Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Garfurion]

The Silver Covenant is a militia based in Dalaran that serves the Kirin Tor.

Wouldn't it have made sense then for the Kirin Tor to order the Silver Covenant to stop opposing the Sunreavers in Dalaran ?

If there is a source stating that the Silver Covenant serves the Kirin Tor I would love to have a link to it because I haven't been able to find it ?

Looking at their reputation description the Silver Covenant is: "A militant core of high elves that rejects the admission of blood elves into the Kirin Tor. They've united under the banner of Vereesa Windrunner and joined the Alliance forces in Northrend."

Why would the Silver Covenant join the Alliance if they served the neutral Kirin Tor and why would the Kirin Tor allow this ?

Tides of War explicitly mentions Vereesa had no "formal voice" in the Kirin Tor, which implies there was no formal relationship between Vereesa as leader of the Silver Covenant and the Kirin Tor.

In Northrend they were a part of the Alliance Vanguard: "The combined forces of the Alliance in Northrend, lead by the Valiance Expedition, but also including civilian groups such as the Explorer's League.".

Blizzard Insider #28 also clearly lists them as a faction or sub-faction of the Alliance:

"The Alliance and Horde have each mobilized their forces to fight the mounting threat of the Scourge.
...
Here is a list of the Alliance and Horde factions and sub-factions that have joined the front line in Northrend:
...
* The Silver Covenant – This group of high elves represents the Alliance in Dalaran, the floating city hovering above Crystalsong Forest in Northrend. The Silver Covenant opposes the entry of the blood elves into the Kirin Tor, the council of elite magi that rules Dalaran.
"

Blizzard Insider states explicitly that the Silver Covenant is a faction or subfaction of the Alliance and makes no mention of them serving the Kirin Tor.

In Mists of Pandaria, the Silver Covenant assisted Kirin Tor leader Jaina Proudmoore in the purge of Dalaran.

The Alliance players also assisted Jaina, but that didn't mean the players serve the Kirin Tor or are under Dalaran command.

The Silver Covenant were founded to oppose the Sunreavers and that was no secret. It makes sense Jaina would ask her friend Vereesa and the Silver Covenant to help her.

When the city pledged itself to the Alliance, they served in the Kirin Tor Offensive on the Isle of Thunder.

Again could you please link a reference backing up the claim that the Silver Covenant officially served the Kirin Tor ?

To me it seems the Kirin Tor and Silver Covenant were simply allies fighting together for a common cause. In WW2 the French, British, Canadians, Polish forces fought together under USA command in Europe but that didn't mean they served the United States of America.

In the first Battle of the Broken shore the Silver Covenant also didn't join the Kirin Tor led by Jaina which indicates they don't necessarily always fight together.

The Silver Covenant, as a militia based in Dalaran and sworn to the Kirin Tor, remained technically neutral.

Again could you please link the reference backing up the claim that the Silver Covenant officially served the Kirin Tor. I don't see how the Silver Covenant can serve both the neutral Kirin Tor and the non-neutral Alliance at the same time so if there is any lore source or Blizzard statement supporting this it would be interesting to read.

Now, I am fairly well versed in the lore.

Which is why I'm seriously curious what reference you have found that the Silver Covenant serves the Kirin Tor because all the information I have found so far indicates they were and are a faction or sub-faction of the Alliance.

I have demonstrated plentiful evidence to back up my assertion that the Silver Covenant, while full of pro-Alliance Alliance High Elves, is technically neutral.

I read your interpretation of events but the Silver Covenant official description and Blizzard Insider #28 state the Silver Covenant is part of the Alliance, not the Kirin Tor so it would be useful if you could list the lore references or official Blizzard statements backing up your observations.

As such, to say the Silver Covenant is an Alliance faction is false.

Blizzard Insider #28 (which is an official Blizzard source) literally stated they were an Alliance faction or sub-faction.

Everyone within it is definitely Alliance, but the organisation itself is Dalarani.

It was founded in Dalaran, but I don't see how that results in Dalaran having any control over it or owning it.

It was Alliance aligned for only so long as Dalaran was a part of the Alliance, and it left along with Dalaran when neutrality was reimposed.

If the Silver Covenant left the Alliance with Dalaran in Legion then why didn't we see them controlling the Silver Enclave in Legion? Only a few rangers and mages staying behind, when most rangers joined the Unseen Path, would have been enough to to teleport Horde players away and protect their home instead of letting a bunch of Worgen rename it and leave hairs everywhere.

The Silver Covenant was part of the Alliance Forces in Northrend (according to their description) when Dalaran was neutral and A Royal Audience seems to indicate that the Silver Covenant, represented by their leader, Vereesa Windrunner, was still affiliated with the Alliance in Legion when Dalaran was again neutral.

[Strippling]

Your only purpose was for me to accept your info in regards to say that it's posible for blood elves to recover the blue eyes, i get it, you have a hungry ego.

The thing you are being missing over and over is that my response was towards Obelisk stating: "let them near a fount of magic and their eyes will turn blue", which i responded that that's not how it works, and then Garfurion answered with the info about fel fading over time, which was irrelevant to the point in the first place because the Sunwell do not take direct action in that.

Then you, how not, answered with the idiotic quote about the Sunwell being both arcane and light, which is even more out of point of what Garfurion answered, because at least him posted something that shows directly that Blood elves not could recover the blue eye color, but that they will recover it over time if they don't tap on other sources.

After this, don't try to answer me, you will be already ignored, i had enought.

You really have dug yourself into a hole. Not once have you provided any evidence to your posts, but yet you have disregarded countless replies to you by people who have provided evidence. You then go on to act like they missed the point, when in reality you just have no case and have been throwing any comments out there all for the sake of "muh alliance high elfs".

Let me ask you a few simple questions... 1) is the high elven race currently playable? 2) What has Blizzard said in regards to the few alliance aligned high elfs?
3) Why do you think void elfs were introduced in place of alliance high elfs? 4) Do you feel maintaining clear and distinct faction lines is important in WoW?

Answer these questions and look at them in context.. maybe then you'll start to see a reason as to why they are not playable and why they shouldn't be

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Again could you please link a reference backing up the claim that the Silver Covenant officially served the Kirin Tor ?

The Silver Covenant is a militant faction of the Kirin Tor. Led by the high elf Vereesa Windrunner, https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Silver_Covenant

The Silver Covenant are certainly Alliance aligned, but they are firstly a militant faction of the Kirin Tor who assist the Alliance from time to time.

One such case of assisting the ALliance was during WotLK when they joined the Alliance Vanguard. But when you look up the Alliance Vanguard this is what you get:

Spearheaded by the Valiance Expedition, the Alliance Vanguard consists of the following factions:

Valiance Expedition - The main army of the Alliance in Northrend, unified under King Varian Wrynn's command.
Explorers' League - An organization dedicated to researching the origin of the dwarven race.
The Frostborn - Having recently befriended the Explorers' League, the frost dwarves have agreed to join the Alliance.
The Silver Covenant - A militant faction of the Kirin Tor, these high elves have recently teamed up with the Vanguard.

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Alliance_Vanguard

As much as it may be hard to believe, the Silver Covenant are more aligned with the Kirin Tor than the ALliance. Yet some folks in here froth at the mouth when stating "but but muh high elfs are a CORE alliance race". No folks, they are not.

[Aldo Hawk]

@Strippling I explained why it was irrelevant to the point, pay more attention, period.

[Strippling]

@Strippling I explained why it was irrelevant to the point, pay more attention, period.

@Aldo Hawk *Beating your chest* does not equal explaining something. You're an angry little fella.

[Aldo Hawk]

@Aldo Hawk *Beating your chest* does not equal explaining something. You're an angry little fella.

Oh no, i'm an angry little fella because this guy told so out of the blue and i'm not gonna sleep this night because of it...

I don't care if you didn't liked how i explained it, that doesn't change the meaning.

Oh shi* my chest has a hole now!

[Ielenia]

Dalaran IS NOT an alliance city, it is neutral. Did you not see all the forsaken mages leading the mage order hall in Dalaran?

The mage order hall in Legion was the Council of Tirisfal, which I believe is separate from the Kirin Tor.

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The Silver Covenant is a militant faction of the Kirin Tor. Led by the high elf Vereesa Windrunner, https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Silver_Covenant

WoWWiki is a bit infamous, and the WoWPedia entry for the Silver Covenant lacks the "of the Kirin Tor" part, only describing them as a "militant faction of high elves".

Valiance Expedition - The main army of the Alliance in Northrend, unified under King Varian Wrynn's command.
Explorers' League - An organization dedicated to researching the origin of the dwarven race.
The Frostborn - Having recently befriended the Explorers' League, the frost dwarves have agreed to join the Alliance.
The Silver Covenant - A militant faction of the Kirin Tor, these high elves have recently teamed up with the Vanguard.

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Alliance_Vanguard

The in-game description of the Silver Covenant faction says:

"A militant core of high elves that rejects the admission of blood elves into the Kirin Tor. They've united under the banner of Vereesa Windrunner and joined the Alliance forces in Northrend."

[Syegfryed]

WoWWiki is a bit infamous, and the WoWPedia entry for the Silver Covenant lacks the "of the Kirin Tor" part, only describing them as a "militant faction of high elves".
[/I]

Wowpedia is often edited by the high elf supporters to flourish their point of view

[Aucald]

The mage order hall in Legion was the Council of Tirisfal, which I believe is separate from the Kirin Tor.

Technically the Mage Order Hall was represented by the Tirisgarde, an elite group of powerful Mages dedicated to hunting down an errant Guardian if such a scenario occurred. They were created when Aegwynn refused to surrender the mantle (and the collective power) of the Council of Tirisfal, instead opting to pass it on to a candidate she would choose: her own son, Medivh. Meryl Felstorm re-purposed the Tirisgarde into an order devoted to the protection of Azeroth as the Guardian was no longer officially a position that would require them.

[Strippling]

Oh no, i'm an angry little fella because this guy told so out of the blue and i'm not gonna sleep this night because of it...

I don't care if you didn't liked how i explained it, that doesn't change the meaning.

Oh shi* my chest has a hole now!

You're yet to show any evidence that your explanation is valid.... despite being asked several times by several people (all who have provided their own evidences to support their views).

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WoWWiki is a bit infamous, and the WoWPedia entry for the Silver Covenant lacks the "of the Kirin Tor" part, only describing them as a "militant faction of high elves".

Ditto to what @Syegfryed said.

The in-game description of the Silver Covenant faction says:

"A militant core of high elves that rejects the admission of blood elves into the Kirin Tor. They've united under the banner of Vereesa Windrunner and joined the Alliance forces in Northrend."

Thanks for the additional source. In-game description verifying the ties the high elfs have with the Kirin Tor.

[Aucald]

WoWWiki is a bit infamous, and the WoWPedia entry for the Silver Covenant lacks the "of the Kirin Tor" part, only describing them as a "militant faction of high elves".[/I]

Wowpedia is often edited by the high elf supporters to flourish their point of view

Both the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers are affiliated with the Kirin Tor, but they're not really part of it. The Kirin Tor is essentially the senate or parliament of Dalaran, they debate and determine the laws and policies of the city-state. The Silver Covenant and Sunreavers aren't involved in this process and are subject to its directives which is why they're able to be exiled from Dalaran if the Kirin Tor decides to do so.

[Ielenia]

Wowpedia is often edited by the high elf supporters to flourish their point of view

Oh, really? Got any proof of that, or is this one of those "dude, trust me on this one!" kind of arguments? Can you show to me the changes done that prove that "high elf supporters often edit to push their views"?

The site does keep a history of changes. Shouldn't be hard for you to find some evidence.

Ditto to what @Syegfryed said.

Which was nothing of real value, mind you.

Thanks for the additional source. In-game description verifying the ties the high elfs have with the Kirin Tor.

Speaking "flourishing their point of view"... here you are, doing the same. The in-game description does not say they are a faction within the Kirin Tor.

[Obelisk Kai]

Oh, really? Got any proof of that, or is this one of those "dude, trust me on this one!" kind of arguments? Can you show to me the changes done that prove that "high elf supporters often edit to push their views"?
.

A couple of years ago during a previous thread on this topic in these forums a rather adamant pro High Elfer got fixated on the fact that Wowpedia listed Dalaran as the capital of the High Elves. Because Dalaran was listed as the capital, he took it as proof that they were a proper major race and began insisting on using it as evidence. He treated wowpedia as one hundred percent canon, despite people pointing out that by it's very nature it was open to being edited by anyone and that while mostly accurate, some stuff would inevitably be subjective opinion or flat out wrong based on the bias of whoever wrote the article or altered it.

This was particularly egregious at the time as this individual, like most modern pro High Elfers, had previously been unable to cite a single scrap of evidence in support of his arguments and had instead resorted to attacking the evidence produced by the anti High Elf side. That he went all in on citing something from wowpedia left him somewhat exposed as a hypocrite.

It got especially funny when someone else from the debate went into the wowpedia article and corrected the capital to what it is today, none. It It was funny because the pro High Elfer had been insisting on using it as absolute holy writ, and someone from here demonstrated that it shouldn't and couldn't be treated as such. This triggered an edit war, wowpedia mods got involved and it eventually ended up where it is today, listing the racial capital as none but formerly Silvermoon city.

The High Elf article does seem to be updated quite a lot looking at the history, but I can't say it's being done by pro High Elfers on a consistent basis.

[Syegfryed]

Oh, really? Got any proof of that, or is this one of those "dude, trust me on this one!" kind of arguments? Can you show to me the changes done that prove that "high elf supporters often edit to push their views"?

just see the "population" section, totally floured to look like there are more high elves than the reality, including the Archmage Vargoth journal as valuable source and many times saying "several" high elves, when in fact was just a few, barely mention of the theramore event, and they still talk about their appearance in zulaman cata when its retconed by chronicles already.

The site does keep a history of changes. Shouldn't be hard for you to find some evidence.

too much irrelevant stuff to search out, like, it was edited yesterday, like there is much info to add recently.

[Beloren]

Both the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers are affiliated with the Kirin Tor, but they're not really part of it. The Kirin Tor is essentially the senate or parliament of Dalaran, they debate and determine the laws and policies of the city-state. The Silver Covenant and Sunreavers aren't involved in this process and are subject to its directives which is why they're able to be exiled from Dalaran if the Kirin Tor decides to do so.

Thank you. For some common sense here.. it is news to me that the Silver Covenant isn't alliance, it's like saying the Sunreavers, my fave group isn't horde.

Thanks for this.

[Obelisk Kai]

Wouldn't it have made sense then for the Kirin Tor to order the Silver Covenant to stop opposing the Sunreavers in Dalaran ?

If there is a source stating that the Silver Covenant serves the Kirin Tor I would love to have a link to it because I haven't been able to find it ?

If the Kirin Tor could have done that, it would have. They are militias based on Dalaran, pledged to serve the Kirin Tor. In fact, when you see them out in the field in almost all instances they are working under Kirin Tor leadership. The Isle of Thunder, the purge of Dalaran and the siege of Suramar are the ones people cite, and in each instance they were with the Kirin Tor. That is the source, what is plainly visible in game.

But they also have unique command structures and a measure of independence in how they do things.

Looking at their reputation description the Silver Covenant is: "A militant core of high elves that rejects the admission of blood elves into the Kirin Tor. They've united under the banner of Vereesa Windrunner and joined the Alliance forces in Northrend."

I could (and am) arguing that the word 'joined' is not in this context synonymous with merged or united, and is in fact comparable to when the Horde joined with the Alliance during the assault on the Broken Shore.

Why would the Silver Covenant join the Alliance if they served the neutral Kirin Tor and why would the Kirin Tor allow this ?

As stated, they are a militia with an independent command structure. They clearly see themselves as the voice of the Alliance within the city of Dalaran. But they are citizens of Dalaran and subject to the ruling body of Dalaran.

Tides of War explicitly mentions Vereesa had no "formal voice" in the Kirin Tor, which implies there was no formal relationship between Vereesa as leader of the Silver Covenant and the Kirin Tor.

No, it implies that Veressa doesn't have a formal voice within the Kirin Tor. The Kirin Tor is the magocracy which runs Dalaran. Veressa has no say in how they run the city or their affairs, but if they instruct her to do something I have no doubt she would have to do it. She lives in their city and has an armed militia living there. She must do so on their sufferance.

In Northrend they were a part of the Alliance Vanguard: "The combined forces of the Alliance in Northrend, lead by the Valiance Expedition, but also including civilian groups such as the Explorer's League.".

Yep, they are a militia. They aren't part of an official army as the official army of their people are now a part of the Horde.

militiaDictionary result for militia
/mɪˈlɪʃə/Submit
noun
a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency.
"creating a militia was no answer to the army's manpower problem"

In other words, they are one of those civilian groups. I assume they were created by Veressa as a response to the Sunreavers, but also as a beacon for the remaining Alliance High Elves to have somewhere to gather up. They supplemented Kirin Tor forces in the Isle of Thunder and in the assault on Suramar. When Dalaran joined the Alliance, they were able to offer explicit assistance to the Alliance.

Blizzard Insider #28 also clearly lists them as a faction or sub-faction of the Alliance:

"The Alliance and Horde have each mobilized their forces to fight the mounting threat of the Scourge.
...
Here is a list of the Alliance and Horde factions and sub-factions that have joined the front line in Northrend:
...
* The Silver Covenant – This group of high elves represents the Alliance in Dalaran, the floating city hovering above Crystalsong Forest in Northrend. The Silver Covenant opposes the entry of the blood elves into the Kirin Tor, the council of elite magi that rules Dalaran.
"

Blizzard Insider states explicitly that the Silver Covenant is a faction or subfaction of the Alliance and makes no mention of them serving the Kirin Tor.

Blizzard insider also state that the Sunreavers represent the Horde. Prior to their expulsion, the Sunreavers were a similar militia representing Horde interests. But they lived in Dalaran. Aethas was Veressa's counterpart. In fact, a large chunk of the Mists of Pandaria storyline revolved around the conflicting loyalties Aethas had between the city and the Horde faction. When Jaina found out about the divine bell, she angrily exclaimed she would not 'be betrayed again'. She immediately teleported to Dalaran and confronted Aethas. If Aethas, Veressa's counterpart, was a part of the Horde faction, then there is no way Jaina could have been betrayed by him. Only because he and the Sunreavers was part of Dalaran was there perceived betrayal. And what goes for the Sunreavers would logically hold true for the Silver Covenant.

The Alliance players also assisted Jaina, but that didn't mean the players serve the Kirin Tor or are under Dalaran command.

The Alliance player was sent by King Wrynn to liase with Jaina earlier in the quest. They don't live in Dalaran, and assist Jaina because what is happening is clearly in the interests of the Alliance.

To me it seems the Kirin Tor and Silver Covenant were simply allies fighting together for a common cause. In WW2 the French, British, Canadians, Polish forces fought together under USA command in Europe but that didn't mean they served the United States of America.

That presumes an equality between the two groups. A better comparison would be between the UK government and the Free French under De Gaulle. The Free French in many cases had to do what they were told by their hosts and had a limited voice in how things were decided. The Silver Covenant are former soliders of the military of quel'thalas who live in a foreign city. Of course they are subject to a measure of control by the legitimate authority of that city.

In the first Battle of the Broken shore the Silver Covenant also didn't join the Kirin Tor led by Jaina which indicates they don't necessarily always fight together.

Yet had they been there it would have been cited as another example of how the Alliance High Elves are apparently ominpresent and used more in the story than some playable races, which is a retort I don't believe in. They are a small group, they can't and won't be used everywhere.

Again could you please link the reference backing up the claim that the Silver Covenant officially served the Kirin Tor. I don't see how the Silver Covenant can serve both the neutral Kirin Tor and the non-neutral Alliance at the same time so if there is any lore source or Blizzard statement supporting this it would be interesting to read.

I thought it was blatantly obvious from within the game. The Silver Covenant lives in Dalaran. They were formed in wotlk by the wife of the then leader of Dalaran. Do you think the Silver Covenant would have been formed if the Council of Six had not given their permission? They owe their existence to the charity of the Kirin Tor. On nearly every occasion we have seen them in combat, they have been accompanying Kirin Tor forces. Even the siege of Suramar, where if you go to Veressa outside the gates you will see Kirin Tor forces and banners right next to her.

As for how they can, they don't. It's a question of hats. The Silver Covenant probably cannot fight the Horde as the Silver Covenant. But if they go as members of the 7th Legion, they can. And have, as silver covenant mages are wearing 7th legion regalia when assisting in the Arathi warfront. All two of them.

If the Silver Covenant left the Alliance with Dalaran in Legion then why didn't we see them controlling the Silver Enclave in Legion? Only a few rangers and mages staying behind, when most rangers joined the Unseen Path, would have been enough to to teleport Horde players away and protect their home instead of letting a bunch of Worgen rename it and leave hairs everywhere.

Plausible, but the three sisters comic makes clear Veressa and her children still live in Dalaran. As to why the enclave was taken over by the Worgen, I like to think Alliance High Elf numbers have fallen to the point where they couldn't sustain the Enclave by themselves anymore...I mean their contribution to the siege of Suramar can best be described as tokenistic. And the Horde enclave was renamed because the Sunreavers were ejected and when the Horde was welcomed back it was the entire Horde, not Aethas who had to further ingratiate himself with the Kirin Tor to gain readmission.

The Silver Covenant was part of the Alliance Forces in Northrend (according to their description) when Dalaran was neutral and A Royal Audience seems to indicate that the Silver Covenant, represented by their leader, Vereesa Windrunner, was still affiliated with the Alliance in Legion when Dalaran was again neutral.

As I said, it's a question of hats. The Silver Covenant lives in Dalaran, but that's a fig leaf as every single one of them is loyal to the Alliance. Remember, what we are arguing over is a tiny technicality. The Silver Covenant IS an Alliance faction, but technically, in the most strict reading of events,they are bound to Dalaran.

To be fair I think this point of disagreement is over something incredibly tiny. In every way that matters they are an Alliance a faction, I am merely arguing that technically they aren't.

A lot of what I am drawing is how the Sunreavers were treated and behaved after all, prior to their ejection from Dalaran and their full integration into the Horde military. The Sunreavers' description is phrased similarly to that of the Silver Covenant in that source you linked.

Which brings me to the Sunreaver Thalen Songweaver

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Thalen_Songweaver

He was sent, by Aethas, to assist in the defense of Theramore against a Horde attack, despite being a Horde citizen. There were misgivings (entirely correct ones as it turned out) by Theramore defenders but he was accepted as he was a part of a Kirin Tor force. Now, yes, he ended up betraying them and helping to get everyone killed but the fact remains he was a Horde citizen, a member of the Sunreavers (Silver Covenant counterpart) and while he was distrusted, he was still allowed to come on the grounds that the Kirin Tor and their associated militias were officially neutral. And if that goes for the Sunreavers, it likely holds true for the Silver Covenant.

[Garfurion]

The Silver Covenant is a militant faction of the Kirin Tor. Led by the high elf Vereesa Windrunner, https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Silver_Covenant

Wowwiki and Wowpedia try to describe lore, but since (almost) anyone can write stuff on it the exact wording cannot be taken as canon lore. This being an example.

Blizzard Insider #28 was officially published by Blizzard and therefore what is written there is officially part of the lore unless contradicted later by an equally official source.

It literally states the Silver Covenant were an faction or sub-faction of the Alliance in Northrend.

Here is a list of the Alliance and Horde factions and sub-factions that have joined the front line in Northrend:

Alliance Vanguard – Recognizing the threat posed by Arthas' latest aggressive actions, the Alliance Vanguard represents a larger campaign dedicated to halting the Scourge in Northrend before the undead menace can spread further southward.

* Valiance Expedition – The Valiance Expedition is the Alliance Vanguard's main military presence in Northrend. Dedicated to the destruction of the Lich King, the Valiance Expedition contains several of the Alliance's greatest heroes, including King Varian Wrynn himself.

* Explorers' League – The Explorers' League is a predominantly dwarven faction committed to uncovering new territory, discovering ancient ruins, and compiling the history of Azeroth. The league has joined forces with the Alliance Vanguard in the hopes of recovering lost artifacts from the forgotten reaches of Northrend.

* The Silver Covenant – This group of high elves represents the Alliance in Dalaran, the floating city hovering above Crystalsong Forest in Northrend. The Silver Covenant opposes the entry of the blood elves into the Kirin Tor, the council of elite magi that rules Dalaran.

*The Frostborn – These frost dwarves, native to the Storm Peaks, have welcomed their southern cousins and agreed to join the Alliance Vanguard in its stand against the Lich King.

As much as it may be hard to believe, the Silver Covenant are more aligned with the Kirin Tor than the ALliance.

I would have no problem believing it if anyone would link an official Blizzard source (publication, interview, quest text, etc...) backing up that claim because otherwise it is just personal interpretation.

Both the in-game Silver Covenant reputation description:

"A militant core of high elves that rejects the admission of blood elves into the Kirin Tor. They've united under the banner of Vereesa Windrunner and joined the Alliance forces in Northrend."

and Blizzard Insider #28 state the Silver Covenant were at least in WotLK a sub-faction of the Alliance.

I have yet to see an official source stating they are officially part of the Kirin Tor or sworn/pledged to the Kirin Tor.

[Strippling]

Both the in-game Silver Covenant reputation description:

"A militant core of high elves that rejects the admission of blood elves into the Kirin Tor. They've united under the banner of Vereesa Windrunner and joined the Alliance forces in Northrend."

I have yet to see an official source stating they are officially part of the Kirin Tor or sworn/pledged to the Kirin Tor.

That's literally the exact quote I sourced from Wowwiki which you dismissed....

Why would the Silver Covenant reject the admission of Blood Elfs into the Kirin Tor if they weren't a part of/pledged to the Kirin Tor themselves? That's like me rejecting someone from joining a basketball team I'm not even in...

[Ielenia]

just see the "population" section, totally floured to look like there are more high elves than the reality, including the Archmage Vargoth journal as valuable source and many times saying "several" high elves, when in fact was just a few, barely mention of the theramore event, and they still talk about their appearance in zulaman cata when its retconed by chronicles already.

What "population" section? The Silver Covenant does not have that section. If you're talking about the 'high elf' page's, then what exactly is "flouring" about the "pro-high elf" thing, considering it looks like it supports more your side than the pro-high-elf's.

too much irrelevant stuff to search out, like, it was edited yesterday, like there is much info to add recently.

Well, it's there if you want to look for actual evidence for your claims instead of dropping a "dude, trust me on this one" argument.

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A couple of years ago during a previous thread on this topic in these forums a rather adamant pro High Elfer got fixated on the fact that Wowpedia listed Dalaran as the capital of the High Elves. Because Dalaran was listed as the capital, he took it as proof that they were a proper major race and began insisting on using it as evidence. He treated wowpedia as one hundred percent canon, despite people pointing out that by it's very nature it was open to being edited by anyone and that while mostly accurate, some stuff would inevitably be subjective opinion or flat out wrong based on the bias of whoever wrote the article or altered it.

This was particularly egregious at the time as this individual, like most modern pro High Elfers, had previously been unable to cite a single scrap of evidence in support of his arguments and had instead resorted to attacking the evidence produced by the anti High Elf side. That he went all in on citing something from wowpedia left him somewhat exposed as a hypocrite.

It got especially funny when someone else from the debate went into the wowpedia article and corrected the capital to what it is today, none. It It was funny because the pro High Elfer had been insisting on using it as absolute holy writ, and someone from here demonstrated that it shouldn't and couldn't be treated as such. This triggered an edit war, wowpedia mods got involved and it eventually ended up where it is today, listing the racial capital as none but formerly Silvermoon city.

Hmm. I don't follow this thread all the time, mostly when someone responds to me or it pops in the "recent forum posts" section of the main page, so it's interesting ot hear about some past events. Thanks.

The High Elf article does seem to be updated quite a lot looking at the history, but I can't say it's being done by pro High Elfers on a consistent basis.

Yeah. That's my point in response to @Syegfryed's claim that the WoWpedia articles are being "constantly edited by high elf supporters to push their views."

[Garfurion]

If the Kirin Tor could have done that, it would have. They are militias based on Dalaran, pledged to serve the Kirin Tor.

They are pledged to serve the Kirin Tor, yet the Kirin Tor cannot tell them what to do. How exactly do they serve the Kirin Tor then ?

Again please link an official source which unambiguously states that the Silver Covenant are "pledged to serve the Kirin Tor"

In fact, when you see them out in the field in almost all instances they are working under Kirin Tor leadership. The Isle of Thunder, the purge of Dalaran and the siege of Suramar are the ones people cite, and in each instance they were with the Kirin Tor. That is the source, what is plainly visible in game.

No, that is your interpretation of what you see in game. To me it didn't seem the Silver Covenant were there against their will, forced by their pledge to serve their Kirin Tor overlords.

No, it implies that Veressa doesn't have a formal voice within the Kirin Tor.

It doesn't imply, it literally states Vereesa had no formal voice in the Kirin Tor.

"Jaina knew that Vereesa was the leader of the Silver Covenant, a presence the high elf herself had formed as a precaution against possible treachery from the Sunreavers, blood elves who had been granted permission to join the Kirin Tor. As such, Vereesa was vocal and outspoken--but had no formal voice in the Kirin Tor." -- Tides of War

The Kirin Tor is the magocracy which runs Dalaran. Veressa has no say in how they run the city or their affairs, but if they instruct her to do something I have no doubt she would have to do it.

Again. that is just a personal interpretation unless backed up by an official source.

She lives in their city and has an armed militia living there. She must do so on their sufferance.

The Silver Covenant would have to abide by the law while in Dalaran, just like any other visitor or inhabitant. That doesn't mean they have to follow the Kirin Tor's orders outside the city.

Blizzard insider also state that the Sunreavers represent the Horde. Prior to their expulsion, the Sunreavers were a similar militia representing Horde interests.
But they lived in Dalaran. Aethas was Veressa's counterpart.

They were only counterparts in that they were leaders of opposing sub-factions of the Horde and Alliance. That's where the similarities end.

Aethas was a member of the Council of Six, the ruling body of the Kirin Tor. Vereesa may have been married to the leader of the Kirin Tor but as far as I can tell she was just a citizen of Dalaran.

This is also the major difference between the Sunreavers and Silver Covenant.

The Sunreavers were Blood Elves from Quel'Thalas who moved/returned to Dalaran to (re-)join the Kirin Tor. Some if not all also did join the Kirin Tor according to Tides of War.

The Silver Covenant were High Elves who, to be best of my knowledge, were already living in Dalaran and opposed the coming/return of the Sunreavers to Dalaran and them (re-)joining the Kirin Tor. However, they never joined the Kirin Tor (which also wouldn't make sense since most of them aren't mages.)

In fact, a large chunk of the Mists of Pandaria storyline revolved around the conflicting loyalties Aethas had between the city and the Horde faction. When Jaina found out about the divine bell, she angrily exclaimed she would not 'be betrayed again'. She immediately teleported to Dalaran and confronted Aethas.
If Aethas, Veressa's counterpart, was a part of the Horde faction, then there is no way Jaina could have been betrayed by him. Only because he and the Sunreavers was part of Dalaran was there perceived betrayal. And what goes for the Sunreavers would logically hold true for the Silver Covenant.

Again, Aethas was a member of the Council of Six, the ruling body of the Kirin Tor. He was therefore expected (and potentally sworn) to uphold the decisions of the Council of Six which he didn't . He therefore betrayed the Kirin Tor and the Council of Six.

Vereesa never was not part of the Kirin Tor or the Dalaran government and therefore your logic doesn't hold.

I thought it was blatantly obvious from within the game. The Silver Covenant lives in Dalaran. They were formed in wotlk by the wife of the then leader of Dalaran. Do you think the Silver Covenant would have been formed if the Council of Six had not given their permission?

I don't see why the Council of Six would give permission to form a militia to oppose a decision they made. I also don't see why they would need the permission of the Kirin Tor. I certainly don't think Rhonin could have ordered Vereesa to abolish the Silver Covenant (although it might have been interesting to watch the discussion).

As long as they didn't break any Dalaran laws they are/were basically just an High Elven archery club. I assume that the Dalaran chess and bridge clubs also didn't need permission from the Council of Six.

As I said, it's a question of hats. The Silver Covenant lives in Dalaran, but that's a fig leaf as every single one of them is loyal to the Alliance. Remember, what we are arguing over is a tiny technicality. The Silver Covenant IS an Alliance faction, but technically, in the most strict reading of events,they are bound to Dalaran.

They are only bound to Dalaran in that is where they had/have probably lived in Dalaran for long time. They could pack up and leave to settle down in another city and it wouldn't change them (unless it was a Horde town ofc).

To be fair I think this point of disagreement is over something incredibly tiny. In every way that matters they are an Alliance a faction, I am merely arguing that technically they aren't.

You can argue that they are but there doesn't seem to be any source backing it up.

A lot of your "evidence" is based on interpretation of in-game situations which is influenced by your point of view.

I have seriously and honestly tried to find a quote or lore text that would support your claim that the Silver Covenant are pledged or sworn to serve the Kirin Tor but I haven't been able to find any.

I also disagree it is over something incredibly tiny. Whether the Silver Covenant are an independent group/faction or not is a fundamental aspect of their identity so I think any claim that they were pledged to serve the Kirin Tor should be backed up with facts, not assumptions or interpretations.

A lot of what I am drawing is how the Sunreavers were treated and behaved after all, prior to their ejection from Dalaran and their full integration into the Horde military. The Sunreavers' description is phrased similarly to that of the Silver Covenant in that source you linked.

The Sunreaver description is somewhat similar but the key difference is that the Sunreavers wanted to join the Kirin Tor organization (and did according to Tides of War).

"The Sunreavers campaign to bring their kind into the fold of the Kirin Tor.". -- Blizzard Insider #28

Which brings me to the Sunreaver Thalen Songweaver

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Thalen_Songweaver

He was sent, by Aethas, to assist in the defense of Theramore against a Horde attack, despite being a Horde citizen. There were misgivings (entirely correct ones as it turned out) by Theramore defenders but he was accepted as he was a part of a Kirin Tor force. Now, yes, he ended up betraying them and helping to get everyone killed but the fact remains he was a Horde citizen, a member of the Sunreavers (Silver Covenant counterpart) and while he was distrusted, he was still allowed to come on the grounds that the Kirin Tor and their associated militias were officially neutral. And if that goes for the Sunreavers, it likely holds true for the Silver Covenant.

Thalen Songweaver was a member of the Kirin Tor (according to Tides of War) and therefore he was trusted/accepted as was Aethas.

Again, there is a key difference between the Sunreavers and the Silver Covenant. It's not like the Silver Covenant and Sunreavers were rival factions of mages within the Kirin Tor. Blizzard clearly placed the Silver Covenant outside the Kirin Tor and modeled them as (mainly) rangers.

- - - Updated - - -

That's literally the exact quote I sourced from Wowwiki which you dismissed....

No you wrote:

The Silver Covenant is a militant faction of the Kirin Tor. Led by the high elf Vereesa Windrunner, https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Silver_Covenant

Which claims that the Silver Covenant is a faction of the Kirin Tor, which is clearly different from:


"A militant core of high elves that rejects the admission of blood elves into the Kirin Tor. They've united under the banner of Vereesa Windrunner and joined the Alliance forces in Northrend."

which doesn't make that claim but is the official in-game reputation description. Wowwiki isn't an official source of Warcraft lore.

Why would the Silver Covenant reject the admission of Blood Elfs into the Kirin Tor if they weren't a part of/pledged to the Kirin Tor themselves? That's like me rejecting someone from joining a basketball team I'm not even in...

I'm not sure an exact explanation has ever been given. Tides of War states that Vereesa had formed the Silver Covenant as a precaution against possible treachery from the Sunreavers.

You basketball team comparison is also not completely accurate since that wouldn't affect you personally. To stick to the basketball team comparison. It's like you rejecting someone who wants to join your basketball team and become it's captain after that person kicked you out of their rugby team


Although the Silver Covenant probably would never admit it, I think was probably mainly resentment and fear which led them to oppose the return of the Sunreavers to Dalaran. The Kirin Tor is the organization which rules Dalaran, the city in which the Silver Covenant Elves live(d). The Silver Covenant Elves had been exiled from their own country, Quel'Thalas, because they refused to leech mana from living beings. When the Kirin Tor decided to allow the Sunreavers back into Dalaran it meant that the Silver Covenant Elves had to share "their"(new) home with the same people that had exiled them from their homeland. to make matters potentially worse, once the Sunreavers had rejoined the Kirin Tor they could have had more influence into the running of Dalaran than the Silver Covenant Elves.

[Syegfryed]

What "population" section?

the population section in the high elf page

then what exactly is "flouring" about the "pro-high elf" thing, considering it looks like it supports more your side than the pro-high-elf's.

i already said why they flourish, irrelevant stuff, non-canon sources, and pre-retcon information.