Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[DeicideUH]

Valid point, I agree with you. Void elfs could have been given more attention prior to becoming an AR...however, isn't this even more evidence that Blizzard aren't willing to blur faction lines... that fact that they'd introduce void elfs out of nowhere in place of high elfs who have been around previously (albeit very low in number). You cannot deny that Blizz feels high elfs would hurt faction identity, as the high elven culture and life has progressed via the Blood elfs. This is why Blizz and many players are opposed to the idea of playable high elfs... their story has moved on... their story is now the blood elf story.

Blizzard could have made high elves different while keeping them true to their story. There were lots of ideas in the internet on possible ways to do so. There were even dangling plot threads in the lore that would allow them to do so (Storm-stave of Antonidas, anyone?). They had the entirety of Legion to seed a proper story. Poor quality and carelessness shouldn't be acceptable in the name of "faction identity".

[Strippling]

This makes no sense, how can "high elfs" not be happening, and then also "having a debate over a race that is already playable" both be correct? It's one or the other man, can't have something not happen if they already exist. Can't be debating over something already playable if they're not happening.

You talk of others being flip-floppy and then are doing it yourself. Just like how I pointed out it's not just pro-helfers who are sometimes toxic, but also anti-helfers too.

Thanks for correcting me, I should have said "Alliance aligned high elfs" not happening.

[Garfurion]

Just to piggyback off this. https://twitter.com/warcraft/status/...564352?lang=en

"Nope! Alleria is a High Elf. "

So they have always considered her a High Elf.

Nice find

[Strippling]

Blizzard could have made high elves different while keeping them true to their story. There were lots of ideas in the internet on possible ways to do so. There were even dangling plot threads in the lore that would allow them to do so (Storm-stave of Antonidas, anyone?). They had the entirety of Legion to seed a proper story. Poor quality and carelessness shouldn't be acceptable in the name of "faction identity".

Most of these "ideas" weren't true to who "high elfs" are. For example, the whole woodland elf theme.... that's not who the high elfs are, and additionally the night elfs already fill that niche.

And maybe Blizzard didn't seed a proper story (in your words) because the high elfs aren't really a people anymore and are literally just a broken fragment of a society that has moved on (via the blood elfs). They are also intermixing and dwindling away, as Elisande pointed out. So there's not much left to "seed a proper" story with. And that's another issue on its own, the story IS and SHOULD be seeded via the blood elfs, who ARE the high elfs of WoW

[elbleuet]

The blood elves are Horde Thalassian elves, not high elves, and the void & high elves are Alliance Thalassian elves.
And 3 half-elves isn't what I call a dilluted bloodline.

[Garfurion]

Blizzard could have made high elves different while keeping them true to their story. There were lots of ideas in the internet on possible ways to do so. There were even dangling plot threads in the lore that would allow them to do so (Storm-stave of Antonidas, anyone?). They had the entirety of Legion to seed a proper story. Poor quality and carelessness shouldn't be acceptable in the name of "faction identity".

They could also have transformed the entire Silver Covenant into Void Elves thereby effectively removing the largest High Elven group from the lore.

[DeicideUH]

They could also have transformed the entire Silver Covenant into Void Elves thereby effectively removing the largest High Elven group from the lore.

The problem is how to do it without feeling forced. The void is not just another power source.

Most of these "ideas" weren't true to who "high elfs" are. For example, the whole woodland elf theme.... that's not who the high elfs are, and additionally the night elfs already fill that niche.

So what? The nightborne have nothing that the blood elves didn't have. If the Horde can have night elves with blood elf affinities, why can't the Alliance have "blood" elves with night elf affinities?

ALso, the woodland themes are very high elven. Blood elves moved away from their farstriders and embraced magic more than ever. Go to any guard in Silvermoon and ask about mage, hunter and paladin trainers and see how each is described. The high elves are what the blood elves shunned.

They are also intermixing and dwindling away, as Elisande pointed out.

And that makes them unique. It's part of their theme. It's the kind of difference that can be explored to make them stand apart.

So there's not much left to "seed a proper" story with.

There's a lot to see a proper story. It's foolish to say otherwise. Legion itself had plenty of opportunities for that.

And that's another issue on its own, the story IS and SHOULD be seeded via the blood elfs, who ARE the high elfs of WoW

Blood elves are not high elves. Different paths that are getting further apart as time goes.

[Strippling]

So what? The nightborne have nothing that the blood elves didn't have. If the Horde can have night elves with blood elf affinities, why can't the Alliance have "blood" elves with night elf affinities?

Since the city was first separated from the rest of the world over 10,000 years ago, they are no longer true night elves and have evolved by the Nightwell into a unique elven species

Horde don't have night elfs, they have a new species of elf. Blood/High elfs on the other hand are not separate species, they are the exact.same.race.

ALso, the woodland themes are very high elven. Blood elves moved away from their farstriders and embraced magic more than ever.

Wrong.

The Farstriders are an elite group of blood elf rangers active in Quel'Thalas. They are led by the Ranger-General of Silvermoon, Halduron Brightwing, who succeeded Sylvanas Windrunner after the Third War. The Farstriders are based in Silvermoon City, but they have several camps and lodges scattered all across Quel'Thalas. They are considered part of the blood elf government.

If anything, the woodland theme would also belong to the BLOOD ELFS, given that they majority of farstriders are blood elfs (Horde high elfs). So again, giving the woodland theme to "Alliance high elfs" would detract from Blood elfs who have the majority of farstriders, and furthermore detract from the night elfs who already fill the woodland niche.

And that makes them unique. It's part of their theme. It's the kind of difference that can be explored to make them stand apart.

Again, wrong. See my above comment.

There's a lot to see a proper story. It's foolish to say otherwise. Legion itself had plenty of opportunities for that.

Yet nothing came of it, suggesting that there really isn't much of an Alliance high elven society to form a story around.

Blood elves are not high elves. Different paths that are getting further apart as time goes.

Blood elfs are high elfs, I don't know how you could possibly think otherwise. Or is a Chinese who moved to America no longer Chinese?

[elbleuet]

Cmon, high elf is a name, not a nationality.

If you rename yourself Orange instead of Blueberry, you would like to be called Orange instead of Blueberry.

Blood elves aren't High elves anymore because they're corrupted, and not Alliance affiliated, but they're still Thalassian elves. Because nowadays, a High elf is an Alliance, uncorrupted Thalassian elf.

Not a single blood elf call himself "Horde High elf" (lol) or high elf, that's for a reason.

[DeicideUH]

Wrong.

The Farstriders are an elite group of blood elf rangers active in Quel'Thalas. They are led by the Ranger-General of Silvermoon, Halduron Brightwing, who succeeded Sylvanas Windrunner after the Third War. The Farstriders are based in Silvermoon City, but they have several camps and lodges scattered all across Quel'Thalas. They are considered part of the blood elf government.

If anything, the woodland theme would also belong to the BLOOD ELFS, given that they majority of farstriders are blood elfs (Horde high elfs). So again, giving the woodland theme to "Alliance high elfs" would detract from Blood elfs who have the majority of farstriders, and furthermore detract from the night elfs who already fill the woodland niche.

Interesting that you conveniently forgot, and even removed the part of the quote that asked you check the opinions of in-game NPCs.

Blood elfs are high elfs, I don't know how you could possibly think otherwise. Or is a Chinese who moved to America no longer Chinese?

Are the people of Taiwan chinese, then?

Not a single blood elf call himself "Horde High elf" (lol) or high elf, that's for a reason.

Yes. It's part of the blood elf identity to renounce being high elves. And all the important blood elf NPC refer to high elves as a separate group they don't belong to.

"We are no longer high elves" was said by Kael'thas himself when he renamed his people.

[FlubberPuddy]

Yes. It's part of the blood elf identity to renounce being high elves. And all the important blood elf NPC refer to high elves as a separate group they don't belong to.

"We are no longer high elves" was said by Kael'thas himself when he renamed his people.

When Blood Elf players refer to themselves as "High Elves" it shows they're not playing the character for the lore, but rather just the looks. Which is funny, because that's what they tend to accuse of those wanting playable High Elves.

[Strippling]

When Blood Elf players refer to themselves as "High Elves" it shows they're not playing the character for the lore, but rather just the looks. Which is funny, because that's what they tend to accuse of those wanting playable High Elves.

This gave me a good laugh! Thanks @FlubberPuddy

p.s I hope your studies are going well

p.s.s I still don't agree with you though

[elbleuet]

High Elf is a race. Now considered a political faction of a few that cling to desperation of a bygone era.

So high elf is a race but blood elf is a name ? Are you kidding me ? Elf IS the race.

But it does not fundamentally change you from being a Blueberry. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

No one denied it. Blood elves and High elves are all from the same race. What's your point ?

There is no corruption in simply being a Blood Elf, as it is simply a name.

Or you can simply deal with your fel/light infused eyes.

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Yes. It's part of the blood elf identity to renounce being high elves. And all the important blood elf NPC refer to high elves as a separate group they don't belong to.

"We are no longer high elves" was said by Kael'thas himself when he renamed his people.

Also this.

[nyc81991]

The reality is High Elves exist, they have been in the Alliance and Blizzard loves putting them all over the place.

High Elves should have been a playable race for the Alliance for a long time now and Ogres should have also been playable for Horde in the same way.

[Darththeo]

I wish that Void Elves came from being a renegade group of Blood Elves and some High Elf group trying to get Quel'thalas back into the Alliance and that meeting had been disrupted by something causing the group transported to the area in the recruitment quest. It could be a blood elf considering an object they found or something. While there that being attempted to corrupt the Elves while Alleria and the player character go to save them. The group is free and renames themselves Void Elves due to the change.

So in this story, Void Elves aren't just former Blood Elves, but rather former Blood Elves and High Elves.

[Obelisk Kai]

First of all, whether she is interested in politics doesn't matter since according to your definition all Blood Elves are part of the Horde, and she isn't.

Second, canon lore, like the book Stormrage (which takes place well after the restoration of the Sunwell), states she is a Blood Elf:

"Indeed, other than Varian Wrynn and young Valeera Sanguinar —a blood elf rogue, of all things—Hamuul was perhaps the night elf’s closest friend." -- Stormrage

Therefore she is a Blood Elf who is not part of the Horde and thus faction doesn't define if an Elf is a Blood or a High Elf.



Word of God stated in 2015 when asked if the Scryers answer to Lor'themar that:

"Both the Aldor & the Scryers still answer to the Naaru first & foremost." -- WarcraftDevs on twitter.

which means that they were still alive and neutral as of 2015 (during WoD) so well after the restoration of the Sunwell.

Definitely some food for thought. Fair enough, I concede the point that the Scryers are still active and not participating in the faction conflict.

They have absented themselves from the political situation on Azeroth. They were there at the moment when Kael declared that the High Elves were now the Blood Elves. They accompanied Kael as part of the Alliance resistance in Lordaeron. They then escaped to Outland. They adapted to Illidan's teaching of feeding off the mana of other creatures. Events led them to pledge their service to the Naaru and Shattrath. In summary, they are Blood Elves from the point the Thalassians became Blood Elves and have remained Blood Elves throughout all their trials and tribulations, but were not present in Quel'thalas at the point of divergence between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves. The Scryers seemingly have found their calling in life in Shattrath.

Yet the point of divergence, over the philosophical question of how to sate the addiction, was resolved with the restoration of the Sunwell. The Scryers never faced that question as they were already fully committed to the Prince when they made the choice to partake in mana tapping. The Elves remaining on Azeroth did and sorted themselves accordingly. Valeera clearly mana tapped, which is why she is a Blood Elf. With the restoration of the Sunwell then, what is left? What defines both groups.

I think you have made a good case to prove the Blood Elves are not defined by their political allegiance to the Horde. The Scryers, Valeera Sanguinar and Blood Elf NPCs who are part of factions such as the Twilight's Hammer or the Shadow Council support this.
But what I think you haven't done is made a good case that Alliance High Elves are not defined by their political allegiance to the Alliance. I believe every thalassian that still calls themselves a High Elf is a member of the Alliance after all, either pro-actively or as a part of the heavily partisan Silver Covenant within Dalaran.

So I do correct my assertion. Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves are not divided by a political opinion alone. Alliance High Elves are divided from Blood Elves by their political opinion which is their defining trait.

Word of God. Ion Hazzikostas calling her a High Elf in the live developer Q&A of April 26 2018

He did indeed call her a High Elf.

But he also said Void Elves are another flavour of High Elf in the Jessie Cox 2017 interview.

And there is also this.

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=253233...cast-transform

So unless we start arguing that she is a High Elf when the ability is off and a Void Elf when it is on, it is best to say Alleria is unique and complicated. She maybe a High Elf, but she is also a Void Elf and the Void Elf racial leader.

[Dastreus]

Just give void elves a high elf skin tone.

[FlubberPuddy]

This gave me a good laugh! Thanks @FlubberPuddy

p.s I hope your studies are going well

p.s.s I still don't agree with you though

You're welcome and thank you, my studies are doing alright. Upcoming exam next week, have a whole week to utilize for studying. Busy busy semester!

Lol disagreements are okay. I'm assuming the people still posting here just like to debate. I know I find it fun at times.

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I don't think the high elves of Quel'lithien considered themselves part of the Alliance. Some of the older Kirin Tor high elves may also still be High Elves but not Alliance or Silver Covenant members like Ari is. The high elves of Quel'Danil are not members of the Alliance, they are just allied with the Wildhammer and don't seem affiliated with the Silver Covenant either (note that the Draenei in post-Cata Quel'Danil are listed as ambassadors)

Yup. Main thing is that there are High Elves that are either neutral or aligned with the Alliance. But no High Elf who is part of the Horde. And there are no Blood Elves that refer to themselves as "the true High Elves" because denouncing that nomenclature is part of the Blood Elf identity. Unless someone can provide proof that Blood Elves see themselves "the true High Elves" or "the evolution of High Elves" then it's player headcanon until then.

And I will continue to say, anyone saying "but they're still high elf race" (which technically it can be less confusing if everyone used Thalassian which Blizzard has used as their defining elf type - but I digress here) it doesn't matter.

A Mag'har Orc is still an Orc race, but that doesn't mean a Green Orc who is also still an Orc race is going to refer to themselves as a Mag'har Orc. Because they are not part of that nomenclature anymore.

People are just getting very intensely confused, or intentionally so, because Blizzard decided to name a group of high elves, "High Elves" as well. And most people can get easily confused by this, as can be seen many times in this thread alone.

[Obelisk Kai]

So the clarification is really just stating the same thing again, but doesn't actually answer anything.

The clarification is pretty clear, shared races harm faction diversity. Which is obvious, of course they do. In a game where the factions are predicated on race, the more identical options they have the less diverse they become.

Technically, none of it is "tangible." The question is "Is this different enough?" ... the answer is different depending on the goal with the race. There is no hard fast rule and it seems more based on what the devs feel at the time.

You are attempting to quantify absolutes. Are they different or are they not? It's a very simple proposition with a yes/no answer. Are Void Elves different from Blood/High Elves? Yes. Are Highmountain Tauren different from Mulgore Tauren? Yes. Are Blood Elves different from Alliance High Elves? No, they are not.
And yes I am sure you have a list of minute, insignificant details you can cite as to why that is wrong but just take it as a given I consider them minute and insignificant.

Every time you stated I am incorrect, you go out of your way to show that doesn't make sense to state that. And no, it is a sole data point ... pretending you have more data than you do is your problem. We have one neutral race, that's it. The additionally non-neutral races are a non-factor that you like pretending is a factor. Those races were never planned at any point to be neutral (to our knowledge) so acting like they count as data is dishonest at best.

You keep insisting the fact we only have one neutral race to extrapolate from and the lack of data that results is somehow detrimental to my case. This doesn't make sense. My case is that the reason we only have one neutral race is that they decided after the experiment shared races harm faction diversity and so have no real desire to add more. The lack of data because of one shared race actually supports my argument because if they considered it a mistake they are hardly going to make more.

You are ignoring that that was also part of the story they want to tell. But, yeah, totally just gameplay in that decision /sarcasm

Eh? They changed the backstory of the Eredar because they wanted the new Alliance Draenei race to make sense. Gameplay trumped lore. This is one of the most famous retcons in Warcraft history after all, there is not getting around why they did what they did.

Source? As for the quotes, that isn't how I read them.

One of the recent interviews prior to the 8.1.5 PTR. And if anyone else who reads this thinks I am wrong, or has a link to the interview in which they revealed Kul Tirans weren't confirmed until later in development, feel free to PM me or reply. But this is relatively common knowledge now Dartheo, if you missed it it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Sctually that doesn't remotely suggest that at all. It doesn't follow, that is a non sequitur. Just because they can move things around and have, doesn't mean the plan wasn't there.

If Kul Tiran were not confirmed until late, they must have had something else in mind for 8.1.5 had they decided against Kul Tirans.

There are also upsides to it and one thing they have shown if they feel it that the upsides will outweigh the down, they do it. Again, I am not arguing for now they'll do it.

The upsides were saving time and money in building new models and a newbie garden. It halved the time they had to spend on a very intensive part of the job and as they discussed a lot back then, the art team was under tremendous pressure and likely still is as the game's development bottleneck. The Allied race system removes most of those upsides by allowing them to reskin existing rigs and skip building newbie gardens. And as Kul Tirans show, if they are minded, they will create a brand new rig within the Allied race system.

You said it, but you are wrong about it.

Gameplay has always trumped lore. Blizzard has been retcon happy for quite a while in it's service. This was part of the reason they created the chronicles, to tidying the entire thing up. That project also contained a mass of retcons. If Lore was as sacred as you are insinuating, a project like Chronicles would never have been needed as they wouldn't have played so fast and loose with the source material and that source material would have been better defined.

Do you have a better response than 'You are wrong'?

It is because your question is irrelevant.

If the question is irrelevant, does that mean you are now going to stop claiming they can't add shared races due to the faction war? Because as you can see, the one data point we have shows that claim to be flat out wrong. This is how you prove someone wrong by the way, you provide an example proving it to be the case.

Do we know the Horde "works" with them? I haven't heard anything, so I can't say. For all we know, the Horde is there to mess with them.

We don't know yet. All we have is supposition and the fact they help us get into the Mechagon dungeon. But I will concede they are not the best example given we don't yet know. This however doesn't undermine the earlier and very pertinent Nightborne example.

Stating it is "plentiful" doesn't actually make that true. It is enough for you, it doesn't mean it is actually enough. You are acting like you have more data than you do ... you bring up MoP. There are significant differences in the war during MoP and the War during BfA ... how they are choosing to tell the story is huge, they are focus more on the faction divide here, recruiting allies, while MoP was more about the fighting of the war over a new found continent. It is a different kind of war story, so in the current story it doesn't make sense for a neutral race.

I'd say four rounds of race addition and not one shared race is pretty plentiful. And in Void Elves we of course have the race Blizzard went out of their way to twist so as not to offer a duplicate of an existing playable race.

The faction war in MOP was a faction war, same as the one in BFA. Attempting to pretend it was of a substantially different character than the one we are currently fighting is funny, particularly given the memes and complaints over how the war we are fighting now seems to be repeating the earlier conflict almost step for step. Crazy warchief, an Alliance city destroyed, a global war, sailing to new lands and finding new allies...after all the Hozen and Jinyu could have been Allied race candidates had the system been in place during MOP. Ditto the Yaungol and Saurok. War is war. Alliance and Horde are killing each other. And attempting to quantify one conflict as substantially different in character from the other so that one allows neutral races and the other doesn't strikes me as unbelievably silly and an attempt to evade the one logical conclusion regarding your assertion...that you are wrong.

Hell, it could be the fact that they realized that Pandaren make the war story more problematic is the reason why they don't announce a neutral race during the next one. You look at the facts, add irrelevant ones and claim you made a decide argument. A lot of your argument relies on your own view as a fact, but you can't see that because you feel you aren't.

No, we have developers stating that undermining faction diversity is a problem, with Ion stating that in 2017 and 2018 and Ghostcrawler stating in back in 2011 after Pandaren launched. A shared race by definition reduces faction diversity. Why invent reasons as to why neutral races haven't happened when Blizzard has pretty much told us why since?

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I don't think the high elves of Quel'lithien considered themselves part of the Alliance. Some of the older Kirin Tor high elves may also still be High Elves but not Alliance or Silver Covenant members like Ari is. The high elves of Quel'Danil are not members of the Alliance, they are just allied with the Wildhammer and don't seem affiliated with the Silver Covenant either (note that the Draenei in post-Cata Quel'Danil are listed as ambassadors)

They are friendly to the Alliance and hostile to Horde, and that was true to Blood Elf players in TBC. Even if not officially part, they are aligned. Technically the Silver Covenant isn't Alliance aligned, but a part of neutral Dalaran.

[kappalol]

Are people still butt hurted because Alliance didnt get High elves? And with void elves chances for high elves are close to 0?