1. #9081
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Your entire post here is completely nullified by the fact that this exists as a real discussion Blizzard is wanting players to discuss. Countless times i've told you to understand what context means and then maybe you wouldn't be confused on why people are moving towards discussing high elf skins for Void Elves.

    You can say "simple as that" or whatever but that's you ignoring the discussion topic has moved past that previous Blizz response to the more recent one about possible High Elf fantasy being delivered through Void Elves.

    At the very minimum, you have to understand that everything being discussed here and said by Blizzard are all potential possibilities, literally nothing has been decided for the future, only no playable High Elves for BFA at minimum.

    Until you can come to terms with these facts and contexts, of course you're going to keep going in circles and being confused per your own words.
    I'm confused at the fact that pro high elfers are so fixated on having "the real high elfs on the alliance" becoming playable, and dismissing the fact that blood elfs (who are high elfs) are already playable, yet in the same breath the pro high elfers seem to be okay with void elfs having lighter customization options... which goes against what they've been trying to "claim" this whole time. Most pro high elfers claim void elfs were a fail as an attempt to be a compromise, and commonly state "we want high elfs, nothing less". Wouldn't lighter skinned void elfs still be void elfs in your eyes? I thought you wanted "high elfs"? I thought RP'ing as one wasn't enough and you wanted to actually BE one? Well guess what, you'd still have to RP as an "alliance high elf" if you played a light skinned "void elf". Hence why I am confused. Do you want the lore or do you want the looks?

    In the words of typical pro high elfers claiming it's all about the lore, I would have thought the response to possible lighter customization's would have been negative from you folk. But alas, it is not, which verifies the claims many anti's made that the only reason people want high elfs is for the aesthetics.. and that is why I refer to the still valid comments made by Ion... the Horde is waiting for you.

    I understand anything is possible. High elfs are possible, but extremely unlikely. Lighter skin options for void elfs is also possibly, though again highly unlikely. I don't need to come to terms with these facts. But I can't help but sit here confused at the pro community who wanted high elfs for the lore but then now want the customization options (which (A) isn't the lore you wanted and attacked anti's for, and (B) would actually detract from what the void elfs ARE). Shallow requests (such as wanting the opposing factions aesthetics) will always receive shallow responses.

    One question I do have for you, how do you think Horde and Blood Elf players should feel if the lighter customization options are given to the void elfs? Given that the pro community profusely state that void elfs are purple blood elfs, not purple high elfs. Or do you not care about this? In which case don't act baffled when people dispute your "innocent" requests.
    Last edited by Strippling; 2019-03-15 at 01:52 AM.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  2. #9082
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    I'm confused at the fact that pro high elfers are so fixated on having "the real high elfs on the alliance" becoming playable, and dismissing the fact that blood elfs (who are high elfs) are already playable, yet in the same breath the pro high elfers seem to be okay with void elfs having lighter customization options... which goes against what they've been trying to "claim" this whole time. Most pro high elfers claim void elfs were a fail as an attempt to be a compromise, and commonly state "we want high elfs, nothing less". Wouldn't lighter skinned void elfs still be void elfs in your eyes? I thought you wanted "high elfs"? I thought RP'ing as one wasn't enough and you wanted to actually BE one? Well guess what, you'd still have to RP as an "alliance high elf" if you played a light skinned "void elf". Hence why I am confused. Do you want the lore or do you want the looks?

    In the words of typical pro high elfers claiming it's all about the lore, I would have thought the response to possible lighter customization's would have been negative from you folk. But alas, it is not, which verifies the claims many anti's made that the only reason people want high elfs is for the aesthetics.. and that is why I refer to the still valid comments made by Ion... the Horde is waiting for you.

    I understand anything is possible. High elfs are possible, but extremely unlikely. Lighter skin options for void elfs is also possibly, though again highly unlikely. I don't need to come to terms with these facts. But I can't help but sit here confused at the pro community who wanted high elfs for the lore but then now want the customization options (which (A) isn't the lore you wanted and attacked anti's for, and (B) would actually detract from what the void elfs ARE). Shallow requests (such as wanting the opposing factions aesthetics) will always receive shallow responses.

    One question I do have for you, how do you think Horde and Blood Elf players should feel if the lighter customization options are given to the void elfs? Given that the pro community profusely state that void elfs are purple blood elfs, not purple high elfs. Or do you not care about this? In which case don't act baffled when people dispute your "innocent" requests.
    never try to rationalize crazy, especially crazy fandoms. these dudes and dudetts will be screaming for high elves till wow dies sometime in the distant future and very likely still wont have them.

    there is no rationalizing with them you just sit back nod and laugh as each patch roles by and each straw clutched breaks.

  3. #9083
    Elemental Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    I have a feeling that Blizzard is intending to blur faction lines in the expansion after BfA. It is really based on nothing outside they are so focused on the war, introducing more races and stating it is for the last time. The line of "not wanting to blur faction lines" just seems to be thrown out there as a red herring.

    Again, it is how I feel based on the facts ... I don't believe it is going to happen, it just makes sense to be and I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
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  4. #9084
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    I'm confused at the fact that pro high elfers are so fixated on having "the real high elfs on the alliance" becoming playable, and dismissing the fact that blood elfs (who are high elfs) are already playable, yet in the same breath the pro high elfers seem to be okay with void elfs having lighter customization options... which goes against what they've been trying to "claim" this whole time.
    It's called "compromise".

    "Void elves with light skin option" is not what the pro-high-elf community originally wanted, but's a compromise many are willing to accept.

    Most pro high elfers claim void elfs were a fail as an attempt to be a compromise, and commonly state "we want high elfs, nothing less". Wouldn't lighter skinned void elfs still be void elfs in your eyes?
    Don't be dishonest and act as if the entire pro-high-elf community is one hive mind where everyone thinks exactly the same just because they agree on one single thing. Some want high elves "as is", others are perfectly fine with some changes done to them. Some want "real" high elves, are ok with a light skin option for void elves.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  5. #9085
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's called "compromise".

    "Void elves with light skin option" is not what the pro-high-elf community originally wanted, but's a compromise many are willing to accept.
    The compromise was already made with void elfs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post

    Don't be dishonest and act as if the entire pro-high-elf community is one hive mind where everyone thinks exactly the same just because they agree on one single thing. Some want high elves "as is", others are perfectly fine with some changes done to them. Some want "real" high elves, are ok with a light skin option for void elves.
    Most pro high elfers claimed it was always about the lore. The recent discussions about lighter customization's is proof it was never about the lore, it was always the aesthetics. Don't try sugar coat it...
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  6. #9086
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    The compromise was already made with void elfs.
    Then you don't know what a compromise is.

    A compromise needs to be reached by both parties. It is not a compromise if one party goes "this is what we'll do regardless if you like it or not" which was the case of void elves: high elf supporters wanted the high elf race with all its lore, yet what they got was... exactly nothing they asked for. This wasn't "middle ground", at all.

    Most pro high elfers claimed it was always about the lore. The recent discussions about lighter customization's is proof it was never about the lore, it was always the aesthetics. Don't try sugar coat it...
    It is about the lore. But if Blizzard is not budging on that front, a fair-skin customization option for void elves is what can be called a... "compromise". Ever heard about that word? You should look it up, because you've shown that you don't know what its meaning is.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  7. #9087
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Then you don't know what a compromise is.

    A compromise needs to be reached by both parties. It is not a compromise if one party goes "this is what we'll do regardless if you like it or not" which was the case of void elves: high elf supporters wanted the high elf race with all its lore, yet what they got was... exactly nothing they asked for. This wasn't "middle ground", at all.


    It is about the lore. But if Blizzard is not budging on that front, a fair-skin customization option for void elves is what can be called a... "compromise". Ever heard about that word? You should look it up, because you've shown that you don't know what its meaning is.
    Yep... totally about the lore.

    Claims it's all about the lore, then in same breath says they'll settle for the aesthetic.... just...lol. You don't need to hide your hidden agenda anymore, it's quite clear it was always about the aesthetics.

    Oh and like it or not, the compromise was void elfs. Compromises never fully satisfy one party.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  8. #9088
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Yep... totally about the lore.

    Claims it's all about the lore, then in same breath says they'll settle for the aesthetic.... just...lol. You don't need to hide your hidden agenda anymore, it's quite clear it was always about the aesthetics.
    You continue to show you don't understand what context is, or you're purposely misusing it as you do in your post here, bolding the non-important context in which Ielenia made his post. Let me bold, italicize, and underline for you the actual important context of his last bit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It is about the lore. But if Blizzard is not budging on that front, a fair-skin customization option for void elves is what can be called a... "compromise". Ever heard about that word? You should look it up, because you've shown that you don't know what its meaning is.
    To me, Strippling, it sounds like you need an ELI5 of how the conversation has started moving toward some people discussing and being okay with/liking the compromise that would come from High Elf skins on Void Elves.

    It's super fucken late though for me, so I'll do that later.

    In the meantime, as said before: the people wanting High Elves are not a hive-mind, even within the pro-Helf group people have different opinions and wishes. This truly shouldn't be that hard at all to understand, but you have kept proving it wrong so...

  9. #9089
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    I'm confused at the fact that pro high elfers are so fixated on having "the real high elfs on the alliance" becoming playable, and dismissing the fact that blood elfs (who are high elfs) are already playable, yet in the same breath the pro high elfers seem to be okay with void elfs having lighter customization options... which goes against what they've been trying to "claim" this whole time. Most pro high elfers claim void elfs were a fail as an attempt to be a compromise, and commonly state "we want high elfs, nothing less". Wouldn't lighter skinned void elfs still be void elfs in your eyes? I thought you wanted "high elfs"? I thought RP'ing as one wasn't enough and you wanted to actually BE one? Well guess what, you'd still have to RP as an "alliance high elf" if you played a light skinned "void elf". Hence why I am confused. Do you want the lore or do you want the looks?

    In the words of typical pro high elfers claiming it's all about the lore, I would have thought the response to possible lighter customization's would have been negative from you folk. But alas, it is not, which verifies the claims many anti's made that the only reason people want high elfs is for the aesthetics.. and that is why I refer to the still valid comments made by Ion... the Horde is waiting for you.

    I understand anything is possible. High elfs are possible, but extremely unlikely. Lighter skin options for void elfs is also possibly, though again highly unlikely. I don't need to come to terms with these facts. But I can't help but sit here confused at the pro community who wanted high elfs for the lore but then now want the customization options (which (A) isn't the lore you wanted and attacked anti's for, and (B) would actually detract from what the void elfs ARE). Shallow requests (such as wanting the opposing factions aesthetics) will always receive shallow responses.

    One question I do have for you, how do you think Horde and Blood Elf players should feel if the lighter customization options are given to the void elfs? Given that the pro community profusely state that void elfs are purple blood elfs, not purple high elfs. Or do you not care about this? In which case don't act baffled when people dispute your "innocent" requests.
    An excellent summation of the hypocrisy some of the pro High Elfers are demonstrating when it comes to the possibility of 'High Elf like' customization for Void Elves. After all, a high elf like Void Elf is still a Void Elf, and anyone who supports this implicitly admits they are after the Blood Elf aesthetic and the lore is just a lie they tell because trying to get that aesthetic makes you look ridiculously shallow.

    Of course, the fact this is regarded as a live topic of discussion at all is mystifying. This was not a promise of anything. Afrasiabi did not suggest this by himself, nor was it a question he was briefed on in advance as Ion was during the April Q and A so that he could have an answer. It was the Lost Codex guys who brought it up. Had they brought up playable Ogres he likely would have provided an almost word for word exact response.

    Afrasiabi segued as quickly as he could into a response about forum behaviour, saying not to lose hope (because people without hope rage a lot more and tend to cause more drama) and to keep it respectful (which a lot of commentary hasn't been) which is more indicative of the dev team's opinion of those pushing the pro High Elf agenda on the forums than a promise for Void Elf customization. I mean he's a busy guy, he relies on the community team to summarise forum feedback for him (sending it to the devs) and if that's the impression he has of the pro High Elf community then that isn't promising.

    However, whilst high elf like customization for Void Elves is clearly possible in a way actual Alliance High Elves probably aren't, I agree with you it still likely won't happen. Skin tone differences are the most obvious difference between Blood Elves and Void Elves, so it would blur the lines between both which is something Blizzard has been at pains to avoid. Void Elf skin tones are a by-product of their transformation, and a High Elf like customization would likely be utilised by a majority of Void Elf players, undermining what Void Elves are by compromising THEIR unique aesthetic.

    And finally, High Elf like is not High Elf exact. It could very easily be another monkey paw result, with the skins genuinely being 'normalish' yet corrupted in some way by the void, which I am sure the pro High Elf crowd open to the idea of ruining Void Elves to get the aesthetic would find unacceptable. So if you just annoy the Horde and can't please the pro High Elf community, why bother doing it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    I have a feeling that Blizzard is intending to blur faction lines in the expansion after BfA. It is really based on nothing outside they are so focused on the war, introducing more races and stating it is for the last time. The line of "not wanting to blur faction lines" just seems to be thrown out there as a red herring.

    Again, it is how I feel based on the facts ... I don't believe it is going to happen, it just makes sense to be and I wouldn't be surprised if it did.
    Really? Because several years ago they were clear that the reason they felt neutral races don't work is because they blur the divisions between the factions. It's a funny kind of red herring when it represents a consistent design philosophy that has been held for over six years since the failure of their experiment with the Pandaren.

    If anything blurs the lines between the factions after BFA, it will be the loosening of the restrictions on who we group with in PVE content.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Yep... totally about the lore.

    Claims it's all about the lore, then in same breath says they'll settle for the aesthetic.... just...lol. You don't need to hide your hidden agenda anymore, it's quite clear it was always about the aesthetics.

    Oh and like it or not, the compromise was void elfs. Compromises never fully satisfy one party.
    Also true. A compromise does not have to be satisfactory. Void Elves are, for some, an unsatisfactory compromise, but that does not mean they are not a compromise. Unsatisfactory compromises occur all the time. The idea that a compromise has to please everyone is bogus, and the idea that the pro High Elf community is entitled to some kind of judgement role in agreeing if Void Elves cut the mustard is patently absurd.

    What Void Elves are is almost the product of arbitration, a third party empowered to resolve the differences between two sides. Blizzard is the third party, and they have the power as they are the owners of the IP. Void Elves are the compromise as the Alliance got the model, got thalassian elves, but divorced from the theme and aesthetics of a Blood/High Elf.

    Besides, Void Elves are the most popular Allied race (unless Zandalari have outstripped them since Tuesday), and that is the kind of the metric Blizzard really pays attention to.

  10. #9090
    Elemental Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Really? Because several years ago they were clear that the reason they felt neutral races don't work is because they blur the divisions between the factions. It's a funny kind of red herring when it represents a consistent design philosophy that has been held for over six years since the failure of their experiment with the Pandaren.

    If anything blurs the lines between the factions after BFA, it will be the loosening of the restrictions on who we group with in PVE content.
    You are wrong here, they have never outright rules out neutral races again. They released the problem with Pandaren wasn't because they were neutral but rather how they were implemented ... that is a key thing. They have constantly stated they are FOR neutral races if the story permits it ... you are continuing a lie, and you HAVE had this explained to you before ... you need to stop.
    Peace is a lie. There is only passion. Through passion I gain strength. Through strength I gain power.
    Through power I gain victory. Through victory my chains are broken. The Force shall set me free.
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  11. #9091
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    You are wrong here, they have never outright rules out neutral races again. They released the problem with Pandaren wasn't because they were neutral but rather how they were implemented ... that is a key thing. They have constantly stated they are FOR neutral races if the story permits it ... you are continuing a lie, and you HAVE had this explained to you before ... you need to stop.
    Actions speak far louder than words. And we still have words.

    We have one developer, Ghostcrawler, stating that they weren't fan of sharing Pandaren between both factions.

    We then several years later had Ion state the reason Alliance High Elves were rejected was because of concerns about blurring the lines between the factions, the same objection Ghostcrawler expressed several years earlier.

    We have a new system in Allied races that solves many of the issues a neutral race would also fix in terms of saving time and money. A neutral race required only a male and a female model, rather than double that to provide one race to each faction. Allied races solve that by allowing Blizzard to repurpose and reuse existing models, a far cheaper option that has allowed them to churn out eight new additions to the Horde and Alliance in the past year with several more maybe to come.
    A neutral race required only a single set of levelling zones, rather than two sets with one for each side. Allied races cut out levelling zones entirely by having the Allied Races start at level 20.

    And, critically, they have not ruled out adding Allied Races in future where they make sense whereas there has been no neutral race since Mists of Pandaria, and given the addition of so many new options in this expansion it is highly unlikely they will be adding a new option during the next one.

    Why would they add a new neutral race when they can simply use the Allied race system?

    And as for being implemented 'wrongly', how? The Pandaren were designed as neutral, implemented to both sides at the same time as netural, their entire storyline revolved around balance and neutrality. They had everything going for them in trying to make the concept of a neutral race work, but it didn't. The cost to faction diversity was too great. That is why they are likely to remain a one off experiment.

    And where have they stated they are for new neutral races if the story permits it? Have they stated this since Pandaria? Have they stated this since they created the Allied race system, rendering a large chunk of the justification for neutral races moot?

    Allied races eliminate a lot of the upsides a neutral race offered them and leaves mostly the downsides, the blurring of the factions they are consistently against.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-03-15 at 11:11 AM.

  12. #9092
    Elemental Lord Darththeo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Actions speak far louder than words. And we still have words.
    By your logic, pre-MoP would be evidence that neutral races wouldn't occur ... your logic is flawed.

    We have one developer, Ghostcrawler, stating that they weren't fan of sharing Pandaren between both factions.
    A person who is no longer employed by Blizzard, who also stated they didn't want to deny either faction Pandaren ... hardly evidence they won't do it again.

    And if it is evidence of anything, it is evidence that the devs are more concerned over story because they didn't want to deny that to one side of the war ... Ghostcrawler's statement isn't remotely evidence supporting your argument.

    We then several years later had Ion state the reason Alliance High Elves were rejected was because of concerns about blurring the lines between the factions, the same objection Ghostcrawler expressed several years earlier.
    Oh but this other dev stated that in Classic High elf was under consideration for playable but they went with gnome as the Alliance was already given one elven race ... the system changes. *note: This is pointing out your flaw in "Dev stated" ... while it is evidence, it isn't proof one way or another*

    We have a new system in Allied races that solves many of the issues a neutral race would also fix in terms of saving time and money. A neutral race required only a male and a female model, rather than double that to provide one race to each faction. Allied races solve that by allowing Blizzard to repurpose and reuse existing models, a far cheaper option that has allowed them to churn out eight new additions to the Horde and Alliance in the past year with several more maybe to come.
    A neutral race required only a single set of levelling zones, rather than two sets with one for each side. Allied races cut out levelling zones entirely by having the Allied Races start at level 20.
    Zandalari Trolls and Kul Tiran humans have significantly different models and animations from their base race ... clearly it isn't just going to be a surface change only. They could easily use the Allied race model to introduce a new neutral race too ... allied races are not evidence against neutral at all. I mean come on, this is completely irrelevant to this discussion as it does not negate the possibility at all nor does it support it. It is completely irrelevant.

    And, critically, they have not ruled out adding Allied Races in future where they make sense whereas there has been no neutral race since Mists of Pandaria, and given the addition of so many new options in this expansion it is highly unlikely they will be adding a new option during the next one.

    Why would they add a new neutral race when they can simply use the Allied race system?
    Literally just repeating yourself here.

    And where have they stated they are for new neutral races if the story permits it? Have they stated this since Pandaria? Have they stated this since they created the Allied race system, rendering a large chunk of the justification for neutral races moot?

    Allied races eliminate a lot of the upsides a neutral race offered them and leaves mostly the downsides, the blurring of the factions they are consistently against.
    Yes, they have stated it since and during MoP when asked about future neutral races. And the allied race system doesn't negate the possibility of more neutral races as you can have a neutral allied race.

    I can see the Vrykul being a neutral allied race due to their factions and has Kul tiran aren't actually that much smaller than a Vrykul the size shouldn't be a issue. So while the race is neutral, the faction will not be. The issue with Pandaren was more all Pandaren were one faction that split up without any lore reason besides well we have two different philosophies that players experience each while playing through. They could easily introduce a race or have a race splinter ... hell allied races have technically already did this with the elf swap.

    So here all you have is we only have Pandaren and that's it ... thus it is a failure with a complete non-related issue brought up that doesn't discount the possibility of a new neutral race.
    Last edited by Darththeo; 2019-03-15 at 11:27 AM.
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  13. #9093
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Actions speak far louder than words. And we still have words.

    We have one developer, Ghostcrawler, stating that they weren't fan of sharing Pandaren between both factions.

    We then several years later had Ion state the reason Alliance High Elves were rejected was because of concerns about blurring the lines between the factions, the same objection Ghostcrawler expressed several years earlier.

    We have a new system in Allied races that solves many of the issues a neutral race would also fix in terms of saving time and money. A neutral race required only a male and a female model, rather than double that to provide one race to each faction. Allied races solve that by allowing Blizzard to repurpose and reuse existing models, a far cheaper option that has allowed them to churn out eight new additions to the Horde and Alliance in the past year with several more maybe to come.
    A neutral race required only a single set of levelling zones, rather than two sets with one for each side. Allied races cut out levelling zones entirely by having the Allied Races start at level 20.

    And, critically, they have not ruled out adding Allied Races in future where they make sense whereas there has been no neutral race since Mists of Pandaria, and given the addition of so many new options in this expansion it is highly unlikely they will be adding a new option during the next one.

    Why would they add a new neutral race when they can simply use the Allied race system?

    And as for being implemented 'wrongly', how? The Pandaren were designed as neutral, implemented to both sides at the same time as netural, their entire storyline revolved around balance and neutrality. They had everything going for them in trying to make the concept of a neutral race work, but it didn't. The cost to faction diversity was too great. That is why they are likely to remain a one off experiment.

    And where have they stated they are for new neutral races if the story permits it? Have they stated this since Pandaria? Have they stated this since they created the Allied race system, rendering a large chunk of the justification for neutral races moot?

    Allied races eliminate a lot of the upsides a neutral race offered them and leaves mostly the downsides, the blurring of the factions they are consistently against.
    I'm going to call bullshit on that one since they added a pallete swap of blood elves and eventually indicated that they were open to an Aleria type customization for void elves. How much would you like that BTW? It is all a matter of whether they will have to demand.

  14. #9094
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    I'm going to call bullshit on that one since they added a pallete swap of blood elves and eventually indicated that they were open to an Aleria type customization for void elves. How much would you like that BTW? It is all a matter of whether they will have to demand.
    Call bullshit all you like, Void Elves are not High Elves. They used to be High Elves, but they aren't anymore. There is a level of difference between them and Blood/High Elves. Do I like it? Nope, but there IS a difference. Void Elves, and the Allied race system as a whole, are proof that they have deep misgivings about neutral races since the failure of the Pandaren experiment.

    And they didn't indicate anything on an Alleria type customization for Void Elves, that is simply the pro High Elf community reading waaaaay too far into Alex Afrisiabi's answer. All he said was 'there's always a chance'. Just as Ion has said in the past 'Anything is possible'. Now, clearly High Elf like customization for Void Elves is more possible than Alliance High Elves being their own thing, but we have no idea what form it could take. Assuming it's going to be like Alleria, or assuming you are going to be able to play a fair skinned blond haired blue eyed Void Elf is extremely dangerous and probably extremely wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by delus View Post
    I'm going to call bullshit on that one since they added a pallete swap of blood elves and eventually indicated that they were open to an Aleria type customization for void elves. How much would you like that BTW? It is all a matter of whether they will have to demand.
    It is BS, it's also not the whole truth, Ion saying that was in the context of us being in an expansion where the Faction War is being played up, aka at a time where they're trying to pit the factions against each other -> they want the released Allied Races to look more different than similar.

    This is not the same as "we're rejecting these guys because they blur factions", that would mean there'd never be a chance ever for High Elves to happen.

    Obelisk just likes to leave out context in order to make his opinion/beliefs seem more true than they actually are.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Now, clearly High Elf like customization for Void Elves is more possible than Alliance High Elves being their own thing, but we have no idea what form it could take. Assuming it's going to be like Alleria, or assuming you are going to be able to play a fair skinned blond haired blue eyed Void Elf is extremely dangerous and probably extremely wrong.
    Here is a great example of what I'm talking about. The bold shows both the poster and community at large don't know what form High Elf customization could take in Void Elves.

    Then the last sentence throws out that previous acknowledgement and immediately assumes thinking one of those two ways is "extremely dangerous and extremely wrong."

    "Yeah I acknowledge we don't know how it may be handled, But fuck it I'm going to assume these ways are not going to be and anyone who thinks so is wrong!"

    Is no one else by that type of logic?

  16. #9096
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Call bullshit all you like, Void Elves are not High Elves. They used to be High Elves, but they aren't anymore. There is a level of difference between them and Blood/High Elves. Do I like it? Nope, but there IS a difference. Void Elves, and the Allied race system as a whole, are proof that they have deep misgivings about neutral races since the failure of the Pandaren experiment.

    And they didn't indicate anything on an Alleria type customization for Void Elves, that is simply the pro High Elf community reading waaaaay too far into Alex Afrisiabi's answer. All he said was 'there's always a chance'. Just as Ion has said in the past 'Anything is possible'. Now, clearly High Elf like customization for Void Elves is more possible than Alliance High Elves being their own thing, but we have no idea what form it could take. Assuming it's going to be like Alleria, or assuming you are going to be able to play a fair skinned blond haired blue eyed Void Elf is extremely dangerous and probably extremely wrong.
    Ion said that but he already partially caved by giving void elves. My point is that they already gave away the model intact. So the last chips to fall would be skin and hair color. Even you must be nervous that they are close to giving in. That's why you are wasting your time frantically posting these long tirades. And notice they walked back on the no. Sure that may be taken out of context, but it means they are at least open to the possibility.

  17. #9097
    Has everyone forgot about Alleria?

    As it currently stands, she is the only void elf of her kind; to retain her original form but harness the power of the void.

    All playable void elves are the result of almost dying to the void and being saved by Alleria.

    It isn't inconceivable that Alleria would offer a safer alternative to those hoping to embrace the void and in turn retain more of their original elven form. Blizzard could still offer differences, such as "rips" in the skin where void shines through like tattoos or void options for eyes, etc.

  18. #9098
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    By your logic, pre-MoP would be evidence that neutral races wouldn't occur ... your logic is flawed.
    No, my logic does not indicate that and never did. Prior to MOP it was a topic of debate. After MOP and the failure to add any more neutral races I can say that, as they had an experiment to see if neutral races worked and it is clear they didn't/



    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    A person who is no longer employed by Blizzard, who also stated they didn't want to deny either faction Pandaren ... hardly evidence they won't do it again.
    What does it matter that he is no longer employed by Blizzard? When he said it, he WAS employed and in a senior development position.




    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    And if it is evidence of anything, it is evidence that the devs are more concerned over story because they didn't want to deny that to one side of the war ... Ghostcrawler's statement isn't remotely evidence supporting your argument.

    When he moved to Riot, he still answered questions regarding WoW , so I chanced my arm and asked him

    "wow question, forgive me 8). You once said Pandas reduced faction diversity, What did you think of high elf for alliance?"

    And the response I got was "What is more important: faction identity or more options for Alliance?"

    And the question he was asked in the original tweet regarding Pandaren was how did they feel about sharing them across the factions?

    And the failure to ever offer a neutral option again.

    And the fact that six years after Ghostcrawler's original comment about why Pandaren failed, another senior WoW development member restated faction diversity as the reason another race wasn't being made de facto neutral.

    So I fail to see how I am drawing an incorrect conclusion when I have a tweet from the early part of this decade explaining they weren't keen on making Pandaren cross-faction, a follow up tweet from that same individual in a post Blizzard role who elaborated specifically on High Elves that faction diversity was weighed against an extra option for the Alliance, and Ion Hazzikostas in both 2017 and 2018 citing faction diversity as the reason Alliance High Elves were rejected.

    One of us is attempting to peddle a narrative here, and it is yourself, attempting to argue that neutral races weren't rejected due to faction diversity concerns when we have several conversations spread across several years from two senior team members stating that is the case.





    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Oh but this other dev stated that in Classic High elf was under consideration for playable but they went with gnome as the Alliance was already given one elven race ... the system changes. *note: This is pointing out your flaw in "Dev stated" ... while it is evidence, it isn't proof one way or another*
    Source? I have heard conflicting reports on this over the years. I have heard some claim High Elves were never intended for classic at all. Besides, you are quoting something from WoW's earliest days when it was a purely creative sandbox without limitations. The problem with building an MMO as that as soon as it goes live, what you put in begins circumscribing what can follow. Just because Alliance High Elves were absolutely possible in classic does not mean they still can be. Hell, in classic the faction divide between the Alliance and Horde was introduced later in the process and that I do know for a fact. It was originally going to be like Everquest where everyone could group with everyone but you couldn't go to certain cities or near certain NPCs without triggering a reaction.

    WoW in 2011 was a much different beast, with the faction divide entrenched as part of the game's philosophy and Blood Elves a part of the Horde.



    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Zandalari Trolls and Kul Tiran humans have significantly different models and animations from their base race ... clearly it isn't just going to be a surface change only. They could easily use the Allied race model to introduce a new neutral race too ... allied races are not evidence against neutral at all. I mean come on, this is completely irrelevant to this discussion as it does not negate the possibility at all nor does it support it. It is completely irrelevant.

    Zandalari are referred to as 'the Highborne' of Trolls by Vol'Jin in the eponymous novel. They have stayed aloof from the other trolls for millenia, leading to certain physical differences. Kul Tirans have also been isolated from most of humanity for several millenia, leading to similar developments among some of their population. That or they are throwbacks to some interbreeding between the first colonists and the Drust. In both cases, THOUSANDS of years of separation. For Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves, we have just over ten. Not exactly the same.

    As for Allied races being evidence against further neutral races, you miss the point. Allied races fulfil some of the functions Blizzard was testing out with neutral races. Back in 2011 they were screaming over the art bottleneck, as anything new had to be built from scratch. New races needed two models of player standard, one for male and one for female. They need starting zones which had to be built by zone designers. They had to be filled with quests, taking up quest designer time. And all that was doubled for two new races, one per faction. The attraction of neutrality therefore is self-evident. They may not have wanted to deny anyone Pandaren, but they also got to halve their work.

    And yet the concept still failed due to the long term damage to faction diversity, despite the immense amount of time and labour they saved and which were directed elsewhere. Now look at the Allied race system, they can simply reskin existing skeletons and they don't need to build new zones at all by having them start at level 20. So some of the benefits of the neutral race system are bettered by the Allied race system, and the negatives of the neutral race option persist.




    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    Yes, they have stated it since and during MoP when asked about future neutral races. And the allied race system doesn't negate the possibility of more neutral races as you can have a neutral allied race.

    I can see the Vrykul being a neutral allied race due to their factions and has Kul tiran aren't actually that much smaller than a Vrykul the size shouldn't be a issue. So while the race is neutral, the faction will not be. The issue with Pandaren was more all Pandaren were one faction that split up without any lore reason besides well we have two different philosophies that players experience each while playing through. They could easily introduce a race or have a race splinter ... hell allied races have technically already did this with the elf swap.
    Hypothetically possible, but while hypothetically possible, why would they when they can relatively easily add two distinct races to the Horde and Alliance. Again you fail to explain why they would ignore their own stated concerns on faction diversity to do this?


    Quote Originally Posted by Darththeo View Post
    So here all you have is we only have Pandaren and that's it ... thus it is a failure with a complete non-related issue brought up that doesn't discount the possibility of a new neutral race.
    You are aware that the reason I ONLY have Pandaren as an example of the failure of a neutral race is that Blizzard accepted the idea was a failure and didn't add more? If they had added more, and thus provided more examples, it would be because they didn't think the concept was a failure and I wouldn't have been able to make this case to begin with.

  19. #9099
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverafter View Post
    Has everyone forgot about Alleria?

    As it currently stands, she is the only void elf of her kind; to retain her original form but harness the power of the void.

    All playable void elves are the result of almost dying to the void and being saved by Alleria.

    It isn't inconceivable that Alleria would offer a safer alternative to those hoping to embrace the void and in turn retain more of their original elven form. Blizzard could still offer differences, such as "rips" in the skin where void shines through like tattoos or void options for eyes, etc.
    No one's forgotten about Alleria, and you're absolutely right about how the first Void Elves that are playable came to be, it's just those opposing High Elves don't want to acknowledge why Void Elves have the skin tones they do currently vs Alleria.

    Then even some believe that recruitment of more Void Elves are happening and not realizing the way to recreate the current Void Elves is through an interrupted process that almost took away their life. If more are being recruited now, then the process itself would have to be different from the get-go.

    Why the fuck would Alleria subject them to the same one that almost took away their lives and caused agnoy? It doesn't add up but that's because the "anti-helf" peeps are using skewed logic in order to keep Alliance players from having access to High Elf customization/playable race. That's all it really boils down to.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    What does it matter that he is no longer employed by Blizzard? When he said it, he WAS employed and in a senior development position.
    So was Tom Chilton when he spoke of how the community reacted to Draenei introduction into the game and how going forward they'd seed in new races before dumping them onto players.

    - Years Pass - Tom Chilton no longer in the position he was before, and Void Elves release out of nowhere just like how Draenei did before.

    I'm SURE Blizzard thought long and hard about Chilton's words from back then when he was a higher up before making the Void Elf choice

  20. #9100
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Yep... totally about the lore.

    Claims it's all about the lore, then in same breath says they'll settle for the aesthetic.... just...lol. You don't need to hide your hidden agenda anymore, it's quite clear it was always about the aesthetics.
    Strippling, do yourself a big favor and stop responding. The more you respond, the more you publicly humiliate yourself.

    Go get a book, or access the Wikipedia page or any other online dictionary like Collins Dictionary or Cambridge Dictionary and educate yourself in the meaning of the word compromise.

    I just find it incredibly amusing how dishonest you are as you bolded two parts of the last paragraph in my post... yet completely fails (intentionally, in my opinion) to notice the nine words in between those bolded parts that completely destroy and pulverize your attempt at pulling a strawman.

    Oh and like it or not, the compromise was void elfs.
    No, it's not a compromise.

    Compromises never fully satisfy one party.
    Again, educate yourself in the meaning of the word 'compromise'. It's not about "fully satisfying", it's about reaching a middle ground, which void elves, as per their current iteration, absolutely fail to do.

    You know how Void Elves would actually be a compromise? Imagine this scenario instead of what we got for void elf recruitment:

    Alleria Windrunner: "Champion. I've received word from the Silver Covenant, and it's troubling news. In light of my dealings with the Void, some high elf magisters of the Kirin Tor decided to do their own research into the Void. They have relocated out of Dalaran to avoid putting the city in danger in case something went wrong. And, it seems, something happened: communication between Dalaran and the magisters ended abruptly a few weeks ago. Seeing how I have experience dealing with the void, Veressa asked me to investigate the matter. I would like you to accompany me."
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2019-03-15 at 03:52 PM.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

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