Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

Well first, im glad those fedora flippers aren't devs cuz we don't need overcrowded toon creation screens in order to fullfill their mouth breathing rp needs.

As for what else is left?

Mechagnomes still aren't offically confirmed.

Worgen could get an AR, maybe nelf worgen

Then if the AR system is meant to give mutliple ars to core races then there's jinyu or ankoa, lepper gnomes, eredar, etc. Though i doubt that'll happen.

I cant give quotes on the future of the AR system, just educated guesses based on what we have which is safe to assume that velves killed of the possibility of helves when blizz chose them over an alreasy established thalassian faction.

Yeah so basically there is no good shit for the Alliance going forward past BFA. Thanks for confirming.

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One of the most common posts early since Void elf release from new Void elf players is that they found hard to feel any attachment to their characters, as if it were so shallow that lacked too much character.

I want to believe that it is because of intentional design of the Allied race, that it is meant to fulfill very specific fantasies such as... shallowness, or loneliness, or 'being darks mwahaha'.

It is very hard to get into the character of a Void Elf. And I'm someone that LOVES Elves when it comes to fantasy races. I have a hard time leveling one up to get its Heritage Armor, still haven't done it.

In the meantime though I've gone ahead and unlocked every Allied Race so far, even on Horde and it immediately is easy to connect with characters of all other ARs even when I'm not as passionate about them (like Dark Irons and Kul'Tirans) as Elven races.

[DeicideUH]

It is very hard to get into the character of a Void Elf. And I'm someone that LOVES Elves when it comes to fantasy races. I have a hard time leveling one up to get its Heritage Armor, still haven't done it.

There's simply nothing substantial to latch onto. They have a single NPC, Umbric, and all the rest are just assumed to be his clones. They lack variety, goal, struggle, anything that makes a race interesting.

It would be nice to know the clear answers to at least some of the many questions left hanging:

Alleria: What’s she doing? Where are her inner conflicts? How is her relationship with her husband? Her son? Her living sister? Her Alliance Expedition followers? How is the training with her void elves going? Are there any conflicts with the void elves?

Umbric: Where does he come from? Does he have a family? Why was he so obsessed with the Void to choose his studies over his homeland? Who are his favorite acolytes? Why did they remain loyal to him even in exile?

Void elves: What is their ethos? Are there troublesome ones? Are there promising ones? Are there any who disagree with Alleria’s or Umbric’s views? Are there ones who have been lost to the Void already?

Who are their recruits? Why would non-scholars seek to become void elves? How do they create more? Why would they even want to create more? What are the trials to see if an elf is worthy of the transformation? What measures do they take to keep the Void under control?

Diplomacy: What do they think of the races of the Alliance? How is their relationship with the high elves? What about the night elves? The lightforged? What races are closest to them? What races shun them the most?

Once Blizzard starts answering such questions, I may start taking void elves seriously.

[Garfurion]

On the "high elves will turn into void elves" possibility, like I said above, I can only see it happening if it's an unwilling transformation. There's no way the high elves will betray the very reason they split from blood elves. Sure, there's always the odd scholar or crazy extremist that may be willing to do so, but the entire race? Even its civilians and non-magic users?

“They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues. “But it’s natural as other elves have found out about them — elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities — would see if they could undergo a similar process. They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest.” -- source

Note, the bold part. This certainly doesn't sound like anything an Alliance High Elf would do who have historically been more reserved when it comes to using magic. The Highvale Elves even stopped using magic completely so this excludes them anyway but it should also exclude any Thalasian Elf who is not a mage, warlock or (shadow) priest. Although it doesn't make the High Elves in Telogrus Rift impossible it will mean the ones we see are probably the only ones lore-wise given the low number of High Elves.

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Neither Blood Elves, nor Void Elves, offer that. It would be like telling someone they can "RP" their Nightborne on Alliance by just playing a Night Elf mage, when the entire backstory and theme of Night Elves is that they forsake using Arcane and delved into the more natural/spiritual magics.

Can someone honestly say with a straight face/no sarcasm that playing a Night Elf mage is equivalent to playing a Nightborne on Horde side?

No, but you can play a Shen'dralar as Alliance Night-Elf mage which comes close

Question is, why would the Shen'dralar stay part of the druidic Night Elven society, which probably doesn't completely trust and accept them, instead of joining the Nightborne in Suramar ? Probably something Blizzard didn't consider when making the Nightborne a Horde race

[Syegfryed]

You clearly don't understand -basic- biology if you call another group of people with different skin color a literal different species.

well Mrs. race is a social construct, im actually a biologist, so yeah i do understand not just basic of biology, but beyond that.

i never said that just skin color is literal different specie, you are again being devious trying to distort what i said to make your argument valid

You don't even take -basic- biology seriousness when trying to justify fantasy races without basic biology things as empirical evidence of the living being you are referring to, such as biologic samples, anatomical structure, cycle of life, habitat, etc...

but we do have those things, most of it, thats why i said that since we cannot have DNA samples or studies about genetic we are left with just morphological characters, and they were well used before and still are used today to explain different species, so they can be used on WoW races

the maghar don't just have skin color, i did said what make then different enough to be another race of orcs

You are behaving as someone who in Spain is called a 'cuñado'. Someone who just talks and talks as if he knew about everything but cannot go deeper into that because his vision is short as his desire to be truly wise.

Nice description of yourself on this subject here.

Demonstrate it, if you are so certain just demonstrate it. Link the definition of the false equivalence fallacy by yourself if you got the guts and also the parts (within the context, you like to cut context out of things) where you think i'm plainly faulting to logic.

i already explained step by step of why your equivalence is wrong and present the right equivalence of HE/BE dilemma, you are just ignoring like always.

@Syegfryed The bolded part is an example of false equivalence, just so you know.

now you are trying to explain what a false equivalence is? cute

We can play a Mag'har orc, who by gameplay is stated to be from Draenor, but you can easily roleplay it as a Mag'har from Outland.

yes and? this is not the point, you are desperate bringing up another thing trying to validate your point

Maghar and green orcs is not an equivalence to HE and BE, no matter how you try to force

both of which do not fulfill the fantasy of playing as one of those Thalassians that stood with the Alliance all along.

If its by RP then you can RP a silver coventant elf playing a Velf yes, people are doing this now, byt thousands, the same way you can RP a maghar orc from outland

outland orcs do have bloodfury, but the maghar don't, yet they still can RP an little Garrosh

Your personal liking on the matter cannot be taken as a factual point of legitimacy.

you know this is exactly pointed for you, right? pot meet kettle

[Garfurion]

Perhaps it is not the Blood Elves' culture who has changed? Maybe it is the Alliance High Elves who are rejecting the magic that has always formed the core of their people's society even as they are assimilated into human society.

I think both Blood Elves and High Elves have changed since the Sunwell and Quel'Thalas were destroyed. But whereas Blood Elves have done everything, including endangering their souls, to preserve their culture and way of life while High Elves tried to preserve their ideals/morals (such as not sucking magic from living beings or draining a Naaru) but sacrificed pretty much everything else while doing that.

I always assumed in Vanilla that High Elves rejecting magic was Blizzard's plan regarding the future of High Elves, given that the Highvale Elves abandoned magic altogether. Non-magical Elves would have been a twist on the High Elven fantasy genre that wouldn't have been out of place for Blizzard.

In other words, what you are suggesting is exactly what they have already done and for a small, vocal group of players it wasn't enough. Why would this suggestion work?
More to the point, whilst Blizzard's writing isn't exactly stellar, I think even they would baulk at the idea of another random group of Elves encountering yet another magical artifact and undergoing yet another unique transformation.

I wouldn't bet on that, so far Blizzard has come up with a whole lot "unique" transformations so I'm sure there are more to come.

Dark Trolls -> Well of Eternity -> Night-Elves
Night-Elves -> cut-off from WoE / Sunwell -> High-Elves
High-Elves -> Fel Corruption -> Blood Elves --> New Sunwell -> ?
Blood Elves -> Void Infusion -> Void Elves
Night-Elves -> Night Well -> Nightborne
Nightborne -> Unstable./dying Arcan'dor -> Faldorei
Night-Elves -> Old God -> Naga
Night-Elves -> Sargeras -> Satyr
Satyr -> Elune -> Night-Elf

This is even leaving out the wretched, felblood elves, withered, etc... I don't think any one other "species" has been transformed as much as Elves have. I doubt Nightborne and Void Elves were the last additions to the Elven family tree.

[Traycor]

Yes, Chris say "blood elves are our high elves", and then proceeds to say how blood elves evolved from high elves.
"Blood elves serve as our example of what happens to a group of people when they just won't stop playing with it [magic] or abusing its power."
"Illidan taught the blood elves - the now named blood elves - how to syphon demonic energies, how to syphon ambient arcane energies from air, and in doing so he damned the last vestiges of the high elven race to retain their magic addiction but feed it with really unwholesome energies."

There you have it, the moment the blood elves and high elves turned into two different things. He does not goes into it, but we know there's still high elves that didn't take that path, didn't rename themselves and remained in the Alliance, and thus are not covered in that speech. It's amazing that you refuse to see the obvious. High elves and blood elves are not the same thing.

High elves and blood elves are not the same thing. They share an origin, but their paths diverged ten years (in-lore time) ago.


"Basicly, blood elves kind of are high elves. [they have] different eye color, different backstory, [in terms of] you know, their different relationship to magic, but that's it"
There you have it, Ion saying high elves have a different culture. Ion's entire comparison between blood elves and high elves is about appearance. "If you want to be fair skinned, tall, majestice elf". If that's the problem, transform them, damn it! But retain what makes them different, which is the backstory that he himself acknowledges.

Instead, Blizzard transformed blood elves into void elves. But we didn't ask for blood elves, we asked for high elves. And void elves fundamentaly contradict that very same "different backstory" and "relationship to magic" that makes high elves unique.

All the likes!!!

[Aldo Hawk]

omegasnip

Zero substance at all, strawmans here and there, a highly doubtful statement given the false information that has been given, a 'no, you' childish stance, lies, doubling down in demonstrated and pointed out fallacies, assumptions without any basis at all, lack of justification of accusations, etc...

What are you trying? this is a complete mess...

[Alixie]

not the kul'tirans, the ones that became playable, they are not the same race of human

Word of God is infallible right? Travis Day confirmed Kul Tirans are Humans.

"So, Thin Man and Fat Man are what we call them internally. And no, they’re not intended to be a different race, [they’re] just variants on Kul Tirans.

Now we have established that Kul Tirans are not a separate race, they are Humans. Humans and Pandaren prove we can have multiple playable versions of the same race.

kul'tirans show to have drust ancestry or at least hundread years of isolation and different conditions the normal process of specialization, unlike elves who had less than a decade with the same conditions.

Drust are Vrykul. All Humans are the (Curse of the Flesh) descendants of Vrykul. The first Human population in Kul Tiras were Guilnean settlers.

Kul Tiras was never an isolated nation. They traded, traveled, and settled with the other Humans in the Eastern Kingdoms and vice versa.

no matter how how a stormwind human try he will never get a shape or the kul'tirans racials

Should High Elves be playable, they will never have access to Blood Elf racials. These are gameplay restrictions, otherwise there's no reason why my SW human cant get fat.
And fat, skinny, tall, old, and muscular humans exist in the Eastern Kingdoms.

because they are? say they are not is like saying a human in the old town and a human in the mage quarter are a different race of human becaused they are separated by district in a small spawn of time

What's stopping them from adding High Elves if we've proven that we can have multiple playable versions of the same race?

[Aldo Hawk]

Word of God is infallible right? Travis Day confirmed Kul Tirans are Humans.

"So, Thin Man and Fat Man are what we call them internally. And no, they’re not intended to be a different race, [they’re] just variants on Kul Tirans.

Now we have established that Kul Tirans are not a separate race, they are Humans. Humans and Pandaren prove we can have multiple playable versions of the same race.



Drust are Vrykul. All Humans are the (Curse of the Flesh) descendants of Vrykul. The first Human population in Kul Tiras were Guilnean settlers.

Kul Tiras was never an isolated nation. They traded, traveled, and settled with the other Humans in the Eastern Kingdoms and vice versa.



Should High Elves be playable, they will never have access to Blood Elf racials. These are gameplay restrictions, otherwise there's no reason why my SW human cant get fat.
And fat, skinny, tall, old, and muscular humans exist in the Eastern Kingdoms.



What's stopping them from adding High Elves if we've proven that we can have multiple playable versions of the same race?

I hope he finally understands that Kul'tiran are not another race nor species of human, they are plainly and simply humans. The conspiracy theory of Drust ancestry had been already effectively debunked.

I'm gonna bet that the idea of HE having different racials when becoming playable surely seems like rocket science for him

What's stopping them from adding High Elves if we've proven that we can have multiple playable versions of the same race?

I'm gonna answer this one for him: Absolutely nothing.

[Strippling]

"in an expansion where the faction conflict is so prominent" there was a desire for them to make Allied Races that were more distinct. Don't put your fingers in your ear and forget the context in which he was speaking.

I can't think of an expansion where there hasn't been faction conflict. It's a key feature of the game. Ion even reiterated the importance of the faction divide in WoW (not just BfA) in a recent Forbes interview.

So don't put your fingers in your ears, shouting aloud the word "context" while simultaneously ignoring his comment [that high elfs would blur faction lines].

[Philosopino]

Havent read the entire thread, but wouldn't it be nice to just give Void elves an out of combat high elf form?

[Strippling]

Funny how the high elfers exclaim that they have been "abused" by antis, yet in the last few pages of this thread I've only seen high elfers throwing out insults or mocking players because they "can't see why high elfs work".

The anti's commenting on this thread over the last few pages have predominately just opposed ideas that they disagree with, where as the high elfers seem to go one step ahead and openly mock those who disagree with them. Alex's words ring true "but please be respectful", showing that Blizz openly see and acknowledge the toxicity of some of the high elfer community.

I know anti's can be rude too, but reading the last 10 pages or so I've seen a lot more insult and mocking from the pro crowd than the anti crowd. How about we all refrain from mocking?? It's okay to not agree, but that doesn't have to be followed with mocking. @Obelisk Kai has not insulted anyone, yet has received bullyish comments from several of the pro crowd in recent pages. He expresses his disagreements and views on the topic, but has not mocked anyone. I suggest those who cannot be respectful leave the thread. This is a thread for the discussion of "for" and "against" high elfs, so comments from both parties should be accepted without insult, regardless of whether you agree or not. If you don't agree, merely state the fact... don't add insults along with it, that is just childish.

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Havent read the entire thread, but wouldn't it be nice to just give Void elves an out of combat high elf form?

That'd kind of take away from what makes a void elf. They underwent a different transformation to Alleria, which resulted in them having a more permanent taint of void energy. Making them more like Alleria would detract from void elfs in several aspects, and no race or AR should be detracted from simply for "high elf" aesthetics, which already exist via Blood Elfs.

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I'm gonna answer this one for him: Absolutely nothing.

Yet, high elfs to this date have not been added. On top of this, void elfs were added in their place.

Explain to me why void elfs were added in place of high elfs (when if ever there was a time to add HE the introduction of the AR system would have been the time)? I'd really love to hear your explanation.

[Syegfryed]

Zero substance at all, strawmans here and there, a highly doubtful statement given the false information that has been given, a 'no, you' childish stance, lies, doubling down in demonstrated and pointed out fallacies, assumptions without any basis at all, lack of justification of accusations, etc...

What are you trying? this is a complete mess...

nice way to deflect, acuse others of what you do, very mature

Word of God is infallible right? Travis Day confirmed Kul Tirans are Humans.

yes i know that, they are humans in the same way of highmountain taurens are taurens, yet, not the regular taurens, is that rly, rly hard to grasp?

"So, Thin Man and Fat Man are what we call them internally. And no, they’re not intended to be a different race, [they’re] just variants on Kul Tirans.

note the variant, not the regular human part

just because they did not intend to be a different race of human don't mean they didn't become later on, lets wait until blizzard do confirm they are indeed the same exactly thing, like they did with elves shall we??

Drust are Vrykul. All Humans are the (Curse of the Flesh) descendants of Vrykul.

humans are degenerated vrykuls, not just descendants.

Kul Tiras was never an isolated nation. They traded, traveled, and settled with the other Humans in the Eastern Kingdoms and vice versa.

they are isolated in one island, many groups there never traveled to other places and never had sexual intercourse with other humans, and some fo then lived different, this enough to grant a variation withing the race

Should High Elves be playable, they will never have access to Blood Elf racials. These are gameplay restrictions, otherwise there's no reason why my SW human cant get fat.
And fat, skinny, tall, old, and muscular humans exist in the Eastern Kingdoms.

Kul'tirans humans are not just fat, they are taller, larger, physical different and with different racials, this is not just gameplay thing, and normal humans cannot become like that.

exactly like a regular tauren cannot grow moose horns, a troll cannot become a zandalari an green orc cannot become maghar, etc.

What's stopping them from adding High Elves if we've proven that we can have multiple playable versions of the same race?

because HE are not a multiple or a different version, they are the exactly same version.

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I hope he finally understands that Kul'tiran are not another race nor species of human, they are plainly and simply humans.

yeah sure, simply human, but just tow times their size and Weight, totally different features and different racials, but just simply and regular humans its the same thing

yet, the same exactly elves are somehow different, your mental gymnastic is rly on top

The conspiracy theory of Drust ancestry had been already effectively debunked.

you didn't debunked nothing rly, Ulfar said the drust joined kul'tirans society, and the kul'tirans that become playable are taller and larger, just like a vrykul, their face look like Vrykul and they resemble too much to gorak'tul

i know basic logic its not your fort, but its so much obvious that is painful.

[FlubberPuddy]

Some more amazing High Elf concept from Ramavatarama!



Definitely doesn't look like any Elf in-game

Feathers just seem so appropriate all the time for High Elf aesthetics now due to the many suggestions incorporating them.

[Doffen]

snip

Why are you always advocating for the pro-helfers being so rude, when other antis do exactly the same? No, Obelisk Kai do mock others. I do too. And you as well. None of us are grandmas favorite forum-poster grandson.

Both sides got few people whos insulting/mocking, while most here are trying to discuss normally. Yes, Obelisk Kai is normally a guy who makes great arguments, it is good to read what he writes, and I am not thinking of him when writing about the "antis". But you are not fooling anyone to think that pro-helfers are more toxic than the anti-helfers.

I do read this thread everyday, but I have said my opinion so I just refrain from writing anymore about the topic, both sides got good arguments for both yay and nay. And both sides got silly arguments for the same as well.

Some people do come with great ideas for what could be too, or what can't be. It is awesome to read.

Sorry, I can't for some reason do a mention.

[FlubberPuddy]

Sorry, I can't for some reason do a mention.

Have to do "@" before their name. Like @Doffen

And thanks for bringing some level-headedness in the thread.

Strippling's bias is so obvious when in the last 5 pages only people with trolly comments have been infracted, and it aint from a "pro-helfer".

[Obelisk Kai]

You already answered your own question: it could happen. The fact it hasn't, yet, is irrelevant. The point is that it could.

And when it does happen, it will no longer be a hypothesis, but I would still like to have some kind of evidence it is happening before I believe we can treat is a factor.

It is irrelevant. And the 'blood elf' experience is not the high elf experience, only the closest you can get with what you have access to, in-game. But those experiences are not one and the same. There are political and cultural differences between the two, as well as physical differences.

The physical difference is an eye colour change. As golden eyes proves eye colour can change depending on circumstances, it is not a true differentiating factor. You would be as well to argue that if all the Alliance High Elves dyed their hair blue then that would make them a separate group. We know for a fact that both groups share the defining aspect of their race, an addiction to magic and that that addiction is now sated by feeding on the same Sunwell.

Cultural differences are to be found in switching from a High Elf culture to a Human culture, their assimilation with humanity continues apace. In most areas however, as shown by their continued use of thalassian titles such as Ranger-General and their continued pilgrimages to the Sunwell, there is heavy overlap with the Blood Elves. What is missing entirely is any sort of original culture, as Traycor and others propose. This is unsurprising given the confirmed miniscule low population of Alliance High Elves and their status as exiles in a human city, they either preserve what they know or they assimilate. This matches real world experiences.

The political difference is real, but a political difference is nowhere near enough to justify allowing the Alliance players to play as a cultural, thematic and aesthetic duplicate of an existing Horde race. The political difference is also the basis for the idea that the High Elf experience is different from the Blood Elf experience. This is incorrect. The fantasy of the High Elf is not defined by their politics, but by who they are as a people and how it matches the standard High Elf fantasy tropes. This covers the look, aesthetic and theme of the race, not just their politics. The overlap with the Blood Elves in all these areas is almost total for Alliance High Elves, and helps to explain why they would be a redundant option for players as well as one that damaged the faction distinctiveness of the Horde as well as the integrity of the Blood Elves as the true High Elves of the franchise.

You just explained why it's irrelevant. Those who want to be a Dragonmaw orc don't want to be 'any' orc. There are reasons for that. It's not hard to surmise what said reasons may be.

The Dragonmaw left the Horde due to a political issue, the deposition of Grommash Hellscream. But nobody is claiming that the Orc experience is not available, that playable Orcs are not real Orcs or that the Dragonmaw are somehow special. Their political differences are not a sufficient basis for them to be considered as an Allied race. The same holds for the Alliance High Elves.

Not all of them did. A decent chunk did not. It's those loyal high elves people are asking for.

Which is irrelevant. The High Elf experience is available to all players who wish to partake of it. Those who don't wish to play a High Elf by selecting the Blood Elf option are denying themselves. It is also overreaching considering the Void Elf option was provided to Alliance players, with confirmation that any elf can choose to become a Void Elf if they so wish, including the traitor Elves who chose the Alliance over their people and kingdom. If the important factor is the thalassian elf you are playing has always been loyal to the Alliance and never became a Blood Elf, the Void Elves give you that opening. If that is unacceptable, it proves the desire for a 'loyal' elf is not the main driver but that the request is driven by the desire for the theme and aesthetic of a Horde race.

You're lumping the entire Alliance to the actions of one acting commander that had no communication whatsoever with the rest of the human alliance at the time, meaning he did his own bidding without the approval from the rest of the Alliance? Ok. Shows your honesty. (or lack thereof)

You are judging what I said as the opinion of an omniscient player. This is incorrect. The opinion of the Blood Elves, as demonstrated by Rommath's bitterness during 'In the Shadow of the Sun' is that the Alliance betrayed them, and while Garithos was indeed one racist commander, the Kirin Tor stood aside and did nothing to stop him. You could probably make a good case for absolving the Alliance of blame for Garithos' actions, the question is how many Blood Elves would be willing to hear it.

You say we don't... then you explain how we do. Fascinating. Also, Alleria did not defeat and consume a 'fallen Naaru', but a Void Revenant. Other than that, it's not that to hypothesize that killing (or using) other void creatures (likely less powerful but still strong) could be used to "create" new void elves.

As with the earlier statement, there is no evidence that such a process would work. From a lore perspective, it also begs the question of why Alleria didn't start with a smaller void creature and instead went for a Dark Naaru. Ignorance or greed isn't really a plausible excuse as Locus Walker was advising her on the process.

The truth is, the desire for Void Elves created this way is not really based on lore, but attempting to find a way to create Void Elves who look like High Elves so as to gain access to the aesthetic of a Horde race.

Void Elves look the way they do as a deliberate choice. Ion said they wanted things between the two factions to be a bit more distinct and that the point of Void Elves was to give something that felt like a Blood Elf which they were clear is synonymous with High Elves, as in the previous Jessie Cox interview in 2017 Ion said that Void Elves were another flavour of High Elf. So in 2017 he termed Void Elves another flavour of High Elves, in 2018 he termed them as something feeling a bit like a Blood Elf for the Alliance. This is easily reconciled when you hear the rest of his answers in both interviews and he declares Blood Elves and High Elves to be essentially the same thing, with Void Elves being the variant.

Brown skin color could've easily been added to the orcs. Moose antlers could've easily been added to the tauren. Golden 'tats' could've easily been added to the draenei, etc, etc. And again, if the high elves were to get the 'Allied Race' treatment, they'd get other things to differentiate themselves from their blood elf kin.

In terms of brown skin and the other minor customizations that have been used as the basis for Allied races, I agree, they could have and should have been added in such a way. But they were not.Yet each of those groups you mentioned has a lore rationale for those physical differences, the Mag'har are uncorrupted Orcs (ironically making standard green Orcs the true variant), the moose antlers were the by-product of the blessing of Cenarius, the golden tattoos of the Lightforged are a marker of the lightforging process.

Saying they 'would' get other things to differentiate them is putting the cart before the Horse. The differences are the justification for those groups being made Allied races. They were not chosen to be Allied Races and the differences added in afterwards.
Nothing similar has happened to differentiate Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves except a political and philosophical disagreement, and the philosophical disagreement was resolved a decade ago.

It's not irrelevant. Because the high elves are not loyal to the Horde. They're loyal to the Alliance. The fact the majority of their kin is allied to the opposite faction is meaningless. Because they are not.

The majority of the high elf race is loyal to the Horde as the Blood Elves. The political faction known as the Silver Covenant betrayed their people by siding with their enemies. And politics is not enough.

[Doffen]

Have to do "@" before their name. Like @Doffen

And thanks for bringing some level-headedness in the thread.

Strippling's bias is so obvious when in the last 5 pages only people with trolly comments have been infracted, and it aint from a "pro-helfer".

Yeah, I tried that, but couldn't make it work I am still a pleb on forum-mechanics

[Obelisk Kai]

This is exactly the point many have been making for the past 500 pages. The fact blizzard used blood elves when making void elves is what makes the whole thing so frustrating. They had the perfect chance to finally give us a playable version of the group many people have wanted playable since forever, and instead opted to use the opposite group that was already playable, basically giving blood elves to the alliance with a new paint job (and in a way doing more harm to the faction divide than the always alliance aligned ones would have). Yes yes blood elves are high elves, but it's not the name that's important, it's the story behind it all, the names are simply used as a means to try and convey the backstory that's attached to it, which seemingly isn't getting across.

Sure to some it's all about the aesthetic and those people are either happy with void elves as is or would settle for some more skin options, but a lot of us mainly care about getting to play the group/faction that we've seen and played with since WC2, that has always stuck to and helped the Alliance despite the majority of its people and rulers trying to distance themself and later breaking with the Alliance completely. The group that broke ties with their own kin for what they believed were right (whether misguided or not) and have continually kept showing up throughout wow's history. That's the only race I've ever wanted and the only one I could see myself race changing my main to (which I would in a heartbeat), whereas void elf is pretty much the furthest thing from what I want, if that's the fantasy I wanted I'd just have gone horde and played a blood elf already.

Warcraft 2 was one of the first computer games I played at the age of 7, it was also as far as I can remember my first encounter with this fairly classical type of fantasy, and the elves was straight away my favorite. And they've stayed that way all the way up to current day wow. Sure, the blood elves came into existance with WC3 and are what replaced them in many ways, and yet blizzard have continually kept showing us that those original elves including Alleria that even in WC2 and WC3 were supposedly renegades putting the Alliance above the wishes of their leaders and people are still here. Yes, lorewise I'm sure some of those original WC2/WC3 elves are now blood elves, and yet blizzard keeps showing off the remaining high elves as the true legacy of that alliance (be it literally with the allerian stronghold or simply implied with most of them being rangers like the original WC2 units, etc). I don't care if they have to change their name or their appearance or whatever (just not butcher the lore they've built for them since then either), as long as it's that group of elves that's always been my favorite that I get to play.

Well this is an honest, heartfelt response. I do understand the desire to play an Alliance High Elf on these terms, and while I personally believe it is easily proven most pro High Elfers are motivated by the look of the race, I have always accepted there are truly those who are motivated by the lore.

On the issue of the Void Elves being sourced from Blood Elves, the initial group were indeed Blood Elf renegades exiled from Silvermoon. But there is enough evidence now that we can say with confidence that not only can Void Elves convert other Elves into Void Elves who choose the path, but that High Elves who have never wavered from their loyalty to the Alliance are taking it.

Confirmation that the Void Elves can convert other elves is implicit in the story of BFA. The group following Umbric was clearly very small in size, yet through BFA Void Elf NPCs are encountered on a regular basis and they formed a large part of the forces deployed in the suicide mission in Nazmir. There are high elf npcs accompanying Void Elf npcs as they wander around Silvermoon. And there are Blood Elf and High Elf npcs within Telogrus who are ecstatic at being able to explore these powers they felt they were denied them.

The implication is clear, these are Elves who have sought out the Void Elves in hopes of learning to wield the powers they have. And Void Elf powers, necessitate becoming a Void Elf, because only then can you truly use the powers of the void as expressed in the void elf racials.

Moorgard's interview in polygon was explicit confirmation of this fact. You are perfectly free to view your Void Elf as a High Elf whose belief in the Alliance never wavered, who felt their people failed the Alliance through their weakness and who betrayed the Alliance by joining the Horde. Who has always been Alliance, even since the Second War.

So that possibility is open, and confirmed to be open.

Yet it must be appreciated by yourself as to why Alliance High Elves are so strongly resisted by Blizzard, and why many posters such as myself agree with this stance. The storyline is clear, the High Elves left the Alliance (whom they felt betrayed them), renamed themselves the Blood Elves and they have found a new home within the Horde. That is the story of the High Elves in Warcraft.

Allowing Alliance High Elves, physically, culturally and thematically identical to Blood Elves, damages the distinctiveness of the Horde faction. The factions were built from the very beginning on comprising distinct races, with each race added contributing to the unique character of the faction. Duplicating what has become an intrinsic part of one faction to the other degrades both, there is a loss of specialness, a disruption in the bond between avatar and faction. I can see my Blood Elf character and I know that this is a theme and look that belongs to the Horde and makes the Horde far more interesting than it otherwise would be. The diversity of options is what makes each faction special and unique.

And there is also the continuing denial from several pro High Elfers that Blood Elves are not High Elves, as DeicideUH proclaimed a few days ago and others who say the High Elf experience isn't available. That is pretty insulting to the Blood Elf fantasy and to Blood Elf players, because that is exactly what the Blood Elf fantasy and story is, the continuation of the storyline of those High Elves from Warcraft 2. Playable Alliance High Elves would allow players such as Deicide to proclaim that the real High Elves are now available, when they've been available for the past twelve years. You instantly degrade the experience of Blood Elf players interested in the lore and storyline if you do that.

This is why I think Void Elves are a decent compromise, although not one I would have advocated for myself. You have the model, but a unique version of the model with appropriate skin tones. It is thematically distinct, and it has unique aesthetics that reflect the theme.

More to the point, you are able to play a Void Elf as if they were a High Elf who never left the Alliance. Void Elves therefore have the lore based path many pro High Elfers claim they have always wanted whilst respecting the distinctiveness of the Horde and the integrity of the Blood Elves as the direct heirs of the High Elves.

- - - Updated - - -

I think both Blood Elves and High Elves have changed since the Sunwell and Quel'Thalas were destroyed. But whereas Blood Elves have done everything, including endangering their souls, to preserve their culture and way of life while High Elves tried to preserve their ideals/morals (such as not sucking magic from living beings or draining a Naaru) but sacrificed pretty much everything else while doing that.

I always assumed in Vanilla that High Elves rejecting magic was Blizzard's plan regarding the future of High Elves, given that the Highvale Elves abandoned magic altogether. Non-magical Elves would have been a twist on the High Elven fantasy genre that wouldn't have been out of place for Blizzard.

I don't think Blizzard really had a plan for the future of the High Elves in vanilla beyond adding in a few as a legacy of what had passed. The problem with 'non-magical elves', particularly thalassian elves, is that it is an impossibility. As Illidan said, there is no cure for the addiction, it can only be managed. Even those whom, like most Alliance High Elves it seems, do not use magic, they will still have to deal with their addiction. Magic is the inescapable burden of their race.

I wouldn't bet on that, so far Blizzard has come up with a whole lot "unique" transformations so I'm sure there are more to come.

Dark Trolls -> Well of Eternity -> Night-Elves
Night-Elves -> cut-off from WoE / Sunwell -> High-Elves
High-Elves -> Fel Corruption -> Blood Elves --> New Sunwell -> ?
Blood Elves -> Void Infusion -> Void Elves
Night-Elves -> Night Well -> Nightborne
Nightborne -> Unstable./dying Arcan'dor -> Faldorei
Night-Elves -> Old God -> Naga
Night-Elves -> Sargeras -> Satyr
Satyr -> Elune -> Night-Elf

This is even leaving out the wretched, felblood elves, withered, etc... I don't think any one other "species" has been transformed as much as Elves have. I doubt Nightborne and Void Elves were the last additions to the Elven family tree.

I was thinking more along the lines of a justification for becoming an Allied race. Doing the exact same thing with a second group of thalassian elves would be too repetitive even for Blizzard.

[Ielenia]

Yeah, I tried that, but couldn't make it work I am still a pleb on forum-mechanics

Nah, it's not that. You basically write [mention=#]<Name>[/mention] and replace the name with the name of the poster you're mentioning.

The '#' part is a bit trickier. You need to replace it with the poster's number. It's the number behind their name in their profile link. You can get it by opening their profile, or just mouse-over their names.

For example, yours is 563336, so basically [MENTION=563336]Doffen[/MENTION] becomes @Doffen.