Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Thalassian Bob]

I wouldn't necessarily call slapping some tattoos on Blood Elfs and changing their eye color "creative"

Haha! High elves aren't something I personally want in game (I actually find most Alliance-aligned high elves, especially the Silver Covenant, morally repugnant), but I do think that those who are trying to make them distinct from blood elves - as much as that's possible with only eye colour "hard" separating them physically - have generated a lot of pretty cool content with all the proposals for face/hair/racial armor/mounts options they have put forward.

I respect their creative striving for differentiation, even if I don't want the same things they do.

Although the Silver Covenant probably would never admit it, I think was probably mainly resentment and fear which led them to oppose the return of the Sunreavers to Dalaran. The Kirin Tor is the organization which rules Dalaran, the city in which the Silver Covenant Elves live(d). The Silver Covenant Elves had been exiled from their own country, Quel'Thalas, because they refused to leech mana from living beings. When the Kirin Tor decided to allow the Sunreavers back into Dalaran it meant that the Silver Covenant Elves had to share "their"(new) home with the same people that had exiled them from their homeland. to make matters potentially worse, once the Sunreavers had rejoined the Kirin Tor they could have had more influence into the running of Dalaran than the Silver Covenant Elves.

Pretty sure the only 'high elven' group who were ever explicitly exiled from Quel'Thalas were those residing at Quel'Lithien. The majority of high elves living in Dalaran, including members of the Silver Covenant, are probably ex-pats who left Quel'Thalas before the Third War and the Scourge Invasion. Those who were not present to try help defend Quel'Thalas from Arthas' assault and those who did not answer Kael'thas' call for a counter-offensive of reclamation. They probably turned a blind eye to the attempted murder of Kael'thas in Dalaran too.

[elbleuet]

Some pro's claim that they are more core to the Alliance then some currently playable ALliance races, yet they have contributed less to the current faction war than any of the playable Alliance races (including the Alliance ARs).
I haven't seem the Silver Covenant out in "force" this expansion. Probably because their main allegiance is to the Kirin Tor, whose leader doesn't want any part of this war. The majority of times we see high elfs with any significant role is when the Kirin Tor is involved.

I haven't seen the Alliance Pandaren out in force this expansion whereas they're playable. And way more High elves were introduced this expansion than Alliance pandarens despite being not playablen atm.

That's really not an argument.

[Syegfryed]

How about giving examples? Because I don't see anything "flourish" or "irrelevant". Even the non-canon sources they cite, the RPG books, is mentioned to be contested in that same page.

i already said that, you ignored

1- Saying several high elves many times when they are few
2- not mentioning the various causalities from theramore
3- Archmage Vargoth as somehow valuable source
4- still mentioning the zul'man event when its already retconed

and this is just a few examples that i get from quickly scrolling.

- - - Updated - - -

I haven't seen the Alliance Pandaren out in force this expansion whereas they're playable.

lots of pandaren npcs in the war, the horde even have a mission to kill a healer from a hospital

And way more High elves were introduced this expansion than Alliance pandarens despite being not playablen atm.

That's really not an argument.

way more? don't look like.

[FlubberPuddy]

Haha! High elves aren't something I personally want in game (I actually find most Alliance-aligned high elves, especially the Silver Covenant, morally repugnant), but I do think that those who are trying to make them distinct from blood elves - as much as that's possible with only eye colour "hard" separating them physically - have generated a lot of pretty cool content with all the proposals for face/hair/racial armor/mounts options they have put forward.

I respect their creative striving for differentiation, even if I don't want the same things they do.

And it's good to see this sort of rationality.

It's irksome when people go "why wouldn't all this just go to Blood Elves?" uh because the point is to make them different so those who do spout "it's just blue eye blood elves" can stop spouting it, which makes putting it on Blood Elves a circular self-defeating statement to the levels of Jackie-chan meme: "We don't want High Elves to look like Blood Elves but we want all these ideas for High Elves to go to Blood Elves"

Pretty sure the only 'high elven' group who were ever explicitly exiled from Quel'Thalas were those residing at Quel'Lithien. The majority of high elves living in Dalaran, including members of the Silver Covenant, are probably ex-pats who left Quel'Thalas before the Third War and the Scourge Invasion. Those who were not present to try help defend Quel'Thalas from Arthas' assault and those who did not answer Kael'thas' call for a counter-offensive of reclamation. They probably turned a blind eye to the attempted murder of Kael'thas in Dalaran too.

Chronicles also added to the fact that there was a different mindset and culture between those Elves living in Dalaran vs the ones back in Quel'thalas. It sure seems to keep getting ignored though or uncommented on by some of the staunch opposers in here to High Elves, even when Kael'thas the Prince himself admitted having those differences from his people. It could be deduced that if Kael'thas, who was written as loving his people dearly, shared those opposing sentiments to Quel'thalas then there's obviously other more common Dalaran Elves that felt just as much that way or even more.

But a lot of the last few pages has turned into throwing insults as subtly as one can while arguing over things such as if Silver Covenant is part of the Alliance or not when they have aided the Alliance on many occasions.

It's not covered by any of the comments from the fansites but the Vanion Interview with Ion regarding Allied Races and Mechagnomes is that they "haven't necessarily finalized every single one of those" AR decisions but it's exciting for them to hear feedback from the community about what's most exciting to them.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=289956/...-azshara-plans

IDK about y'all but I don't see "the community" getting excited over mechagnomes. I do or have seen though that races such as Vulpera, Undead Elves, High Elves, Sethrak be some of the biggest topic generators regarding Allied Races.

Whenever I've seen topics on Mechagnomes it's been presented as lukewarm or troll-y. This is by "the community" overall.

- - - Updated - - -

way more? don't look like.

Probably means unique-named NPCs rather than generic panda soldier #11. Besides it makes sense to see few High Elves, it fits. But there's been more unique High Elf NPCs added with almost every expansion, which is uncommon for a race that 'shouldn't matter' or mean much. They sure do seem to play core to the Alliance with one of the High Elf portal trainers training Alliance mages in the new portal room in 8.1.5. That High Elf is even training a Void Elf NPC, suggesting more mastery over arcane magic than a Void Elf.

[Ielenia]

1- Saying several high elves many times when they are few

Wow, you're really reaching with this one. I imagine roughly fifteen hundred elves do count as "several".

2- not mentioning the various causalities from theramore

Source on the high elf casualties from Theramore? As far as I know, the civilian population was evacuated.

3- Archmage Vargoth as somehow valuable source

And why wouldn't he be?

4- still mentioning the zul'man event when its already retconed

There are no mentions of Zul'Aman in the population section.

[Syegfryed]

Wow, you're really reaching with this one. I imagine roughly fifteen hundred elves do count as "several".

such canon sources waow

Source on the high elf casualties from Theramore? As far as I know, the civilian population was evacuated.

The only survivors of Theramore's destruction were those looking for Songweaver, Jaina Proudmoore (due to the actions of Rhonin), Kalecgos (who was thrown out to sea from the explosion), and a ship full of civilians, mostly children, who evacuated Theramore before the fighting started.

Tides of War, obviously, and as far as we know the kor'kron capture a ship and you can see the civilians in SoO, so, lots of HE died there same as normal humans

And why wouldn't he be?

Because its old information, from a npc point of view who, is not precise or necessary canon, he just saw a sunfury attack and claim it was thousands, with no means to count.

There are no mentions of Zul'Aman in the population section.

there are mentions of their participation in zul'aman, implying they are relevant "herp high elf appear in all expansions as core alliance race, like in zulaman" and its retconed already they didn't

[Aldo Hawk]

And it's good to see this sort of rationality.

It's irksome when people go "why wouldn't all this just go to Blood Elves?" uh because the point is to make them different so those who do spout "it's just blue eye blood elves" can stop spouting it, which makes putting it on Blood Elves a circular self-defeating statement to the levels of Jackie-chan meme: "We don't want High Elves to look like Blood Elves but we want all these ideas for High Elves to go to Blood Elves"



Chronicles also added to the fact that there was a different mindset and culture between those Elves living in Dalaran vs the ones back in Quel'thalas. It sure seems to keep getting ignored though or uncommented on by some of the staunch opposers in here to High Elves, even when Kael'thas the Prince himself admitted having those differences from his people. It could be deduced that if Kael'thas, who was written as loving his people dearly, shared those opposing sentiments to Quel'thalas then there's obviously other more common Dalaran Elves that felt just as much that way or even more.

But a lot of the last few pages has turned into throwing insults as subtly as one can while arguing over things such as if Silver Covenant is part of the Alliance or not when they have aided the Alliance on many occasions.

It's not covered by any of the comments from the fansites but the Vanion Interview with Ion regarding Allied Races and Mechagnomes is that they "haven't necessarily finalized every single one of those" AR decisions but it's exciting for them to hear feedback from the community about what's most exciting to them.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=289956/...-azshara-plans

IDK about y'all but I don't see "the community" getting excited over mechagnomes. I do or have seen though that races such as Vulpera, Undead Elves, High Elves, Sethrak be some of the biggest topic generators regarding Allied Races.

Whenever I've seen topics on Mechagnomes it's been presented as lukewarm or troll-y. This is by "the community" overall.

- - - Updated - - -



Probably means unique-named NPCs rather than generic panda soldier #11. Besides it makes sense to see few High Elves, it fits. But there's been more unique High Elf NPCs added with almost every expansion, which is uncommon for a race that 'shouldn't matter' or mean much. They sure do seem to play core to the Alliance with one of the High Elf portal trainers training Alliance mages in the new portal room in 8.1.5. That High Elf is even training a Void Elf NPC, suggesting more mastery over arcane magic than a Void Elf.

The goal is to make as if HE aren't even members of the alliance, going little by little twisting everything by suppositions, implications, thoughts and representations of the lore.

Just look at how Obelisk keep repeating that now Void elves all of a sudden can turn other elves into Void elves, just because a dev said that they start as a small group. That's interpretation of the information, not a fact. The only purpose is to say that now populations matter again or something, like half the playable races aren't low populated or came from mass death situations.

It's everything about how the current lore is depicted and making as if it is in their favor or something.

Damn HE living in apartments in Dalaran, now they are damn urbanite civilians or something, they actually have their own portion of the city for godsake, it's pathetic...

[Syegfryed]

Probably means unique-named NPCs rather than generic panda soldier #11.

And what unique-name npcs who are not generic high elf npc, are those? you re not talking about the island group i presume

But there's been more unique High Elf NPCs added with almost every expansion, which is uncommon for a race that 'shouldn't matter' or mean much.

its called fanservice

They sure do seem to play core to the Alliance with one of the High Elf portal trainers training Alliance mages in the new portal room in 8.1.5. That High Elf is even training a Void Elf NPC, suggesting more mastery over arcane magic than a Void Elf.

so, just being random class trainer is already be core thing hum

[elbleuet]

Tides of War, obviously

What page please. I have the book, and I suppose you do too.

as far as we know the kor'kron capture a ship and you can see the civilians in SoO so, lots of HE died there same as normal humans

Source where we're told that high elves are among the casualties ? Link ? Mind sharing a picture of it ? Or is it just your headcanon?

[Obelisk Kai]

They are pledged to serve the Kirin Tor, yet the Kirin Tor cannot tell them what to do. How exactly do they serve the Kirin Tor then ?

Again please link an official source which unambiguously states that the Silver Covenant are "pledged to serve the Kirin Tor"

The Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers from the WOLTK era seemingly functioned as militias within Dalaran, yet ones who represented the interests of the superpowers yet were based in Dalaran and lived there. As they live in Dalaran, it logically follows that they must obey the Kirin Tor who form the government of Dalaran (Or are you arguing that the Kirin Tor is in the habit of hosting foreign armed forces for the hell of it?).

It is a form of dual loyalty, something very common in real life where immigrants who live somewhere form an allegiance to thier new state, but also retain a loyalty to where they came from. For the Silver Covenant, their loyalty to the wider Alliance and their loyalty to Dalaran have never come into conflict with each other.

It was precisely this conflict that undid the Sunreavers, when Garrosh pressed some among them to aid the Horde by undermining Dalaran. Once the deception was uncovered, they were accused of betraying Dalaran and were purged at which point they had to be integrated into the Horde military, a point that was specifically made by Lor'themar.

When the Kirin Tor offensive deployed on the Isle of Thunder, during the period when Dalaran had sided with the Alliance, the Silver Covenant accompanied them and did not have their own independent military command structure on the island.

When the Silver Covenant arrived at Suramar, they did so in the company of other Kirin Tor forces and with Khadgar, the head of the council of six.

It appears that they do have a measure of operational independence, given their temporary union with the Unseen path in Legion. If they did not have a measure of independence, then they wouldn't even be a distinct unit from the rest of the Kirin Tor military. Therefore, they are trusted to conduct their affairs but are expected to aid Dalaran if required.

No, that is your interpretation of what you see in game. To me it didn't seem the Silver Covenant were there against their will, forced by their pledge to serve their Kirin Tor overlords.

That is not what is happening. This is a mutually beneficial arrangement for both sides and the Silver Covenant has clearly been eager to offer their assistance to the Kirin Tor, but the Kirin Tor IS the dominant partner in the relationship.

It doesn't imply, it literally states Vereesa had no formal voice in the Kirin Tor.

"Jaina knew that Vereesa was the leader of the Silver Covenant, a presence the high elf herself had formed as a precaution against possible treachery from the Sunreavers, blood elves who had been granted permission to join the Kirin Tor. As such, Vereesa was vocal and outspoken--but had no formal voice in the Kirin Tor." -- Tides of War

That backs me up surely? It emphasises that the point of the Silver Covenant was as a reaction to the Sunreavers. The Sunreavers, as we know, were the initial Elves who taught Humanity magic and who had dwelled in Dalaran for centuries. They had been evacuated from the city prior to the Legion attack, and clearly returned home to Quel'thalas. Dalaran was rebuilt, Rhonin became leader, and suddenly the Sunreavers had returned and asked to rejoin Dalaran society. Veressa was angry that Rhonin was allowing this, and she formed the Silver Covenant in response. And just like the Sunreavers, the Alliance High Elves coming to Dalaran joined Dalaran society which de facto placed them under the overall authority of the Kirin Tor. And if Dalaran society is officially neutral, then all component parts of it are neutral even if individual members hold strong partisan views they express outside the city's jurisdiction. Veressa didn't have a voice in the Kirin Tor because she was not a Mage, not because she operated completely independently.

The Silver Covenant would have to abide by the law while in Dalaran, just like any other visitor or inhabitant. That doesn't mean they have to follow the Kirin Tor's orders outside the city.

No government in history in fiction or reality could tolerate a completely independent militia operating unchecked from within their city. Imagine if Veressa had struck out against the Horde on her own volition and then retreated to the city? There is simply no way the Silver Covenant can openly attack the Horde without compromising Dalaran's neutrality. If the Silver Covenant is bound to respect Dalaran's neutrality, then this circumscribes their independence even outside Dalaran. And have you not noticed? There are a few, a very few Alliance High Elves who are flagged as Silver Covenant fighting in this war, but they are wearing 7th Legion regalia.

If what you were saying was true, why aren't they proudly displaying their Silver Covenant colours?

They were only counterparts in that they were leaders of opposing sub-factions of the Horde and Alliance. That's where the similarities end.

Yet multiple times in the post I am responding to, you linked this http://media.wow-europe.com/insider/28/en/index.html and quoted the word of god within it regarding the Silver Covenant.

The Silver Covenant – This group of high elves represents the Alliance in Dalaran, the floating city hovering above Crystalsong Forest in Northrend. The Silver Covenant opposes the entry of the blood elves into the Kirin Tor, the council of elite magi that rules Dalaran.

Yet when we check the corresponding entry for the Sunreavers


The Sunreavers – This group of blood elves has agreed to represent the Horde in Dalaran. The Sunreavers campaign to bring their kind into the fold of the Kirin Tor.

Note the similarities in wording between the two entries. Both 'represent' their respective factions. Yet from the Sunreavers we see their struggle to reconcile their loyalty to Dalaran with their loyalty to their people, a conflict they ultimately could not resolve. It is clear that both sides were concepted as counterparts.

Aethas was a member of the Council of Six, the ruling body of the Kirin Tor. Vereesa may have been married to the leader of the Kirin Tor but as far as I can tell she was just a citizen of Dalaran.

Yet Veressa cannot have joined the Kirin Tor because she wasn't a Mage. The Sunreavers were the original High Elven inhabitants of the city who taught Humanity magic and when they returned they still proved to be a majority Mage force. Aethas joined the six because of his skill in magic and the large number of Mage in HIS militia.
Also, acknowledging Veressa was a citizen of Dalaran immediately places her within the bonds of Kirin Tor law. If all Silver Covenant members are citizens, and they are let's be honest, then what the Silver Covenant is...is a militia of DALARAN citizens based in DALARAN.
.

The Sunreavers were Blood Elves from Quel'Thalas who moved/returned to Dalaran to (re-)join the Kirin Tor. Some if not all also did join the Kirin Tor according to Tides of War.

The Silver Covenant were High Elves who, to be best of my knowledge, were already living in Dalaran and opposed the coming/return of the Sunreavers to Dalaran and them (re-)joining the Kirin Tor. However, they never joined the Kirin Tor (which also wouldn't make sense since most of them aren't mages.)

Most Sunreavers were Mages. As a result, more of them could join the Kirin Tor.

There are Alliance High Elves who are both part of the Kirin Tor and the Silver Covenant because they are Mages. The Silver Covenant as a whole however seems to be primarily composed of former Farstriders, likely a mix of those who were exiled by Lor'themar and veterans of the Second War who felt a debt and loyalty to the Alliance and who never went home.

Again, Aethas was a member of the Council of Six, the ruling body of the Kirin Tor. He was therefore expected (and potentally sworn) to uphold the decisions of the Council of Six which he didn't . He therefore betrayed the Kirin Tor and the Council of Six.

Aethas was on the council because he was a powerful Mage. Had he not been a Mage, and the same actions were committed, would Jaina have thought him less a traitor?

Vereesa never was not part of the Kirin Tor or the Dalaran government and therefore your logic doesn't hold.

Veressa is the head of a major Dalaran based militia and a senior military figure within the city.

I don't see why the Council of Six would give permission to form a militia to oppose a decision they made. I also don't see why they would need the permission of the Kirin Tor. I certainly don't think Rhonin could have ordered Vereesa to abolish the Silver Covenant (although it might have been interesting to watch the discussion).

Seriously? It's their city, the Silver Covenant is a military force who have shacked up there. Of course they needed the permission of the Kirin Tor to form. The Sunreavers asked for permission to come back in.

As long as they didn't break any Dalaran laws they are/were basically just an High Elven archery club. I assume that the Dalaran chess and bridge clubs also didn't need permission from the Council of Six.

A trite comparison given the presence of the Silver Covenant at several Kirin Tor military operations. I doubt the Dalaran chess and bridge clubs were sent to attend those.

They are only bound to Dalaran in that is where they had/have probably lived in Dalaran for long time. They could pack up and leave to settle down in another city and it wouldn't change them (unless it was a Horde town ofc).

I do not believe they have lived in Dalaran for a long time, particularly as we know that the High Elf Dalaran population prior to the destruction of the city was primarily Mages. They likely accompanied Kael back to Quel'thalas prior to the city's fall, at which point any remaining High Elves would have been scattered. The Silver Covenant is primarily a Ranger force, patterned after the Farstriders and they joined the Hunter class hall during Legion, not the Mage. Veressa probably put out the word that any of her people who followed her pro Alliance ideology should congregate in Dalaran, and she probably did that after the Sunreavers showed up (as this was the explicit reason for the existence of the SC).

You can argue that they are but there doesn't seem to be any source backing it up.

A lot of your "evidence" is based on interpretation of in-game situations which is influenced by your point of view.

I have seriously and honestly tried to find a quote or lore text that would support your claim that the Silver Covenant are pledged or sworn to serve the Kirin Tor but I haven't been able to find any.

How about the multiple occasions the SC has been seen accompanying the Kirin Tor in their expeditions? Particularly in the assault on Suramar.

I also disagree it is over something incredibly tiny. Whether the Silver Covenant are an independent group/faction or not is a fundamental aspect of their identity so I think any claim that they were pledged to serve the Kirin Tor should be backed up with facts, not assumptions or interpretations.

Identity? This isn't a race, this is a small group of expatriate traitors. They don't really have an identity beyond that. It's a small point because the technicality over whether they follow the Kirin Tor or are pro Alliance is just that, a technicality. The Silver Covenant's members still fight for the Alliance on the battlefield, they just wear different uniforms to do so.

The Sunreaver description is somewhat similar but the key difference is that the Sunreavers wanted to join the Kirin Tor organization (and did according to Tides of War).

"The Sunreavers campaign to bring their kind into the fold of the Kirin Tor.". -- Blizzard Insider #28

Which they had the opportunity to do, given they were primarily Mages. The primarily Hunter Silver Covenant could not, but the Silver Covenant was formed specifically on an issue that came from Dalaran society.

Thalen Songweaver was a member of the Kirin Tor (according to Tides of War) and therefore he was trusted/accepted as was Aethas.

Again, there is a key difference between the Sunreavers and the Silver Covenant. It's not like the Silver Covenant and Sunreavers were rival factions of mages within the Kirin Tor. Blizzard clearly placed the Silver Covenant outside the Kirin Tor and modeled them as (mainly) rangers.

This is true, but that distinction only gets you so far. The Sunreavers also had a degree of operational independence, just as the Silver Covenant does. Thalen could be a Kirin Tor member because he was a Mage. Yet the Silver Covenant consists of Dalaran citizens, and just because they are not members of the Kirin Tor it does not follow they are relieved of their duties to the city they have settled in. As citizens of Dalaran, which you acknowledge that at least Veressa, the SC leader is, it is logical to assume that such citizenship requires loyalty to the Kirin Tor and the magocratic government. As a result, the SC is at least bound to the Kirin Tor through their status as Dalaran citizens and as such is required to respect the neutrality of Dalaran and to uphold that in the outside world.

Which means when they go off to war they can't do it as Silver Covenant.

[Ielenia]

such canon sources waow

I'm waiting for your canon source that states it's "few" high elves and not "several" or more, then.

Tides of War, obviously, and as far as we know the kor'kron capture a ship and you can see the civilians in SoO, so, lots of HE died there same as normal humans

That still doesn't say much, you know?

Because its old information, from a npc point of view who, is not precise or necessary canon, he just saw a sunfury attack and claim it was thousands, with no means to count.

So you're comparing a quick count done in the heat of the moment in the middle of an attack... to a more calculated assessment of the situation?

there are mentions of their participation in zul'aman, implying they are relevant "herp high elf appear in all expansions as core alliance race, like in zulaman" and its retconed already they didn't

There are no mentions of Zul'Aman in the 'population' section.

[Syegfryed]

I'm waiting for your canon source that states it's "few" high elves and not "several" or more, then.

well blizz words say every time they re few in numbers,e ven lower than the gnomes, so, saying several is wrong, and this is canon

That still doesn't say much, you know?

yeah if don't fit your point don't say much

So you're comparing a quick count done in the heat of the moment in the middle of an attack... to a more calculated assessment of the situation?

im saying that a quick count (who is not even quick count, he just saw an army and said it was thousand) done in the heat of the moment in the middle of an attack is not a valuable source and should not be used as canon with numbers to "proof" the high elf population.

There are no mentions of Zul'Aman in the 'population' section.

there are mention of then in the page lul, stop nitpicking.

- - - Updated - - -

What page please. I have the book, and I suppose you do too.

if you have the book you can search it

Source where we're told that high elves are among the casualties ? Link ? Mind sharing a picture of it ? Or is it just your headcanon?

High elves are citizens of theramore? if yes than they are among the casualties

"picture of it"? headcanon? cute

[elbleuet]

if you have the book you can search it

Yes, and the only high elf ever mentionned in taking part of the defense of Theramore is Vereesa Windrunner.

High elves are citizens of theramore? if yes than they are among the casualties

Theramore citizens got evacuted. Those who were trapped and exposed in Orgrimmar are only humans.

[Garfurion]

Pretty sure the only 'high elven' group who were ever explicitly exiled from Quel'Thalas were those residing at Quel'Lithien.

Vereesa was also exiled as stated by the Silvermoon Messenger near Zul'Aman:

Silvermoon Messenger says: Lord Lor'themar demands an explanation for the presence of this... exile in our lands.

When she was exiled is not really clear nor if others were but in Lor'themar Theron: In the Shadow of the Sun there is an interaction between Aethas and Lor'Themar after Lor'Themar returned from a visit to Quel'Lithien Lodge which could be taken to imply that Lor'Themar exiled her at the same time he exiled the Elves of Quel'Lithien Lodge.

"How did they react to you?" Aethas asked. Lor'themar turned to stare at him.

"Five years ago I threw them out of the homes they had fought for every bit as fiercely as anyone in Quel'Thalas today," he answered. "How do you think they reacted?"

Aethas winced.

"Vereesa Windrunner is married to the new leader of the Kirin Tor. She is not fond of me, or those I represent. I had hoped… because you were a ranger…" Aethas shrugged. "I thought maybe you could help us bridge that gap. I suppose not."

Lor'themar scowled at the mention of Vereesa's name. "You suppose correctly," he said.

[Ielenia]

well blizz words say every time they re few in numbers,e ven lower than the gnomes, so, saying several is wrong, and this is canon

This is how we can see how you're grasping at straws. It's not wrong. First, because quantifiers like "few", "many", "several", etc, are not exact, and usually depend on the context they're being used. For example: you can have "several" bricks, but they're "too few" to make a house.

yeah if don't fit your point don't say much

Right back at you. You're taking non-existing information and making it fact.

im saying that a quick count (who is not even quick count, he just saw an army and said it was thousand) done in the heat of the moment in the middle of an attack is not a valuable source and should not be used as canon with numbers to "proof" the high elf population.

It's still "A" source of information. Just because he got wrong in one thing does not mean he got wrong on everything else.

there are mention of then in the page lul, stop nitpicking.

You were the one that mentioned the population section specifically, and when pointed out how there's nothing in the population section that supports your claim, you then moved onto "look at the whole page". That's called "moving goalposts". There is also your false claim that the WoWPedia is "constantly being editted by pro-high-elf to flourish their views" that you haven't yet shown a single iota of evidence that it is happening.

[Syegfryed]

Yes, and the only high elf ever mentionned in taking part of the defense of Theramore is Vereesa Windrunner.

barely mentioned, because they are not rly worth it.

but there are high elves living there and there was casualities among then.

Theramore citizens got evacuted. Those who were trapped and exposed in Orgrimmar are only humans.

i already point out the quote who said who survived, the rest died or was trapped afterward.

- - - Updated - - -

This is how we can see how you're grasping at straws. It's not wrong. First, because quantifiers like "few", "many", "several", etc, are not exact, and usually depend on the context they're being used. For example: you can have "several" bricks, but they're "too few" to make a house.

Yet you can't have several bricks, from just 8

Right back at you. You're taking non-existing information and making it fact.

sure

It's still "A" source of information. Just because he got wrong in one thing does not mean he got wrong on everything else.

Is a source of wrong information, not a valuable source to proof their numbers, who is wrong regardless.

You were the one that mentioned the population section specifically

No, i said they flourish the wiki, you ask me for examples, i said one of then is the population section, then i talk about other example, the zul'aman thing, you nitpicking thinking i just being restricted to the population section.

and when pointed out how there's nothing in the population section that supports your claim,

Except there is, to much flourish when there is none

you then moved onto "look at the whole page".

i said more than one example? im shocked

That's called "moving goalposts".

no, this is giving more information.

There is also your false claim that the WoWPedia is "constantly being editted by pro-high-elf to flourish their views" that you haven't yet shown a single iota of evidence that it is happening.

i gave the examples of how they flourish the things trying to look more than reality, comparing to the wowiki who is much more succinct and direct

Regardless, you can just not believe, this is what look like

[Ielenia]

Yet you can't have several bricks, from just 8

... Are you implying that "8" is the number of high elves in Warcraft?

Except there is, to much flourish when there is none

And yet you fail to present a single evidence of that, despite your claims of "much flourish".

i said more than one example? im shocked

No, it's moving the goalposts. Because your original example showed nothing of your claims, and when called out you moved to a "different example" without addressing the fact your original didn't do any of what you claim it did.

i gave the examples of how they flourish the things trying to look more than reality

Only you haven't. Especially when your point of contention is "they used the word 'several'!"

[Syegfryed]

... Are you implying that "8" is the number of high elves in Warcraft?

are you implying you can build house with high elves?

And yet you fail to present a single evidence of that, despite your claims of "much flourish".

just because you don't aprove, don't men its not evidence.

No, it's moving the goalposts. Because your original example showed nothing of your claims

just because you think it don't don't mean it don't, i already show how they flourish the events to look like there is more than reality, and compared to the wowwiki who is more succinct and direc. If you don't like it, or think its not enough, its your problem

Only you haven't. Especially when your point of contention is "they used the word 'several'!"

oh yeah the nitpicking again, lets just attack the word and not the entire point, not moving goalposts

[Ielenia]

are you implying you can build house with high elves?

I'm starting to think you're trolling, at this point. Why even use that exact number?

just because you don't aprove, don't men its not evidence.

Dude, "ZOMG they used the word 'several'!!" is not a valid argument. And the citation of the archmage is valid because it's an in-game source. He may have been wrong on the account of attacking elves, but that does not necessarily mean he's wrong about everything else.

just because you think it don't don't mean it don't, i already show how they flourish the events to look like there is more than reality

You haven't. Read above. Complaining about the word "several" being used is not a valid argument.

oh yeah the nitpicking again, lets just attack the word and not the entire point, not moving goalposts

Except this "word" is a big part of your point when you talk about "flourishing".

[Syegfryed]

I'm starting to think you're trolling, at this point. Why even use that exact number?

you are the one with the bricks argument

Dude, "ZOMG they used the word 'several'!!" is not a valid argument. And the citation of the archmage is valid because it's an in-game source. He may have been wrong on the account of attacking elves, but that does not necessarily mean he's wrong about everything else.

its not a valid source to determine the actual, factual and true number of elves, and its exactly what they do in the page, take it as canon and factual source of how many high elves exist, like i said, flourish, even the wowwiki(who cite the archmage) at least said the number is "not precisely known"

They also barely mention their losses among the expansions and they inability to breed faster, who decrease their numbers even more.

funny thing, if the archmage number was canon, maybe half or 2/3 of then is already lost due to their causalities, in theramore, isle of thunder, etc, putting how they are scattered around the globe, this diminish even more the possibility of then being playable.

You haven't. Read above. Complaining about the word "several" being used is not a valid argument.

alright

Except this "word" is a big part of your point when you talk about "flourishing".

no its not, its just one of the things.