Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Stelio Kontos]

In my view, the best argument for Helves is the Nightborne. If the Horde can get Night Elves of merely a different political faction, I don't see why the same can't happen with High Elves. Just make the model slightly different as Blizzard did with the Nightborne. Hell, they're still close enough that it's hard to tell the difference depending on their gear.

Nightborne are just a different political faction of Night Elves that got shoehorned into the Horde. I wouldn't see any difference between that and High Elves.

I mean, personally, myself, I think we have more than enough Elves as it is. Too many in fact. But it's disingenuous to see Hordelets hiding behind the same reasoning when that means they shouldn't have been given Nightborne at all.

[Aldo Hawk]

i already told you many times, comparing maghar orcs and green orcs(or even others Allied races) to BE and HE its a fale equivalence, because your claim of equivalence doesn't bear because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors. got it?

a true equivalence to the HE/BE dilemma would be two different clans(groups) of the same green orcs, like warsong and Frostwolf clan, with just different mindsets.

now you can apology yourself for doing a mistake and thinking you are right.

Seriously? is it that?

Is not oversimplified nor ignorant. You can effectively roleplay as a Mag'har orc from Outland, while you cannot roleplay as a High elf simply because a Blood elf is not a High elf from the Alliance.

Your only basis on that is that they are a different (literally, by your own words: https://gyazo.com/588386effc077a74c68373fe4834879d ) species, while coming from someone who used the 'i'm an authority on the matter' card is double funny.

And here we have you double dipping into the different species narrative while in same breath correcting just a little bit and using race/species as interchangeable terms: https://gyazo.com/7fdadfe595bf4cb79f366229ac2de412 What a biologist damn... Hey, you may be, i'm not questioning that, but that was a super simple matter.

Also, you even failed to acknowledge that both Blood elves and Orcs had physical changes due to fel, Orcs manifesting it more vividly through their skin. No one of them became a different race, there is a reason of why Felblood Orcs and Felblood Elves exist.

For more info about that, you have the new toy Strippling gave to Obelisk to twist it, the video from 2005 of Chris Metzen speaking about characteristics of TbC and focusing a lot about Blood elves (he really likes them, wow). Heck, i'm gonna link it: https://youtu.be/O3uzFQ_n88k?t=638

Seriously, next time i suggest you to not double dip into cornering yourself of making false statements, educate a bit more about the matters you want to 'wreck some clueless people with facts and logic' with, please...

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I know anti's can be rude too - This was from my original comment. Next time, read thoroughly.

I acknowledged that both sides can be rude or mock. However, several people (yourself included) were blatantly ganging up and bullying Obelisk. Insults come from both sides from time to time, it's the nature of a "heated" debate. Bullying focused at an individual from several people however is going too far, and should be called out when manifested.

I already read that thoroughly and just saw someone specifically marking 'the helfers' as the ones who bully.

There is a big difference between pointing to something and letting something as an afterthought, a 'yes, there is that too but this other thing'.

If you want to do as if you were equal for both parties... sorry, you failed. (no, you didn't failed, you perfectly knew what you wanted to do).

You claim to answer using "common sense". Yet "common sense" says that VE were clearly added in place of HE.

That's your opinion. High elves were not 'clearly' switched in order to add Void elves.

In fact, by guessing, Void elves are Blood elves, even their /joke tells that, (maybe it's the /joke, if not, it's one of their voicelines). First comes High, then Blood, and now Void. Then, by guessing, the intention with Void elves was not to replace High elves, if not, for what we got from their own words: 'We wanted to create something cool that also resembles a Blood elf for the Alliance'. Maybe not those exact words, it's in the interview with Alex Afrasiabi and the Lost Codex.

That's common sense for you.

Please explain why VE were added and not HE?

As i wrote a few pages ago: The answer we got is that they wanted to create something cool and also something similar to a Blood elf.

That's what we know, nobody has a clue if they did that to replace the inclusion of High elves, Blizzard didn't specifically ruled them out.

[FlubberPuddy]

In my view, the best argument for Helves is the Nightborne. If the Horde can get Night Elves of merely a different political faction, I don't see why the same can't happen with High Elves. Just make the model slightly different as Blizzard did with the Nightborne. Hell, they're still close enough that it's hard to tell the difference depending on their gear.

Nightborne are just a different political faction of Night Elves that got shoehorned into the Horde. I wouldn't see any difference between that and High Elves.

I mean, personally, myself, I think we have more than enough Elves as it is. Too many in fact. But it's disingenuous to see Hordelets hiding behind the same reasoning when that means they shouldn't have been given Nightborne at all.

And it is the sole existence of Nightborne on Horde that makes what Ion said in the QA hypocritical and clearly an attempt to at the time, shut down a topic that clearly many people wanted an answer to.

He even cherry picked the question he answered which wasn't even the most upvoted High Elf question and asked in a neutral manner. Instead he chose one that focused on Void Elves and spent the most time explaining on Void Elf decision while hand-waving the High Elves to a clear intent to meme, "if you want to play a fair-skinned, blue eyed, majestic elf...sorry, the horde is waiting for you".

Blood Elves don't even have blue eyes, he was clearly poking fun at the known trolly type comments of "people just wanna play 'hitler elves' ".

Because it makes no sense to say that then have clear "purple skinned, silver eyed, night elf" being able to be played on Horde side as well.

But like I've been saying recently, I'm pretty sure with the response that from the media outlets/youtubers/known community members came from that QA, and how it only ignited the High Elf request instead of stifling it, they've shown change in how they respond to this particular topic.

Afrasiabi's "don't give up hope" is a very stark difference from the earlier in the year QA. And also again if that High Elf Discord met Ion at Blizzcon and his response holds true then even Ion has changed his tone regarding High Elves, "they won't be in BFA, but that doesn't mean they won't be in wow ever"

But I take the Discord chat/image with more skepticism because it can't be verified as well short of asking Ion if the convo is true or not (which anyone is free to do).

[Syegfryed]

Seriously? is it that?

it is

Is not oversimplified nor ignorant. You can effectively roleplay as a Mag'har orc from Outland, while you cannot roleplay as a High elf simply because a Blood elf is not a High elf from the Alliance.

thats have nothing to do with the subject.

Also you are lying, you can roleplay as a HE playing a VE just fine, the " because a Blood elf is not a High elf from the Alliance." its a nonsense and nonissue, roleplay its way more about pretend.

if you can pretend that your maghar come from outland even when they do not, you can do with VE just fine.

Your only basis on that is that they are a different species,

yes and? the only basis that is factual

while coming from someone who used the 'i'm an authority on the matter' card is double funny.

thats literally irrelevant, i said that because you became pedant saying i don't know what i was talking about when you drop the '"race is a social construct bomb"


you literally had no idea what you talked about, got corrected, and still in the mistake spit that you were right for whatever reason

And here we have you double dipping into the different species narrative while in same breath correcting just a little bit and using race/species as interchangeable terms:

yes its what i did because its right

Hey, you may be, i'm not questioning that, but that was a super simple matter.

you are free to try to prove otherwise, cause you just failed in every attempt, and your comeback of "race doesn't exist..." or "race is a social construct" didn't help your cause, just show that you are indeed, clueless about the subject

Also, you even failed to acknowledge that both Blood elves and Orcs had physical changes due to fel, Orcs manifesting it more vividly through their skin. No one of them became a different race, there is a reason of why Felblood Orcs and Felblood Elves exist.

i didn't failed i pointed then out, i said there is a big difference of you eye glow change due to the fel proximity as a reaction and literally drinking demon blood.

i pointed out that even HE that are alliance get the eye glow if they stay too much time in quel'thals for that time.

you again, using the false equivalence, trying to put the BE scenario in the same bag of the orc race corruption.

Seriously, next time i suggest you to not double dip into cornering yourself of making false statements, educate a bit more about the matters you want to 'wreck some clueless people with facts and logic' with, please...

You are clueless about facts, about biology and about the lore of the game ma dude, your obsession is clouding your judgment and you bias is showing

all my statements are true and you did nothing to refute then, just brought some irrelevant stuff who had nothing to do with the point, a well know HE tactic.

[FlubberPuddy]

My opinion is, after BFA - they're going to look at what most people are requesting in terms of Allied Races after the expansion. See what is popular, and see how it can be delivered based on them improving their on Allied Races system overall.

This 2nd batch of AR we received look much better off than the 1st batch. They've acknowledged possibility of Wildhammer Dwarves. My theory is based on how they do WH, it'll give information on how High Elves are implemented.

If they are not implemented before then in whichever way Blizzard decides to implement them.

[Aldo Hawk]

lol

Enough, i had enough with you.

You are now again trying to portray me as a social justice warrior to evade answers about videogame races, when in the first place you don't even know me to say that i'm that or even having a basis to state that i'm using a 'race is a social construct' card.

Enough, there may be people who can stand you, i did for a time trying to have -something- interesting to discuss and trying to have you backup for a damn time what you said.

But no, you again came out with -another- messy post, a thing you tend to do when facing strong opposition, just trying to blurry it away.

I'm not gonna bother with you anymore, search for another who can stand this crap.

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And also again if that High Elf Discord met Ion at Blizzcon and his response holds true then even Ion has changed his tone regarding High Elves, "they won't be in BFA, but that doesn't mean they won't be in wow ever"

But I take the Discord chat/image with more skepticism because it can't be verified as well short of asking Ion if the convo is true or not (which anyone is free to do).

That's another thing. Words directly from Ion stating High elves are not ruled out. What else is to search for?

Also, i'm skeptical too, but just for a normal cautious stance, it is not recorded on a video or something, but the guy made a photo with Ion and shared it in the discord.

[Syegfryed]

Enough, i had enough with you.

it doesn't like you had, cause i had already left the thread some pages ago, you brought me back

You are now again trying to portray me as a social justice warrior to evade answers about videogame races,

you know, thats not rly my point, i was not portraying yourself as someone who don't know about the subject, you did yourself that way, and you are the one bringing up SJW here not me.

when in the first place you don't even know me to say that i'm that or even having a basis to state that i'm using a 'race is a social construct' card.

you literally said race doesn't exist in biology and race is a social construct, i correct you, simple as that.

Enough, there may be people who can stand you, i did for a time trying to have -something- interesting to discuss and trying to have you backup for a damn time what you said.

But no, you again came out with -another- messy post, a thing you tend to do when facing strong opposition, just trying to blurry it away.

I'm not gonna bother with you anymore, search for another who can stand this crap.

you will face strong opposition when you are not talking the truth, HE/BE dilemma doesn't not equal the allied races, especially about green orcs and maghar its a false equivalence, no matter your mental gymanstic

HE/BE =/= Maghar orcs/Green orcs - Highmountain tauren/Normal Tauren
HE/BE = Frostwolf orcs/warsong orcs - Bloodhoof taurens/Dawnchaser tauren

simple as that

[Aldo Hawk]

lol again

I know you are, but what am I?

@FlubberPuddy Seriously dude i had to hear you before, it's exactly what you said, omegalul...

[Strippling]

In my view, the best argument for Helves is the Nightborne. If the Horde can get Night Elves of merely a different political faction, I don't see why the same can't happen with High Elves. Just make the model slightly different as Blizzard did with the Nightborne. Hell, they're still close enough that it's hard to tell the difference depending on their gear.

Nightborne are just a different political faction of Night Elves that got shoehorned into the Horde. I wouldn't see any difference between that and High Elves.

I mean, personally, myself, I think we have more than enough Elves as it is. Too many in fact. But it's disingenuous to see Hordelets hiding behind the same reasoning when that means they shouldn't have been given Nightborne at all.

Not comparable at all.

Since the city was first separated from the rest of the world over 10,000 years ago, they are no longer true night elves and have evolved by the Nightwell into a unique elven species.

High elfs on the other hand, have had no such transformation and are literally the exact same race as blood elfs. They are not a unique species. Additionally, the nightborne have been separated from the night elfs for 10000 years, plenty of time to form a completely different biology, culture, thematic and aesthetic to their night elf relatives. Again, high elfs however have only been separated from their blood elf kin for what, 15 years? As such, thematically, biologically, culturally and aesthetically they are the same. The only difference is political.

So I repeat, nightborne are not comparable to high elfs at all. They actually have legitimate differences to night elfs, as opposed to high elfs who have nearly no differences to blood elfs.

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High elves were not 'clearly' switched in order to add Void elves.

This is opinion. Not fact.

As i wrote a few pages ago: The answer we got is that they wanted to create something cool and also something similar to a Blood elf.

You missed a key word... when implementing AR's Blizzard specifically stated that they're looking for new and cool options. Key word being new. Alliance high elfs don't fit this category as the main high elven group (who have no differences apart from political to HE) are already playable and have been since TBC. Subsequently, high elfs are not new, they've been playable for over a decade.

[Aucald]

This conversation can address "race" as it is used in a purely WoW-centric fashion, e.g. the fantasy races of the Warcraft universe. Getting mired in a discussion of what race actually is going into the lands of Forbidden Topics and should be dropped. Any further back-and-forth as concerns real-world usage of race, racism, or ethnography is not permitted.

[Stelio Kontos]

Not comparable at all.

Since the city was first separated from the rest of the world over 10,000 years ago, they are no longer true night elves and have evolved by the Nightwell into a unique elven species.

High elfs on the other hand, have had no such transformation and are literally the exact same race as blood elfs. They are not a unique species. Additionally, the nightborne have been separated from the night elfs for 10000 years, plenty of time to form a completely different biology, culture, thematic and aesthetic to their night elf relatives. Again, high elfs however have only been separated from their blood elf kin for what, 15 years? As such, thematically, biologically, culturally and aesthetically they are the same. The only difference is political.

So I repeat, nightborne are not comparable to high elfs at all. They actually have legitimate differences to night elfs, as opposed to high elfs who have nearly no differences to blood elfs.

- - - Updated - - -



This is opinion. Not fact.



You missed a key word... when implementing AR's Blizzard specifically stated that they're looking for new and cool options. Key word being new. Alliance high elfs don't fit this category as the main high elven group (who have no differences apart from political to HE) are already playable and have been since TBC. Subsequently, high elfs are not new, they've been playable for over a decade.

That was an ex post facto written to explain their model differentiation. Easily done for High Elves as well. Nightborne are still basically the same model as Night Elves.

[Aldo Hawk]

This is opinion. Not fact.

'they won't be in BFA, but that doesn't mean they won't be in wow ever'

You missed a key word... when implementing AR's Blizzard specifically stated that they're looking for new and cool options. Key word being new. Alliance high elfs don't fit this category as the main high elven group (who have no differences apart from political to HE) are already playable and have been since TBC. Subsequently, high elfs are not new, they've been playable for over a decade.

Is not High elves being playable in the Alliance something new?

Also, remember, every time an allied race gets added it does with new perks for them, from all the perspectives a playable character has.

Also, again, your own point of view is not a fact.

[FlubberPuddy]

This conversation can address "race" as it is used in a purely WoW-centric fashion, e.g. the fantasy races of the Warcraft universe. Getting mired in a discussion of what race actually is going into the lands of Forbidden Topics and should be dropped. Any further back-and-forth as concerns real-world usage of race, racism, or ethnography is not permitted.

More just quoting your post for clarity.

If we're going to use "race" is it pertains to WoW purely then there must be a set definition.

The only one found that explains it is Ornyx's explanation (which was given in response to why there aren't Human and Blood Elf Shaman). Other than his, I haven't seen any other Blizzard official give an exact description of what a "race" in WoW is, so I'm going to utilize Ornyx's statement as a CM to define "race" going forward as it pertains to WoW:

"I don't think it's about their culture not being "primitive", it's more that when you play a Human or a Blood Elf, or any other race for that matter, your character comes from a specific "faction" within that race. This lends them the ability to choose what they want to "be" when they grow up, but only insofar as what that particular society offers.

Playable Humans are always from the nation of Stormwind. Playable Blood Elves are always from Silvermoon. While it's possible for there to be "break aways" in the story and for members of those races to join "opposing factions" and learn new skills, that's not something that's on offer to player characters.

If those classes were ever added to those races, I would expect specific backstory to be created for how those races adopted those techniques and rituals, such as with gnome hunters "creating" and taming mechanical beasts."

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20759267207

And his last sentence is backed up that by that now we have playable Human Shaman (and Druids) through Kul'Tirans, who have been reiterated twice to be Human. Once by Travis Day, and then again by Alex Afrasiabi post Kul'Tiran Drust theories.

Now if someone wants to point out any other definition of "race" Blizzard has, be my guest. But currently this is the most official word on the usage of the term, race.

Every other interpretation then becomes player headcanon.

[Aucald]

--- snip ---

I am specifically referring to the spooling argument above as to whether or not "race" is a biological or social construct. Discussing this topic, one way or the other, is going to inevitably tread on territory we don't allow in these forums. You are free to argue what does or doesn't constitute a race in the context of Warcraft all day long, so long as you limit it to that context and don't veer into identitarian, ethnographic, or racial generalities that touch on the real world.

"Race" as Blizzard defines is a rather loose and porous classification that has no real parallels, it's used interchangeably as both ethnicity, species, and nationality depending context. That could probably also go a long way toward explaining why this debate hasn't really moved forward in any meaningful sense, but that's as much as I'm willing to add.

[Aldo Hawk]

I just want to point out that i was not the one who brought up the idea of social construct, it was imposed to me by Syegfryed in a strange attempt to discredit my words.

After this, i'm just gonna stick with the source FlubberPuddy brought about WoW races, which, given the context, is not only not on forbidden territory, but more factual.

[Strippling]

That was an ex post facto written to explain their model differentiation. Easily done for High Elves as well. Nightborne are still basically the same model as Night Elves.

Apart from model differentiation, nightborne are also thematically and culturally completely different to night elfs. High elfs are not (with respect to blood elfs).

Physical looks isn't the only issue of concern regarding blurring faction lines.

[FlubberPuddy]

@Aucald acknowledged and well said. As for the debate moving forward, that probably won't happen until Blizzard speaks on this topic more in the future.

For the race debate in WoW, it probably won't move anywhere if everyone continues to have different definitions. It's as you said, loose and porous, so no point continuing down that road as it pertains to WoW.

Just going to go off Ornyx's statement on the matter going forward.

[Strippling]

'they won't be in BFA, but that doesn't mean they won't be in wow ever'

Can you provide the citeable source for this exact quote?

Is not High elves being playable in the Alliance something new?

Dwarfs on the Horde would be something new too, but is not going to happen because they already exist on the Alliance and Blizzard are on record multiple times for saying "faction diversity" and "the faction divide between Horde and Alliance" is integral to WoW.

Similarly, high elfs on the Alliance would be something new, but is not going to happen because they already exist on the Horde.

Also, remember, every time an allied race gets added it does with new perks for them, from all the perspectives a playable character has.

Every existing AR has more than just new "perks" distinguishing them from their core race.

LF Draenei - not only are there visual differences between them and regular Draenei, but they have differing histories ranging 1000's of years back, biologically they are different (they have been light forged) and thematically they are different (focusing more on being extremists to the light, whereas regular draenei have arcane/tribal thematics as well (such as shamanism)).

The same can be said for Mag'Har, HM Tauren, DID, Nightborne, KT and Zanda Trolls. All these AR have significant differences to their parent races, not just a slight physical difference.

VE are unique in that there is minimal historical difference between them and their parent race (BE), as opposed to the above listed AR. To make up for this, Blizz intentionally changed their physical appearance (blue skin, tentacle hair) and changed their thematic to a 'void theme' to offer enough differentiation between them and BE. Clearly HE did not fit the criteria, given that their history is the exact same as BE history (minus 10 years or so) and given that physically, culturally and thematically they offer no uniqueness in comparison to their parent race (the BE).

So in the case of HE, a few customization "perks" appears to not be sufficient enough to offer something "new and cool" which seems to be one of the confirmed (by Blizz) criteria for AR. Especially when HE cross faction boundaries, which would warrant even further differentiation to even be considered. Blizzard have clearly viewed HE as not satisfying their criteria for AR, nor their criteria for races in general (in that they value Faction diversity and have stated how integral it is to the game).. and this is apparent by the fact that A) HE are not playable, VE are though in their place, and B) Blizzard have stated twice within the last year or so that HE would blur faction lines and aren't currently being considered (and yes anything is possible in the future, but that can also be a "professional" way of letting fans down without directly doing so)

Also, again, your own point of view is not a fact.

My point of view is backed by Blizzard. Who's backing yours? The HE discord channel?

[FlubberPuddy]

Apart from model differentiation, nightborne are also thematically and culturally completely different to night elfs. High elfs are not (with respect to blood elfs).

Physical looks isn't the only issue of concern regarding blurring faction lines.

Even Ion Hazzikostas acknowledged that High Elves have "a different relationship in regards to magic and the Sunwell" this denotes a difference in culture. He also said they assimilated into other cultures when asked first Blizzcon 2017 I think. That's another acknowledgment of difference in culture.

This is just the same has saying Nightborne are different from Nightelves in regards to magic and their well of worship (Nightwell).

It's not as if the request is asking for the themes and lore of Blood Elves.

High Elven lore people want to experience through its playable race
- Loss of a home/kingdom/family/friends
- Making do with what little they had
- Fighting alongside allies that their kingdom excused themselves from
- Shoring up the relationships with the Night Elves (since the encyclopedia said they were distrusted at first)
- Cultural shifts that occurred as High Elves remaining within the Alliance

These are story beats, themes, culture that cannot be experienced by playing a Blood Elf nor a Void Elf.

[Syegfryed]

This conversation can address "race" as it is used in a purely WoW-centric fashion, e.g. the fantasy races of the Warcraft universe. Getting mired in a discussion of what race actually is going into the lands of Forbidden Topics and should be dropped. Any further back-and-forth as concerns real-world usage of race, racism, or ethnography is not permitted.

thats why said many times we should strictly stay to just wow races, and what is defined a race/specie in wow universe even we talk about wow humans, who are not real humans, to not derail the topic, but without success.

Races in wow are a bit arbitrary but easy identified

--- snip ---