Looks like you don't have to wait for guard day anymore
Looks like you don't have to wait for guard day anymore
"I guess only blood elves feel like the odd man out for the Horde. I hope that we've engineered that into it as deftly as we could, but you know, it's the equivalent of a bunch of white chicks hanging out with goblin or tauren. It's weird." -- Chris Metzen
A few points. Instructor Malicia could have sided with the Cult before the destruction of Quel'thalas. The Cult of the Damned was after all active in the pre war period under Kel'Thuzad's leadership.
Franzahl's loyalty is not clear. His quest text implies that he has been away from home for a very, very long time and was not involved in the events that led to the Blood Elf-High Elf split.
These first two are however, just two individuals and we cannot confirm or deny whether they were involved in the initial split.
As for Telestra, her biography makes clear she served Dalaran prior to throwing her lot in with Malygos and addressing the High Elves of Dalaran will cover her as well.
The question becomes the neutrality of the High Elf citizens of Dalaran. How is that perceived?
To which I offer this video in evidence.
https://youtu.be/6UOh2-yCymw?t=66
This video is the conversation between Anduin and Jaina while Jaina still led the Kirin Tor during Mists of Pandaria.
The critical line, played over an image of an Alliance High Elf in a Silver Covenant tabard and a Blood Elf Sunreaver is 'The Sunreavers still operate in this city. Alliance and Horde work together'.
I have often argued that the Silver Covenant and the Sunreavers were technically neutral owing to Dalaran's neutrality. Yet the key word many miss is 'technically'. Everyone and their mother knew both factions were highly partisan towards their respective factions, with even Jaina describing their joint efforts as Alliance and Horde working together.
So the Silver Covenant is Alliance. What about High Elf Mages within the Kirin Tor? Well, many of those are also it seems flagged as Silver Covenant. And the Sunreaver Mages who were a part of the Kirin Tor were not seen as separate from the Horde or the Sunreavers in general when Jaina went on her post Divine Bell rampage.
High Elf shopkeepers and merchants? Again, respect for the neutrality of merchants did not extend to the Blood Elven population who were robbed, murdered and imprisoned during the purge of Dalaran, which Jaina reported to Varian as the removal of the Horde from Dalaran. If those civilians were seen as Horde, then it follows the High Elven civilians would be seen as Alliance. Nor can we be certain they have lived there for a very long time. Whilst we know the city was evacuated prior to it's destruction in the Third War, it does not automatically follow that the High Elf population sat in a field waiting for the city to be rebuilt. We know some went with Jaina to Kalimdor and probably died at Theramore. We know a lot of the Mages must have gone back with Kael to Quel'thalas, because where else would the Sunreavers have come from?The Sunreavers were identified by Jaina as the same group who taught Humanity magic millenia earlier during the Troll Wars. Aethas said Jaina had no right to turf him and his people out of a city they had as much right to call home as anyone else. In the moment, that didn't matter. The Sunreavers were Horde. Some High Elves remained with the Kirin Tor, but not enough that they were ascribed the role of having taught humanity magic as the Sunreavers were. Is it not likelier that the High Elf merchants of Dalaran are refugees who made the political choice to live there, in the haven for their kind Veressa created?
Alliance High Elves are almost exclusively associated now with Dalaran. It is why they show up when Dalaran is involved, not because Blizzard likes taunting people with Alliance High Elves but because what remains of the Alliance High Elf population lives there and are part of the Dalaran 'kit'. And what defines them but that rejection of what their people have become? Their political choice to remain in opposition and aligned to the enemies of their people.
In many ways your example of the Scryers has been helpful. They too are a group of thalassian elves living in a distant city, following a different path to the majority of their people. But the critical difference is that they are not politically opposed to the path most Blood Elves are on, whereas the Alliance High Elves are.
Alliance High Elves are an antagonistic, Alliance aligned version of the Scryers.
I am afraid I have not reconsidered this particular point. Whilst your post has given me a lot of food for thought, I think the fundamental point remains. Alliance High Elves are divided from Blood Elves by a political opinion and that defines them. Where you have aided me is the realization that being a member of the Horde is not the definitive aspect of being a Blood Elf, being a thalassian elf is. Blood Elves after all are High Elves, the High Elf redefined, so the definition of a Blood Elf must encompass them all, the Horde aligned super-majority, the separate Scryers in Outland, the various traitors in smaller organisations and even the renegade political faction that is the Alliance High Elf. Even Alleria, who is complicated, expressed shock at the news that Sylvanas led the Horde because of what the Horde did 'to our people'...how much more shocking would it have been for her to learn moments later in private that her people had joined that very same Horde.
As for eye colour, that passage to me proved that as thalassian elf eye colour is mutable dependant on what energy source is either in proximity or fed upon, that it cannot be used as a differentiating factor. Some Blood Elves heavily involved with the Arcane should be able to manifest blue eyes. Alliance High Elves should, under deeply unfortunate circumstances involving over exposure to fel, be able to manifest green. Both groups,as they feed upon the restored Sunwell, should be able to manifest yellow. As it is mutable, it is not a defining characteristic. I do not believe Blood Elves have a closer relationship with the Sunwell than the Alliance High Elves, I propose that the Elves who ARE manifesting yellow in game are primarily those who use light magic the most, Paladins and Priests. This has likely accelerated their adoption of golden eyes. Butany class save Demon Hunters can display golden eyes, even Warlocks, shows that it is an effect not limited to those light wielding classes. Alliance High Elves will, in the fullness of time, manifest those eyes too. As will probably every thalassian elf not anchored to the void. There are just a lot less light wielders among them, being primarily hunters or mages.
Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-03-21 at 04:58 PM.
That's better. Not all blood elves are part nor support the Horde, as shown in Silvermoon, Telogrus with Blood elves ready to work with Umbric & Alleria and the void elves thing.
I think it would be interesting to see how void elves see their void and bloody brethren.
Last edited by elbleuet; 2019-03-21 at 04:56 PM.
How's it dishonest? It's a factual point. It indicates that the actual playable races in the Alliance are more core to the Alliance than the high elf community make them out to be. Both gnomes and pandaren have been more present and active in this faction war than high elfs have. I made that point to reemphasize that majority of alliance aligned high elfs serve the Kirin Tor first and foremost.
Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen
No, it is dishonest because it has nothing to do with high elves being part of the Alliance or not. You're basically saying "this feature that shows only unlocked playable races of the Alliance does not show the high elves who are not a currently playable race, therefore the high elves that is not a currently playable race are not an Alliance race."
I mean, FFS, I'll repeat this: the troop recruitment feature will not give you Lightforged Dragoons, Veiled Riftblades, and Dark Iron Shadowcasters until you unlock the lightforged draenei, void elves and dark iron dwarves, respectively.
And the Dark Iron dwarves were already part of the Alliance since the Cataclysm. But, again, you cannot recruit them until you unlock them as a playable race.
You might as well point at the character creation screen and say "See? No high elf option in the character selection screen. That means the high elves are not an alliance race."
The problem is, that's your own definition about what really defines a core race.
"To me a core Alliance has to fight in THIS patch, THIS build, THIS expansion otherwise that's not an Alliance core race because I said so"
Not everyone shares your point of view.
High elves are an Alliance core race because of historical reasons. Because some of them never left the Alliance. Because they're introduced in every expansions since WoW Vanilla. Because we got 2 Windrunner sisters from one of the most famous family of Quel'Thalas.
And sorry, based on your logic, Pandaren are an Alliance core race because they fight for the Alliance right now. Top kek for a race fighting for both factions.
That doesn't matter. Fact is she is/was High Elf after the restoration of the Snwell and not a member of the Alliance, therefore the difference between Blood Elves and High Elves is not the faction divide.
No it doesn't. There are more options than Horde and Alliance, such as Neutral.
We don't know the percentage of High Elves that are part of the Silver Covenant.
It also doesn't mean the reverse is true as well, that all Dalaran High Elves are Alliance.
Why would the Scryers, who are Blood Elves, oppose their own path ? Seems to me that they deliberately chose their path.
Basically what you are saying is that blue shoes can be distinguished from other color footwear by their color.
Horde Blood Elves are divided from Alliance Humans by the faction divide as well.
That's not true according to Ion Hazzikostas:
"Blood Elves kind of are High Elves with different eye color"-- Ion Hazzikostas April 2018
and
"Eye color is not quite the same but maybe contact lenses in the future, you never know? "-- Ion Hazzikostas April 2018
He mentions eye color as a differentiating factor twice.
For someone who frequently revers to Ion's statements as "word of god", I'm surprised that you seem to ignore this part of his April 2018 Q&A answer.
I used to believe the same thing, but after Ion Hazzikostas statement in April 2018 it seems eye color is a crucial difference.
Yellow eyes were already data-mined in March 2018, a month before he said High Elves and Blood Elves have different eye colors therefore we have to assume he was aware of yellow eyes and therefore it was included in his answer.
Until Blizzard says otherwise or we see clear counter examples we should therefore assume that eye color is one of the differentiating factors between High Elves and Blood Elves, regardless of their organization or faction, even if that conflicts with or requires us to reconsider older lore sources.
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I forgot about the Blood Elves in Telogrus Rift...I guess that means there are non-playable Alliance Blood Elves.
Alleria probably wouldn't allow Void Elves to teach the secrets of the Void to the Horde.
"I guess only blood elves feel like the odd man out for the Horde. I hope that we've engineered that into it as deftly as we could, but you know, it's the equivalent of a bunch of white chicks hanging out with goblin or tauren. It's weird." -- Chris Metzen
Great job taking my point out of context. 10/10.
My post was in response to @elbleuet who said "Ugh...Yea and ? Alliance pandaren are nowhere to be seen either... "
I responded by saying:
- Pandaren are recruitable on mission tables. To my knowledge, high elfs are not.
- Aysa Cloudsinger is in the Alliance embassy. Vareesa is not, nor any other high elf representatives. Alleria represents the void elfs.
- Pandaren are present during questing... some even give you quests. To my knowledge, high elfs are not.
- Pandaren soldiers wearing Alliance like armor... suggesting they're active in this war.
You've then decided to take one line from my response and manage to completely take it out of context. I was factually stating that Alliance Pandaren ARE more present in this faction war than high elfs are. How is what I posted dishonest? If you're gonna reply at least try to be in context with what is being discussed.
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Given that THIS faction war is likely the MOST serious war between the two factions, one would think that any race "core" to the Alliance would be actively and heavily present in THIS war. That is my opinion of course, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on why a "core" alliance race is practically no where to be seen in THIS crucial war?? Seems to me this group of alliance aligned high elfs answer first to the Kirin Tor over the alliance... noting that the Kirin Tor currently want no part in the war.
history
/ˈhɪst(ə)ri/Submit
noun
1.
the study of past events
Key emphasis on past. Presently, they are not "core". Also, even their past allegiance was fickle at best. I can provide sources if you like showing that historically the high elfs were reluctant of their allegiance to the Alliance.
Vareesa is more associated with the Kirin Tor than the Alliance. Her late husband was the leader of the Kirin Tor, and when he became leader she created the Silver Covenant as a militant faction of the Kirin Tor. Alleria is further from a high elf than the blood elfs are. And when high elfs have been introduced, it's usually been as ambassadors of the Kirin Tor.
Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen
"I guess only blood elves feel like the odd man out for the Horde. I hope that we've engineered that into it as deftly as we could, but you know, it's the equivalent of a bunch of white chicks hanging out with goblin or tauren. It's weird." -- Chris Metzen
As of Ion's latest Q&A, it's possible more eye colors and things will be added to the game as customization. Blue yes for Blood Elves, maybe?
Just to be sure, I went back and re-read your post and the one you responded to.
What I said still holds up. Pointing at the "troop recruitment" feature not showing high elves is still a dishonest thing to say because that is a feature that includes only playable races. High elves could comprise 90% of the whole Alliance population, and they'd still not show as a recruit-able troop because they're not a playable race. Which is why the pandaren, as painfully underrepresented and underutilized as they are, do show up as a recruit-able troop.
Again, High elves are in Stromgarde, and Alleria's a High elf, and was instrumental in saving the Alliance in Lordaeron.
And since they're not a playable race, of course they're less represented than the playable ones.
Some were. Others like Alleria, Talthressar or Vereesa weren't reluctant of their first allegiance to the Alliance.I can provide sources if you like showing that historically the high elfs were reluctant of their allegiance to the Alliance.
No. You're just blatantly wrong.Vareesa is more associated with the Kirin Tor than the Alliance.
- Vereesa in Legion.For the record, I counseled against trusting any Horde in this campaign. I have lost a husband and a King to the treachery of the Horde.
A neutral Kirin Tor member puts his allegiance to Council of 6, or to its leader, not to the Alliance High King.
Vereesa considered Varian to be her king. She isn't more associated with the Kirin Tor in any sort than the Alliance.
And in 3 sisters, she hopes the blood elves will join the Alliance again. An associated Kirin Tor member you said ?
That's your opinion. Blizzard's stance on the subject is she's a high elf. And she is.Alleria is further from a high elf than the blood elfs are.
While I understand the point you're trying to make, they're right about this. There's been only one void elf before void elves became playable and that's Alleria, not to mention how she doesn't even look like one, but we'll count her. That means that, already by BfA's high elf count - ignoring every high elf Alliance NPC in the past - there's like up to 10x more high elves than there were void elves before they became playable. You got shieldmages at the Arathi warfront's start, then there's a portal master high elf, then there's even more Silver Covenant high elves in the mage tower, then there's Jaina's angels and so on.
The real issue here is not one side being right or wrong here; it is Blizzard being unable to decide whether they want high elves to be represented within the Alliance or not. They keep adding more and more of them to the Alliance. Continously adding high elves to the Alliance, ever since vanilla, while not making them playable makes no sense.
I know I'm (nearly 500 pages) late to this discussion, but I would love to see High Elves playable on the Alliance. It isn't an aesthetic thing, really, as I have several blood elves and have no problem playing hordeside for aesthetic reasons. I just think it's very clear (at least in previous expansions) that High Elves are strongly identified with the Alliance, and are considered a force of their own. Elisande called out the Quel'Dorei separately from Sin'Dorei and Kaldorei when we attacked the gates.
While I like them and would definitely play them, I wouldn't say I'm diehard - the only reason I come to post here is because the opposite opinion, that High Elves should never be playable, seems like people hold it far too extremely. Why does it matter to you if High Elves become playable on the Alliance? It can't be a silhouette issue, Void Elves already exist. I can't be a "identical (or nearly identical) races on both factions" issue, because Pandaren exist. The only reason I can see for it is spite, that others want it and you don't want them to get what they want.
Call me Cassandra
Future possible eye color options for races in the future huh? How many races have significant differences in their eye color? Looks like only two, nelves and thalasian elves.
Looks like blue eyed options for belves coming soon. And it's supported by lore with the sunwell being both holy and arcane.
Oh boy I cant wait to see the shit storm.
That's really an unfair remark to make if you haven't read through this thread and seen the points made from both sides. If you're coming here to troll then I suggest you move on and don't add fuel to the already heated debate.
It's not about spite. It's about faction identity. Read through the previous posts before adding snark comments like that next time please.
Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen
Nah, if people want to say Blizzard looked at the Unofficial High Elf threads prior to commenting on it during the April Q&A (because honestly the answer given didn't seem like they had) then others are safe to assume prior statements and the decision to have Gold Eyes but not Blue on Blood Elves by "the man himself" Ion were considered when he made his statement.
So Eye color here for the two groups (Blood Elves and High Elves) has more meaning than just the blue and green eyes between say two humans.
Remember, Ion also said that both Blood Elves and High Elves have a different relationship in regards to the Sunwell. To me this is obvious, it's why Blood Elven eyes also glow and High Elven eyes do not (barring any buggy spawns as discussed in previous posts).
Wrong. In two Ask Creative Developement rounds the greens eyes of Blood Elves was addressed:
Round 2:
Q: Why do blood elves still have green eyes?
A: Corruption from fel energies takes a long time to wear off. It's why most orcs are still green even though Mannoroth is dead.
Round 3:
Q: How did the blood elven fel eye glint become so widespread? The Warcraft Encyclopedia suggests that Rommath only taught the blood elves of Azeroth about how to siphon arcane magic, as most of the populace would likely be "horrified" if they knew the true extent of Kael's dealings with Illidan.
A: The situation regarding blood elf eyes is, in fact, extremely similar to that of the green skin of orcs: just being around heavy use of fel magic turned the eyes of the blood elves green. You could be the most pious of priests or most outdoorsy of Farstriders, chances are, if you were a high elf in Quel'Thalas or Outland following the Third War, you were around fel energies, and your eyes would turn green. Like the orcs' skin color, such an effect would take a very long time to wear off. Fel magic works a bit like radiation in this sense; it permeates the area and seeps into anything in the vicinity. Anything near a source of fel magic shows signs of slight corruption, it just so happens that high elves and orcs manifest it in a very visual way.
The answers were approved by Chris Metzen and Alex Afrasiabi and are to be considered canon lore unless contradicted by (official) statements from blizzard employees or blizzard sanctioned sources such as books published after the Ask CDev rounds.
"I guess only blood elves feel like the odd man out for the Horde. I hope that we've engineered that into it as deftly as we could, but you know, it's the equivalent of a bunch of white chicks hanging out with goblin or tauren. It's weird." -- Chris Metzen
Maybe you are right, maybe you are wrong, but I think it speaks to a sense of entitlement in presuming that the desires of a fanbase for a race they have publicly ruled out might be prioritised over offering options to those playing the most popular race in the game.
At the moment, golden eyes are locked to three faces within the character creator for Blood Elves which is pretty much a brute force method of granting the customization. It would be preferable to pick the face we like and match it with the eye colour we want. I am hopeful that what they are discussing will be an entirely new character creator option available to almost every race in the game that does this. If this is the case, then we shall see if the Blood Elf player demand for blue eyes bears fruit.
And I will tell you what the pro High Elf response will be IF blue eyes for Blood Elves happens. Initial outrage, some threats of unsubbing, then a declaration that eye colour does not matter and that Alliance High Elves should still be a thing alongside a renewed confidence in it's inevitability because of all the money they will apparently make or because Blizzard will want to ingratiate themselves back with players after the failure of BFA. The usual things.
Personally, I fully expect them to offer blue eyes for Blood Elves should an eye colour customization option be added. The demand is known, with even Ion making the 'contact lenses' comment nearly a year ago. When they are implementing the eye colour customization option for all the races and come to the Blood Elves, do you really think they are just going to restrict them to gold and green?
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Prior to the destruction of the Sunwell, every thalassian elf was a High Elf. Like every civilization in the game, the individuals within the civilization were free to make their own choices whether it was to serve their kingdom, live in Dalaran, go off to study elementium or join the cult of the damned. All were High Elves because High Elf was just the race.
Following the destruction of Quel'thalas, the lawful Prince of the High Elves declared his people the Blood Elves, in an instant redefining High Elves as Blood Elves and establishing Blood Elves as the de facto thalassian elf. Following certain decisions made by the Blood Elven leadership, a few left or were exiled from Quel'thalas. They rejected the path their people were on and reclaimed the name High Elves. At this point, the term 'High Elf' was not the all encompassing phrase it had been just a few years prior. It was a politically loaded term, meaning a rejection of what Blood Elves were doing. As the philosophical dispute that characterized the early split was resolved with the restoration of the Sunwell, what is left is the lingering bitterness of the Alliance High Elves against having to leave their homes reinforced with their loyalty to the Alliance that took them in.
Being an Alliance High Elf is a political choice not to follow the political mainstream of their people.
One of the consistent facts pointed out about Alliance High Elves is their appallingly low population with races recognised to be on the verge of extinction such as Gnomes far more numerous than them. There simply aren't the numbers for the Alliance High Elves to be as politically diverse as other races with only one or two examples able to be found. And a credible case can be made for some of those High Elves that they joined other organizations before the actual change to Blood Elf, meaning they came from a time when High Elf meant all thalassian elves and not just those who have made the political choice to side with the Alliance. For these few individuals, renaming themselves Blood Elf at that point would have been a redundant act.
Dalaran's neutrality itself is heavily slanted towards the Alliance. In the same way Ireland was neutral during the Cold War, but with a clear preference for the US camp. The Silver Covenant is full of Alliance loyal High Elves. And, not to put too fine a point on it, during the purge, ALL Blood Elves whether civilian or Sunreaver were treated as Horde enemies. If all Blood Elves are perceived as Horde, then any Alliance High Elf within the city should be similarly presumed to be loyal to the Alliance. After all, what defines a High Elf is their political rejection of the path the Blood Elves are on and their embrace of the Alliance as the only place that will take them.
The point is, Scryers are similar to Alliance High Elves, a separate group of thalssian elves in a strange city working for different leaders. But they are on a parallel path to the majority of their people rather than an opposing one.
Nope, that's fashion, not political opinion. The Alliance High Elves have rejected what their people have become, and they have politicised the phrase 'High Elf' to mean someone who rejects the Blood Elves path and is aligned with the Alliance. Humans are divided from Blood Elves by the faction wall but the critical point is that Humans and Blood Elves are not the same race whereas Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves are. Humans are divided from Blood Elves by a lot more than the faction wall, when that is all that divides Blood Elves from Alliance High Elves.
Not ignoring it, he also in the same interview promised to get Blood Elves contact lenses for the requested blue eye colour although I presume that was tongue in cheek. Given the Q and A last night, this particular topic maybe resolved soon as he did say something about this being dealt with in the near future. If all races are going to get an eye colour customization option, Blood Elves should be able to get blue as this is an outcome supported by lore that indicates eye colour is mutable. The existence of golden eyes proves it and that is because of the holy part of the Sunwell. The Sunwell is also part Arcane though.
The existence of those individuals shows that Blood Elves are not defined by their allegiance to the Horde, as you proved to me, but simply by being a thalassian Elf.
Regardless, the Moorgard interview with Polygon pretty much confirms that the Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves learning how to use the void in Tel'rogus are being turned into Void Elves. In other words, it maybe a Blood Elf, but not for much longer.
Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-03-22 at 11:00 AM.