Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Doffen]

Nah, it's not that. You basically write [mention=#]<Name>[/mention] and replace the name with the name of the poster you're mentioning.

The '#' part is a bit trickier. You need to replace it with the poster's number. It's the number behind their name in their profile link. You can get it by opening their profile, or just mouse-over their names.

For example, yours is 563336, so basically [MENTION=563336]Doffen[/MENTION] becomes @Doffen.

@Ielenia
Yeah, you are correct. That's the thing I forgot. Done it before so not sure why I didn't think of that you need to add profile numbers.

[Uthan]

Well this is an honest, heartfelt response. I do understand the desire to play an Alliance High Elf on these terms, and while I personally believe it is easily proven most pro High Elfers are motivated by the look of the race, I have always accepted there are truly those who are motivated by the lore.

On the issue of the Void Elves being sourced from Blood Elves, the initial group were indeed Blood Elf renegades exiled from Silvermoon. But there is enough evidence now that we can say with confidence that not only can Void Elves convert other Elves into Void Elves who choose the path, but that High Elves who have never wavered from their loyalty to the Alliance are taking it.

Confirmation that the Void Elves can convert other elves is implicit in the story of BFA. The group following Umbric was clearly very small in size, yet through BFA Void Elf NPCs are encountered on a regular basis and they formed a large part of the forces deployed in the suicide mission in Nazmir. There are high elf npcs accompanying Void Elf npcs as they wander around Silvermoon. And there are Blood Elf and High Elf npcs within Telogrus who are ecstatic at being able to explore these powers they felt they were denied them.

The implication is clear, these are Elves who have sought out the Void Elves in hopes of learning to wield the powers they have. And Void Elf powers, necessitate becoming a Void Elf, because only then can you truly use the powers of the void as expressed in the void elf racials.

Moorgard's interview in polygon was explicit confirmation of this fact. You are perfectly free to view your Void Elf as a High Elf whose belief in the Alliance never wavered, who felt their people failed the Alliance through their weakness and who betrayed the Alliance by joining the Horde. Who has always been Alliance, even since the Second War.

So that possibility is open, and confirmed to be open.

Yet it must be appreciated by yourself as to why Alliance High Elves are so strongly resisted by Blizzard, and why many posters such as myself agree with this stance. The storyline is clear, the High Elves left the Alliance (whom they felt betrayed them), renamed themselves the Blood Elves and they have found a new home within the Horde. That is the story of the High Elves in Warcraft.

Allowing Alliance High Elves, physically, culturally and thematically identical to Blood Elves, damages the distinctiveness of the Horde faction. The factions were built from the very beginning on comprising distinct races, with each race added contributing to the unique character of the faction. Duplicating what has become an intrinsic part of one faction to the other degrades both, there is a loss of specialness, a disruption in the bond between avatar and faction. I can see my Blood Elf character and I know that this is a theme and look that belongs to the Horde and makes the Horde far more interesting than it otherwise would be. The diversity of options is what makes each faction special and unique.

And there is also the continuing denial from several pro High Elfers that Blood Elves are not High Elves, as DeicideUH proclaimed a few days ago and others who say the High Elf experience isn't available. That is pretty insulting to the Blood Elf fantasy and to Blood Elf players, because that is exactly what the Blood Elf fantasy and story is, the continuation of the storyline of those High Elves from Warcraft 2. Playable Alliance High Elves would allow players such as Deicide to proclaim that the real High Elves are now available, when they've been available for the past twelve years. You instantly degrade the experience of Blood Elf players interested in the lore and storyline if you do that.

This is why I think Void Elves are a decent compromise, although not one I would have advocated for myself. You have the model, but a unique version of the model with appropriate skin tones. It is thematically distinct, and it has unique aesthetics that reflect the theme.

More to the point, you are able to play a Void Elf as if they were a High Elf who never left the Alliance. Void Elves therefore have the lore based path many pro High Elfers claim they have always wanted whilst respecting the distinctiveness of the Horde and the integrity of the Blood Elves as the direct heirs of the High Elves.

I'm not sure how I feel about the implied new Void Elf conversion, partly that I don't feel it's explicit enough to be taken as true (yet at least, though I'm sure that's where they're going), and partly that it kind of goes against the identity of rejecting questionable magic they've been building up for (most of) the outcast High Elves. It's also hard to settle for the sub-par option when what you truly wanted keeps being dangled in front of you.

And yeah, I get why blizzard hasn't done it, but to me it's not an insurmountable problem either. All they need is to show and build on some of the implied development of the Alliance High Elf group and how they're diverging from the rest of their people. Both the mingling with humans and rejecting magic aspects could've been used more to advance their story and show that while they keep the name they're clearly no more the High Elves of old than the Blood Elves are.

As for the damage to faction distinctiveness Alliance High Elves would supposedly cause, imo since they already are part of the Alliance in all but playable status that damage is already done if so (not to mention the Void Elves having been handed over as well). Blizzard wouldn't keep adding High Elf NPC's on the Alliance or have them take part of the spotlight in major storylines if they truly considered them now to be a distinctly horde thing. To me the Void Elves did far more damage in that respect than the Alliance High Elves ever could, since at least they have had some minor development showing them diverging from the main Horde group, unlike Umbric and his followers who are fresh out of Silvermoon. Which also yet again, along with Lor'themar nearly defecting in Mists as well as the dissenters in Silvermoon who still prefer the Alliance (as shown by the guy being MC'd to stop speaking out) or Valeera for that matter, shows that their picture as distinctly horde has been more or less muddy for as long as that's been a thing.

Still, as I said, my personal hope would be that blizzard actually starts to build on whatever differences are there already so it wouldn't take any kind of retconning to make the Alliance High Elf group playable in the future. Show them uniting under a leader (Vereesa?), show how they've rejected parts of the High Elf culture and adopted human ones as has been implied, as well as maybe a few new ones, maybe even have them gather and perform a ritual to sever themselves from the sunwell as someone suggested (if Lor'themar stopped their pilgrimages it's not an unfeasible move imo). It would surely have some unintended consequences that could be used to further separate them. I'm sure Blizzard could come up with any number of things like that to make them their own thing and thus even if made playable infringe less on the Horde identity that they do in their current state.

[Ielenia]

And when it does happen, it will no longer be a hypothesis, but I would still like to have some kind of evidence it is happening before I believe we can treat is a factor.

We can treat it as a factor for two reasons: one, it could happen, and two, there is no real reason for it not to happen. You are the one going all gung-ho as if trying to claim that just because a hypothesis has not been confirmed to be true than it means it won't ever happen.

The physical difference is an eye colour change. As golden eyes proves eye colour can change depending on circumstances, it is not a true differentiating factor. You would be as well to argue that if all the Alliance High Elves dyed their hair blue then that would make them a separate group. We know for a fact that both groups share the defining aspect of their race, an addiction to magic and that that addiction is now sated by feeding on the same Sunwell.

Which... also applies to void elves. Also, differences in body are not something that is reflected in the game. After all, this is what high/blood elves looked like before the Burning Crusade expansion:


So what's to say that consuming/being near so much fel magic did not change blood elves more than just on eye color? Maybe they're shorter than high elves... maybe they're taller. More physical differences could be added to high elves to further differentiate them if that's such a big problem to you, but the existence of void elves prove that simple palette changes are enough, so who's to say that 'palette swaps' are the minimal difference needed?

Cultural differences are to be found in switching from a High Elf culture to a Human culture, their assimilation with humanity continues apace. In most areas however, as shown by their continued use of thalassian titles such as Ranger-General and their continued pilgrimages to the Sunwell, there is heavy overlap with the Blood Elves. What is missing entirely is any sort of original culture, as Traycor and others propose. This is unsurprising given the confirmed miniscule low population of Alliance High Elves and their status as exiles in a human city, they either preserve what they know or they assimilate. This matches real world experiences.

This "confirmed minuscule low population" is nonsense. First, because I'm 99% the void elves, in the beginning, were even smaller than the current population of high elves... yet they became an allied race. I have not seen a single evidence that a process of conversion has been developed yet, and I haven't seen any elf being converted yet.

Second, because Blizzard could easily "handwave away" that "confirmed minuscule low population" thingie.

The political difference is real, but a political difference is nowhere near enough to justify allowing the Alliance players to play as a cultural, thematic and aesthetic duplicate of an existing Horde race.

They're not 'duplicates', culturally or thematic, of the blood elves. Their cultures and themes changed when the splinter happened.

The Dragonmaw left the Horde due to a political issue, the deposition of Grommash Hellscream. But nobody is claiming that the Orc experience is not available, that playable Orcs are not real Orcs or that the Dragonmaw are somehow special. Their political differences are not a sufficient basis for them to be considered as an Allied race. The same holds for the Alliance High Elves.

Isn't it? Where's the official statement about that, please? I mean, I don't think you work as a WoW developer or even have "a friend of a friend of a friend" that does and gives you juicy inside information.

Which is irrelevant.

Again, it's not irrelevant, no matter how much you want to believe so. It's not irrelevant because it's that group of elves the pro-high elf community wants to play as.

You are judging what I said as the opinion of an omniscient player. This is incorrect. The opinion of the Blood Elves, as demonstrated by Rommath's bitterness during 'In the Shadow of the Sun' is that the Alliance betrayed them, and while Garithos was indeed one racist commander, the Kirin Tor stood aside and did nothing to stop him. You could probably make a good case for absolving the Alliance of blame for Garithos' actions, the question is how many Blood Elves would be willing to hear it.

Apparently some high elves do understand that those were the actions of one man acting on his own, considering that even after that, many high elves remained with the Alliance.

As with the earlier statement, there is no evidence that such a process would work. From a lore perspective, it also begs the question of why Alleria didn't start with a smaller void creature and instead went for a Dark Naaru. Ignorance or greed isn't really a plausible excuse as Locus Walker was advising her on the process.

Um... did you even play the McAree quest line? Not only we find out that Alleria has already been dealing with the void for quite some time, as Locus Walker mention Alleria being "his student", but in that same quest line Alleria takes the void essence of a Void Revenant and this little tidbit ensues:
Locus-Walker: How do you feel?
Alleria Windrunner: My head is... Swimming.
Locus-Walker: Remember... So long as your mind is your own, you command this power. It does not command you.
Alleria Windrunner: How did you do it by yourself?
Locus-Walker: Ah, well. Perhaps I will tell you one day. Until then, I will be keeping an eye on your progress.
Locus-Walker: Farewell for now.

The truth is, the desire for Void Elves created this way is not really based on lore, but attempting to find a way to create Void Elves who look like High Elves so as to gain access to the aesthetic of a Horde race.

Please don't try to speak for the developers. You suck at it. If the developers truly wanted to give high elves to the community and 'void elves' was their idea, they should've made Umbric and his research team high elves, not blood elves.

Saying they 'would' get other things to differentiate them is putting the cart before the Horse. The differences are the justification for those groups being made Allied races. They were not chosen to be Allied Races and the differences added in afterwards.

Again, please don't try to speak for the developers. You suck at it. How do you know that those races weren't planned from the get-go to become 'allied races' and so those differences were added?

The majority of the high elf race is loyal to the Horde as the Blood Elves. The political faction known as the Silver Covenant betrayed their people by siding with their enemies.

So what?

And politics is not enough.

Source on that claim?

[Senphiroth1134]

There are no blood Elves...

They were what High Elves were supposedly convereted to but that never happened.....

100% canon...

I played WC3 and there isn't one legitimate video game reason why Arthas could have beaten Sylvannas....

Arthas and his whole group were murdered at the first gate... which was actually the hardest mission by the way... in the whole game.

If you don't believe me try it on hard, basically impossible.

The story of WoW and i mean that in the gern generic sense is people who don't know how to drive stick one day attemptiong to build
a semiconductor on the basis of the one time they droe do drove automatic.

So actually the reason we should supposedly never have had or cant' have High Elves...

that they are Blood Elves it's the other way...

We can't have Blood Elves because we already have HIgh Elves.

And by High Elves I mean some high elves.... I'm sure many or even a lot of High Elves were slaughtered at one point or another....

The "conversion" to Blood Elves is just a fiction to avoid what was a slaughter.

[Garfurion]

I don't think Blizzard really had a plan for the future of the High Elves in vanilla beyond adding in a few as a legacy of what had passed. The problem with 'non-magical elves', particularly thalassian elves, is that it is an impossibility. As Illidan said, there is no cure for the addiction, it can only be managed. Even those whom, like most Alliance High Elves it seems, do not use magic, they will still have to deal with their addiction.

That addiction and how they deal with it does add character to the race though. A race without any historical issues can become boring very quickly.

Magic is the inescapable burden of their race.

Doesn't the new Sunwell "cure" the Blood Elves of their addiction over time (light somehow being less addictive) ?

[Hallowseve17]

This is exactly the point many have been making for the past 500 pages. The fact blizzard used blood elves when making void elves is what makes the whole thing so frustrating. They had the perfect chance to finally give us a playable version of the group many people have wanted playable since forever, and instead opted to use the opposite group that was already playable, basically giving blood elves to the alliance with a new paint job (and in a way doing more harm to the faction divide than the always alliance aligned ones would have). Yes yes blood elves are high elves, but it's not the name that's important, it's the story behind it all, the names are simply used as a means to try and convey the backstory that's attached to it, which seemingly isn't getting across.

Sure to some it's all about the aesthetic and those people are either happy with void elves as is or would settle for some more skin options, but a lot of us mainly care about getting to play the group/faction that we've seen and played with since WC2, that has always stuck to and helped the Alliance despite the majority of its people and rulers trying to distance themself and later breaking with the Alliance completely. The group that broke ties with their own kin for what they believed were right (whether misguided or not) and have continually kept showing up throughout wow's history. That's the only race I've ever wanted and the only one I could see myself race changing my main to (which I would in a heartbeat), whereas void elf is pretty much the furthest thing from what I want, if that's the fantasy I wanted I'd just have gone horde and played a blood elf already.

Warcraft 2 was one of the first computer games I played at the age of 7, it was also as far as I can remember my first encounter with this fairly classical type of fantasy, and the elves was straight away my favorite. And they've stayed that way all the way up to current day wow. Sure, the blood elves came into existance with WC3 and are what replaced them in many ways, and yet blizzard have continually kept showing us that those original elves including Alleria that even in WC2 and WC3 were supposedly renegades putting the Alliance above the wishes of their leaders and people are still here. Yes, lorewise I'm sure some of those original WC2/WC3 elves are now blood elves, and yet blizzard keeps showing off the remaining high elves as the true legacy of that alliance (be it literally with the allerian stronghold or simply implied with most of them being rangers like the original WC2 units, etc). I don't care if they have to change their name or their appearance or whatever (just not butcher the lore they've built for them since then either), as long as it's that group of elves that's always been my favorite that I get to play.

I'm not sure how I feel about the implied new Void Elf conversion, partly that I don't feel it's explicit enough to be taken as true (yet at least, though I'm sure that's where they're going), and partly that it kind of goes against the identity of rejecting questionable magic they've been building up for (most of) the outcast High Elves. It's also hard to settle for the sub-par option when what you truly wanted keeps being dangled in front of you.

And yeah, I get why blizzard hasn't done it, but to me it's not an insurmountable problem either. All they need is to show and build on some of the implied development of the Alliance High Elf group and how they're diverging from the rest of their people. Both the mingling with humans and rejecting magic aspects could've been used more to advance their story and show that while they keep the name they're clearly no more the High Elves of old than the Blood Elves are.

As for the damage to faction distinctiveness Alliance High Elves would supposedly cause, imo since they already are part of the Alliance in all but playable status that damage is already done if so (not to mention the Void Elves having been handed over as well). Blizzard wouldn't keep adding High Elf NPC's on the Alliance or have them take part of the spotlight in major storylines if they truly considered them now to be a distinctly horde thing. To me the Void Elves did far more damage in that respect than the Alliance High Elves ever could, since at least they have had some minor development showing them diverging from the main Horde group, unlike Umbric and his followers who are fresh out of Silvermoon. Which also yet again, along with Lor'themar nearly defecting in Mists as well as the dissenters in Silvermoon who still prefer the Alliance (as shown by the guy being MC'd to stop speaking out) or Valeera for that matter, shows that their picture as distinctly horde has been more or less muddy for as long as that's been a thing.

Still, as I said, my personal hope would be that blizzard actually starts to build on whatever differences are there already so it wouldn't take any kind of retconning to make the Alliance High Elf group playable in the future. Show them uniting under a leader (Vereesa?), show how they've rejected parts of the High Elf culture and adopted human ones as has been implied, as well as maybe a few new ones, maybe even have them gather and perform a ritual to sever themselves from the sunwell as someone suggested (if Lor'themar stopped their pilgrimages it's not an unfeasible move imo). It would surely have some unintended consequences that could be used to further separate them. I'm sure Blizzard could come up with any number of things like that to make them their own thing and thus even if made playable infringe less on the Horde identity that they do in their current state.

I agree with your statements wholeheartedly, Uthan. This is why I've been swayed to join the pro-High Elf side. It's not about the appearance and aesthetic for me. I main Horde, I have a Blood Elf, I like the Horde story more. I'm not going to race change and exclusively play Alliance if High Elves were made into an allied race. For me, they are a flavor NPC race that we have seen play a role in the Alliance story time and time again. They should be playable. I feel the exact same way about Wildhammer Dwarves, Broken, Furbolg, Jinyu, Ogres, Taunka, Forest Trolls, Hozen, and all the other races that are already part of the Alliance or Horde. If they are part of the faction they should be playable. The more options the merrier.

[Aldo Hawk]

Funny how the high elfers exclaim that they have been "abused" by antis, yet in the last few pages of this thread I've only seen high elfers throwing out insults or mocking players because they "can't see why high elfs work".

The anti's commenting on this thread over the last few pages have predominately just opposed ideas that they disagree with, where as the high elfers seem to go one step ahead and openly mock those who disagree with them. Alex's words ring true "but please be respectful", showing that Blizz openly see and acknowledge the toxicity of some of the high elfer community.

Still trying to push this completely biased narrative?

@Obelisk Kai has not insulted anyone, yet has received bullyish comments from several of the pro crowd in recent pages. He expresses his disagreements and views on the topic, but has not mocked anyone. I suggest those who cannot be respectful leave the thread. This is a thread for the discussion of "for" and "against" high elfs, so comments from both parties should be accepted without insult, regardless of whether you agree or not. If you don't agree, merely state the fact... don't add insults along with it, that is just childish.

First of all, Obelisk has faulted constantly to the intelligence of those who oppose the twisted statements he makes, while also faulting to the truth in a regular basis by cutting honestity's throat in front of everyone.

Also what i suggest you is to drop this idea of a binary component on behavior in here, it's crystal clear that it is a straightforward lie.

Yet, high elfs to this date have not been added. On top of this, void elfs were added in their place.

Explain to me why void elfs were added in place of high elfs (when if ever there was a time to add HE the introduction of the AR system would have been the time)? I'd really love to hear your explanation.

Yet to this day there is a bunch of races that had not been added already, this is another example of having double standards for this particular matter.

Also, what you have to explain first is the idea that HE replaced VE in the first place. Since we don't have any official statement about this and if we look into the game the VE are described as BE exiles.

@Syegfryed You are keeping on the same behavior that doesn't lead into anything and searches for a flame war.

Instead of that, go and demonstrate the accusations you threw at me, a thing you were specifically asked to do and failed to do so. Or if you are not able to do that (because those accusations were totally false) instead, an apology.

[Varx]

Here's another tidbit that leans against the inclusion against helves, wh dwarves, forest trolls, or any other race who's core race has already yielded an AR.

The maghar are compromised of multiple orc clans, yet they're shown as a single race. All their different skin tones are just treated as different "shades".

If you think about it each clan could have easily been their own AR if blizzard decided to give multiple ARs per core race, but they didnt.

With that said, why should helves get an AR, when they hardly differ from their parent race in the first place, yet deny a full blown blackrock, dragonmaw, or laughing skull AR.

[Syegfryed]

@Syegfryed You are keeping on the same behavior that doesn't lead into anything and searches for a flame war.

why you bring me here again? thats tiresome, you are the one who start with the "behavior" you talk and get talked back

Instead of that, go and demonstrate the accusations you threw at me, a thing you were specifically asked to do and failed to do so. Or if you are not able to do that (because those accusations were totally false) instead, an apology.

i don't need to do anything, the topic and your comments are enough.

[Aldo Hawk]

why you bring me here again? thats tiresome, you are the one who start with the "behavior" you talk and get talked back



i don't need to do anything, the topic and your comments are enough.

It's simple. You claim things that don't have the guts to face afterwards, then i point that out and you evade your responsibility of backing the claims and accusations you do.

Also... Still not backing up your accusation of me doing a false equivalence fallacy.

If i were you i would be honorable and come up with an apology.

[FlubberPuddy]

Here's another tidbit that leans against the inclusion against helves, wh dwarves, forest trolls, or any other race who's core race has already yielded an AR.

The maghar are compromised of multiple orc clans, yet they're shown as a single race. All their different skin tones are just treated as different "shades".

If you think about it each clan could have easily been their own AR if blizzard decided to give multiple ARs per core race, but they didnt.

With that said, why should helves get an AR, when they hardly differ from their parent race in the first place, yet deny a full blown blackrock, dragonmaw, or laughing skull AR.

Mag'har aren't a knock against any other AR, because Blizzard themselves have flat out stated they're taking this system "in a bunch of different directions". We can also see the huge different between the first batch of AR (LFD, HMT, VE, NB) vs the 2nd batch (DI, MAG, KT, ZD).

Do you have any plans for Allied Races after the Kul Tirans and Zandalari Trolls?

JF: I feel like Allied Races are an awesome addition to the game. You have seen us taking this system in a bunch of directions now, we kinda pieced it apart, we've added Allied races and then we said "hey, wait a minute, I like being a Dwarf!", so we added a Dwarf heritage armor set. We added that, then we thought about Blood Elves wanting golden eyes or Night Elves, what do they get? So they got different customization options. So we really like the different levels of player customizations that came out of this and we're definitely not done yet, but we don't have anything to announce today.

Look at what Jeremy Feasel includes in this answer about piecing apart the AR system: Dwarves getting heritage armor, Blood Elves getting Gold Eyes, Night Elves getting Night Warrior eyes.

https://www.wowhead.com/news=288498/...ns-flying-in-n

There's a huge difference/improvement between the two batches of AR. It's clear that as Blizzard is working more and more on the AR system, they are also becoming more adept at it. To this day, we hear that LFD and HMT could've been customization options.

It also shows how "risky" Blizzard tried to be with the first batch, which is - they weren't.

And conception of Mag'har having all clans is because they knew (at the time they decided on them) A brown Orc doesn't really show much difference between a Green One when suited in armor, their actual intention with Mag'har is they knew they wanted to have an upright orc. What the fuck does that say?

That means their original intent for Mag'har was just to bring in a different posture Orc (lol).

And the same with the Mag’har Orcs?

Yeah, just people wanting more variety in orcs, for sure. But I honestly can’t remember the genesis of the decision to include all the orc tribes. We knew that we wanted to do more of an upright orc, but at the end of the day, some of the individual personality traits of the various orc clans in Warlords are not that distinguishable when you’re armoured up – especially when you have the new armour that you get in a new expansion – so we arrived at the idea of making an amalgam of all these different clans.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/world-of-wa...-azeroth-races

This was also a constant thing that people were joking about with Blizzard when the first 3/4 AR had body tattoos. "LuL Blizz, nice job adding tattoos when its gonna be covered up in armor!"

But we know in 8.2 that we're going to be able to hide everything now besides pants, that means this "issue" that was presented when Mag'har were conceived and created, isn't an issue anymore.

The main point and biggest thing is there isn't a set pattern for AR. That and the other big thing is that we can clearly see from early interviews on AR like with John Hight PC Games interview vs the later interviews like with Jeremy Feasel LATAM interview Blizzcon 2018. Where it's clear that their development of the AR system has yielded the internal team with new insights.

I doubt we're ever going to have a situation like Mag'har again (where multiple clans are included in one package) because it was trying to solve an issue that won't be an issue anymore with the more relaxed transmog restrictions.

Now races that actually have body markings will matter more and showcase unique customization that armor won't get in the way of as an option for the players.

And this is the biggest difference between the PRO and AGAINST side. It's clear that within Blizzard's AR development, things are changing, we're getting more distinct looking AR and Blizzard are opening up more character customization options.

The PRO side often acknowledges the changing statements, the AGAINST side is constantly trying to hold on to past statements without acknowledging the new ones being made. Or falling back to inane statements such as "why isn't it in the game now then! cuz it's not ever going to be" when other ARs also being requested for a long while aren't in the game yet, like Wildhammer Dwarves.

But we have statements from Blizzard that show they're on the radar. We're getting statements from Blizzard on how the already released ARs were "already in flight" and they're at a point now they're able to look at player feedback for what's wanted.

And "why should helves get an AR"? Because they still continue to be the most popularly requested race in the game. If that didn't go away all those years ago before AR, and if it still reigns as the most popular request post AR, then there's something to be said about that at Blizzard I'm sure.

Which ofc they know since we've had statements from Blizz devs where they've acknowledged High Elves as "a community favorite as far as future ideas go" "no plans in the near term" "I know I'm going to get a lot of hate mail" (that's acknowledgement of their popularity lol) "it's possible, don't give up hope", and even some developers personally supporting playable High Elves.

[Aldo Hawk]

Here's another tidbit that leans against the inclusion against helves, wh dwarves, forest trolls, or any other race who's core race has already yielded an AR.

The maghar are compromised of multiple orc clans, yet they're shown as a single race. All their different skin tones are just treated as different "shades".

If you think about it each clan could have easily been their own AR if blizzard decided to give multiple ARs per core race, but they didnt.

With that said, why should helves get an AR, when they hardly differ from their parent race in the first place, yet deny a full blown blackrock, dragonmaw, or laughing skull AR.

It's enough that they brought up alternative universe orcs isn't it?

The idea of Mag'har orcs is to give what players wanted for so long with extra spices, they could have totally left other clans to add as a separate AR but then the AU narrative would had been too much abused for this, and if not, they would had simply taken the Outland Mag'har (thing they should had done in the first place) leaving the AU variations free to do another AR or simply letting it be.

Also, the idea of 'core race' and 'sub-race' is out of the equation respecting Allied Races, by the simple standard that an Allied Race is not a Sub-race system, it's wider than that.

[Syegfryed]

It's simple. You claim things that don't have the guts to face afterwards

Again, you claim first and now you are acting like a victim, i already showed my points and explained then, you can ignore then all you want

then i point that out and you evade your responsibility of backing the claims and accusations you do.

lmao

Also... Still not backing up your accusation of me doing a false equivalence fallacy.

you did and i explained why and i showed what the equivalence rly work in the dilemma, turn back a few pages and you will se.

If i were you i would be honorable and come up with an apology.

get down from your high horse

[Aldo Hawk]

@Syegfryed Ok, let's do this.

Let's start with the post i made before you accused me of doing a false equivalence fallacy:

Then this is the first time you accuse me for it:

Next image is me demanding a justification about your accusation:

Then i'm kind enough to give a proper example of what you accused me in case you don't even care to link the definition of what a false equivalence is: Which by the way is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Wikipedia:

A common way for this fallacy to be perpetuated is one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.

After that you simply evade to justify yourself:

And reiterate on not providing any kind of proof about what you accused me:

Then, how not, i point out your evasive behavior in what is a clear 'oh no i'm cornered' situation:

And the last gyazo i'm gonna share is this one, where you insist that you already proven your accusation while... well... not proving it :

I ask you, again:

Can you please prove your accusation or coming up with an apology?

Edit: For me it seems the images doesn't show up... Well nvm you can drag them into another tab and they show.

[Strippling]

Both sides got few people whos insulting/mocking, while most here are trying to discuss normally. Yes, Obelisk Kai is normally a guy who makes great arguments, it is good to read what he writes, and I am not thinking of him when writing about the "antis". But you are not fooling anyone to think that pro-helfers are more toxic than the anti-helfers.

I acknowledged that both sides can be rude at times. What I was saying was that if you look at the last 10 pages or so, there has been unnecessary bullying towards @Obelisk Kai simply because he strongly disagrees with playable HE and makes great points as to why they shouldn't be added. I understand irritations can kick in and people can be "rude" at times, but the moment open bullying comes into play I won't tolerate that and will openly call out this sort of behavior.

It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to bully.

[Aldo Hawk]

I acknowledged that both sides can be rude at times.

You didn't, you specifically pointed 'the high elfers'.

What I was saying that if you look at the last 10 pages or so, there has been unnecessary bullying towards @Obelisk Kai simply because he strongly disagrees with playable HE and makes great points as to why they shouldn't be added. I understand irritations can kick in and people can be "rude" at times, but the moment open bullying comes into play I won't tolerate that and will openly shame those who indulge in this sort of behavior.

It's ok to disagree, it's not ok to bully.

And if you look back 500 pages you can see loads and loads and loads of bad manners against everyone, let's not get picky here, your intention is clearly to depict certain people (that, how not, you disagree with) as bully, which is total BS.

You even have to acknowledge the truth in order to not look too biased...

[Strippling]

Yet to this day there is a bunch of races that had not been added already, this is another example of having double standards for this particular matter.

Also, what you have to explain first is the idea that HE replaced VE in the first place. Since we don't have any official statement about this and if we look into the game the VE are described as BE exiles.

Dodging the question yet again. I've asked this exact same question to several high elfers and in all cases they have avoided directly answering the question.

So, I'll ask again and hopefully this time you'll answer the question directly. Please explain to me why Blizzard went out of their way to make VE an AR in place of HE? If you provide an indirect response I'll assume it's because you're too prideful to acknowledge why HE were not added (and why they never will be).

[Aldo Hawk]

Dodging the question yet again. I've asked this exact same question to several high elfers and in all cases they have avoided directly answering the question.

So, I'll ask again and hopefully this time you'll answer the question directly. Please explain to me why Blizzard went out of their way to make VE an AR in place of HE? If you provide an indirect response I'll assume it's because you're too prideful to acknowledge why HE were not added (and why they never will be).

It's not a dodged question, i answered saying the common sense thing that there is a whole bunch of potentially playable races that are not playable, and that's not a reason to say they should or couldn't be!

Also, you and nobody still didn't provided proof about because Void elves were added that leaves High elves out of the equation.

I can't answer the damn question if the premise doesn't hold any ground, please, understand me.

[Syegfryed]

@Syegfryed Ok, let's do this.

Let's start with the post i made before you accused me of doing a false equivalence fallacy

i already told you many times, comparing maghar orcs and green orcs(or even others Allied races) to BE and HE its a fale equivalence, because your claim of equivalence doesn't bear because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors. got it?

a true equivalence to the HE/BE dilemma would be two different clans(groups) of the same green orcs, like warsong and Frostwolf clan, with just different mindsets.

now you can apology yourself for doing a mistake and thinking you are right.

[Strippling]

You didn't, you specifically pointed 'the high elfers'.

When responding to someone, it helps to read thoroughly.

I know anti's can be rude too - This was from my original comment. Next time, read thoroughly.

And if you look back 500 pages you can see loads and loads and loads of bad manners against everyone, let's not get picky here, your intention is clearly to depict certain people (that, how not, you disagree with) as bully, which is total BS.

You even have to acknowledge the truth in order to not look too biased...

Again, re-read what I said before responding. This time I won't copy paste from my quote, I'll leave that for you to go back and read properly.

I acknowledged that both sides can be rude or mock. However, several people (yourself included) were blatantly ganging up and bullying Obelisk. Insults come from both sides from time to time, it's the nature of a "heated" debate. Bullying focused at an individual from several people however is going too far, and should be called out when manifested.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not a dodged question, i answered saying the common sense thing that there is a whole bunch of potentially playable races that are not playable, and that's not a reason to say they should or couldn't be!

Also, you and nobody still didn't provided proof about because Void elves were added that leaves High elves out of the equation.

I can't answer the damn question if the premise doesn't hold any ground, please, understand me.

You claim to answer using "common sense". Yet "common sense" says that VE were clearly added in place of HE.

But, to assist you with answering the question, I'll re-phrase it for you. Please explain why VE were added and not HE?