Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Combatbutler]

Sure. High Elves were part of the lore in Warcraft I

I don't recall the elves being mentioned once, while playing the game.

. They had units in WCII and had an actual named hero character. The Archer/Ranger unit was a core unit that saw LOTS of play in all WCII games. The core of Alliance armies were human footman and high elf archers.

And it ended with them leaving the Alliance after the war

In WCIII they were a huge part of the story.

Yeah standing on their own, as their kingdom gets ransacked and in TfT we follow them as most of them forge a new identity and break ties with the Alliance for good.

So saying they are iconic to the Alliance isn't really true, it shows a rather complicated relationship with the Alliance.

[The Stormbringer]

High Elves are Blood Elves.
Prince kael'thas sunstrider rename them after the attack of the scourge on silvermoon.
Check the Lore and the offical race page on blizz. High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race 100%
They just changed the name nothing more.

Then I guess those High Elves that still exist with blue eyes, as members of the Alliance, who are in no way associated with the Blood Elves don't exist!

[Traycor]

You do realize High Elves as a whole literally abandoned the Alliance after the second war right?

Not as a whole. They abandoned the Alliance as a nation. Based on old numbers, 10% of the remaining population was still allied with the Alliance, which is a big percentage. With the new retcons, we have a bunch more Alliance High Elves that survived. That's part of the reason you've continued to see High Elves on the Alliance side through the expansions of WoW. It would be silly for one of our iconic races to just *poof* disappear. It wouldn't make sense.

They fought alongside the Alliance in the second war, so there are Elven archers in that game, but that's it. Calling them an "iconic" race is a bit of a stretch.

Did you ever play WCII? Your army was basically footmen and archers. It was half an army of elves. And your core water unit was an elven destroyer. All your scouting was done with rangers. The elven ballistas were your main siege unit. High Elves were some of the most core units on Alliance side. In the WCIII expansion, the only "Alliance" campaign you could even play was all blood elf, all the time. Even them leaving the Alliance was the Alliance campaign.

It was pretty obvious pre TBC that the blood elves that didn't join Kael'thas were going to rejoin the Alliance for the xpac. Faction population killed that, but it was the right call. I played Alliance on a PvP server and the Horde numbers were abysmal.

Sure, there are those that stayed somewhat loyal to the Alliance that's a true statement, but they're NOT an iconic Alliance race.

There's also the deep history of the humans and High Elves having a 3000 year alliance. Players have consistently made the playable High Elf Alliance request because they are an iconic Alliance race.

[Obelisk Kai]

Sure. High Elves were part of the lore in Warcraft I. They had units in WCII and had an actual named hero character. The Archer/Ranger unit was a core unit that saw LOTS of play in all WCII games. The core of Alliance armies were human footman and high elf archers. In WCIII they were a huge part of the story.

Compare that with gnomes, that you are saying were a core/iconic Alliance race because of their playable inclusion at the beginning of WoW. They didn't exist in WCI. They had 2 units in WCII and a building, no characters, no story. And they weren't in WCIII at all. By the time WoW rolled around, gnomes even being in the Alliance (or existing in Warcraft at all) was basically forgotten.

You mention Gnomes didn't exist in Warcraft 1. Neither did High Elves. Citing Warcraft 1 as you did proves my point, the expectation of what you THINK should be there is colouring your perceptions of what actually was there. The only races that existed in Warcraft 1 were Orcs and Humans.

The Warcraft 2 High Elf forces belonged to the Kingdom of Quel'thalas which, as detailed in Chronicles and the novel Tides of Darkness, had to be compelled to join the Alliance (last in) and were the first out. Initially the Kingdom of Quel'thalas sent a small, token force to assist the Alliance. Alleria was not chosen to lead this force because of her standing within High Elven society, but because she was in a small minority who saw the Horde as a threat and she was dispatched to get her out of everyone's hair because she was bothering them...something which has become a hallmark of the character in her relationship with her people. Following the Horde's direct attack on Quel'thalas, the Kingdom threw it's full might into the war effort but as soon as the Alliance won they sought an excuse to leave and once they did so they departed really fast.

And in Warcraft 3 the story of the High Elves, what Lady Liadrin rightfully called the 'last act of the high elves' in the Blood Elf heritage questline (which details the end of the High Elves as they were), was brought to a conclusion with the destruction of their kingdom, their near extinction, the change of name into Blood Elves and their departure from the Alliance. So yes, High Elves were a huge part of the story of Warcraft 3 but I fail to see why you are citing those events as supporting your argument that High Elves are an iconic Alliance race.

Gnomes in contrast are an iconic Alliance race because they have been visible members of the Alliance since Warcraft 2 and have been a playable Alliance race since the beginning of World of Warcraft. The contribution of the Gnomes to the Alliance has also been far, far greater than what the High Elves ever offered. Leaving aside the technology they bring to the table, in Warcraft 3, the game you mention they didn't appear in, they contributed. Because you gloss over the lore reason why they didn't appear, their decision to face the Trogg invasion of Gnomeregan alone and to not distract their allies from the critical fight against the Burning Legion. And were they reproachful to the Alliance because of this? Did they blame the Alliance for their loss? Nope, to this day they still fight by the side of the Alliance, unwavering in their loyalty.

They have absolutely earned their status as an iconic race of the Alliance over the years and far more deserving of it than the race that literally switched sides and is currently waging war on the Alliance.

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Then I guess those High Elves that still exist with blue eyes, as members of the Alliance, who are in no way associated with the Blood Elves don't exist!

They are in every way associated with the Blood Elves. That is the point and the problem.

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There's also the deep history of the humans and High Elves having a 3000 year alliance. Players have consistently made the playable High Elf Alliance request because they are an iconic Alliance race.

?

The Troll Wars were thousands of years ago and after it was over the Elves buggered off back to Quel'thalas and their isolationism. They maintained relations, but there was no Alliance. If any human cities could be seen as approximating allies for the High Elves it would have been Dalaran, because of a shared interest in magic, and Lordaeron due to their shared proximity to each other.

The people of Lordaeron of course comprised the bulk of the Alliance forces in Warcraft 2.

And the people of Lordaeron are currently playable. In fact, when the Blood Elves were added back in TBC, one NPC in the game wistfully talked of working with their old elf friends again. These are the NPCs you see spawned for big events, who wander around throwing an idle comment or two while it is going on.

Could you recall for me whom the people of Lordaeron are now and which faction they serve and whom they follow?

[Combatbutler]

Then I guess those High Elves that still exist with blue eyes, as members of the Alliance, who are in no way associated with the Blood Elves don't exist!

Even the most militant of high elves love Quel'thalas. High elves are tied to the blood elves, a cut from blood elves is possible after several generations, but the high elves of today have parents, siblings, spouses, friends etc. that ultimately tie them to the blood elves.

[Varx]

You guys are right lore-wise high elves are an iconic alliance race. However, also lore-wise, they are physically identical to blood elves, a core Horde race.

Now between the two the belves are the playable ones. Making the helves playable is asking for the panda treatment as they have no dramatic physical difference that could justify them as an AR like every other AR has.

Also there is no lore reason to give them a new rig from belves. KT humans are still humans but at least there's reasoning as to why they're fat and have a unique rig.

Giving helves an unjustified new skeleton just to pander to you helfers is just raping the integrity of WoW to appease your unhealthy obsession.

[Katchii]

Not as a whole. They abandoned the Alliance as a nation. Based on old numbers, 10% of the remaining population was still allied with the Alliance, which is a big percentage. With the new retcons, we have a bunch more Alliance High Elves that survived. That's part of the reason you've continued to see High Elves on the Alliance side through the expansions of WoW. It would be silly for one of our iconic races to just *poof* disappear. It wouldn't make sense.

So you acknowledge that the High Elves abandoned the Alliance. I'll get more into this in a sec.

Did you ever play WCII? Your army was basically footmen and archers. It was half an army of elves. And your core water unit was an elven destroyer. All your scouting was done with rangers. The elven ballistas were your main siege unit. They were some of the most core units on Alliance side. In the WCIII expansion, the only "Alliance" campaign you could even play was all blood elf, all the time. Even them leaving the Alliance was the Alliance campaign.

It was pretty obvious pre TBC that the blood elves that didn't join Kael'thas were going to rejoin the Alliance for the xpac. Faction population killed that, but it was the right call. I played Alliance on a PvP server and the Horde numbers were abysmal.

You're referencing the Second War campaign as if it's still true. Yes the High Elves were allied with the Alliance in the second war. So what?

You're also making statements about the WCIII campaign that are factually untrue. During the WCIII campaign, High Elves were still High Elves. In WCIII:Frozen Throne, the campaign was you taking an active part in the High Elves leaving the Alliance and renaming themselves Blood Elves. It was not all Blood Elves, all the time. You're literally experiencing the fact that High Elves willfully left the Alliance, for a VERY good reason, and renaming themselves Blood Elves. Highlighting the fact that Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

Personally I think any Alliance aligned High Elf is a traitor to their race based on the events of that campaign. Though I would understand why those who weren't witness to those events would come back at the Horde aligned Blood Elves and say that the Blood Elves are the traitors.....politics

There's also the deep history of the humans and High Elves having a 3000 year alliance. Players have consistently made the playable High Elf Alliance request because they are an iconic Alliance race.

And that alliance ended quite swiftly when a human commander tried to commit genocide against them. Deep history may be there, but it's not exactly a good one or one that lends itself well to High Elves being part of the Alliance.

Just because they WERE an iconic race, doesn't mean they still ARE.

That said, I don't care if they become an Alliance Allied Race or not, there's enough lore to support them being there.

[Traycor]

Highlighting the fact that Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

I'll reply to that with a quote from the OP:

Groups

When we talk about High Elves and Blood Elves, we're really talking about three distinct groups:

1. WCII elves
2. WCIII Blood Elves
3. MMO Blood Elves

Group 1: the elves of WCII are the High Elves of today. These include the farstriders who left and the magi of Dalaran. Group 3: the blood elves of today's mmo WoW did not get involved in the first, second, and third wars (with some rare exceptions) because they didn't want to be involved.

Group 2: the blood elves of WCIII became the villainous blood elves of Outland and the Isle of Quel'Danas that remained loyal to Kael'Thas. They drew from both other groups, so some were from Dalaran and some were from Silvermoon. Group 3: the blood elves of today's mmo didn't go quite as full-on Kael'Thas. Group 3 also stayed home.

Group 3: the MMO WoW blood elves are the ones who joined the Horde. We don't really have examples of them prior to WoW itself, because the ones we did see in WCIII all died. Void Elves also fall under Group 3.

The history of these three groups throughout the franchise is very distinct with very little overlap. Group 1: the High Elves honored their old alliance to the humans and went off to fight their wars. They lived in Dalaran and mingled with human kingdoms. That's in sharp contrast to the (Group 3) Blood Elves that were isolationist and thought the whole humie-loving thing was madness. Group 2: the WCIII blood elves that followed Kael were kinda in the middle of these two groups. They had no problem romping around everywhere, but they also had no problem with Kael's crazy, which they fell into.

Players asking for playable High Elves as an Allied Race are looking to play members of Group 1. This is something we cannot do with Group 3, the Blood Elves of WoW or the Void Elves. They are different, and they have done different things, had different loyalties, and had different affiliations throughout the franchise.

Just because they WERE an iconic race, doesn't mean they still ARE.

So basically you're saying that they were an iconic Alliance race, but an iconic Alliance race was not made playable. That is true. But they are still there and have been throughout WoW, on the Alliance side. We just can't play them right now.

[Combatbutler]

When we talk about High Elves and Blood Elves, we're really talking about three distinct groups:


Group 1: the elves of WCII are the High Elves of today. These include the farstriders who left and the magi of Dalaran. Group 3: the blood elves of today's mmo WoW did not get involved in the first, second, and third wars (with some rare exceptions) because they didn't want to be involved.

And this here is already wrong, most of the sunreavers lived in dalaran for centuries, some of them taught the first humans magic and are horde aligned, Lor'themar theron the guy that leads the blood elves today, was part of the Rangers that fought alongside the Alliance during the second war for example and used to be a close friend to Alleria.

You try to make a clear distinction, which simply does not exist. Many among the blood elves of today fought and bled beside the Alliance.

[Traycor]

You mention Gnomes didn't exist in Warcraft 1. Neither did High Elves. Citing Warcraft 1 as you did proves my point, the expectation of what you THINK should be there is colouring your perceptions of what actually was there. The only races that existed in Warcraft 1 were Orcs and Humans.

You're probably right. In a game with orcs and ogres, you knew there were elves out there that would eventually help the humans out. And sure enough, they were there in the second game with a big contribution. That being said, I thought Blizzard mentioned them on the web somewhere before WCII. I was a kid and that was a long time ago.

So yes, High Elves were a huge part of the story of Warcraft 3 but I fail to see why you are citing those events as supporting your argument that High Elves are an iconic Alliance race.

So, because they had a good story on the Alliance side... that means they aren't part of the history of the Alliance in WCII & WCIII? Only if they locked arms and said "Alliance4evah!" would they be an iconic Alliance race? If you played Alliance during all those years, High Elves were very playable and an important part of the story.

Gnomes in contrast are an iconic Alliance race because they have been visible members of the Alliance since Warcraft 2 and have been a playable Alliance race since the beginning of World of Warcraft.

By no measure were they an "iconic Alliance race" before WoW. They came totally out of left field in the mmo. Everyone was shocked. It was only later they had to retcon them into the backstory to help it make sense. You stated that High Elves were not playable in the original game because they were not iconic Alliance, which is blatantly false. It also directly then implies that gnomes were playable because they were Alliance iconic, which they certainly were not at the time. They barely even existed in Warcraft before WoW was released.

Since then, of course the gnomes have been a core part of the Alliance. I myself have mained a gnome since Beta.

[Varx]

"Helfers wanna play the group 1 elves since those are the alliance alligned thalassian elves"

I get the concept you're trying to sell. But it's like someone demanding to have access to regular gilneans or kul tirans when you already have the regular human model as stormwind humans.

Belves and helves do have their differences but they're both pale skinned blonde elves and if that's the kind of race you wanna play then "the horde is waiting for you".

Plz leave lore wants and needs from player mechanics.

[ercarp]

OP updated with some of the excellent art by @ercarp from last year.

Thank you! I'm thrilled to have been a part of all this. Keep fighting the good fight, I'm certain we'll get our high elves sooner or later.

[Katchii]

When we talk about High Elves and Blood Elves, we're really talking about three distinct groups:

1. WCII elves
2. WCIII Blood Elves
3. MMO Blood Elves

Group 1: the elves of WCII are the High Elves of today. These include the farstriders who left and the magi of Dalaran. Group 3: the blood elves of today's mmo WoW did not get involved in the first, second, and third wars (with some rare exceptions) because they didn't want to be involved.

Citation for this. I've seen no information to suggest that the Blood Elves that joined the Horde had absolutely no relation to, or are the same High Elves from WCII. This just seems like a convenient split of groups to push the narrative that High Elves are an iconic Alliance race.

Group 2: the blood elves of WCIII became the villainous blood elves of Outland and the Isle of Quel'Danas that remained loyal to Kael'Thas. They drew from both other groups, so some were from Dalaran and some were from Silvermoon. Group 3: the blood elves of today's mmo didn't go quite as full-on Kael'Thas. Group 3 also stayed home.

Seems reasonable, but again, is there a citation somewhere?

Group 3: the MMO WoW blood elves are the ones who joined the Horde. We don't really have examples of them prior to WoW itself, because the ones we did see in WCIII all died. Void Elves also fall under Group 3.

I don't understand how that's possible. If every High Elf that renamed themselves a Blood Elf died, why does the Blood Elf name live on? How does it stand to reason that we've literally seen nothing of this group before WoW when the High Elves were part of the second war and the third war? Part of WC3 happened in Quel'thalas, you're saying that none of the Blood Elves we see today had anything to do with that or didn't exist at that time?

Again, this just seems like a pretty convenient split of the groups to make the narrative easier to explain.

I don't think it's quite so simple.

The history of these three groups throughout the franchise is very distinct with very little overlap. Group 1: the High Elves honored their old alliance to the humans and went off to fight their wars. They lived in Dalaran and mingled with human kingdoms. That's in sharp contrast to the (Group 3) Blood Elves that were isolationist and thought the whole humie-loving thing was madness. Group 2: the WCIII blood elves that followed Kael were kinda in the middle of these two groups. They had no problem romping around everywhere, but they also had no problem with Kael's crazy, which they fell into.

This really just highlights that the WoW universe has the same bigotry and fracturing of race populations as real life humans do. It doesn't really explain the clean splitting of the two groups, and doesn't accommodate the possibility that some didn't care, didn't switch sides, just did what they were told, were just trying to make a living, etc...

Players asking for playable High Elves as an Allied Race are looking to play members of Group 1. This is something we cannot do with Group 3, the Blood Elves of WoW or the Void Elves. They are different, and they have done different things, had different loyalties, and had different affiliations throughout the franchise.

Based on everything I've read, there's nothing to suggest that Group 3 is exclusive from Group 1. That said, High Elves and Blood elves are the same race, you're just asking for the Alliance aligned piece of that race to be represented as an Alliance Allied Race.

The race already exists as playable as Blood Elves.

I get what you're saying, but as a RACE, they are the same thing.

So basically you're saying that they were an iconic Alliance race, but an iconic Alliance race was not made playable. That is true. But they are still there and have been throughout WoW, on the Alliance side. We just can't play them right now.

I never said the bolded. To be frank, High Elves were never an iconic Alliance race because the only time they fought in a war was as an ally TO the Alliance, not as part OF the Alliance. There is a faction of High Elves that maintain that relationship in Dalaran, but High Elves were never technically part of the Alliance.

That said, Zandalari fit the same role in the Horde now, they're not part of the Horde, but they are allied to it.

I agree that the main reason Alliance High Elves haven't been added really boils down to "I don't want to." Which I'm fine with, but don't really care either way. It makes sense lore wise for them to be there, but if they are never added, it's not going to affect me in any meaningful way.

[Traycor]

"Helfers wanna play the group 1 elves since those are the alliance alligned thalassian elves"

I get the concept you're trying to sell. But it's like someone demanding to have access to regular gilneans or kul tirans when you already have the regular human model as stormwind humans.

Belves and helves do have their differences but they're both pale skinned blonde elves and if that's the kind of race you wanna play then "the horde is waiting for you".

Plz leave lore wants and needs from player mechanics.

You're not wrong. That why this thread was created, to brainstorm ways to make a High Elf Allied Race have a unique flavor while still remaining true to the High Elves. The @ercarp art pieces in the OP are some of the best examples of this.

Kul'Tirans weren't different enough, so they whipped up a new model. That's certainly possible here.

[Ielenia]

It is important to emphasise yet again that High Elves are NOT an iconic Alliance race.

Deny it all you want, but they ARE an iconic Alliance race. They've been around since Warcraft II.

[Obelisk Kai]

Deny it all you want, but they ARE an iconic Alliance race. They've been around since Warcraft II.

I am denying it. Warcraft 3 clearly establishes this group left the Alliance, renamed themselves Blood Elves and joined the Horde.

Saying they are an 'iconic Alliance race' is akin to saying Italy was an 'iconic Allied power' during World War 2 because they fought for the Allies in the First World War, neglecting the little problem they were on the other side in World War 2.

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You're probably right. In a game with orcs and ogres, you knew there were elves out there that would eventually help the humans out. And sure enough, they were there in the second game with a big contribution. That being said, I thought Blizzard mentioned them on the web somewhere before WCII. I was a kid and that was a long time ago.

There is no probably about it. Warcraft 1 had only Orcs, Humans and Ogres. There were no mentions of Dwarves, Elves or Trolls at all and I double checked the Warcraft 1 manual (https://wow.gamepedia.com/Warcraft:_..._Humans_manual) to see if they were even included in the background lore which, they weren't.

And no, saying there were elves out there simply because there were Ogres isn't a good enough argument. That there ended up being some is irrelevant because at the time of Warcraft 1, their existence could not even be inferred.

So, because they had a good story on the Alliance side... that means they aren't part of the history of the Alliance in WCII & WCIII? Only if they locked arms and said "Alliance4evah!" would they be an iconic Alliance race? If you played Alliance during all those years, High Elves were very playable and an important part of the story.

We didn't 'play Alliance during those years'. You played the Human faction in Warcraft 3 RTS. And the problem with your argument here is that their story in Warcraft 3, which IS an important tale, LITERALLY details their departure from the Alliance. It's like arguing the United Kingdom is an iconic member of the European Union who has made an important contribution to the story of the European Union and using the Brexit saga as your evidence!

By no measure were they an "iconic Alliance race" before WoW. They came totally out of left field in the mmo. Everyone was shocked. It was only later they had to retcon them into the backstory to help it make sense. You stated that High Elves were not playable in the original game because they were not iconic Alliance, which is blatantly false. It also directly then implies that gnomes were playable because they were Alliance iconic, which they certainly were not at the time. They barely even existed in Warcraft before WoW was released.

Since then, of course the gnomes have been a core part of the Alliance. I myself have mained a gnome since Beta.

High Elves are not an iconic race in the Alliance, neither Alliance High Elves or Blood Elves. The point I am making with Gnomes is that they went with Gnomes, whom you admit was a shocking development, over Alliance High Elves as the fourth playable Alliance race. If Alliance High Elves were iconic at the genesis of WoW and Gnomes weren't why did they make that decision? Perhaps because Warcraft 3 had just told the story of their departure from that very same Alliance, therefore disproving the idea they were iconic?

[Traycor]

The Alliance WILL eventually get high elves...You can all come back to this post in 2-3 years and then PM me that I was right.

Hopefully someone remembers to quote you when they are announced

[FlubberPuddy]

Do you have a counter-argument beyond that?

Even easier counter-argument than Traycors: Ogres are considered iconic for the Horde yet are still not playable and have FAR LESS screen-time in WoW with the Horde than Alliance have had with the High Elves.

Such a silly statement to say High Elves aren't iconic to Alliance. I just linked a video post at Blizzcon 2013 where Chris Metzen himself still included High Elves in within the other races of the Alliance, bringing the past to the present.

[chase_the_mofo]

Why is this thread still going on


Quite interesting...

[FlubberPuddy]

Just because they WERE an iconic race, doesn't mean they still ARE.

I just find it silly to say they still aren't an iconic race. They've been, and continue to be, the single most requested race on Alliance side. Hell, they're still the most requested race in the entire game. The developers have always acknowledged this, even post Ion "horde is waiting for you".

I linked a video showing that Chris Metzen at Blizzcon 2013 (6 years since Blood Elves release) referred to High Elves on part of the Alliance. The crowd also not going crazy when he asked for fans of High Elves because everyone knows when bringing up "High Elf" it's referring to Alliance High Elves.

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It also directly then implies that gnomes were playable because they were Alliance iconic, which they certainly were not at the time. They barely even existed in Warcraft before WoW was released.

Since then, of course the gnomes have been a core part of the Alliance. I myself have mained a gnome since Beta.

Because Obelisk is thinking the decisions Blizzard made during Vanilla WoW which were gameplay focused is taking it as being story focused. The Alliance already had "Elves" in the form of NE, which is why then Blizzard went with Gnomes a sort of iconic race in the sense that Gnomes are iconic of the fantasy genre.

If you listen to Kevin Jordan and other Vanilla WoW designers you will see that almost every decision they made early for WoW's life was "what can appeal to the masses?" They were at the time trying to reach as many players as they could within the game with all their design decisions. They would always ask something like, "how many players will this affect".

So if one side already has Elves, of course they're not going to add in another Elf race. Gnomes, being the "cute small race" filled a niche not already served. That's how early WoW was designed.

If Obelisk took the time to understand the context under the design decisions then he could separate them by gameplay vs lore decisions. I've even heard that Vanilla WoW didn't have much of a cohesive narrative at all, that's how focused the developers at the time were on gameplay rather than narrative.