Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Varx]

Look guys, we can go back and forth till the end of time cuz obviously no amount of logic and reasoning can trump the ego and pride of a hard core helfer.

However, there is one glaring bump in the road that they refuse to acknowledge due to this being a high elf thread, or at least that's what been said to me.

If high elves were a thing then wtf would the horde counterpart be? Green eyed night elves? Undead night elves? The latter cant even happen since all undead nelves are dark rangers so that leaves us with jack shit.

As if adding helves as an AR isn't redudant from a playable race perspective, there isnt a single decent option for the Horde. But hey, the delusional dream continues untill the last expansion.

[Ielenia]

But I'm gonna give you a chance to rectify your statement.

I don't need to rectify anything because the intent and meaning of my statement is clear to everyone. You simply decided to nitpick on the figure of speech.

[Garfurion]

The Alliance High Elves believe the best interests of their people and the Kingdom of Quel'thalas are served through the Alliance. They likely believe their people are scapegoating the Alliance and are holding them unfairly responsible for what happened during the Scourge Invasion.

Interesting, that is pretty much what Lyria Skystrider and Priest Ennas , two Blood Elves living in Silvermoon say before they are mind-controlled:

"My brothers and sisters. Listen to me. We must speak of the survival of our people. We have narrowly survived one calamnity, but I fear the next shall destroy us.

Can you not see what is happening? Open your eyes. It is laid bare for all to see. What is this new alliance? Why have we betrayed our allies of old, only to take up with the enemies of all that live?" -- Lyria Skystrider

"You fool! The prince's minions were the very Forsaken we have now allied ourselves with, and now he has betrayed us." -- Priest Ennas

The scene makes it clear that there are/were Blood Elves who were opposed to Quel'Thalas joining the Horde instead of the Alliance.

The Blood Elves believe that the Alliance, which they never truly believed in given they were the last to join and the first to leave, betrayed them, first during the Scourge invasion, then when Garithos sentenced their Prince to death and finally through their lack of understanding towards the methods they had adopted to sustain themselves without the Sunwell. As a result, they have rejected the Alliance and out of necessity, believe the Horde to be a stronger vehicle for their people's future.

If this is all true then why would Lor'Themar have ever entered into negotiations with Varian Wrynn about rejoining the Alliance back in MoP.

It also doesn't explain why Ranger Lord Hawkspear and High Priestess Skycaller from Quel'Lithien lodge were/are High Elves when they were effectively Blood Elves when Kael'thas renamed his people and before the Blood Elves even joined the Horde.

So the political division is precisely that. The faction divide itself. Alliance, or Horde.

Valeera Sanguinar , a Blood Elf, seems to disagree with that notion:

"I am neither Horde nor Alliance. What has either faction ever done for me?"

and she even works for the High King(s) of the Alliance:

"My loyalties are personal-- To King Varian and to his son".

There are also plenty of other examples of "neutral" Blood Elves such as those who are members of the Kirin Tor, such as Aethas Sunreaver (after rejoining) or the Scryers who still answer to the Naaru first and formost.

Clearly the faction divide can therefore not be the defining difference between Blood Elves and High Elves since there are too many examples opposing it.

As stated in the still canon Warcraft Encyclopedia the "crucial" difference between High and Blood Elves is how they decided to deal with their addiction after the destruction of the Sunwell:

"Blood elves no longer truly consider themselves high elves, and they tend to have different priorities and behaviors than their high elf kindred. Unlike high elves, blood elves have decided that in the absence of the Sunwell, they will feed their hunger for arcane magic by draining that magic from alternative sources."

"A crucial difference between high elves and blood elves is that no high elves have decided to feed their hunger for arcane magic by draining that magic from alternative sources (now that the Sunwell is useless). Even today, though, a high elf might still succumb to that addiction and become one of the blood elves."


Note that the Sunwell was restored only a few years ago in Azerothian time so almost all High and Blood Elves alive today, except the very young, made this fundamental moral/lifestyle choice.

The High Elves of Quel'Lithien lodge like Renthar Darkspear for instance had been Farstriders and thus Blood Elves after Kael'thas renamed his people but were exiled for refusing to drain living beings out of principle, not because of a political affiliation with the Alliance.

"Five years we rot here, thrown out of our homes at your behest because we refuse to suck
magic from living things like vampires." -- Renthar Darkspear, In to the Shadow of the Sun

Unlike the faction divide the "crucial difference" described in the Warcraft Encyclopedia does seem to apply to all High and Blood Elves currently in the game.

If we take the split between High and Blood Elves due to the "crucial difference" described in the Warcraft Encyclopedia as a decisive moment in time then even their offspring born after the restoration of the Sunwell can easily be classified into either of the two groups.

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Besides, questions about magic discipline again segue into the faction divide, in that the Horde is more tolerant of it's members experiments with magic than the Alliance is, something which clearly suits the Blood Elves.

I think Horde is more magic oriented with the Blood Elves and Nightborne but I think the Alliance might be the more tolerant faction when it comes to magic now that they have the Void Elves.

[Ielenia]

Thank you for explaining further.

I think there's more to it than "A) They don't care, or B) They misunderstand the request." Perhaps a little bit of both, but I definitely think there's more to the story.

While I do not think very highly of Blizzard's analytical side in recent years, I'd like to think there's pro-Alliance and pro-Horde people working within the Warcraft team. I believe you and I can agree on that. I think it's very likely at some points that they both contribute ideas to one another, especially in the realm of balancing races between the factions.

I believe they did exactly as you described. Since they clearly aren't interested in giving you the High Elves, because the majority of their race evolved into what is known as Blood Elves presently, I believe they sought to seek a compromise that used the Thalassian model, since High Elves and their lore were never up for grabs in the first place. They needed something unique, something with an obvious contrast to Blood Elves. Blizzard has, after all, said numerous times in their opinion there aren't enough High Elves left to support a playable race. That is what has been said officially, and is not my personal opinion.

Therefore I conclude, that in the interest of the clamor for High Elves, they compromised with a variant of Blood Elves to give the Alliance a semblance of a High Elf. Did they fail miserably? Absolutely. If I played Alliance I'd be upset, too.

But back to my original point, you claimed they weren't a compromise, in which I believe they were under the circumstances I outlined above.

But it's not a good compromise. At best, is one done in very bad faith. Because, like I pointed out, they could have easily have replaced the blood elf researchers with high elves, and it would still be as you said: "an unique, obvious contrast to the blood elves", since high elves already already an obvious contrast to blood elves, but not aesthetically unique, as-is. The 'void elf' treatment would fix that, and make them the perfect "unique, obvious contrast.

Nothing would change about the current relationship to other races. Magister Umbric could still dream of uniting the Thalassian elves under the Alliance's banner, Lor'themar Theron could still despise them as 'traitors', etc.

There was absolutely no reason, whatsoever, to not make the void elves be high elves, instead of blood elves. And there are many reasons to make them high elves.

[Strippling]

It's similar to those who ask for Ogres or Alterac Humans for Horde, except there's been more instances in WoW of High Elf NPCs aiding the Alliance than Ogre or Alterac Human NPCs aiding the Horde.

The high elfs have almost always aided the alliance on behalf of the Kirin Tor throughout WoW. They have rarely aided the Alliance on their own accord. This faction war is a perfect example of that... where are the high elfs? Practically non-existent this expansion... cause why? The leader of the Kirin Tor wants no part in this war, and subsequently the high elfs who are associated with the Kirin Tor are not taking part in it either. Ogres on the other hand have aided the Horde on their own accord...so funnily enough they're actually more associated with the Horde than high elfs are with the Alliance. On top of that, the void elfs are aiding the Alliance more than the high elfs... so stop acting like the high elfs are such a core group to the alliance... they really are not. Their allegiance broke during WCIII and any alliance between the Stormwind alliance and the high elfs comes second to their allegiance to the kirin tor.

It's dishonest to pretend it is a compromise.

It's not pretending. Allied race system was the perfect opportunity to introduce playable high elfs. High elfs were not given and instead void elfs were... please explain to me why void elfs were given in place of high elfs?? I'd really like to hear your explanation that void elfs weren't an effort at a compromise.

Alliance players asking for high elves never said "we want the blood elf model on Alliance" they always asked for the High Elves shown around the Alliance.

They always asked for "high elfs on the Alliance" but funnily enough are now saying "but we'll settle for light skinned options for void elfs" (which is the blood elf model).

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Exactly.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Canticle_of_Sacrifice

The song commemorating the death of Varian Wrynn is in Thalassian. A beautiful thalassian song played in Stormwind.
High elves are a core Alliance race, and will stay so.

Where are they in this faction war? You'd think any group "core" to the Alliance would be actively participating in this war?

Alas, the high elfs are virtually non-existent during this war...why? Cause their allegiance is first and foremost to the Kirin Tor... who want no part in this war.

[Garfurion]

There was absolutely no reason, whatsoever, to not make the void elves be high elves, instead of blood elves. And there are many reasons to make them high elves.

I think the reason to make them former Blood Elves (a Horde race) is because according to Blizzard Nightborne are similar to Night Elves (an Alliance race).

"And the other cool thing is the Nightborne allow the Horde to play something that is similar to the Night Elf, and the Void Elves allow the Alliance to play something that's similar to a Blood Elf. So, that's kind of a, swapping of the factions where you get to experience the other factions." -- Shani Edwards

Blizzard probably wanted to be as balanced about this as possible but ended up annoying both Horde players (who "lost" NPCs) and Alliance players (who didn't get transformed/evolved High Elves ). Blizzard being lazy enough not to give Void Elves their own mesh unlike Nightborne probably doesn't help either.

[Ielenia]

I think the reason to make them former Blood Elves (a Horde race) is because according to Blizzard Nightborne are similar to Night Elves (an Alliance race).

"And the other cool thing is the Nightborne allow the Horde to play something that is similar to the Night Elf, and the Void Elves allow the Alliance to play something that's similar to a Blood Elf. So, that's kind of a, swapping of the factions where you get to experience the other factions." -- Shani Edwards

Blizzard probably wanted to be as balanced about this as possible but ended up annoying both Horde players (who "lost" NPCs) and Alliance players (who didn't get transformed/evolved High Elves ). Blizzard being lazy enough not to give Void Elves their own mesh unlike Nightborne probably doesn't help either.

That still is not a good reason, exactly because we have high elves that are "similar to a blood elf".

[elbleuet]

Where are they in this faction war? You'd think any group "core" to the Alliance would be actively participating in this war?

Alas, the high elfs are virtually non-existent during this war...why? Cause their allegiance is first and foremost to the Kirin Tor... who want no part in this war.

They're actually involved in Stromgarde. And Alleria, who's basically a high elf mastering the void is found helping the Alliance in both Lordaeron and Kul'Tiras.

And tell me why is a thalassian song played in Stormwind. Is there a human song played in Orgrimmar or Silvermoon ? I don't think so.

[DeicideUH]

It's not pretending. Allied race system was the perfect opportunity to introduce playable high elfs. High elfs were not given and instead void elfs were... please explain to me why void elfs were given in place of high elfs?? I'd really like to hear your explanation that void elfs weren't an effort at a compromise.

It may have been an effort at a compromise, but in no way it ended up a fair compromise.

It goes way beyond looking blue. Void elves literally came devoid of lore. There was no effort at all of seeding the race of making it appealing to high elves in any way, shape or form. There's no way one can deny void elves weren't shoddly and hastly done near the end of Legion, lacking any of the care that nightborne or highmountain tauren got. They ended up even more devoid of lore than lightforged draenei, which is also a horribly implemented race. If one wants a compromise, then it should at least have put true effort and passion into it. Blizzard instead painted some blood elves blue, added stupid tentacle hair, brought up a tiny group of them out of nowhere and made the most thinly veiled excuse of a storyline to back it up, on par with some of the worst non-porn fanfic that there can be. Then left them as it is, for over a year, without bothering to flesh them out further.

That's not a fair compromise at all.

[Darththeo]

Look guys, we can go back and forth till the end of time cuz obviously no amount of logic and reasoning can trump the ego and pride of a hard core helfer.

And the anti-helfers are being no more logical.

However, there is one glaring bump in the road that they refuse to acknowledge due to this being a high elf thread, or at least that's what been said to me.

So you need the reply directed to you ... noted.

If high elves were a thing then wtf would the horde counterpart be? Green eyed night elves? Undead night elves? The latter cant even happen since all undead nelves are dark rangers so that leaves us with jack shit.

All KNOWN raised Night Elves are Dark Rangers ... but that wouldn't prevent them from adding them.
Some people have suggested Alterac Valley Humans (Main Played Race for Main Played Race).
Prior to BfA, there were people suggesting Dark Iron for High Elves ... obviously that can't happen.
"Redeemed" Man'ari Ereder ... the red fel skin Draenei.
Feral Worgen (No Human Form) however it is highly unlikely.

The Undead Night Elves and Man'ari Eredar are my personal favors.

As if adding helves as an AR isn't redudant from a playable race perspective, there isnt a single decent option for the Horde. But hey, the delusional dream continues untill the last expansion.

Technically all allied races are "redundant" ... so just pointing anything dealing with Allied Races being redundant is beyond pointless.

[Strippling]

They're actually involved in Stromgarde. And Alleria, who's basically a high elf mastering the void is found helping the Alliance in both Lordaeron and Kul'Tiras.

Literally a tiny handful found in Stromgarde, that's it. Pretty much none to be seen in the war campaign, questing during the war, battle for lordaeron, war of thorns or battle for Dazalor (forget how to spell it). Void elfs on the other hand appear in most of the aforementioned instances.

Also, pro high elfers state that a key factor that separates high elfs from blood elfs is their avoidance of "bad magic". Alleria "went to the dark side"... what makes her a high elf anymore? Unless of course you agree that the ONLY difference between a high elf and blood elf is their political view? Otherwise, according to pro high elfer logic Alleria is no longer classified as a high elf... and more fits the bill of a void elf.

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It may have been an effort at a compromise, but in no way it ended up a fair compromise.

That's not a fair compromise at all.

Key word there is "effort". You cannot deny that void elfs were purposefully introduced as an effort to comprise. The compromise was giving the Alliance the Horde model, but making it different enough to avoid blurring faction lines and detracting from the Horde identity as much as practicable.

Whether the compromise is satisfactory to players or not, it doesn't matter. It still was, at the end of a day, a compromise that Blizz decided internally. Some players asked for high elfs, Blizz discussed it and decided faction identity was more important than the Alliance getting a nigh-extinct group (high elfs) in which the main society of this race is currently already playable on the Horde.... so they ended up with void elfs as the middle ground between both parties.

And so you know, I agree with you in that they could have done a better job of introducing void elfs (more build up and back story would have been nice).

[DeicideUH]

It still was, at the end of a day, a compromise that Blizz decided internally.

No. A compromise is:

1. an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.
2. settle a dispute by mutual concession.
3. accept standards that are lower than is desirable.

Something is only a compromise if both sides accept it. Trying to compromise is not the same thing as reaching a compromise.

[FlubberPuddy]

Hm? First time I hear of such a thing. What Ion supposedly said off-the-mic?

Here you go dude, form your own conclusions.



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Should change the topic to High Elf Discussion Super Megathread now

Or is that at 500 pages?

This is probably still not the longest running thread in the forums.

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I think the reason to make them former Blood Elves (a Horde race) is because according to Blizzard Nightborne are similar to Night Elves (an Alliance race).

"And the other cool thing is the Nightborne allow the Horde to play something that is similar to the Night Elf, and the Void Elves allow the Alliance to play something that's similar to a Blood Elf. So, that's kind of a, swapping of the factions where you get to experience the other factions." -- Shani Edwards

Well, at the very least, this shows they're not adverse to having a "swapping of the factions" so to speak. Aka they don't seem against adding the other faction's races to the other, despite how some here like to profusely say they have a "faction barrier they're trying to maintain."

[Strippling]

No. A compromise is:

1. an agreement or a settlement of a dispute that is reached by each side making concessions.
2. settle a dispute by mutual concession.
3. accept standards that are lower than is desirable.

Something is only a compromise if both sides accept it. Trying to compromise is not the same thing as reaching a compromise.

1. the agreement or settlement of a dispute was reached between internal sides within Blizzard. You talk as if the pro high elf community ever had a vote in this decision. It's Blizzards game, they decide the compromises.
2. Again, likely happened within Blizzard. The pro or anti community have no say in this.
3. Well that's up to you to accept the less than desirable outcome or not.

Blizzard employees have been quoted to say that they don't always agree on certain things internally. As such, it's acceptable to assume that they likely discuss or "debate" topics such as high elfs internally. At some point a decision was made (internally) in which both the WoW developers FOR high elfs (acting and behalf of the pro community) came to a compromise with the WoW developers AGAINST high elfs (acting on behalf of the anti community), resulting in the now void elfs. The compromise was made by Blizzard, just because you don't accept the compromise doesn't mean it wasn't a compromise.

Please remember that requesting high elfs is a request that directly impedes on the Horde identity, given that the main high elven society is a CORE horde race and is already playable. So, no, you're not getting a core horde aesthetic and thematic without some changes to maintain faction identity, which is an integral part of the game.

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Well, at the very least, this shows they're not adverse to having a "swapping of the factions" so to speak. Aka they don't seem against adding the other faction's races to the other, despite how some here like to profusely say they have a "faction barrier they're trying to maintain."

Hang on hang on hang on. I've seen you dismiss Ion's comments time and time again, but then cling onto any other developer or CM comments that suit your agenda. Double standards?

[delus]

Please remember that requesting high elfs is a request that directly impedes on the Horde identity, given that the main high elven society is a CORE horde race and is already playable. So, no, you're not getting a core horde aesthetic and thematic without some changes to maintain faction identity, which is an integral part of the game.

Does core race really have any meaning at all when there are allied races that surpass them in terms of popularity? All core race really means is that you have more customization options, you don't have a quest to unlock them and you select them on a different screen.

[DeicideUH]

1. the agreement or settlement of a dispute was reached between internal sides within Blizzard. You talk as if the pro high elf community ever had a vote in this decision. It's Blizzards game, they decide the compromises.
2. Again, likely happened within Blizzard. The pro or anti community have no say in this.
3. Well that's up to you to accept the less than desirable outcome or not.

Blizzard employees have been quoted to say that they don't always agree on certain things internally.

Then it's their own problem and we couldn't care less about a deal made without us in mind. We will keep asking for a better compromise for us.

[Obelisk Kai]

I get an error message. The site doesn't come up.

Ironically it seems the website was down when you checked. https://ibb.co/6tHJFZT

When he made the comment, he was no longer employed by Blizzard meaning HIS opinion is just that, HIS opinion and I don't see any reason to value HIS opinion anymore than YOUR opinion or MY opinion on the issue. I don't care if he agrees with you, it's meaningless. Just because you don't accept this rationale doesn't make it not cogent.

When he made the original comment, he was employed by Blizzard. The response he made to made was he thoughts on that comment, in the context of the time period it was made, relevant to High Elves. Had their been movement towards Alliance or another playable shared race since, you would have a case that what he said could be disregarded given that Blizzard would have clearly moved past it. But given Blizzard has instead doubled down, with another senior game director several years later saying another proposed race was rejected on the grounds of faction diversity, you can draw a line from 2011 to 2017 and 2018 and from that see their intent.

Key word: substantial. That is an opinion level ... the differences to the devs and you it is substantial, but to void elves themselves are not substantial. The view is base purely on opinion on what they feel is different enough ... for example, I don't see a hugely significant difference in the culture of High Mountain Tauren vs Regular Tauren and their main difference is basically horns. The rest of the customization there is no logic reason Tauren couldn't have as well. So the level of "substantial" for the devs seems to have a various levels depending on the race in question. What is substantial for one race, but be not for another.

I think you are misusing what I meant by the word 'substantial'. When I said 'substantial', I meant the differences between Blood Elves and Void Elves are tangible. The differences between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves are not tangible, as opinions are not tangible, and it is political opinions which divide them. In every other respect, Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are identical.
You bring up Highmountain Tauren and Mulgore Tauren and say their differences aren't substantial. Which can be true from a certain point of view. But the critical differences are that, firstly, there are tangible differences. Visually you zero in on the horns, and the distinction between Bull and Moose those horns represent is something. Secondly, there is the lore rationale behind those horns, that Highmountain Tauren gained them from the blessing of Cenarius which is something Mulgore Tauren lack. Thirdly, there is the fact that Mulgore Tauren and Highmountain Tauren are on the same faction. As such, there immense similarities do not damage the integrity of the Horde or the identity of the Tauren. In fact, it is the faction divide that really undermines your use of the Tauren races as a comparison. They didn't have to be designed with the faction wall in mind. Void Elves and Nightborne were, to contrast them as much as possible with their parent races of Blood/High Elves and Night Elves. And, of course, Tauren and Highmountain Tauren still have differences. Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves do not save political opinion.

Thanks for proving that point for me. You can't make wide judgments based on a single data point. You are acting like that is the only way you can make a neutral race.

Incorrect. We cannot make a judgement on the possibility of what a neutral race might be if none have ever been implemented in the way you suggest. But we can make a judgement on what a neutral race actually is. And it isn't just a sole data point. It is several, each time Blizzard has introduced an Allied race is an additional data point. The Nightborne are the most pertinent, they easily could have been added as a neutral race for both the Alliance and Horde and Blizzard went out of their way not to do it that way.

Because there is zero evidence of them being not viable. No one on the dev team has ruled them out. Their history supports that they value story over a lot of other things. If a story they wish to tell involves a neutral race, we'll get one. The devs have zero reason to pretend it is still a possibility if they have no plans to potentially do it ... they could come out and state "Neutral Races don't work" or something to that level. They have no problem borderline putting down someone's opinion, so I see no reason to state it is impossible or nearly so.

Your assertion that nobody on the dev has ruled them out only works if we ignore the developers who have expressed the view that sharing races undermines faction diversity.
And their history does not show they value story over a lot of other things. Gameplay has, and always will, trump story for them and they are quite happy to retcon something if the plot gets in the way, the Eredar being the most famous example.

Except all those races were planned prior to BfA even launching that we have now.

They didn't "decide" on a race during BfA ... it is likely they have the allied races for BfA laid out early. There could be changes, but there is no evidence besides switching Mag'har for Zandalari. These races currently were pre-planned from the start ... one opportunity, not more.

While I myself believed that, it turns out they were on the fence about Kul Tirans until late in the development cycle of BFA due to the amount of work Kul Tirans would take. Once they realised they could do Kul Tirans but not in time for launch, they moved Mag'har Orcs up to 8.0 and pushed Zandalari Trolls back to 8.1.5.

This also suggests another Alliance race was either cut to make room for Kul Tirans in 8.1.5 or has been moved into a future patch. There was a level of fluidity in Allied race choice I did not expect, but which confirms Allied races were not all selected early and not at the same time. That the Allied races are set now however is likely correct.

Which they have stated Allied races will be paired, but that doesn't mean non-neutral allied races are impossible either (it could be one faction recruits the race earlier than the other). They also stated they won't come out at the same time always (which so far they have).

Again, this is an appeal to the purity of the argument. The hypothetical point that IF they wanted to, they could. Which is true. I am instead arguing why they likely won't due to the downsides.

Again, it is story driven. You seem to ignore that it is the story they want to tell. As for the Mecha Gnomes, I tend to avoid spoilers that come out ... but is that Dungeon/questline even on the PTR yet?

As I said earlier, story has always bowed to gameplay and they have made no bones about that. If they wanted to add a neutral race, nothing is stopping them. After all, they write the story and if they needed it to add a neutral Allied race, it would do so. But saying 'it is story driven' completely dodges this point which I will now ask for a third time.

" If the faction wall is such a barrier to adding shared races, why was the only neutral race in WoW's history added in during a full scale faction war? The faction war is no barrier to neutral races as Pandaren proved, their own philosophical differences saw some attracted to the Alliance and others to the Horde. And it's not as if the opportunity hasn't arisen since.
Both Alliance and Horde adventured with the Nightborne and helped them out, providing an unassailable lore rationale for that particular race to be added as neutral. Blizzard went out of their way to lock the Nightborne to the Horde, I am sure you recall the forums posts complaining about it from a year and a half ago."

As for Mecha Gnomes they will be on the PTR that may launch as soon as later today. Given the level of complexity and variety of the models shown at Blizzcon, their addition as an Allied Race seems inevitable. We know that both Alliance and Horde will work with them in Mechagon to gain access to the Mega-dungeon, but if they are added as an Allied race they will almost certainly go to the Alliance despite their initial neutrality. This will be a second case of both sides working together with a group and that group opting for one faction over the other, when it could have been plausibly written that they could go neutral.

And as the Pandaren proved, a raging faction war is no barrier to such a shared race.

I am starting to believe you like using big words to make it sound like you have more than a point than you do. And btw, the preponderance of the evidence of neutral races is inconclusive ... there isn't really enough to go off of one way or the other. You haven't demonstrated anything other than you have convinced yourself you are correct.

There is a lack of evidence regarding neutral races because they only added one neutral race and several devs have stated reasons why they felt neutrality was a failure. This is a chicken and egg and response. If there were more neutral races to provide more data, then Blizzard wouldn't have judged them a failure and we wouldn't be having this discussion. The existence of only a single data point is in itself damning.

The fact that there is only a single example of a shared race added to the game, and several examples of where Blizzard has gone out of their way to NOT add any more (Nightborne not going neutral, Void Elves instead of Alliance High Elves) is in itself plentiful evidence.

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Interesting, that is pretty much what Lyria Skystrider and Priest Ennas , two Blood Elves living in Silvermoon say before they are mind-controlled:

"My brothers and sisters. Listen to me. We must speak of the survival of our people. We have narrowly survived one calamnity, but I fear the next shall destroy us.

Can you not see what is happening? Open your eyes. It is laid bare for all to see. What is this new alliance? Why have we betrayed our allies of old, only to take up with the enemies of all that live?" -- Lyria Skystrider

"You fool! The prince's minions were the very Forsaken we have now allied ourselves with, and now he has betrayed us." -- Priest Ennas

The scene makes it clear that there are/were Blood Elves who were opposed to Quel'Thalas joining the Horde instead of the Alliance.

Probably were rather than are, Silvermoon is frozen in game as the Silvermoon of ten years ago. A lot has happened since. Despite that, the majority of the crowd they were trying to convince were hostile to these two individuals. And I haven't seen such pro Alliance rhetoric from any Blood Elf since.

If this is all true then why would Lor'Themar have ever entered into negotiations with Varian Wrynn about rejoining the Alliance back in MoP.

Easily. The entire Horde was falling apart, this was not just the Blood Elves throwing a strop. The Trolls were in revolt, the Forsaken openly hostile and the Tauren were backing the Trolls. Lor'Themar was exploring options because of the situation they were in and this, at the time, might have seemed like the lesser of two evils. Until the purge of Dalaran reminded the Blood Elves of why they left the Alliance. Remember Lor'themar's words?

" When will they learn? When will they see that the Horde exists BECAUSE of the Alliance? Because of their prejudice and their bigotry!?"

Rommath, who has always been pro Horde, seals the deal subtly

Grand Magister Rommath says: My Lord. YOU would make a fine Warchief.

I have always seen this sequence of events as being written with the players in mind, specifically the group that continued to insist the Blood Elves being on the Horde made no sense, mostly because the events that led them to the Horde took place in a previous game or in other material such as the books or online information. The events of Mists of Pandaria were a way of teaching some players why the Blood Elves are with the Horde, and the purge closed off the path towards the Alliance. Rommath made Lor'themar realise they were bound to the Horde forever as long as the Alliance exists, by insinuating the best path for them at that particular point was not to leave the Horde but to seize control of it. Which was sort of realised when Vol'Jin replaced Garrosh and Vol'Jin was a far better leader than Garrosh.

It also doesn't explain why Ranger Lord Hawkspear and High Priestess Skycaller from Quel'Lithien lodge were/are High Elves when they were effectively Blood Elves when Kael'thas renamed his people and before the Blood Elves even joined the Horde.

Easy again, they reclaimed the title High Elf when they were exiled but they must have named themselves Blood Elves for a time while following the Prince. Just another indicator that political opinion is the sole dividing point, especially as they remained separate following the well's restoration and the resolution of the original point of contention.

Valeera Sanguinar , a Blood Elf, seems to disagree with that notion:

"I am neither Horde nor Alliance. What has either faction ever done for me?"

and she even works for the High King(s) of the Alliance:

"My loyalties are personal-- To King Varian and to his son".

Valeera is a young Blood Elf who grew up in Quel'thalas. It seems she is truly disinterested in politics or the dispute between her people, whether the Blood Elves or those more vocal in their allegiance to the Alliance. As such, I would argue she simply isn't bothered by labels and that her primary loyalty is to the Wrynn family.

There are also plenty of other examples of "neutral" Blood Elves such as those who are members of the Kirin Tor, such as Aethas Sunreaver (after rejoining) or the Scryers who still answer to the Naaru first and formost.

The Scryers were stuck on Outland and were separate from the main body of their people when Quel'thalas opted to join the Horde. Remember, the thalassians renamed themselves not to spite the Alliance but to honor those they had lost and as such the Scryers were Blood Elves before they became associated with the Horde. In fact, as part of Kael's army, they would have served with the Alliance. They functioned as an independent entity for the duration of their stay. If they have since returned to Silvermoon following the conclusion of the Outland campaign, they would now be Horde citizens.

The point about the Kirin Tor and Dalaran opens a can of worms of course, as what applies to the Sunreavers also applies to the Silver Covenant. I think we had a long debate over that. Suffice to say, my personal opinion is that the neutrality of the Silver Covenant and Sunreavers was a fig leaf. They were highly partisan, everyone knew it, but they had to maintain the appearance of neutrality for the sake of their Dalaran home.

Clearly the faction divide can therefore not be the defining difference between Blood Elves and High Elves since there are too many examples opposing it.

As stated in the still canon Warcraft Encyclopedia the "crucial" difference between High and Blood Elves is how they decided to deal with their addiction after the destruction of the Sunwell:

The Warcraft encyclopedia is still canon and I have used it myself when citing the population argument, but it is still canon as of a certain moment in time. For example it says Alliance High Elves aren't organised, when they currently are within the Silver Covenant. That does not make the Warcraft Encyclopedia wrong, or that it was retconned, only that it was true of the moment in time in which it was written. As such, the philosophical dispute over how to deal with their addiction was resolved years ago, leaving only the political.

"Blood elves no longer truly consider themselves high elves, and they tend to have different priorities and behaviors than their high elf kindred. Unlike high elves, blood elves have decided that in the absence of the Sunwell, they will feed their hunger for arcane magic by draining that magic from alternative sources."

"A crucial difference between high elves and blood elves is that no high elves have decided to feed their hunger for arcane magic by draining that magic from alternative sources (now that the Sunwell is useless). Even today, though, a high elf might still succumb to that addiction and become one of the blood elves."


Note that the Sunwell was restored only a few years ago in Azerothian time so almost all High and Blood Elves alive today, except the very young, made this fundamental moral/lifestyle choice.

And that was the initial point of divergence. But that initial point of divergence has been resolved. Currently it is the faction divide that defines the division. Remember, the encyclopedia is true as of the time it was written, this is why information on population is still valid. But certain other facts have been superseded by events.

If we take the split between High and Blood Elves due to the "crucial difference" described in the Warcraft Encyclopedia as a decisive moment in time then even their offspring born after the restoration of the Sunwell can easily be classified into either of the two groups.

Yet they are clearly Blood Elves. A Blood Elf is a High Elf because the Blood Elves have redefined what a High Elf is i.e. a Blood Elf. A lot of what you say is focused on the initial point of divergence, how to deal with their addiction, and much of it is true. But as I have stated repeatedly, that initial point of divergence is gone. And without it what is left?

Only the faction divide and political opinion.

I think Horde is more magic oriented with the Blood Elves and Nightborne but I think the Alliance might be the more tolerant faction when it comes to magic now that they have the Void Elves.

The Horde is undoubtedly the Arcane powerhouse with Quel'thalas and Suramar as members. Only Dalaran would provide magical heft to balance the scales, and despite their clear leanings they are still neutral.
As for the Void Elves, I don't get that feeling at all. I felt Umbric during the War campaign was overly obsequious, desperate to prove his value and the value of his people to an Alliance that clearly distrusts them. They know they are walking on eggshells. Frankly I think they are only in the Alliance because Alleria vouched for them.

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Then it's their own problem and we couldn't care less about a deal made without us in mind. We will keep asking for a better compromise for us.

I think it's very much a You problem rather than a them problem. You fail to appreciate they really had one shot at doing such a compromise, because they result would massively complicate any further attempt.

Whilst we focus a lot of the impact of playable Alliance High Elves on the Blood Elves, and have done so for many years now, that is no longer the only group at risk. Like them or not, Void Elves are a thing with their own fans and players and they are deserving of respect too.
You have had little respect for the Void Elves, as I recall you were one of the individuals heavily pushing for the 'compromise' of normal skin tones on Void Elves and hence one of those who has implicitly admitted you have no interest in the lore, only the aesthetic. Despite this, and your thinking only of yourselves (a better compromise for us with your own added emphasis)they deserve not to be shoved out of their niche as the thalassian elves of the Alliance to make way for a duplicate of a Horde race.

[Garfurion]

And that was the initial point of divergence. But that initial point of divergence has been resolved. Currently it is the faction divide that defines the division.

The Sunwell was restored at the end of TBC so according to you after TBC only the faction divide defines who is a Blood Elf and who is a High Elf.

How do we then define neutral elves like Valeera Sanguinar, the Scryers and Dalaran merchants such as Arille Azuregaze, Fialla Sweetberry, Ildine Sorrowspear, Karandonna or Narisa Redgold ?

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Well, at the very least, this shows they're not adverse to having a "swapping of the factions" so to speak. Aka they don't seem against adding the other faction's races to the other, despite how some here like to profusely say they have a "faction barrier they're trying to maintain."

They did give them different themes and skins/models though (although that is also true for in-faction Allied races such as Dark Iron and Zandalari) so it wasn't a direct race copy. I also wouldn't expect them to do this often.

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Alleria "went to the dark side"... what makes her a high elf anymore?

Word of God. Ion Hazzikostas calling her a High Elf in the live developer Q&A of April 26 2018

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The Warcraft encyclopedia is still canon and I have used it myself when citing the population argument, but it is still canon as of a certain moment in time. For example it says Alliance High Elves aren't organised, when they currently are within the Silver Covenant. That does not make the Warcraft Encyclopedia wrong, or that it was retconned, only that it was true of the moment in time in which it was written. As such, the philosophical dispute over how to deal with their addiction was resolved years ago, leaving only the political.

In the live developer Q&A of April 26, 2018 Ion reiterated that the back story of Blood Elves in terms of their relationship with magic and the Sunwell makes them different from High Elves. He never said they had different political opinions!

"So uh basically Blood Elves kind of are High Elves with slightly different eye color, different back story in terms of their relationship with magic and the Sunwell" -- Ion Hazzikostas

The difference in back story with regard to magic and the Sunwell is of course the "crucial difference" described in the canon Warcraft Encyclopedia and according to Word of God this difference is still relevant (unless they changed their stance in the last year).

[elbleuet]

Literally a tiny handful found in Stromgarde, that's it. Pretty much none to be seen in the war campaign, questing during the war, battle for lordaeron, war of thorns or battle for Dazalor (forget how to spell it). Void elfs on the other hand appear in most of the aforementioned instances.

Ugh...Yea and ? Alliance pandaren are nowhere to be seen either...

Also, pro high elfers state that a key factor that separates high elfs from blood elfs is their avoidance of "bad magic". Alleria "went to the dark side"... what makes her a high elf anymore? Unless of course you agree that the ONLY difference between a high elf and blood elf is their political view? Otherwise, according to pro high elfer logic Alleria is no longer classified as a high elf... and more fits the bill of a void elf.

Since you treat Ion like a living god, he already said Alleria was a high elf.
Thus a high elf was instrumental in saving the Alliance armies and its High king in Lordaeron. Not bad for a dying race.

[Obelisk Kai]

The Sunwell was restored at the end of TBC so according to you after TBC only the faction divide defines who is a Blood Elf and who is a High Elf.

How do we then define neutral elves like Valeera Sanguinar, the Scryers and Dalaran merchants such as Arille Azuregaze, Fialla Sweetberry, Ildine Sorrowspear, Karandonna or Narisa Redgold ?

Valeera is a Blood Elf not interested in politics, so she hasn't bothered to declare herself a High Elf. Her loyalty is to the Wrynn family.

We really have no evidence for what became of the Scryers after the end of TBC. With Illidan and Kael defeated and the dream of a new homeland in Outland shown to be false, the logical next step is to go home and I am sure many did.