1. #9841
    The Patient Astranea's Avatar
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    So the Alliance gets the High Elves... and since we love elves and all want more elves... the Horde gets the San’layn!

    Works for me really. Where do I sign up? ^^

  2. #9842
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Conversely, all the proposals put forward as being substantive within this thread rely upon the conceit that what you acknowledge to be superficial differences are enough.
    As amazing and powerful as I am, Blizzard is the one determining that superficial differences are enough to be a separate "Race". Look at the Kul Tirans. Fat is considered a race. They really should have labeled them as allied fractions, since all of the ARs are just offshoots of a parent race. At least until Vulpera, who actually will be a new race.

  3. #9843
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    There is a question of scale in that the only observed change was a change in eye colour. We have seen what happens to a thalassian elf when they overdose on fel, they turn into a felblood elf. Compared to what happened to the Orcs, it is like a small nightcap compared to a all weekend drinking binge.
    The comparison between felblood Elves and "Normal" green Orcs is wrong. The orc version of a felblood Elf would be similar to a Fel Orc. They both "overdosed" on demonic blood but Orcs like Thrall never consumed any felblood and still ended up green.

    Also, Word of God explicitly stated that the situation of Blood Elven green eyes is extremely similar to the Orcs green skin:

    "The situation regarding blood elf eyes is, in fact, extremely similar to that of the green skin of orcs: just being around heavy use of fel magic turned the eyes of the blood elves green. You could be the most pious of priests or most outdoorsy of Farstriders, chances are, if you were a high elf in Quel'Thalas or Outland following the Third War, you were around fel energies, and your eyes would turn green. Like the orcs' skin color, such an effect would take a very long time to wear off. Fel magic works a bit like radiation in this sense; it permeates the area and seeps into anything in the vicinity. Anything near a source of fel magic shows signs of slight corruption, it just so happens that high elves and orcs manifest it in a very visual way."

    That Blood Elves didn't turn completely green doesn't necessarily mean that the average Blood Elf was any less fel corrupted than the average Orc before the Sunwell was cleansed at the end of TBC. Orcs and Elves seem to show the effect of Fel corruption in different ways. Orcs for instance have a whole range of eye colors. Do you have a lore source stating the fel corruption of Blood Elves was less than that of Orcs like Thrall ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Secondly, I very clearly stated that one of the key differences between an Allied race and it's parent race is that while you may go from one to the other, you cannot go back again. A Highmountain Tauren cannot become a Mulgore Tauren. A Green skinned Orc cannot get it's brown skin back. A void elf is not going to un-void.
    Orcs are an Allied race now ? I must have missed that memo . Also, Word of God explicitly stated that the Orc's green skin color can wear off, just that it takes a very long time.

    "Like the orcs' skin color, such an effect would take a very long time to wear off." -- Ask CDev round 3.


    From Fel we know it can be cleansed/purged ever since Elune transformed a Satyr back into a Night-Elf so purging/cleansing the Void might be possible as well. The Sataka the Lighteater questline in Legion shows that there are several methods a Dark Naaru can be turned back into a (Light) Naaru such as purging the Void or drawing out void energy. Void-Purged Krokul also exist so it seems purging the Void completely or partially is not impossible although Blizzard of course would never completely remove the void from Void Elves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    And we know from 'In the Shadow of the Sun' that Alliance High Elves are also feeding on the Sunwell again. They took will likely end up with golden eyes, as they are the same race as the Blood Elves.
    That's possible but High Elves were never fel corrupted so their starting situation was/is different which may affect their ability to gain golden eyes. We'll see what happens in-game. Arator the Redeemer seems to currently have golden/yellow eyes, but he's a half-elf and his eye color seems to change constantly (it was green in the 3 sisters comic and TBC but changed to blue in patch 3.1.0 and to golden/yellow in BFA). It could also be that he was kind of lightforged after Legion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    As for your claim that the golden eyes are restricted and not a racial feature, the fact that in game anyone who isn't a Demon Hunter, even a Warlock, can use golden eyes shows that this is not the case. I would advise you that if you claim that golden eyes are therefore only available to Blood Elves of all classes as a courtesy to the player and not indicative of lore (which would not explain why Demon Hunters are excluded, as that exclusion is clearly lore based) then any lore based objections to blue eyes for Blood Elves on your part would evaporate and that customization option should also be extended to Blood Elf players as the same courtesy once a separate eye colour customization option for all races becomes available.
    My mistake, I remembered Jeremy Feasel saying they only added golden eyes to some paladins and priests when he explained the lore behind the Blood Elves Golden Eyes. It does seem the golden eye customization option was made available to the players because of storyine reasons.

    "So the quest to explain that actually happened way back in Sunwell Plateau when Anveena sacrificed herself to cleanse the Sunwell. That's what caused the blood elves to finally lose their fel energy and gain these sort of golden eyes, and you'll start to see that a little bit with some of the paladin and priest blood elf NPCs that are going to be showing up in Battle for Azeroth. They'll have the golden eyes, and then of course the customization option will be available for players because the storyline says that that's where they should be now. But if you want to keep your green eyes because you're a blood elf warlock and that feels right, you do you." -- Trade Chat Interview
    "I guess only blood elves feel like the odd man out for the Horde. I hope that we've engineered that into it as deftly as we could, but you know, it's the equivalent of a bunch of white chicks hanging out with goblin or tauren. It's weird." -- Chris Metzen

  4. #9844
    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    As amazing and powerful as I am, Blizzard is the one determining that superficial differences are enough to be a separate "Race". Look at the Kul Tirans. Fat is considered a race. They really should have labeled them as allied fractions, since all of the ARs are just offshoots of a parent race. At least until Vulpera, who actually will be a new race.
    Allied Factions. Exactly. And if we don't feel High Elves are distinct enough, just give them a new model. Problem solved. (Even though some new animations would be all it would actually take to change the silhouette)

  5. #9845
    Quote Originally Posted by Astranea View Post
    So the Alliance gets the High Elves... and since we love elves and all want more elves... the Horde gets the San’layn!

    Works for me really. Where do I sign up? ^^
    Same. High elves and san'layn/forsaken elves

  6. #9846
    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    Except that there's no reason for there to be separate models when considering Blood Elves ARE High Elves. Changing how High Elves looked would; by proxy and Blizzards own statements, be changing how Blood Elves looked as they are the same race.
    No reason for the fat/skinny human models either. Yet we have a bunch of different models for humans. The old skinny defias model, the old fat farmer model, the new kul'tiran model, the new lanky/skinny model and the stormwind human model--all of these are humans.

    No reason you can't have a new high elf model.

  7. #9847
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    Except that there's no reason for there to be separate models when considering Blood Elves ARE High Elves. Changing how High Elves looked would; by proxy and Blizzards own statements, be changing how Blood Elves looked as they are the same race.
    Per Blizzard's own statements, Kul'Tirans are not meant to be a different race. They just created different models for more diversity.

    "Non-playable Kul Tiran human models include thin, normal and fat body types. The playable Kul Tiran use the fat body type. They are not intended to be a separate race, they are simply variants on Kul Tirans made because Blizzard wanted bigger and smaller models to fit the various NPC roles and add more flavor to the world. They are not biologically different from other humans.[7][8]"

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kul_Tiran_(playable)

  8. #9848
    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    Except that there's no reason for there to be separate models when considering Blood Elves ARE High Elves. Changing how High Elves looked would; by proxy and Blizzards own statements, be changing how Blood Elves looked as they are the same race.
    Face it dude, physiological changes due to magic, environment, or lifestyle is a better argument for a separate AR than fat and skinny. Humans can come in all kinds of flavors, and I wouldn't mind a skinny "race" of humans added too.

  9. #9849
    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Keep asking for them folks. We will get them, one day or another. whether it is by new costumisation options or as a new allied race.
    I can only hope Silvermoon is turned into a new warfront in the end and the sunwell corrupted again, allowing void elves to grow in number and possibly opening the way to new skin options for them.

    The blood elves would be exiled to Suramar so that each faction would have an elven capital magic.
    "We want Horde's model AND we also want their city!!!!" and you wonder why high elfers face so much resistance from the community and Blizzard..... smh

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Traycor View Post
    Allied Factions. Exactly. And if we don't feel High Elves are distinct enough, just give them a new model. Problem solved. (Even though some new animations would be all it would actually take to change the silhouette)
    If Blizzard were to make high elfs "fat" to differentiate them from blood elfs (just as Kul Tirans have been differentiated from regular SW humans), would you be happy? These "fat" high elfs would still have all the same lore, but their models would be made to look appropriately different from blood elfs to maintain faction identity between Horde and Alliance. I'm gonna go on a whim and say that most high elfers would be pissed if "fat" high elfs were implemented (despite all the lore remaining the same).... and if this is the case then it really is about the model and not about the lore. Further proof that a lot of high elfers are happy with light skin options for void elfs (which would go against void elf lore and wouldn't be the "lore" elfs that they so claim to want).

    How about high elfers start petitioning for "fat" high elfs? That way you get all the lore you "desperately" wanted whilst Horde don't have to jeopardize their faction identity just to satisfy the loud minority that is high elfers.

    Even then, lore wise the high elven story as a collective whole should predominantly be given to the blood elfs, who are the continuation of high elven society following the events of WCIII. In a blizzcon panel back in 2007?? (TBC blizzcon) Chris Metzen said (while talking about the new Horde race blood elfs) "Blood elfs ARE our high elfs". Blizzards intention was to continue the high elven storyline through the blood elfs... who are still high elfs but changed their name in honor of their fallen kin. Alliance aligned high elfs are nothing but a broken fragment of the main high elven branch, and subsequently any story time focused on them should not come at the expense of taking away story focus from the blood elfs. Like Metzen said... blood elfs are our high elfs and I'd like to maintain that identity for the blood elfs thank you. As things currently stand, I'm okay with high elfs (what little of them are left) to get some story from time to time (as NPCs), but taking that a step further to making them playable is a big fat "no no" from me, as blood elfs already fulfill the high elf trope in the WoW universe. Void elfs already eat into this trope as is.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Per Blizzard's own statements, Kul'Tirans are not meant to be a different race. They just created different models for more diversity.

    "Non-playable Kul Tiran human models include thin, normal and fat body types. The playable Kul Tiran use the fat body type. They are not intended to be a separate race, they are simply variants on Kul Tirans made because Blizzard wanted bigger and smaller models to fit the various NPC roles and add more flavor to the world. They are not biologically different from other humans.[7][8]"

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kul_Tiran_(playable)
    Guess you'll have to settle with "fat" high elfs if you want a slimmer of a chance them ever being playable then.

    Blizzard could have just given SW humans different hair colors, different skin tones, some sailor tattoos and called it them Kul Tirans (does this sound familiar??). But no, apparently that wasn't enough to make a new race who are biologically the same as SW humans.. they had to go to the extreme (for lack of a better word) of making Kul Tirans several feet taller and several feet wider.
    Last edited by Strippling; 2019-04-30 at 11:12 PM.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  10. #9850
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    Guess you'll have to settle with "fat" high elfs if you want a slimmer of a chance them ever being playable then.

    Blizzard could have just given SW humans different hair colors, different skin tones, some sailor tattoos and called it them Kul Tirans (does this sound familiar??). But no, apparently that wasn't enough to make a new race who are biologically the same as SW humans.. they had to go to the extreme (for lack of a better word) of making Kul Tirans several feet taller and several feet wider.
    Blizzard hasn't settled for "fat" High Elves, so there's nothing to settle for.

    They also haven't closed the book on the High Elf conversation with players per Alex's encouragement so how about letting people ask for what they want to ask for? Blizzard makes the decision in the end, not whoever all of us players thinks is the "right decision."

    There's lots of ways Blizzard could have chosen to represent Kul'Tirans and we would be accepting of it either way because that's the reality. Now we can see like how people still complain about Nightborne, that just because players get a race they want, it doesn't mean they're gonna stop asking for it to be improved.

    All anyone can do is use examples to show what they want, and all other people can do is either support that or not. If you feel like making "fat" high elfs is the way then go ahead and campaign for it.

    It doesn't change anything for those that are coming up with their idea of how they'd like High Elves to be playable. And it sure as hell doesn't change what Blizzard ends up doing about it anyway, whether that's doing something about it or not.

    Also

    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    the loud minority that is high elfers
    This is false. Jeremy Feasel acknowledged that High Elves are a "community favorite". Therefore if they're a community favorite there can't be only a "minority" that wants them. Being a favorite literally means, "preferred before all others of the same kind".

    GODDAMN That's High Elves for ya!



    "just an acknowledgement that it's a community favorite as far as ideas go for the future "

  11. #9851
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post

    This is false. Jeremy Feasel acknowledged that High Elves are a "community favorite". Therefore if they're a community favorite there can't be only a "minority" that wants them. Being a favorite literally means, "preferred before all others of the same kind".

    GODDAMN That's High Elves for ya!



    "just an acknowledgement that it's a community favorite as far as ideas go for the future "
    Firstly, he said high elfs are a community favorite... not the community favorite. Big difference.

    Secondly, high elfs face the most resistance out of any requested AR. So conversely high elfs are a community dislike, which is equally factually correct as saying high elfs are a community favorite.

    Thirdly, Ion reiterated in a recent Forbes interview that the Horde-Alliance faction is an integral aspect of WoW. This is the same guy who said high elfs blur faction lines. Given he is the lead developer of WoW... it's safe to say his word or opinion on any matter (such as high elfs) is a representative opinion of the WoW developers as a whole. Yes some devs might be for high elfs, but it's safe to assume that the majority are problem against them and as such the WoW dev team collectively had agreed that they blur faction lines. Many of the WoW community feel the same way too, hence the strong backlash high elf requests receive. I understand "we're just requesting something we really want to play", but sometimes (actually most times) core game aspects (such as faction identity) trump a few players who really want to play a high elf.... especially given "blood elfs are our high elfs" (Metzen 2007).

    Fourthly, I can confidently say high elfers are a "loud minority". The official high elf petition had around 670 signatures (a pathetic number for something that is apparently a "community favorite"). On top of this, the high elf thread in the official forum is mostly comprised of the same 10-20 people arguing back and forth (much like this thread). So despite the large number of comments, the mainly come from a small group of people debating back and forth... So despite what you think, the support for high elfs is really only from a small group of hardcore fans (ie loud minority). Comparatively, the classic WoW petition had over 200,000 signatures (dwarfing the high elf petition by nearly 300 times over)... and yet it took Blizzard years before they finally did something and announced WoW classic.
    Blood elves are our high elves - Chris Metzen

  12. #9852
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    As amazing and powerful as I am, Blizzard is the one determining that superficial differences are enough to be a separate "Race". Look at the Kul Tirans. Fat is considered a race. They really should have labeled them as allied fractions, since all of the ARs are just offshoots of a parent race. At least until Vulpera, who actually will be a new race.
    Kul Tiran Humans have lived on an island by themselves for over two thousand years. The Kul Tirans who are super sized seem to be the product of that isolation, a key point of differentiation. Clearly it's something in the Kul Tiran water that has led them to become as big as they are in the two millenia of separation.

    Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves have been apart for what, ten, fifteen years? And they've been alive for thousands of years too so the past couple of years are a blink of the eye to them.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Strippling View Post
    snip
    Hey my old tweet to Jeremy Feasel. Haven't thought about that in over a year. I pretty much forgot about it because shortly after this tweet, Ion told us 'Blood Elves are High Elves' and everything else pretty much became irrelevant.

    You have to remember the context of the time Strippling. Before that interview, the pro High Elf community had convinced itself they were making progress and were about to win. They truly expected a climbdown on the matter of Alliance High Elves. They had forum posts! They had artwork! They had that manifest for High Elves which they kept circulating as if it meant anything. Ion's response was like hitting a brick wall for them. It was even worse because all he did was repeat what he said in the Jessie Cox broadcast (there was a little added snark), thereby proving all the art that had been done and all the forum spam hadn't moved Blizzard a single scintilla.

    Of course nothing heals the pro High Elf movement like time and since enough time has elapsed, the fantasy that Blizzard has changed their minds behind the scenes and is looking for the appropriate moment to announce that change of heart has taken root once again. Now that Blizzcon has been announced I am sure the same factors at play on this topic will be happening again and for the seventh or eighth year since I twigged this debate is a thing, someone is going to proclaim Alliance High Elves are DEFINITELY coming this time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    The comparison between felblood Elves and "Normal" green Orcs is wrong. The orc version of a felblood Elf would be similar to a Fel Orc. They both "overdosed" on demonic blood but Orcs like Thrall never consumed any felblood and still ended up green.

    Also, Word of God explicitly stated that the situation of Blood Elven green eyes is extremely similar to the Orcs green skin:

    "The situation regarding blood elf eyes is, in fact, extremely similar to that of the green skin of orcs: just being around heavy use of fel magic turned the eyes of the blood elves green. You could be the most pious of priests or most outdoorsy of Farstriders, chances are, if you were a high elf in Quel'Thalas or Outland following the Third War, you were around fel energies, and your eyes would turn green. Like the orcs' skin color, such an effect would take a very long time to wear off. Fel magic works a bit like radiation in this sense; it permeates the area and seeps into anything in the vicinity. Anything near a source of fel magic shows signs of slight corruption, it just so happens that high elves and orcs manifest it in a very visual way."

    That Blood Elves didn't turn completely green doesn't necessarily mean that the average Blood Elf was any less fel corrupted than the average Orc before the Sunwell was cleansed at the end of TBC. Orcs and Elves seem to show the effect of Fel corruption in different ways. Orcs for instance have a whole range of eye colors. Do you have a lore source stating the fel corruption of Blood Elves was less than that of Orcs like Thrall ?
    Yet Orcish green skin appears to be permanent, and Blood Elf colour is not as the shift from green to golden demonstrated. We can also see that the fel taint within Blood Elves is indeed wearing off, because unlike the Orcs they are hooked up to the super cleansing powers of the Sunwell.



    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    Orcs are an Allied race now ? I must have missed that memo . Also, Word of God explicitly stated that the Orc's green skin color can wear off, just that it takes a very long time.

    "Like the orcs' skin color, such an effect would take a very long time to wear off." -- Ask CDev round 3.
    Given that it hasn't worn off on Orcs after over thirty years, the time it would take to wear off is likely longer than the average Orc lifespan. It also appears that the Orcs are passing the taint on to their children, who are also born green. We do not know if the taint will become less pronounced with each generation or if each Orcs carries it anew from birth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    From Fel we know it can be cleansed/purged ever since Elune transformed a Satyr back into a Night-Elf so purging/cleansing the Void might be possible as well. The Sataka the Lighteater questline in Legion shows that there are several methods a Dark Naaru can be turned back into a (Light) Naaru such as purging the Void or drawing out void energy. Void-Purged Krokul also exist so it seems purging the Void completely or partially is not impossible although Blizzard of course would never completely remove the void from Void Elves.
    You could argue that Cenarius's blessing could be removed from Highmountain Tauren, or the light from Lightforged Draenei, or the Arcane from Nightborne. The point remains all of these groups have been differentiated from their parents by some kind of transformative process that is not going to be reversed even if it hypothetically could be. And even if it hypothetically could be, the level of transformation strongly suggests the complexity involved in undoing it means that for the vast majority of those transformed, a way back is essentially impossible. I mean your example from the fel is the time when they invoked a literal God to reverse the transformation although I hesitate to draw a one to one equivalence. Also, the void purged Krokul, were they fully changed by the Void or were they infected by it and the void purged before the transformation completed?



    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    That's possible but High Elves were never fel corrupted so their starting situation was/is different which may affect their ability to gain golden eyes. We'll see what happens in-game. Arator the Redeemer seems to currently have golden/yellow eyes, but he's a half-elf and his eye color seems to change constantly (it was green in the 3 sisters comic and TBC but changed to blue in patch 3.1.0 and to golden/yellow in BFA). It could also be that he was kind of lightforged after Legion.
    Blood Elves were never fel corrupted either, as the Ask CDev answers make clear the manifestation of green eyes is down to fel radiance rather than fel consumption. Fel corruption was the result of drinking the Blood of Mannoroth as the Orcs did.

    Arator is a half elf. We must presume Half Elves are not connected to the Sunwell and so whatever is being done with his eyes, as you recognise as being inconsistent, we cannot use as a basis for judgement. I sincerely doubt he is lightforged.

    Blood Elves and High Elves are the same race, all feed on the Sunwell, Elven eye colour is mutable based on the energies they are exposed to. The Sunwell is a font of holy and arcane energy. Whilst we continue to disagree on the possibility of blue eyes for Blood Elves, what is beyond doubt is that Blood Elves received golden eyes from the Sunwell. As a result, any biological changes the Blood Elves are undergoing, Alliance High Elves are also subject to because they are the same race being exposed to the same process.



    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    My mistake, I remembered Jeremy Feasel saying they only added golden eyes to some paladins and priests when he explained the lore behind the Blood Elves Golden Eyes. It does seem the golden eye customization option was made available to the players because of storyine reasons.

    "So the quest to explain that actually happened way back in Sunwell Plateau when Anveena sacrificed herself to cleanse the Sunwell. That's what caused the blood elves to finally lose their fel energy and gain these sort of golden eyes, and you'll start to see that a little bit with some of the paladin and priest blood elf NPCs that are going to be showing up in Battle for Azeroth. They'll have the golden eyes, and then of course the customization option will be available for players because the storyline says that that's where they should be now. But if you want to keep your green eyes because you're a blood elf warlock and that feels right, you do you." -- Trade Chat Interview
    I believe we discussed this quote earlier, despite his inartful articulation of the events of the Sunwell Plateau (which imply it was Anveen's sacrifice that triggered golden eyes, rather than Velen restoring it with the heart of a holy naaru, source literally every other document on those events in game) he does imply the direction of travel for the Blood Elf people is towards golden eyes, as he talks about Warlocks 'keeping' green eyes rather than Paladins and Priests being exceptional in gaining them. And as Blood Elves are High Elves, they travel that path together with Alliance High Elves.

    There will be no divergence between Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves on a physical level. They are the same people.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-05-01 at 01:14 PM.

  13. #9853
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Kul Tiran Humans have lived on an island by themselves for over two thousand years. The Kul Tirans who are super sized seem to be the product of that isolation, a key point of differentiation. Clearly it's something in the Kul Tiran water that has led them to become as big as they are in the two millenia of separation.
    Clearly there are also Kul'Tiran that look like Stormwind Humans as much, if not more so, than the number of Larger AND Smaller Kul'Tirans. If what you're trying to imply is true then we would have a plethora more of larger/smaller looking Kul'Tiran.

    Come to face with this, because it's very clear even after actual Blizzard's official word that they are of the same race, you continuing to believe they're a different race other than Human is going to look more and more silly.

    Kul'Tirans prove that you do not need to have some magically altered way to develop different body types. Lifestyle is enough. They are the same race as Stormwind Humans, supported by Blizzard developer comments.

    Someone would have to provide Blizzard saying they aren't the same race if they want to continue purporting that they're not the same race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    You have to remember the context of the time Strippling. Before that interview, the pro High Elf community had convinced itself they were making progress and were about to win. They truly expected a climbdown on the matter of Alliance High Elves. They had forum posts! They had artwork! They had that manifest for High Elves which they kept circulating as if it meant anything. Ion's response was like hitting a brick wall for them. It was even worse because all he did was repeat what he said in the Jessie Cox broadcast (there was a little added snark), thereby proving all the art that had been done and all the forum spam hadn't moved Blizzard a single scintilla.
    Nothing that Ion changed or affected Jeremy's comment. As Jeremy said, "as far as ideas go for the future", what did Ion say? "No plans in the near term", what did Jeremy say in the beginning of his tweet response, "No news".

    As I recall even as they were reading the High Elf question it was Josh Allen that mentioned, "this is a popular question" or something to that effect. Indicating that even on that day, Jeremy's comment of "they're a community favorite" rung true.

    Trying to imply that Ion's comment somehow changed what Jeremy said when that was never brought up or mentioned at all is continuing to show a lack of arguing in good faith.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    There will be no divergence between Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves on a physical level. They are the same people.
    If the paragraph you wrote that included "any biological changes the Blood Elves are undergoing, Alliance High Elves are also subject to" were true then there wouldn't be High Elves with blue eyes around still.

    Every single mutation that the Blood Elves went through would have affected all High Elves everywhere. Clearly this is not the case as one can easily see within game and various Blizzard artwork everywhere.

    Therefore the comment quoted here is false. On a physical level, High Elves are not subject to the same eye color changes as Blood Elves, therefore physiologically there is some slight difference.

    You can only be correct in this regard if Blizzard starts showing us High Elves that have Golden Eyes, as per Jeremy Feasel "they'll have golden eyes...because the storyline says that that's where they should be now."

  14. #9854
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Kul Tiran Humans have lived on an island by themselves for over two thousand years. The Kul Tirans who are super sized seem to be the product of that isolation, a key point of differentiation. Clearly it's something in the Kul Tiran water that has led them to become as big as they are in the two millenia of separation.
    Nope. The 3 different body types for Kul Tirans are just to give some flavor and texture to the world.

    Word of God (in this case Travis Day): "So, Thin Man and Fat Man are what we call them internally. And no, they’re not intended to be a different race, [they’re] just variants on Kul Tirans. So, generally, when we’re spawning up Kul Tiras on the design side, we looked at using them as kind of our… maybe it’s a little bit like, ‘The big guy’s the bouncer!’ Or, ‘The big guy’s the ruffian who’s got a little guy up by the neck! And then the little guy’s more the scoundrel and they’re always holding daggers or leanin’ up against something,’ and, I don’t know, it just gives us a little more flavor and texture to the world." -- source

    Also, Kul Tirans were never isolated long enough, if they even were ever isolated, to evolve into a different body type and even if they did evolve the entire island would have evolved into the same direction due to the founder effect, genetic drift, inbreeding and relatively low genetic variation in general. However there are clearly 3 different models for Kul Tiran NPCs.
    "I guess only blood elves feel like the odd man out for the Horde. I hope that we've engineered that into it as deftly as we could, but you know, it's the equivalent of a bunch of white chicks hanging out with goblin or tauren. It's weird." -- Chris Metzen

  15. #9855
    The spitewagon is still going hard I see.

    "Were okay with high elf npcs, but if people play them it hurts us!"

  16. #9856
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Kul'Tirans prove that you do not need to have some magically altered way to develop different body types. Lifestyle is enough. They are the same race as Stormwind Humans, supported by Blizzard developer comments.
    and what lifestyle do elves difere? human bootlicking? cause they still do the same shit, in a minor spawn of time, kul'tirans had thousand of years in harsh conditions doing totally different world of work

    yet, seems that we get a bit fuzzy in the high elf candy, and we forget that kul'tirans do have vrykul/drust ancestry? meaning it was not just lifestyle?

  17. #9857
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    and what lifestyle do elves difere? human bootlicking? cause they still do the same shit, in a minor spawn of time, kul'tirans had thousand of years in harsh conditions doing totally different world of work
    You've been involved with the discussion for so long you should already know what lifestyle differences have been been mentioned. Rehashing that over and over in a circular discussion is not something I'd like to get involved with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    yet, seems that we get a bit fuzzy in the high elf candy, and we forget that kul'tirans do have vrykul/drust ancestry? meaning it was not just lifestyle?
    We just had posts explaining that Travis Day, in an interview, states that Kul'Tirans are not a different race. Where is the proof/evidence that all Kul'Tirans have "vrykul/drust ancestry"?

    What does that even mean? Vrykul or Drust? Vrykul + Drust together? All humans evolved from Vrykul that much I know. Don't know what more you're trying to imply.

  18. #9858
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Kul Tiran Humans have lived on an island by themselves for over two thousand years. The Kul Tirans who are super sized seem to be the product of that isolation, a key point of differentiation. Clearly it's something in the Kul Tiran water that has led them to become as big as they are in the two millenia of separation.

    Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves have been apart for what, ten, fifteen years? And they've been alive for thousands of years too so the past couple of years are a blink of the eye to them.
    Clearly it's something in the Kul Tiran water that has led them to become as big as they are in the two millenia of separation.
    I like how you pulled this out of your butt. Kul Tiran commoners and leaders come in all shapes and sizes. They just made the fat model its own playable "race", even though all of them are humans. But Im glad you agree that variations of the same race should be playable - you can just headcannon it as they drank contaminated water.

    Kul Tiran Humans have lived on an island by themselves for over two thousand years.
    Another lie. Kul Tiras shipped and traded with the mainland for a thousand years, and had settlements in the Eastern Kingdoms and Kalimdor. Blizzard added the mage class to the Kul Tirans after players reminded them that the Kul Tirans founded a mage school/prison in Tol Barad. Kul Tiras was part of the Alliance of Lordaeron until Jaina's treachery lead to the defeat of Daelin Proudmoore less than 15 years ago.

    Kul Tirans prove that fat can be distinct enough to be its own "race". And physique doesnt even need 15 years to give an explanation. Unless High Elves and Blood Elves cull anyone that doesnt look like a physically fit 25 year old elf, here's an opportunity to show skinny, fat, old, and biracial High Elves.

  19. #9859
    The Unstoppable Force Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    You've been involved with the discussion for so long you should already know what lifestyle differences have been been mentioned. Rehashing that over and over in a circular discussion is not something I'd like to get involved with.
    no canon differences have been mentioned, just differences you think they should have

    they still are just the same generic elf, doing magic shenanigans or ranger crap, and again, the kul'tirans had thousand of years, the elves barely had half a decade

    We just had posts explaining that Travis Day, in an interview, states that Kul'Tirans are not a different race. Where is the proof/evidence that all Kul'Tirans have "vrykul/drust ancestry"?
    they said they were not intend to be a different race, this don't mean they didn't become one, yet allied race ar enot just "different race" highmountain tauren didn't stop of being tauren

    the proof/evidence is the dialogue with Ulfar saying the Thornspeakers left the drust and joined the kul'tiran society.

    What does that even mean? Vrykul or Drust? Vrykul + Drust together? All humans evolved from Vrykul that much I know. Don't know what more you're trying to imply.
    drusts are seafaring vrykul, some kul'tirans procreate with the drust, and some of then retained some of their characteristics showed by their racials

    the humans were degenerated vrykuls, not evolved btw

  20. #9860
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garfurion View Post
    Nope. The 3 different body types for Kul Tirans are just to give some flavor and texture to the world.

    Word of God (in this case Travis Day): "So, Thin Man and Fat Man are what we call them internally. And no, they’re not intended to be a different race, [they’re] just variants on Kul Tirans. So, generally, when we’re spawning up Kul Tiras on the design side, we looked at using them as kind of our… maybe it’s a little bit like, ‘The big guy’s the bouncer!’ Or, ‘The big guy’s the ruffian who’s got a little guy up by the neck! And then the little guy’s more the scoundrel and they’re always holding daggers or leanin’ up against something,’ and, I don’t know, it just gives us a little more flavor and texture to the world." -- source

    Also, Kul Tirans were never isolated long enough, if they even were ever isolated, to evolve into a different body type and even if they did evolve the entire island would have evolved into the same direction due to the founder effect, genetic drift, inbreeding and relatively low genetic variation in general. However there are clearly 3 different models for Kul Tiran NPCs.
    Unsurprisingly, this gets into a gray area.

    Whilst the desire for more variety in human models was clearly the impetus behind the creation of the fat and thin models, the fat model (the one that is actually playable) doesn't sit right with a lot of people who don't accept it is just a variation because it is simply too out of kilter with the rest of the world. Why would the fat man model only be introduced there? Why not Stormwind? Or Stromgarde? Or Lordaeron?

    There is of course the theory that Kul Tirans carry Drust blood, and Drust are just the local variety of Vrykul. They were the natives of Kul Tiras. We know from Ulfar, last of the Drust and leader of the Thornspeakers, that some Drust did not side with Gorak Tul in his war against the newcomers. They joined Kul Tiran society and taught them Druidism. Isn't if peculiar how the one area of the world where we know Vrykul lived for a time with humans now produces freakishly, abnormally large Humans?

    Now I know what you are going to say. 'And no, they’re not intended to be a different race, [they’re] just variants on Kul Tirans' to which of course there is a perfectly consistent explanation.

    Vrykul and Humans share a common ancestry. Humans after all, are a degenerate form of Vrykul banished from Vrykul society. In much the same way Blood Elves and Night Elves are Elves, Vrykul and Humans fall into the same racial bucket and would almost certainly be genetically compatible. The first generation would have been a sort of Half Drust I imagine, but the Drust died out farily swiftly and as each generation succeeded the next, the traits became diluted and more widely disseminated throughout the Kul Tiran gene pool. Kul Tirans are absolutely human, in the same way any of us that happens to possess some genetic material from the Neanderthals or the Denisovans is completely Human. Yet that Drust blood manifests in the 'fat' model.

    So, as explained, there is a perfectly consistent explanation as to why the Kul Tirans have these freakishly large individuals who live among them so at odds with the rest of the Human race as depicted in game. And the intent behind making them playable seems to be a desire to give the Alliance something as close to a Vrykul as they could without it being a Vrykul, which would simply be far too large for a player model.

    Could the theory be wrong? Sure. And if we ever get an explicit statement that they aren't in any way related to the Drust then that'll be good enough for me. But that wasn't the question that was asked in that interview, it was 'Chaud: Are Thin Humans going to be an Allied race, are they NPCs, what’s the weird, thin Human model?' which said nothing regarding their ancestry whatsoever.

    As for the thin man, that's just a guy who hasn't gotten enough protein.

    Overall though, the point of this dispute is it's relevance to the ongoing High Elf debate. I think it is completely irrelevant, because all thalassian elves have been depicted using the same model for the past decade and a half. If Blizzard thought they should be differentiated, they would have done so long ago. But Blizzard has been clear, again and again and again. Blood Elves and High Elves are the same race, the same race who lived in the same city and country until about fifteen years ago. There is no reason they can or should look different from each other, and even if there WERE a physical variance possible among thalassian elves, comes back to the same question. Why could Blood Elves not use it?

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