1. #9461
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    For all we know, 8.3 is about the Silvermoon Warfront with the high + void elves vs. blood + nightborne elves.
    Ion said this when asked about the Barrens Warefront:

    Nothing is planned. That was a very early internal prototype, when first beginning development of Battle for Azeroth, which served as a test bed before any of the new areas were created. Most things were taken out and never even made it into Alpha testing, but a few strings remained and were found by datamining.

    That same datamining found the Silvermoon warfront, which too likely was scrapped as it was just an initial prototype. So I wouldn't get your hopes up about a Silvermoon warfront.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    And even if they are not featured, so what? They exist. That's reason enough for them to reapper in the future.
    And that's fine, they can reappear...as NPCs
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  2. #9462
    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Ion said this when asked about the Barrens Warefront:

    Nothing is planned. That was a very early internal prototype, when first beginning development of Battle for Azeroth, which served as a test bed before any of the new areas were created. Most things were taken out and never even made it into Alpha testing, but a few strings remained and were found by datamining.

    That same datamining found the Silvermoon warfront, which too likely was scrapped as it was just an initial prototype. So I wouldn't get your hopes up about a Silvermoon warfront.
    Missed the point, uh? "For all we know" means 8.3 could be about anything.

    Oh, and we don't need a Warfront to have a major battle around a city. Actually, the two big cities that fell had no related Warfronts.

    And that's fine, they can reappear...as NPCs
    And we will keep asking for them, thank you very much.
    Whatever...

  3. #9463
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    500 pages! Wow!!!
    Hope you are well!!

  4. #9464
    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    500 pages! Wow!!!
    Congrats!

    BTW, now that I'm rank 3 in the official forums, I posted the images and linked your OP there. Let's make that concept art reach even more people!
    Whatever...

  5. #9465
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Congrats!

    BTW, now that I'm rank 3 in the official forums, I posted the images and linked your OP there. Let's make that concept art reach even more people!
    Excellent idea! People shouldn’t be seeing the high elves for what they are now, but what they could be with a bit of creativity.

  6. #9466
    @Obelisk Kai Found this video, and it supports the original claim you made that blood elfs ARE the high elf trope of WoW.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3uz...o5tfIA&index=2

    Skip to 7:05... Chris Metzen states that blood elfs ARE our high elfs. So it's clear Blizzards intention was always that blood elfs would be the high elfs of WoW. So adding playable high elfs would detract from THE playable high elven race on the Horde... the group that Blizzard intented would hold the torch for high elf story in the future.

    Also, at 10:17 Chris reinforces that blood elfs are the high elf trope in WoW. "We are the high elven blood"

    For those interested, Chris talks about the blood elfs roughly between 7:00-14:00. I understand lorewise some things have been slightly altered since, but it's clear that from the very beginning of the introduction of blood elfs that Blizzard looked at them as "the high elfs of WoW". This is why alliance aligned high elfs would blur faction lines, cause the high elven lore belongs to the blood elfs (who are now a core Horde race) and Blizzard intends to keep it that way.... hence why void elfs were made an AR as opposed to high elfs
    Last edited by Strippling; 2019-04-02 at 09:06 AM.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  7. #9467
    Brewmaster elbleuet's Avatar
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    So in order to not blur the faction lines, should we forbid void elves with the head fully covered by a helmet since we don't exactly know if it's a blood elf or a void elf ?
    What's the difference between 2 cowled void & blood elves ? None.

    This argument is pointless.

    cause the high elven lore belongs to the blood elfs (who are now a core Horde race) and Blizzard intends to keep it that way.... hence why void elfs were made an AR as opposed to high elfs
    It also belongs to the void and high elves and half-elves such as Arator to a lesser extend.
    Last edited by elbleuet; 2019-04-02 at 09:40 AM.

  8. #9468
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    @Strippling Before you or others start thinking you have found something of value to support your flawed view i'm just gonna point out the obvious.

    'Blood elves are our high elves'

    The 'high elves', the trope from LotR and other fantasy worlds with the former fantasy race. As much as WoW Blood elves and High elves are. In fact, in LotR there are more than one 'High elf' society, as WoW has.

    It's so obvious that is painfully telling how much you are willing to fault to the truth in order to support biased premises.

    Just have a bit of shame and self awareness, just a little bit.

    Edit: Oh, also... About the 'high elven lore'...

    There's no such thing as high elven lore belonging to Blood elves, there's the lore of Silvermoon and Quel'thalas, with it's people who given a certain time they split up and took different paths, that lore is the lore of all Thalassian elves, and is also their past. What's important is current time, and that can't simply be said to be capitalised by your favorite picking since others also exists with it's own pieces of lore.

    They share roots, but different ramifications. It's simple as that but you don't feel like it fits your vision.

    Also, we don't even have to wait until High elves become playable to see if they 'take away from Blood elf lore', they already had their appearings since TbC. Tell me, what did Blood elves lost every time a High elf appeared?
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2019-04-02 at 09:53 AM.

  9. #9469
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    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    The Draeneï are just Eredars who managed to flee Argus, nothing less and nothing more.
    The Draenei lost an awful lot and changed an awful lot in their journey across the universe and the arcane has never been presented as a major part of their culture. The Draenei have always been presented as being primarily Paladins and Priests, wielders of the light, that is the central focus of their culture. In contrast, magic is the core of the the Nightborne and the Blood Elves' civilizations to the point that the Blood Elves are addicted to it and the Nightborne have only recently escaped their own addiction.

    The Eredar were masters of the arcane and the demons we faced on Argus were similarly masters of magic, but they didn't flee across half the universe in the past ten thousand years. The Draenei are uncorrupted Eredar, but they are also distinctly different from what they were pre-corruption in terms of culture due to the overwhelming focus on the light.

    The Nightborne, the Blood Elves and the Human Magisters of Dalaran are likely the most powerful, most accomplished Mages on Azeroth. Of those three groups, two are aligned with the Horde and one is observing a technical neutrality. This means that the Horde outstrips the Alliance in terms of Arcane potential, even if the strongest Mage on Azeroth is Alliance racial leader Jaina Proudmoore.


    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    They are. They're helping the Alliance in Stromgarde, helped Halduron to protect Quel'Thalas from the Amani threat. They helped Jaina to purge Dalaran from the Horde, helped the Kirin Tor & the Sunreavers to defeat the Thunder King, and aided recently Suramar along with the Blood and Night elves.
    According to Chronicle, it was the Horde that dealt with the Amani threat during the Cataclysm. The Silver Covenant may have showed up but their 'participation' didn't even warrant a footnote.

    And they did not 'help' the Kirin Tor during the Isle of Thunder. That is akin to saying the US Marine Corp helps the American military in times of war. The Silver Covenant was not a separate force, it was a part of the Kirin Tor Offensive under the command of Jaina Proudmoore. Just as they participated in the Kirin Tor assault force that was one of the three allied armies that attacked Suramar (four if we count Thalyssra's rebels as a separate force).

    And as for Stromgarde, there are two Alliance High Elves who are kept on an airship generating a shield, I know, I counted them on my Draenei Shaman. I also counted Frostfencer Seraphi and that portal mage, Yvera, for a grand total of FOUR Alliance High Elves within BFA so far. I do not count the two Kirin Tor High Elves opening the portal in Stormwind, as when they have a Kirin Tor hat on they are neutral even if they are Alliance aligned.

    There are far, far more Void Elves participating within the Alliance war effort.




    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    And no they're not dead. Horde fanboys keep saying it since 2007. High elves won't die, even if you don't like it.
    The race of thalassian Elves won't die, particularly given the Blood Elves are recovering well. But on almost every single occasion they have been talked about, the Alliance High Elf population has been brought up as being incredibly low. This is across fifteen years.
    Blizzard has never seen fit to retcon this despite having multiple opportunities to do so through an expansion, a novel or even the Chronicles whose sole purpose was to codify the lore and despite all that we have Caydiem in 2005 saying what Ion said in 2018, the Alliance High Elves are all but extinct.



    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    They don't need to be a massive force to deal massive damages. That's precisely what makes them useful and interesting.
    The point isn't that Void Elves require a massive force, the point is that pro High Elves draw a false equivalence between an admittedly small group (Void Elves) and an almost dead group (Alliance High Elves) and argue that if one is playable despite their low numbers, the other group should be too. Which misses the distinction between 'small' and 'almost dead'. Besides, Void Elves can recruit other Elves into being Void Elves (confirmed by Moorgard). Void Elves are not subject to the population argument that applies to Alliance High Elves as Void Elves are able to realistically replenish their numbers through new converts.



    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Simply because the Alliance fights with way more mages than the Horde does. Blood elves are powerful but a tiny group as they were exterminated by Arthas. And the Nightborne are completely absent from this war. And Rommath doesn't seem to care for the Horde as he's chilling in SMC since the very beginning of this deadly conflict whereas Umbric is proving his valor in Zandalar. And Jaina is everywhere.
    As stated these are subjective observations on your part, without much in the way of supporting evidence. There are plentiful Mages on either side in the conflict, seen most prominently in invasions with Honorbound Arcanists (https://www.wowhead.com/npc=148919/honorbound-arcanist) many of whom are Nightborne or Blood Elves.

    Jaina is not the be all and end all of Mages. She is an outlier.



    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    According to Jeremy Feasel (word of god) Anveena's sacrifice resulted in the Blood-Elves golden eyes. This would mean the Sunwell played no role in it, whether the energy is holy, arcane, fel or void.


    Whatever seems to have happened before must have been retconned...unless we cannot take the Devs as canon lore.

    I've been checking the history of the High Elves blue eyes in Warcraft games and lore. There seems to be no canon lore source indicating a direct link between the Sunwell's arcane energy and the High Elves blue eyes. There are however several sources indicating High Elves should in fact have more than just glowing and non-glowing blue eyes.

    • In Warcraft 2 the (High) Elven Archer and Ranger didn't have blue eyes. This was thousands of years after the Sunwell was created
    • In Warcraft 3 the arcane magic using High Elf Sorceress didn't have blue eyes but the Holy magic practicing High Elven priest did.
    • In Warcaft 3 The Blood Mage and Spellbreaker units also have no blue eyes. Since the priest did it's not because Blizzard couldn't do it.
    • According to Tides of Darkness (the book) Alleria had normal green eyes. Perhaps a 1000 years in the cosmos affected her eye color which would explain both ToD (still a canon lore source) and her legion in-game representation.
    • Warbringers: Sylvanas which was recently released shows High Elves with different color and non-glowing eyes when Arthas attacked (this also is prior to the destruction of the Sunwell).


    Only in TBC did we suddenly see High Elves with blue glowing eyes, although in recent years female High Elves seem to have lost the glow again.



    So if we follow canon lore it seems the High Elves blue eye color didn't become so prominent until after the Sunwell was destroyed. We could speculate that the destruction of the Sunwell caused it but it could also be limited customization options in game and the reality is that High Elves can have a whole range of eye color options except glowing green (due to fel) and glowing golden/yellow since Ion Hazzikostas stated High Elves and Blood Elves have different color eyes.

    Your theory that the Sunwell caused the High Elves blue eyes conflicts with multiple sources and would require retcons of multiple canon lore sources including a very recently released source (Warbringers: Sylvanas). I think we should leave the retcons to Blizzard.
    Fair enough, you make a strong case that blue eyes were not caused by the Sunwell prior to it's destruction.

    However, if you are correct, this means that the relationship between thalassian elves and the Sunwell has changed because Blizzard has also been explicit that the holy aspect of the Sunwell is the reason that some Elves are now manifesting golden eyes.

    So the original logic behind the request for blue eyes for Blood Elves holds, if the holy aspect of the new Sunwell allows those attuned to the light to manifest golden eyes as the fel is cleansed from their bodies, then those attuned to the Arcane should be able to manifest blue eyes through the Arcane aspect of the Sunwell. And we know thalassian elves can manifest glowing blue eyes because the Alliance High Elves do it.




    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    Jerermy Feasel's words were very clear though and apparently retconned previous events. As you once wrote:


    Shouldn't the same be true for Jeremy Feasel, who is a frequently interviewed senior developer.

    It wouldn't be the first time in-game events witnessed by players have to be reconsidered in later expansions. e.g. Illidan appearing to die in black temple but later turned out to be imprisoned by Maiev.
    It's funny you mention Illidan, as this is the perfect counterpoint to your what you are claiming here.

    Illidan did die in the Black Temple. He was not imprisoned, Maiev took his body and stored it away in case anyone got any ideas of using his corpse (such as trying to use it as a vessel for Sargeras to enter Azeroth). Blizzard could not invalidate existing lore which we had experienced in game, they just couldn't say 'he didn't really die'. They spent the first third of Legion undoing his death, having us fight Helya for his soul and finally resurrecting him. Not a retcon, this was them working the story they had previously told and creating an adventure out of it.

    I am fond of word of God, I believe I was the individual who introduced the phrase into this discussion. after all.
    But word of God has limits, which is something I have always maintained. Firstly, word of God can be overwritten by future events in game. Secondly, word of God can be overwritten by future word of God. Thirdly, word of God must be judged on context.

    Let us take the example I use as word of god all the time, Ion's repeated stance that Blood Elves are High Elves and therefore playable. This is a fact Blizzard has been very consistent on for the past fifteen years, with today Strippling even locating a video of Chris Metzen (God of Lore) saying Blood Elves are High Elves. There really isn't a comeback to that.

    Yet what Feasel said doesn't carry the same weight, as there are several other Blizzard sources that tell a different story from their own website entry on Blood Elves, to the Chronicles, to common sense. The website entry says Velen purified the Sunwell, the Chronicles say the same thing I believe (and when I get the opportunity I will consult my copy of Chronicles to confirm) and the fact that the holy aspect of the Sunwell is now providing Blood Elves with golden eyes, a direct result of the purification through adding the heart of a naaru, is the clincher. We were all there when the Sunwell was reignited, we saw what did it, we heard the wonder in Liadrin's voice as the new well sated her addiction with holy energy.

    Anveena's sacrifice was to use the power of the old Sunwell against Kil'Jaeden. She did not reignite it or purify it, that was Velen with the heart of M'uru. There is too much evidence in favour of Velen to simply take what Feasel said at face value, that Anveen purified the Sunwell. If you want a rationalisation of his words, I provided that, he was using Anveena's sacrifice as shorthand for the sequence of events that led to purification. Or he misspoke on a point of lore, which has happened before with the infamous example of Falstad and Muradin.

    I suspect the point of this diversion has been an attempt to get me to argue that Feasel is wrong, that his word of god is wrong, and therefore to accuse me of hypocrisy in disavowing one 'word of god' when it suits me and defending the Blood Elves are High Elves line as infallible word of God.

    I hope the previous paragraphs show that is not the case. Feasel's words can be rationalised in line with the existing interpretation of what happened at the Sunwell, and if it is stretching it is more probable he misspoke on a minor point of lore and this has been known to happen.

    However, in contrast, Blood Elves are High Elves (and High Elves being playable) has been reiterated time after time after time with no real counter-argument developed to say why that is incorrect beyond wish fulfillment.




    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    Alleria might identify herself with Void Elves because she sympathizes and supports their struggle. It doesn't make her a Void Elf.

    In the quest For the Light! Turalyon says "The Lightforged Draenei will be happy to join the Alliance. Our cause is now yours ...". It doesn't make Turalyon a Lightforged Draenei (unless he can hide his hooves very well ).

    Turalyon never claimed to be a Lightforged Draenei, although as a Lightforged Human he would qualify as an Allied race candidate if there were more than one of him. The Lightforged appear to be a collective in which every single member save two happen to be Draenei. Had Alleria followed Turalyon, she would have been a Lightforged Elf.

    The attempt to deny that Alleria is a Void Elf has the transparent aim of pretending there is a senior, important High Elf within the Alliance and to marginalize the Void Elves by reducing their main representative to Umbric, who is pretty much another flunky.

    But Alleria defines herself on multiple occasions as a Void Elf and has an ability called 'Void Elf Transform'.

    Alleria IS a Void Elf. Her character has the final word on this matter.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-04-02 at 11:06 AM. Reason: Comment regarding Thalyssra and Jaina answered

  10. #9470
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post


    Has Thalyssra ever been in a conflict with Jaina? How do you know Thalyssra's abilities pale before Jaina?
    I'm not going to get into most of this, but I can answer this one.
    Yes Thalyssra and Jaina confronted each other during the BFA intro event where they snuck into Stormwind.
    Thalyssra was powerless to stop Jaina and they had to run away.

  11. #9471
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    @Obelisk Kai Found this video, and it supports the original claim you made that blood elfs ARE the high elf trope of WoW.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3uz...o5tfIA&index=2

    Skip to 7:05... Chris Metzen states that blood elfs ARE our high elfs. So it's clear Blizzards intention was always that blood elfs would be the high elfs of WoW. So adding playable high elfs would detract from THE playable high elven race on the Horde... the group that Blizzard intented would hold the torch for high elf story in the future.

    Also, at 10:17 Chris reinforces that blood elfs are the high elf trope in WoW. "We are the high elven blood"

    For those interested, Chris talks about the blood elfs roughly between 7:00-14:00. I understand lorewise some things have been slightly altered since, but it's clear that from the very beginning of the introduction of blood elfs that Blizzard looked at them as "the high elfs of WoW". This is why alliance aligned high elfs would blur faction lines, cause the high elven lore belongs to the blood elfs (who are now a core Horde race) and Blizzard intends to keep it that way.... hence why void elfs were made an AR as opposed to high elfs
    Extremely interesting find.

    We can now draw a line from this panel in 2005 to Ion's statement in 2018 and find a consistent narrative thread from Blizzard that has remained unaltered across nearly a decade and a half, a narrative thread they have never wavered from despite multiple opportunities to do so (including the Chronicles were retcons were happening right left and centre).

    That Blood Elves are High Elves and that High Elves are playable.

    You can see how this logic segued into their determination to keep the factions distinct following the failure of Pandaren neutrality and how, when they came to choose Allied races, they dealt with the request for Alliance High Elves by creating the Void Elf variant.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    I'm not going to get into most of this, but I can answer this one.
    Yes Thalyssra and Jaina confronted each other during the BFA intro event where they snuck into Stormwind.
    Thalyssra was powerless to stop Jaina and they had to run away.
    I concede that then, I had forgotten about that.

  12. #9472
    It is true that Blood elves represent the fantasy High elf trope, but the actual Warcraft High elves represent it's own unique trope separate from the standard High elf trope.
    High elves aren't supremacist, arrogant or overly racist. They're humble, friendly and supporting of the Alliance and their human allies and even Horde races in some cases.

    They're their own unique elf trope and that's what has attracted many people to them, it was never having blonde pretty elves in the Alliance.

  13. #9473
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    It is true that Blood elves represent the fantasy High elf trope, but the actual Warcraft High elves represent it's own unique trope separate from the standard High elf trope.
    High elves aren't supremacist, arrogant or overly racist. They're humble, friendly and supporting of the Alliance and their human allies and even Horde races in some cases.

    They're their own unique elf trope and that's what has attracted many people to them, it was never having blonde pretty elves in the Alliance.
    This is getting a little absurd don't you think?

    I mean the video proves what Ion said last year didn't come out of the blue, here is Chris Metzen himself saying 'Blood Elves are our High Elves' way back in 2005. That is thirteen years between the initial statement and it's repetition and we can look back and see how this fact has informed the progression of the game.

    Why they went with Void Elves makes perfect sense once you accept Chris Metzen's words.

    In the video, Metzen is explicit that they wanted to do to the High Elf trope with Warcraft what they had done to the Dark Elf and Wood Elven tropes, by smashing the two together they had created the Night Elves. They wanted a new spin on the standard trope, which is exactly what Warcraft 2 High Elves were. Blood Elves were the result.

    In other words, Chris Metzen is saying what I have maintained for quite a while, that Blood Elves are the redefinition of what a High Elf is within the Warcraft universe.

    What is left of the Alliance High Elves, the relics of Warcraft 2 so to speak, can only be differentiated from Blood Elves apparently because they 'aren't supremacist, arrogant or overly racist. They're humble, friendly and supporting of the Alliance '.

    Tell me, how do you represent 'not supremacist, or arrogant, or overly racist' in a character creator?
    How are those traits apparent on the Blood Elf model, because the implication of what you have written is that Blood Elves ARE supremacist, ARE arrogant and ARE overly racist.

    How is humbleness as separating a trait as hair tentacles?

    These are opinions, these are feelings and they are not generic traits that mark out one group from another.

    All that divides Alliance High Elves from Blood Elves is the opinion of the Alliance High Elves. And by citing personality traits rather than something more profound as your differentiators you implicitly agree, even if those are stereotypes without foundation you've invented yourself (maybe not arrogance).

    Alliance High Elves are identical to Blood Elves in every way that matters. And as such, they cannot be made playable without undermining the faction integrity of the Horde or undermining Blood Elves as Blizzard's spin on the standard High Elf trope.

    This is the fundamental fact that cannot be overcome. And if you think it's not about getting blonde pretty elves in the Alliance, you are mistaken. Lionknight let the cat out of the bag by openly going on about the importance of skin colour for High Elves, and everyone overjoyed at the mention of 'High Elf like' customizations for Void Elves (on which there was plentiful forum spam) similarly confirms it was about the aesthetics and not the lore. Some people care about the lore, and they are used by those who care about aesthetics as a presentable fig leaf.

    P.S. It is amusing to see this video is following the standard pattern of all official commentary on the pro High Elf goal. An official statement is provided which supports the Anti High Elf position that High Elves are already playable, and pro High Elfers fall over themselves attempting to argue why it doesn't count. You'd think the fact that it's always pro High Elfers arguing against official statements would be a massive hint, as nothing said or done has ever contradicted the anti High Elf position (in fact, it's the contrary).
    Wonder how long it will be before someone cites the video's age as a reason to ignore it, after all Ion's re-statements of the same point was attacked as old after six months had passed. Seems to me that the pro high elf community only treats negative comment as valid for as long as it takes the Blizzard rep to say because the moment they finish speaking, they MIGHT have changed their minds and because they might have changed their minds, what they said is clearly invalid. Absolutely delusional of course, but par the course for most of the pro High Elf community.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-04-02 at 12:42 PM.

  14. #9474
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Hope you are well!!
    Thanks Flubber, life is good!

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Congrats!

    BTW, now that I'm rank 3 in the official forums, I posted the images and linked your OP there. Let's make that concept art reach even more people!
    That's awesome! Hope they enjoy them over there. Do you have a link to the thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    It is true that Blood elves represent the fantasy High elf trope, but the actual Warcraft High elves represent it's own unique trope separate from the standard High elf trope.
    I actually disagree. Blood Elves don't represent the fantasy High Elf trope. Blood Elves represent the classical elf trope from myths where elves were allied with the scary monsters of the wilderness and were something for humanity to fear. As allies of orcs, trolls, undead, minotaur, and goblins, they are exactly what they were always depicted to be: beautiful monsters, both powerful and dangerous, who kill humans.

    The fantasy High Elf trope is very different. These are heroic elves that look almost human and fight alongside humanity against the evils of the world (i.e. orcs, trolls, undead, minotaur, and goblins).

  15. #9475
    Brewmaster elbleuet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post

    P.S. It is amusing to see this video is following the standard pattern of all official commentary on the pro High Elf goal. An official statement is provided which supports the Anti High Elf position that High Elves are already playable, and pro High Elfers fall over themselves attempting to argue why it doesn't count. You'd think the fact that it's always pro High Elfers arguing against official statements would be a massive hint, as nothing said or done has ever contradicted the anti High Elf position (in fact, it's the contrary).
    Wonder how long it will be before someone cites the video's age as a reason to ignore it, after all Ion's re-statements of the same point was attacked as old after six months had passed. Seems to me that the pro high elf community only treats negative comment as valid for as long as it takes the Blizzard rep to say because the moment they finish speaking, they MIGHT have changed their minds and because they might have changed their minds, what they said is clearly invalid. Absolutely delusional of course, but par the course for most of the pro High Elf community.
    You're doing exactly the same because you don't care about official commentary when it doesn't suit you. Both camp are actually doing it.
    And yes, your video is clearly outdated. Official devs changed their mind since. Because if they did not, High elves wouldn't have been introduced in every expansion since TBC.

  16. #9476
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post

    I actually disagree. Blood Elves don't represent the fantasy High Elf trope. Blood Elves represent the classical elf trope from myths where elves were allied with the scary monsters of the wilderness and were something for humanity to fear. As allies of orcs, trolls, undead, minotaur, and goblins, they are exactly what they were always depicted to be: beautiful monsters, both powerful and dangerous, who kill humans.

    The fantasy High Elf trope is very different. These are heroic elves that look almost human and fight alongside humanity against the evils of the world (i.e. orcs, trolls, undead, minotaur, and goblins).
    Easily disproved thanks to our new video source where Chris Metzen talks about the genesis of the Blood Elves. He brings up that the impetus for the reimagining of the High Elf trope was what they did with Night Elves.

    We know from other interviews that the Night Elf 'reimagining' was in fact the conflation of two other tropes from wider fantasy, Dark Elves and Wood Elves. Dark Elves, with their female societies and preference for the night and the wood elves harmony with the forests and nature.

    They aren't referring to ancient stories when they talk about this, they are talking about Dungeons and Dragons versions of these races they had invented. Dungeons and Dragons as I am sure you are aware basically created early modern fantasy, with all the High Fantasy settings created since it's inception heavily borrowing from it. Warhammer is an example of a franchise that heavily borrowed from D and D.Warcraft was initially conceived as a Warhammer rts in the very beginning and they couldn't get the license. They knew exactly what tropes and stereotypes they were pillaging and inverting to forge their own lore.

    And wouldn't you know it, Chris Metzen is a huge Dungeons and Dragons fan.

    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...ic/20749037340

    So no, they aren't reaching back to ancient stories or old lore to inform their storytelling. Those who came before like Gygax already did that. They are taking what Gygax did and inverting it. Those are the stereotypes they were working with.

    Which is why we have Night Elves and Blood Elves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    You're doing exactly the same because you don't care about official commentaries when it doesn't suit you. Both camp are actually doing it.
    And yes, your video is clearly outdated. Official devs changed their mind since. Because if they did not, High elves wouldn't have been introduced in every expansion since TBC.
    Really? Because in the video Chris Metzen says clearly Blood Elves are High Elves.
    And Ion says Blood Elves are High Elves thirteen years later.
    And Alliance High Elves still aren't playable.

    So I doubt the video is outdated if every statement on the matter since has simply been restating what Chris Metzen said.

  17. #9477
    Brewmaster elbleuet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Easily disproved thanks to our new video source where Chris Metzen talks about the genesis of the Blood Elves. He brings up that the impetus for the reimagining of the High Elf trope was what they did with Night Elves.

    We know from other interviews that the Night Elf 'reimagining' was in fact the conflation of two other tropes from wider fantasy, Dark Elves and Wood Elves. Dark Elves, with their female societies and preference for the night and the wood elves harmony with the forests and nature.

    They aren't referring to ancient stories when they talk about this, they are talking about Dungeons and Dragons versions of these races they had invented. Dungeons and Dragons as I am sure you are aware basically created early modern fantasy, with all the High Fantasy settings created since it's inception heavily borrowing from it. Warhammer is an example of a franchise that heavily borrowed from D and D.Warcraft was initially conceived as a Warhammer rts in the very beginning and they couldn't get the license. They knew exactly what tropes and stereotypes they were pillaging and inverting to forge their own lore.

    And wouldn't you know it, Chris Metzen is a huge Dungeons and Dragons fan.

    https://us.battle.net/forums/en/over...ic/20749037340

    So no, they aren't reaching back to ancient stories or old lore to inform their storytelling. Those who came before like Gygax already did that. They are taking what Gygax did and inverting it. Those are the stereotypes they were working with.

    Which is why we have Night Elves and Blood Elves.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Really? Because in the video Chris Metzen says clearly Blood Elves are High Elves.
    And Ion says Blood Elves are High Elves thirteen years later.
    And Alliance High Elves still aren't playable.

    So I doubt the video is outdated if every statement on the matter since has simply been restating what Chris Metzen said.
    Chris Metzen and Ion basically say Blood elves are heirs of the High elves, which is true because they're from the same race and they live in Quel'Thalas. But that's it.
    Every single blood elves IG would disagree with you if you call them High elves because they don't consider themselves as such. That's why calling them Horde high elves is a lie.

    High elves aren't playable indeed... for now.

  18. #9478
    Holy crap man...

    we find a video supporting anti helfers with Metzen, the father of fucking WARCRAFT LORE him self and you guys continue to distort logic and reasoning with mindless hope and wishful thinking.

    Blizzard in 2021: "high elves will never EVER be playable because they already exist as their literary evolution as belves in the Horde." Signed every single Blizz dev.

    Helfers in 2021: "don't lose hope guys, last patch introduced a faceless helf npc and they still have exclusive blue eyes so probably helves next expac!!"

    Blizzard in 2023: all helves died from mana aids. They are literaly extinct.

    Helfers in 2023: "the bronze dragons will open a rift to old azeroth and recruit past helves as an AR."

    Seriouse question here, what will it seriously take for you guys to accept the fact that helves already exist in the horde and won't be added to the alliance in the form that you're asking.

    #neutralelves, #compensatewithogres, #blueeyesforhorde
    Last edited by Varx; 2019-04-02 at 01:44 PM.

  19. #9479
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    our new video source where Chris Metzen talks about the genesis of the Blood Elves.
    Hiya Kai! Awesome, haven't seen this video. Do you have a link?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    They aren't referring to ancient stories when they talk about this, they are talking about Dungeons and Dragons versions of these races they had invented.
    On this I highly disagree. If Metzen's body of work is taken as a whole, he is a student of all this ancient stuff and knows many specific details very well. He wasn't just exposed to these ideas through culture, he studied it. I understand that he was trying to invert basic D&D concepts, but in this case (blood elves) he did this by just going back to what an "elf" was portrayed as classically. He didn't do something new, he went old (but out of fashion).

  20. #9480
    No matter blizzards intentions, they've dug themselves into a hole on this one. If they had wanted blood elves to be the the high elves of wow they shouldn't have put high elves on the alliance side at the same time, and kept putting them in and giving them so much spotlight (as much as or more than many playable races) over the years. As long as the game itself contradicts their words and intentions, people won't stop asking to play them. Same with Ion trying to explain their stance that blood elves are high elves, no one will listen to that as long as the game itself keeps contradicting him. He should just cut the crap and just say that they don't want to do high elves, and if he wants to back that up not go with flimsy excuses that the game itself seemingly disproves.

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