Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Varx]

Ok here is something I don't get about your proposal. What is the major harm in allowing Alliance to play the already existing High Elves in the Alliance?
.

Two major issues.

1: as it currently seems, AR are "born" as a variant of a core race and blood elves already got there's. Unless blizzards starts repeating with forest trolls, wh dwarves, etc then there is no way belves will get another AR.

2. Helves are identical to belves. Tattooss and hair is only meant to suppliment drastic differences that every current AR has from their core race. There's also no lore reason as to give them new rigs like kt humans have.

Compare the elves in the argent tournament and isle of thunder. They all look the same, even their gear and architecture, except either a pref for either red or blue.


So technically giving them crazy tattoos or hair options when not one helf npc has had them would count as a retcon that you're so against.

I know you wanna play an elf that has been alliance since Warcraft 2 and never went fel, but that possibility died when Blood Elves became a core Horde race.

The only option for a smooth clean implementation is "mechanical" neutrality. Notice how i say "mechanical" not "lore".

[DeicideUH]

Compare the elves in the argent tournament and isle of thunder. They all look the same, even their gear and camps minus a prefernce for red or blue.

So technically giving them crazy tattoos or hair options when not one helf npc has had then would count as a retcon that you're against.

You can't compare a race before its status becoming playable with after. Every single race that was added after the game launched suffered model redesigns and cultural exposure. Dark iron dwarves are a clear case: they were just a single black-skinned red-eyed skin for regular dwarves. They became playable, and now they have more skin colors, their eyes glow, their beards are on fire and they got tatoos never shown before.

Blood elves? Looked like night elves before.
Worgen? Completely remodeled.
Nightborne? Zandalari? Playable models that do not look that much like their past NPC-only models. (And, in the case of Zandalari, their appearance was upgrade four times over the game's history).

It's short-sighted to see how high elves are presented now and consider that the maximum extent the devs can go with them.

[FlubberPuddy]

Two major issues.

1: as it currently seems, AR are "born" as a variant of a core race and blood elves already got there's. Unless blizzards starts repeating with forest trolls, wh dwarves, etc then there is no way belves will get another AR.

2. Helves are identical to belves. Tattooss and hair is only meant to suppliment drastic differences that every current AR has from their core race. There's also no lore reason as to give them new rigs like kt humans have.

Compare the elves in the argent tournament and isle of thunder. They all look the same, even their gear and architecture, except either a pref for either red or blue.


So technically giving them crazy tattoos or hair options when not one helf npc has had them would count as a retcon that you're so against.

I know you wanna play an elf that has been alliance since Warcraft 2 and never went fel, but that possibility died when Blood Elves became a core Horde race.

The only option for a smooth clean implementation is "mechanical" neutrality. Notice how i sau "mechanical" not "lore".

You are giving an answer unattached to your proposal while I'm asking the question in context of your proposal. The whole of my post includes the context of the question in relation to your proposal.

Your answer doesn't explain how your proposal and retcon is more beneficial for Blizzard to do because that requires a lot more work compared to letting existing Alliance High Elves go from NPC status to playable status.

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It's short-sighted to see how high elves are presented now and consider that the maximum extent the devs can go with them.

Especially with how many redesigns say Sylvanas received which are all iterations of a Blood Elf model, same for Lor'themar and his look is even more different than the already redesigned Thalassian models.

It shows that Blizzard can represent "one model" in many different styles that fit with what they want to portray. And since we know that Blizzard already updates models once they decide to make one an Allied Race, then it follows that High Elves would receive a similar redesign.

[Varx]

You are giving an answer unattached to your proposal while I'm asking the question in context of your proposal. The whole of my post includes the context of the question in relation to your proposal.

Your answer doesn't explain how your proposal and retcon is more beneficial for Blizzard to do because that requires a lot more work compared to letting existing Alliance High Elves go from NPC status to playable status.

What? F that. Of course my proposal requires more work. But it yields more content which is a positive thing in the long run for the longevity of WoW.

This game is more than a decade old. It needs all the content it can get. Not some lazy implementation of playable high elves because it's less work.

Im talking merging eversong with EK.

Flying in eversong and ghostlands.

New races for dk and dh.

New lore.

New battleground in silvermoon.

New core horde race

New alliance AR from the new core horde race.

All for the low low price of playable helves that are SPECIFICALLY from Warcraft 2 era.

[DeicideUH]

What? F that. Of course my proposal requires more work. But it yields more content which is a positive thing in the long run for the longevity of WoW.

This game is more than a decade old. It needs all the content it can get. Not some lazy implementation of playable high elves because it's less work.

Im talking merging eversong with EK.

Flying in eversong and ghostlands.

New races for dk and dh.

New lore.

New battleground im silvermoon.

New core horde race

All for the low low price of playable helves that are SPECIFICALLY from Warcraft 2 era.

Effort with maps, quests and gameplay has nothing to do with effort in doing an allied race.

That's like thinking Blizzard should send some of their music artists to work on textures.

At most, the race will cost some unique NPC models, as modelers/animators will be busy. But do we really need things like fungarians wandering around?

[Obelisk Kai]

You can't compare a race before its status becoming playable with after. Every single race that was added after the game launched suffered model redesigns and cultural exposure. Dark iron dwarves are a clear case: they were just a single black-skinned red-eyed skin for regular dwarves. They became playable, and now they have more skin colors, their eyes glow, their beards are on fire and they got tatoos never shown before.

Blood elves? Looked like night elves before.
Worgen? Completely remodeled.
Nightborne? Zandalari? Playable models that do not look that much like their past NPC-only models. (And, in the case of Zandalari, their appearance was upgrade four times over the game's history).

It's short-sighted to see how high elves are presented now and consider that the maximum extent the devs can go with them.

'You can't compare a race before it's status becoming playable with after'. That's the fundamental problem here, your refusal to accept the reason why Alliance High Elves aren't playable. Because High Elves already are playable as Blood Elves, and we have multiple sources testifying over the years that Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

Using Dark Irons is a deliberately misleading example because they were already aesthetically distinctive as 'black-skinned and red-eyed'. No Bronzebeard Dwarf has ever had access to those options, and none ever will. It's why Dark Irons qualified as an Allied race. Skin tone difference is the primary aesthetic differentiator on over half the Allied races we currently have.

As for your other example, the Blood/High Elven model in vanilla was NPC quality and was upgraded as soon the race became playable. Note that they went to the effort of upgrading the Alliance High Elves at the exact same time because they are the same race. And when the Blood Elf model was updated in 6.1, they updated the Alliance High Elves again because they are the same race. They didn't leave Alliance High Elves behind and they didn't give Alliance High Elves a distinct model because they are the same race. And when the Allied race system was introduced, a system almost tailor made for the introduction of Alliance High Elves, they gave you Void Elves and the reason they gave you Void Elves was because Blood Elves are High Elves, because they are the same race.

Worgen, Nightborne, Zandalari? The old NPC models that weren't PC ready precisely because they weren't playable characters at the time. Now they are.

Yet Alliance High Elves DO have a player character quality model already. Because it is the Blood Elf model, and as I have been trying to hammer home in response to demonstrate just how feeble a foundation your retort was based on, they are the same race.

[FlubberPuddy]

Effort with maps, quests and gameplay has nothing to do with effort in doing an allied race.

That's like thinking Blizzard should send some of their music artists to work on textures.

At most, the race will cost some unique NPC models, as modelers/animators will be busy. But do we really need things like fungarians wandering around?

Yeah, all that extra is pretty silly. It's putting High Elves on some kind of holy grail pedestal too that High Elf fans aren't even doing themselves.

Asking for playable High Elves is just the same as anyone asking for another iteration of an already existing race.

High Elves just have the distinction of being the most requested unplayable race and continuing to show up in almost every expansion amongst the Alliance.

[Varx]

Effort with maps, quests and gameplay has nothing to do with effort in doing an allied race.

That's like thinking Blizzard should send some of their music artists to work on textures.

At most, the race will cost some unique NPC models, as modelers/animators will be busy. But do we really need things like fungarians wandering around?

That's not what he asked me...

It was a blanket question on how effort to implement my proposal is more beneficial then implementing one AR

[FlubberPuddy]

Using Dark Irons is a deliberately misleading example because they were already aesthetically distinctive as 'black-skinned and red-eyed'. No Bronzebeard Dwarf has ever had access to those options, and none ever will. It's why Dark Irons qualified as an Allied race. Skin tone difference is the primary aesthetic differentiator on over half the Allied races we currently have.

Blizzard: -laughs in Bronzebeard Dwarf customization-

Here's proof that even if Obelisk's posts come off as aggressive, he can talk out his rump just like others.

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That's not what he asked me...

It was a blanket question on how effort to implement my proposal is more beneficial then implementing one AR

If the goal is to implement an additional AR, which is the entire premise of this thread. Then yes, your proposal is so much unnecessary work that doesn't achieve the most simple way to reach that goal aka just implementing the AR themselves.

[Varx]

Yeah, all that extra is pretty silly. It's putting High Elves on some kind of holy grail pedestal too that High Elf fans aren't even doing themselves.

Asking for playable High Elves is just the same as anyone asking for another iteration of an already existing race.

High Elves just have the distinction of being the most requested unplayable race and continuing to show up in almost every expansion amongst the Alliance.

How is it silly????

How in the world is adding extra content for all players silly?

Im using your desire for helves and spinning it in a way that's good for everyone and you guys still reject it.

This is why you get condescending responses from blizz devs like Ion. You guys are completely selfish and only want your warcraft two elves and nothing else.

No void elves, no helf originating velves, no helfy options for velves, no Neutral elves.

Just some helf who's been hiding in a cave for years since the fall of SW and now decides to be adventurer for the alliance after his ps4 died.

[Ielenia]

Eversong is highly outdated (1) and needs a major overhaul(2). The story there is still pre wrath and needs at least the cata treatment. Hell, it's the reason why you cant fly in tbc starting zones since the draenie islands are both fully capable to support flying (3) but since eversong and ghostlands aren't it wouldn't be fair.

(1) Yes, but so are the other starting zones that are stuck on Cataclysm story.
(2) Yes, and no. Yes, it needs to be redone if Blizzard were to allow flying, but no, it doesn't have to be a scrap-everything-and-make-everything-from-scratch kind of overhaul, like you are suggesting.
(3) Are they? I mean, I don't think I ever flew over those areas in any way, shape or form, so how do you know there aren't invisible walls around?

Yes, it's a rehash but if anything padaren are a rehash of thalassian elves lore-wise since both factions had their own pure, pale skin, blonde thalssian elves before horde/alliance added pandas to their ranks.

The pandaren are not a re-hash of the thalassian elves' lore.

Might as well do it again if they wanna make them playable instead of making them an AR and add even more content around it to milk it as much as possible.

Except your idea is, again, in my opinion, the worst possible one. The "shared starting experience and later choose your allegiance" is something that Blizzard is apparently not really happy with, so... why would they do it again? Especially when there are much easier, simpler and lore-friendly ways to do this?

You telling me you wouldn't like to fly in those zones (1), make an orc or human demon hunter (2), or have a brandnew battleground built around silvermoon (3), give horde a new core race that yields and ally AR (4),to name a few?

No?

(1) Don't really care as I almost never go to those areas once my BE/dranei is past level 20;
(2) No, since it breaks the established lore of the demon hunter class;
(3) I don't PvP, but even if I did: the answer is still 'no'. To make Silvermoon a PvP battleground it means the city would have to be unusable by the players. See: Gilneas;
(4) What?

[FlubberPuddy]

How is it silly????

How in the world is adding extra content for all players silly?

Im using your desire for helves and spinning it in a way that's good for everyone and you guys still reject it.

This is why you get condescending responses from blizz devs like Ion. You guys are completely selfish and only want your warcraft two elves and nothing else.

No void elves, no helf originating velves, no helfy options for velves, no Neutral elves.

Just some helf who's been hiding in a cave for years since the fall of SW and now decides to be adventurer for the alliance after his ps4 died.

Re-read.

If the goal is to implement an additional AR, which is the entire premise of this thread. Then yes, your proposal is so much unnecessary work that doesn't achieve the most simple way to reach that goal aka just implementing the AR themselves.

As I say here, you're going about the most roundabout complicated way possible. When there's visible proof as I provided with the Dark Iron Dwarf and Bronzebeard Dwarf example, that the simplest way that saves work on Blizzard is just implementing High Elves.

It's not about "keep all this extra content out for all players" you're being hella silly creating a scenario that doesn't work for any other AR nor has Blizzard tried to even show this is what they want AR to do, and act like just because we don't like it that it = trying to keep content out.

Us saying we're not fond of the idea =/= Blizzard doesn't have plans to update Silvermoon and such anyway. Do you know for a fact it has to be tied to implementing High Elves in order for it work?

Stop suggesting clearly inane situations as if it's practical. Has Blizzard done this with other AR? Did other AR allow huge overhauls to old zones that affects all players? Stop putting High Elves on some crazy pedestal.

[Varx]

Look everyone is clearly dead set on how they think helves should be implemented.

Only blizzard can have the final say.

But honestly, I really can't imagine helves as an AR a thing this expansion or any expansion in the future when ANYTHING other than another reskinned AR from a race that already has an AR would be fresher.

But who knows i could be wrong, i highly doubt it, but i could be.


Funny story, when i first made my belf pally in TBC and saw the trailer for zulaman i wished that I could be Alliance. But hey the horde grew on me and I can't picture my self ever faction hopping.

Maybe you guys should give the horde a chance. If you're worried about being the bad guys, don't. Once silvy is dethroned Horde will go back to being Thralls good hordies.

[DeicideUH]

Blizzard: -laughs in Bronzebeard Dwarf customization-

The funny part is that people did reply to dark iron requests by saying there was already a grey-skinned red-eyed dwarf skin available for players.

'You can't compare a race before it's status becoming playable with after'. That's the fundamental problem here, your refusal to accept the reason why Alliance High Elves aren't playable. Because High Elves already are playable as Blood Elves, and we have multiple sources testifying over the years that Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

All that just to try to dismiss the very obvious truth: that a race status prior to become playable is no constraint as to how they'll appear once playable.

The point is that NPC high elf skins are not the extent of customization that playable high elves can have. NPC skins are just a cheap shortcut to display high elves, as there's no need to make a whole lot of differentiation until they are made playable.

And high elves are not blood elves. The game does not say that. The characters in-game do not say that. Not even Ion said that, he said "pretty much", which means close, but not the same thing. And, as long as there's a difference, it can be widened with little effort. Blizzard controls the narrative, it only needs to snap its fingers and new developments start to happen.

[Aldo Hawk]

What? F that. Of course my proposal requires more work. But it yields more content which is a positive thing in the long run for the longevity of WoW.

This game is more than a decade old. It needs all the content it can get. Not some lazy implementation of playable high elves because it's less work.

Im talking merging eversong with EK.

Flying in eversong and ghostlands.

New races for dk and dh.

New lore.

New battleground in silvermoon.

New core horde race

New alliance AR from the new core horde race.

All for the low low price of playable helves that are SPECIFICALLY from Warcraft 2 era.

So this is how raid tier dies... with thunderous applause...

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You know what I lied. Found it!

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...nce-high-elves



Blizzard: hold my beer

Incredible, it was always like this, a gigantic pedantry and pride, as if he know what is truth and was is possible... Magnificent.

[Strippling]

Yet way way more than a "squad" of Void Elves. Likely a 1000 times more or even greater. The population number is now a null argument.

This is pure head canon. To my knowledge, there has been no official statement from Blizzard or in game stating the high elfs outnumber the void elfs. It is pure speculation and nothing more. If I'm missing a quote somewhere please feel free to share.

It's like tying to argue that dwarfs are more numerous than Goblins... we have no real way of confirming said statement and only have speculation to go by.

Looking at BfA, there are a ton more void elfs around than high elfs... one could easily say there are more void elfs than high elfs.... again only speculation though (but no way of confirming this is or isn't correct).

[Aldo Hawk]

Blizzard: -laughs in Bronzebeard Dwarf customization-

Here's proof that even if Obelisk's posts come off as aggressive, he can talk out his rump just like others.

This is incredible, seriously... how can someone like to hear himself so much and not wanting to be reasonable for once? it's not okay.

[FlubberPuddy]

The funny part is that people did reply to dark iron requests by saying there was already a grey-skinned red-eyed dwarf skin available for players.

It just goes to show Blizzard doesn't give a shit about those types of arguments. Because if that were the case we wouldn't even be having the Allied Race system in the first place. If you can just say "use an existing option" when the point is to offer MORE OPTIONS then that shows a fundamental lack of understanding a system's purpose in the first place.

Obelisk also continues to argue that High Elves can't be differentiated from Blood Elves due to being "the same race" but fails to acknowledge that Kul'Tirans all the way up till BFA (AKA EVEN IN LEGION) were represented by the same Human model, even when that Human model was updated in WoD, the Kul'Tirans were still displayed using the updated Human model.

It was not until internally Blizzard decided to make them an Allied Race that they came to have the different models they do today. So Obelisk's narrative that "when the Blood Elf model was updated in 6.1, they updated the Alliance High Elves again because they are the same race. They didn't leave Alliance High Elves behind and they didn't give Alliance High Elves a distinct model because they are the same race."

Is false.

Because Kul'Tirans were updated just as well when the Human model revamp happened in 6.1 as well. The "fat man and thin man" didn't happen until BFA when they were undoubtedly decided to become an Allied Race. Even though Kul'Tirans and Stormwindians are the same race.

[Aldo Hawk]

This is pure head canon. To my knowledge, there has been no official statement from Blizzard or in game stating the high elfs outnumber the void elfs. It is pure speculation and nothing more. If I'm missing a quote somewhere please feel free to share.

It's like tying to argue that dwarfs are more numerous than Goblins... we have no real way of confirming said statement and only have speculation to go by.

Looking at BfA, there are a ton more void elfs around than high elfs... one could easily say there are more void elfs than high elfs.... again only speculation though (but no way of confirming this is or isn't correct).

It's a simple guessing game.

From where did Void elves came? A group of exiled researchers.

From where did High elves came? from 1% of exiled Thalassians and elves that never returned to Silvermoon in the first place.

A population has to be -very- small in order for 1% to be less than what is called a squad. Remember, Silvermoon is a city, not a village, and the survivors were 10% of it's original population less those who went with Kael'thas to Outland.

[Strippling]

Woodland theme works perfectly well for High Elves

No it doesn't. Most alliance aligned high elfs are city dwellers, most of which live in a majestic magical city (ie Dalaran). It would make no sense to base the high elf theme around an extremely small group that live in the Hinterlands, of which said group has not been active since Cata. So no, it doesn't work well, it's just fan fiction.

Just because Dalaran exists doesn't mean Blizzard can't create a new location for them.

Wouldn't change the fact that no matter where high elfs would hypothetically live, they'd still be comprised mainly of elves who lived in majestic/magical cities. So I'd say their hypothetical theme would be based around this... and I use the word hypothetically because alliance aligned high elfs will never be playable, given that high elfs are already playable and are on the Horde.

These arguments you're using fall apart when you apply them to the other AR, which means it's not a good argument if it has to be that specific.

The difference is the existing AR are playable for a reason. High elfs on the otherhand are not playable, for a reason (as stated by Blizzard itself). So you have nothing to "tear apart" my argument with, apart from wishful arguments for why they should be.

JSo all this discussion is showing Blizzard, "hey you can also do something 'new' and cool with the High Elves on the Alliance" with all these customization and model suggestions.

There's nothing 'new' about the fan fiction art.

A) most of the art is just blood elfs with tattoos - Nothing new about that
B) Woodland theme is covered by the night elfs - Nothing new about that
C) 'Ranger' elfs - Nothing new about that. Blood elfs have way more rangers (ie farstriders) than alliance aligned highelfs

Also, your comment about Alliance now "owning" rights to the Thalassian model was cute. A true example of wishful thinking. AR's aren't based off AR's, so sorry pal you "own" no right to it.

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It's a simple guessing game.

Simple guessing. Not factual. So any population claims are based on a "guess".