy to say "there's no physical differences right now" as if Blizzard would just add in current High Elves without additional customization options. Races like Dark Iron Dwarves and Nightborne got extra customization options added to them when they became playable races. Dark Irons with ember flicked beards/hair as well as tattoos, and Nightborne with their black/blonde hair colors.

High Elves if added wouldn't be exempt from this.

[Aldo Hawk]

Use you're imagination. The High Elves and the silver covenant are beseiging silvermoon while the blood elves and lorthemar are defending.

New thalasian elves start in the middle of all this and ultimately choose a side.

Im not saying to dissolved all the current thalasian factions. Im talking about fresh elves who decide which banner to follow.

This way you can get better AR for someone who hasn't had one and update eversong/ghostlands to allow flying and integrate it into the rest of EK.

I know what you are referring to, placing the initial zone in the past or something, but that doesn't change that they currently exists and just adding the AR not only wouldn't screw the BE but add features different from what BE has such as cosmetics for the AR, racials, voicelines, different class selection and even events in the world just for being an alliance HE.

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Nightborne with their black/blonde hair colors.

Hah, did someone saw a Nightborne with light-blonde or black hair during legion? i didn't.

But then the AR appeared and gave some new options to play with.

[Garfurion]

Because High Elves have always been characterized as arrogant pricks who have always ditched human the first chance they got.

Interesting claim. Maybe you can give some examples to show High Elves always ditching humans at the first opportunity they get ?

Because my recollection of High Elf lore and characterization, based on the most prominent High Elven lore figures, is somewhat different.


Alleria Windrunner: got a half-elf son with a human who she still loves, even after hopping around the cosmos for a 1000 years. She also joined a human and dwarf army through the dark portal to another planet. To be honest that doesn't sound like ditching humans the first chance she got.

Vereesa Windrunner: got half-elf twins with a human husband (Rhonin) and sided with a human (Jaina) to kick Blood Elves out of Dalaran, a human city. She leads the Silver Covenant, a high elven organization, who joined the Alliance in northrend and has been (and probably still is) fighting by their side.

Sylvanas Windrunner: Allowed a human to join the High Elven Farstriders (Nathanos). Even though she is undead and no longer a High Elf she clearly still has feelings for him.

Kael'thas Sunstrider: was in love with Jaina (a human) and decided to team up with humans to fight the scourge in Lordaeron after the scourge had destroyed his homeland.

Anastarion Sunstrider: formed the first Alliance between High Elves and humans, allowed 100 humans to be trained as mages. In return king Thoradin (a human) helped the High Elves defeat the Amani Trolls:

"Assured that Quel'Thalas was saved from destruction, the elves made a pledge of loyalty and friendship to the nation of Arathor and to the bloodline of its king, Thoradin. Humans and elves would nurture peaceful relations for ages to come." -- source

Apart from these lore figures you have the story of Dalaran (human nation) and the Convocation of Silvermoon (High Elf government organization) forming the council of tirisfal leading to the first Guardian of Tirisfal, Alodi (another half-elf).

To me that doesn't read like High Elves always ditch Humans at the first opportunity.

[Varx]

I know what you are referring to, placing the initial zone in the past or something, but that doesn't change that they currently exists and just adding the AR not only wouldn't screw the BE but add features different from what BE has such as cosmetics for the AR, racials, voicelines, different class selection and even events in the world just for being an alliance HE.

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Hah, did someone saw a Nightborne with light-blonde or black hair during legion? i didn't.

But then the AR appeared and gave some new options to play with.

No not in the past. In the present. Make it the horde/alliance conflict in 9.0. The retaking of silvermoon. This adds so many possibilities on top of playable high elves.

New horde and alliance conflict.

Additional races for demon hunters and new starting experience.

Updated eversong with flying.

New Bg/arena

New horde race to compensate.

All the new customisation options in the OP.

AR for pandaren to the horde and AR for the new horde race as the new ally swap to balance out nightborne.

Maybe vrykul for the new horde race and kvaldir for the alliance ar swap.

Etc etc

Now if you go the AR route then that's all you get.

[BTHSE]

They are on the alliance, you can't play one on the alliance, playing in the horde defeats the fantasy in the first place not only because they are on the horde but because they are not the same ones that are in the alliance.

Don't worry, i know perfectly what i'm talking about, and you know what you are talking about too, the difference is that you don't want to comprehend the meaning of the request.

Your request is that you want a Horde Race with none of its context, theme of fantasy. High Elves have only reluctantly been part of the alliance twice, neither times lasting more than a couple years at best, one of which being after they had already renamed themselves Blood Elves and ending with a human general attempting to genocide them. The Alliance High Elf fantasy is not a thing. Not in a way that justifies playability anyways. Sure the fantasy exists in players minds, but so does playing as a shape shifted dragon, so does being a neutral member of the earthen ring or Cenarion Circle, doesn't mean you're gonna get that in game nor should you.

As I've been repeatedly saying those Alliance High Elves depicted in game are outliers of an existing race. They are not their own race. They are not their own culture culture. They have no more legitimacy as a playable race than asking for blizzard to have a community of Taurens who deserted the horde to leave peacefully alongside the night elves. You want the fantasy of the member of a race who happens to betray their faction and happens to be joining another. The alliance high elf's only merit is they benefit in game depiction. But don't you dare tell me that they hold the High Elf context, theme and fantasy. They are a betrayal of that context, theme and fantasy. Because they betrayed the Blood Elves. Who are the High Elves.

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Interesting claim. Maybe you can give some examples to show High Elves always ditching humans at the first opportunity they get ?

Because my recollection of High Elf lore and characterization, based on the most prominent High Elven lore figures, is somewhat different.


Alleria Windrunner: got a half-elf son with a human who she still loves, even after hopping around the cosmos for a 1000 years. She also joined a human and dwarf army through the dark portal to another planet. To be honest that doesn't sound like ditching humans the first chance she got.

Vereesa Windrunner: got half-elf twins with a human husband (Rhonin) and sided with a human (Jaina) to kick Blood Elves out of Dalaran, a human city. She leads the Silver Covenant, a high elven organization, who joined the Alliance in northrend and has been (and probably still is) fighting by their side.

Sylvanas Windrunner: Allowed a human to join the High Elven Farstriders (Nathanos). Even though she is undead and no longer a High Elf she clearly still has feelings for him.

Kael'thas Sunstrider: was in love with Jaina (a human) and decided to team up with humans to fight the scourge in Lordaeron after the scourge had destroyed his homeland.

Anastarion Sunstrider: formed the first Alliance between High Elves and humans, allowed 100 humans to be trained as mages. In return king Thoradin (a human) helped the High Elves defeat the Amani Trolls:

"Assured that Quel'Thalas was saved from destruction, the elves made a pledge of loyalty and friendship to the nation of Arathor and to the bloodline of its king, Thoradin. Humans and elves would nurture peaceful relations for ages to come." -- source

Apart from these lore figures you have the story of Dalaran (human nation) and the Convocation of Silvermoon (High Elf government organization) forming the council of tirisfal leading to the first Guardian of Tirisfal, Alodi (another half-elf).

To me that doesn't read like High Elves always ditch Humans at the first opportunity.

All. Outliers. You are looking at individuals instead of the race.

Alleria betrayed her kings orders to fight the orcs because she saw the threat they posed. She came to warm up to humans from fighting alongside them. Which is not the case for the rest of the Elven race because they kept to themselves and saw mortal races as inferior.

Vereesa was assigned to escort a human. She hated that and made no secret of it because the Elves are prejudiced against other races. She did end up warming up to him and even marrying him! Fun fact : towards the end of the novel covering those events, day of the dragon, there is a paragraph mentioning how Alleria and Rhonin went around to advocate for collaboration and friendship between their races, again showing the level of prejudice since they wouldn't have had to do that otherwise.

Sylvanas Windrunner was highly criticized for showing such fondness for a human. Many elves opposed his appointment amongst the farstriders.

Kael'thas.... not the best example. Not only do I remember reading that Kael'thas was criticized in Silvermoon for being too fond of humans and spent more time in Dalaran that Quel'thalas, but he did end up seeking himself a fool for seeking human help, saying later that he lost far too much in dealing with humans and that he stood only for the elves now.

Anasterian sought human help under duress because his race faced extinction due to the troll invasions. The 100 humans being taught magic was the result of a deal to convince the human king to join his armies to the Troll wars. While Anasterian claimed himself indebted to the kingdom and bloodline of the king, when time came to repay this debt Anasterian sent only a token army to fullfill his obligation as he didn't feel concerned with the humans and their war with the orcs. It's only when said orcs were besieging his kingdom and threathening the very walls of silvermoon that he finally decided to join the alliance. Alliance which he left almost as soon as the war was over since he once more wanted nothing to do with the humans.

The story of Dalaran is the same as the story of Alleria and Vereesa, some elves happened to be forced into contact with humans, they ended up warming up to them. It speaks nothing to the race as a whole. If anything it further paints the picture of elves being prejudiced pricks ; they get along just fine with humans as soon as they get to know them, they just don't care to and prefer to remain secluded and far away from the mortal races they consider inferior.

Now have a look at the Thalassian civilization as a whole instead of looking at individuals : it's been stated many times that elves kept away because they saw other races as barbaric and inferior. They only ever thought contact when they absolutely had to due to threats of extinction. They were completely indifferent to the orc menace until they burnt their forests. They joined the alliance for a very brief period and left as soon as they did not need them anymore. They once again did nothing as the plague ravaged the kingdom of Lordaeron. They rejoined the alliance only for one of their generals to attempt to genocide them later on. Their prince swore off humanity. They joined the horde, the only reason they first joined the alliance, and took up arms against their former allies.

None of this screams fealty and loyalty to humanity to me.

To me that doesn't read like High Elves always ditch Humans at the first opportunity.

Rereading this part it occurs to me that we might be having a misunderstanding here. I don't for one second think that it's impossible for elves to like humans. To the contrary, my point is that elves are characterized as pricks because they can perfectly get along with humans just fine but, as a culture, a community, choose not to.

I never meant to be undesrtood as saying that all high elves as individuals will ditch humans at the first opportunity, I am saying that high elves as a single culture will. My point was to talk about race fantasy as implemented by blizzard ingame, if you play a certain race, no matter what you tell your buddies during roleplay sessions Blizzard always considers you to be a representative specimen of your race and culture. You can roleplay a Tauren who swore off the Horde and joined the Cenarion Circle permanently but from blizzard's point of view you're still a Tauren of the Horde who obeys the warchief until told otherwise.

Because the thing is Blizzard doesn't really do outlier storylines, or at least they didn't until a couple expansions ago when we started being 'the commander' and 'the leader of our order', and I want to really drive the point home that all high elves who are loyal to the alliance and buddy buddy with humans aren't representative of their race, they are outliers.

[Garfurion]

The playable ones are not the same. Blizz stated they are bigger and more robust due to their environment and living conditions.

They are the same biological race, that they have a different models is irrelevant to your earlier claim that no allied race is a copy of another race.

Blizzard clearly stated they wanted more diversity in human models and that Kul Tiran are human.

if you know anything about Darwin and evolution you'd know this is a definitely possible.

Clearly you don't know anything about Darwinism. You seem to believe in Lamarckism and that lifestyle characteristics can change your species and/or that of your offspring.

Again, Kul Tiran, whether they use the Fat, Skinny or Normal model, are human (as clearly stated by Alex Afrasiabi in a Lost Codex interview). They are the same species as Stormwind humans. They have not evolved into a different species which would have taken thousands if not millions of years of isolation. Also if Homo floresiensis is an indication then isolation on an island results in smaller species not larger species.

[Lumineus]

Has anyone else stopped posting because any real discussion was made a few hundred pages back and you just come back to see @<a href="https://www.mmo-champion.com/member.php?u=921322" target="_blank">Obelisk Kai</a> explain perfectly logical arguments and see which monkey's throw poop, or is that just me?

Nah, I come back here to find more obnoxious sycophants to pad my ignore list with.

[Varx]

They are the same biological race, that they have a different models is irrelevant to your earlier claim that no allied race is a copy of another race.

Blizzard clearly stated they wanted more diversity in human models and that Kul Tiran are human.



Clearly you don't know anything about Darwinism. You seem to believe in Lamarckism and that lifestyle characteristics can change your species and/or that of your offspring.

Again, Kul Tiran, whether they use the Fat, Skinny or Normal model, are human (as clearly stated by Alex Afrasiabi in a Lost Codex interview). They are the same species as Stormwind humans. They have not evolved into a different species which would have taken thousands if not millions of years of isolation. Also if Homo floresiensis is an indication then isolation on an island results in smaller species not larger species.

I'm aware of the length of time it takes for evolution to occur. I was just using it as an example. I'm not trying to apply it 100% to kul'tirans but they're body type are a direct result of their environment and adaptation. This is a magical world we're talking about here. You can't predict exactly how a location will change a given race or how fast. But in the case of Kul'Tirans, living in Kul'tiras has changed them dramatically as compared to every other human kingdom to date on Azeroth. I believe I read something about fighting sea monsters or some shit had something to do with it.

[FlubberPuddy]

I'm aware of the length of time it takes for evolution to occur. I was just using it as an example. I'm not trying to apply it 100% to kul'tirans but they're body type are a direct result of their environment and adaptation. This is a magical world we're talking about here. You can't predict exactly how a location will change a given race or how fast. But in the case of Kul'Tirans, living in Kul'tiras has changed them dramatically as compared to every other human kingdom to date on Azeroth. I believe I read something about fighting sea monsters or some shit had something to do with it.

Yeah but there are Kul'Tirans like Flynn and many others who use the same SW Human model and are considered KT. I think it's best to just accept that Blizzard will use whatever excuse/reason they want to make their additions fit into the game.

You'd have a point if every single Kul'Tiran looked like the big/burly/heavy ones, but they don't. The fact that there's Kul'Tirans with the regular Human models but voicelines/accents/mannerisms of Kul'Tirans means Blizzard doesn't have a hard-on for keeping races visually distinctive as some are trying to perpetuate.

[Gaidax]

I think Blizz will do something there. Ion did drop this possibility of High Elf skin for Void Elves and overall I do think that eventually they will cave and add this either as part of Void Elves or go nuclear option and add this as another subrace and enjoy the extra $$ they will make out of it.

[Garfurion]

.

None of this screams fealty and loyalty to humanity to me.

I never said that.

Update: I just read your update below the quote above so just removed the remainder of my response.

[Aldo Hawk]

@BTHSE Please stop parroting nonsense, is bothering.

First of all, yes, there is an existing fantasy about high elves living their lives alongside the members of the alliance and being part of the conflict, in fact, they -are- members of such faction.

Thalassians aren't a horde race, they are members of the horde as humans are members of the alliance, but you can't say that every human is alliance, right?

It's simple as it is, some people want to play with a character that has potential to be playable but currently isn't and everything is based about what can be seen in the lore and ingame, if HE being alliance members weren't a thing the petitions wouldn't have gotten so far don't you think?

And btw, find better comparisons please, shapeshifting dragons aren't a common race in any of the factions.