1. #10081
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Only thing hitting a wall is your head.

    The very lore separates them, just like it separates orc and mag'har or draenei and lightforged.
    thats a big fat lie, you can try bend and spin the lore all you want but you are just wrong.

    Draeneis were separated from ten thousand of years and undergo a ritual to change their bodies magically

    the maghar came from another freaking dimension, with no corruption, the azeroth orcs Drank literally fel goo/demon blood

    blood eles just decide to rename themselves a few years ago, thus, the simple act of renaming do not make then a different race.
    Blood elves are not high elves.
    Are you rly using that mantra about telling something thousand times make become true? even when there is actually canon proof saying they are? just choosing what "lore is good for you" i assume?

    “We must put this misery behind us. We must enter a new chapter! And so I say to you that, as of this day, we are no longer high elves!


    Words to not change a race, no matter what they decide to call themselves they are biological high elves, they decide to change their mentality, and this do not change your race, no matter how hard you try.

    This cannot stand. While our prime directive is to rescue Aethas Sunreaver, we must also protect as many blood elves as we can."

    – Rommath, Quest: Violence in the Arena
    Making a distinction of the group, not the race, so they do not kill every high elf, rly, you are grasping so hard at staws that i can smell it

    “It unsettles me to have to fight directly with the high elves of the Silver Covenant… but I never tire of slaying Alliance.”

    – Rommath, Quest: The Kirin Tor’s True Colors
    this don't proof they are a different race, just making a distinction of a group

    “Do you know how many elves—sin’dorei and quel’dorei alike—died to defend that land? How many continue to die? And you say I should just let it go? What the hell is wrong with you?”
    ditto

    I’m a HIGH elf, not a blood elf. Don’t worry, I’m not going to suck all of the magic out of you.

    – Taela Everstride
    yes and? its like thrall saying "im a frostwolf orc, not a warsong orc, i will not cut your trees, oh rly, both are orcs

    you look like you cannot make the actual distinction of a race, or what is a race, and a group within a race, clearly common mistake in this kind of thread.

  2. #10082
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I have one person on ignore. It is not because he is rude, there are individuals who are rude who I have not ignored. Nor is it because he is a fantastic debater, I class Garfurion as one of the better pro High Elf debaters in this forum and he is not on ignore. The individual I have on ignore is on ignore for two specific reasons, which I am not going to get into on a public forum as that is not the point and would be rightfully classes as an ad hominem attack. I make this response in case you believe I am hiding from something, which is not the case.
    Wow, and here I thought it was due to my "overuse of smilies" which is what was said before.

    I'm not sure if I should feel special or not, but glad to know it's not because of me being rude.

  3. #10083
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    But an unconfirmed one.
    Hence: hypothesis!

    Dude. Hypothesis are unconfirmed by nature. When you confirm a hypothesis, it's no longer a hypothesis. it becomes a fact.

    Again, do I really need to list word definitions?

    No, they cannot.
    Yes, they can. They're the writers of the game's lore. They can do literally anything they want, story-wise. Mention a group of high-elves that wasn't mentioned before to boost their numbers? They can! Pull high elves from another dimension? Of course! Make the blood elf society have a huge internal dispute that makes many of those elves leave Silvermoon and join the high elves? Easily!

    The fact is not inconvenient, it is irrelevant. This particular point has been cited again and again to me. My response to it is the same as it has always been. So what?
    It's not irrelevant, no matter how hard you wish it to be. The high elf community is asking for high elves, not blood elves. And yet, with your constantly 'blood elves are high elves', you continue to imply that all high elves as being blood elves. They're not. There is a distinction between the two, that makes them want high elves.

    If Blood Elves are High Elves, and they are,
    But not all high elves are blood elves.

    then the High Elf fantasy is currently available to players.
    One particular, important item of the "high elf fantasy" is that they're part of the Alliance. Another particular item is that they refused to cause harm to animals to sate their addiction. Those are not present in the "blood elf fantasy". The "blood elf fantasy" is the fantasy of a race that will do whatever it takes to survive and endure, including letting go of their ancient principles. The "high elf fantasy" is the fantasy of a race that would stick to their principles.

    Because Void Elf is not a title that can be conferred. Becoming a Void Elf means going the whole hog and embracing the void as a very part of their being, which produces the physical changes that differentiated them from Blood/Alliance High Elves.
    The whole reason void elves are all purple is because of the void corruption ritual that Alleria stopped when she saved Umbric and his research team. Why is it so alien to you to consider that the more refined, safer procedure the void elf magisters research would allow some elves to retain their natural skin color? Especially since we know it is possible thanks to the existence of Alleria?

    It is irrelevant.
    It's not. Good try though. No, not really.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  4. #10084
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Snip
    The point is, what is the purpose of distinguishing the groups if that wasn't important? No one's saying they're "a different race" merely distinguished enough to be a separate playable option.

    An Orc is still an Orc, whether they are green skinned or called Mag'har are they not?

    What is the purpose also then of quotes such as, “Do you know how many elves—sin’dorei and quel’dorei alike—died to defend that land? How many continue to die? And you say I should just let it go? What the hell is wrong with you?”

    Were they not ALL quel'dorei then? Are they not ALL quel'dorei now if "Blood Elves are High Elves"?

    This is the point we're trying to make, the name actually encompasses a lot of distinguishing factors between the groups. If they were literally the same, then they would not be referring to each other with different terms.

    And obviously we see they don't just use the different terms when referring to "not kill every high elf" as the one I quoted above.

    Even you agree here with this line

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    just making a distinction of a group
    And that's the entire point of this all, High Elves are distinctive enough as a group to make for another playable option on the Alliance.

    The only ones who have ever been bringing up "they are the same race" are anti-helf distractors utilizing red herring fallacies.

  5. #10085
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you look like you cannot make the actual distinction of a race, or what is a race, and a group within a race, clearly common mistake in this kind of thread.
    Being the same biological race means nothing for the purpose of differentiating playable races.

    A lightforged draenei is still a draenei.
    A mag'har orc is still an orc.
    A dark iron dwarf is still a dwarf.
    A kul tiran human is still a human.

    High elves and blood elves may be the same biological race, but they have traits they don't share, which include physical traits (unpolluted eyes), culture (relationship to magic) and allegiance. Blood elves are not high elves, whatever you choose to call the base race both are, (we chose to call it "thalassian elves", since it avoids confusion and includes the void elves), those names mean different things nowadays.

    If they were the same thing, the game wouldn't need to have different skins and voice files for each, it could just use the same ones for both.
    Last edited by DeicideUH; 2019-05-06 at 12:36 AM.
    Whatever...

  6. #10086
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    The point is, what is the purpose of distinguishing the groups if that wasn't important? No one's saying they're "a different race" merely distinguished enough to be a separate playable option.
    the point is he is wrong, they are the same race

    you can say about different groups and talk about if blizzard can add the same race again just because they are another group, this is not my concern not even my point, but saying they are not the race is simple wrong.
    An Orc is still an Orc, whether they are green skinned or called Mag'har are they not?
    you are again using the false equivalence

    you are trying to compare blood elves and high elves to maghar orcs and green orcs, or other allied race like taurens and highmountains this is wrong,

    you can compare a BE and HE dilema with Warsong orcs and Frostwolf orcs, both are the exactly same race of orc but from different groups, exactly like the elves

    the rest is not my problem and i don't want dig in the rabbit hole.
    And that's the entire point of this all, High Elves are distinctive enough as a group to make for another playable option on the Alliance.
    they are not distinctive enough, all other allied races have biological and magic altered distinctions, not just changing their names and putting feathers on their hair.

    you will have to wait until a magic event make then different(like what happened with void elves), wait some thousand of years of speciation or more, taking account how elves reproduce slow or just give up and wait for half elves, who in my opinion is ten times better for the baggage it can bring from dnd and they would be the same legolas vibe you guys so desperately want.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Being the same biological race means nothing for the purpose of differentiating playable races.
    it actually means everything, because all allied races are not the same biological race they came from, they have distinguishable differences in their appearance both by magic ways or biology, making then different.

    i already answer about this false equivalence in the post above

  7. #10087
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    it actually means everything, because all allied races are not the same biological race they came from, they have distinguishable differences in their appearance both by magic ways or biology, making then different.
    It means nothing.

    First, because there is at least one notable physical difference between high and blood elves: the eyes.

    Second, because orcs are orcs, and dwarves are dwarves. Thrall and Aggra had children. Moira and Dagran also did. No one questioned that until the high elf debate started. We even called them sub-races before the "allied race" system was introduced.

    Third, I'm still waiting you to counter my quotes from canon lore with canon lore that supports your position.
    Whatever...

  8. #10088
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    It means nothing.
    you cannot decide what mean and what not this is not how it work

    First, because there is at least one notable physical difference between high and blood elves: the eyes.
    this not a notable physical difference, cause the change it not actually in the eyes, but in the glow of the eye, related to the magic they are using or being affected by, as per lore say even high elves that stay too much time in quel'thalas would have the same glow

    this is not a difference of race, a human with blue eyes is the same race of a human with brown eyes.

    Second, because orcs are orcs, and dwarves are dwarves.
    Again, you are using the false equivalence, dwarves and orcs are already in a distinction of genre, not just specie

    Green orc and maghar orc are both orcs, both not the same specie of orcs, they have not just decades of racial difference they also came from another reality and didn't suffer the effects of corruptions by drinking demon blood

    Meanwhile Warsong orcs and frostwolves orcs are both orcs YET the same specie of orcs, they just chose to rename themselves in another clan(group)

    Blood elves and high elves enter in the same ground of the second, not the first one.

    Thrall and Aggra had children. Moira and Dagran also did. No one questioned that until the high elf debate started. We even called them sub-races before the "allied race" system was introduced.
    And alleria did have a child with Turalyon this also mean that elves and humans are the same race too?

    your logic is poor.

    Third, I'm still waiting you to counter my quotes from canon lore with canon lore that supports your position.
    they are already countered, you just chose to ignore

    they are the same race
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2019-05-06 at 12:54 AM.

  9. #10089
    You’re never gonna give it up!
    They’re always gonna let you down.
    ‘cause their name is Blizzard and
    they said it’s not happening!

  10. #10090
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the point is he is wrong, they are the same race

    you can say about different groups and talk about if blizzard can add the same race again just because they are another group, this is not my concern not even my point, but saying they are not the race is simple wrong.
    Again, who is saying they aren't the same race? Literally the only people who keep chiming in about "they are the same race" is you and most other anti-helfers. People who want High Elves don't give a shit if they are the same race.

    Being the same race doesn't preclude you from becoming a playable option. If this was true we wouldn't have the AR system in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you are again using the false equivalence

    you are trying to compare blood elves and high elves to maghar orcs and green orcs, or other allied race like taurens and highmountains this is wrong,

    you can compare a BE and HE dilema with Warsong orcs and Frostwolf orcs, both are the exactly same race of orc but from different groups, exactly like the elves

    the rest is not my problem and i don't want dig in the rabbit hole.
    Of course you don't want to "dig in the rabbit hole" because you know you'll be proven wrong just like what I'm about to ask you right now

    You say comparing Mag'har Orc to Green Orc or Tauren to Highmountain is wrong? Why is it wrong?

    Are you telling me that Mag'har Orc and Green Orc are NOT the same race, they both are NOT Orcs? Answer this question, I really want to see your answer to this bolded portion.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    this not a notable physical difference, cause the change it not actually in the eyes, but in the glow of the eye, related to the magic they are using or being affected by, as per lore say even high elves that stay too much time in quel'thalas would have the same glow

    this is not a difference of race, a human with blue eyes is the same race of a human with brown eyes.
    But you'd consider a human with dark skin vs a human with light skin a different race then? Because that's practically what you're saying lol.

    "races" in WoW aren't actual races, they're more "ethnicities". If "Races" had to stay different we wouldn't be having 3 different kinds of Humans (4 if you count dead humans), or 2 dwarves/orcs/tauren/trolls/draenei, 4 elves, etc etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    And alleria did have a child with Turalyon this also mean that elves and humans are the same race too?

    your logic is poor.
    And that child is referred to as a "Half-Elf" because he actually had different racial parents: A Human father and Elf mother.

    The only person's logic being poor here is yours. No wonder you'd like to have Ogres be playable one day. I hope they are too, for your sake.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Green orc and maghar orc are both orcs, both not the same specie of orcs, they have not just decades of racial difference they also came from another reality and didn't suffer the effects of corruptions by drinking demon blood

    Meanwhile Warsong orcs and frostwolves orcs are both orcs YET the same specie of orcs, they just chose to rename themselves in another clan(group)
    You realize that "Mag'har" literally means "Uncorrupted" right? You realize that every Green Orc was once "Mag'har" and that even if they are Green now they can still mate, have a child, and it's still referred to as "the same species" which is Orc.

    The Green Orcs still carry every single tradition/culture that "Mag'har Orcs" carry. There's nothing different about these two groups besides one is green skin and the other is brown.

    If skin color is all it takes then make some Brown Elves with the High Elves and we're good to go. Cuz High Elves and Blood Elves have different traditions/culture as well as their difference in eye color.

    No one is going around calling Thrall and Aggra's child a half-orc/half-breed/different species orc. Because both groups are still Orcs. Holy crap the obtuseness in this one post.

  11. #10091
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    this not a notable physical difference, cause the change it not actually in the eyes, but in the glow of the eye, related to the magic they are using or being affected by, as per lore say even high elves that stay too much time in quel'thalas would have the same glow
    So, a physical difference caused by a cultural difference is to be ignored because you say so?

    BY the concept of "race" you are trying to push, worgen and humans are the same race. Worgen are humans, they even breed human children. However, they are a different "race" for gameplay purposes because they have a curse that allows them to turn into wolf humanoids and back.
    Whatever...

  12. #10092
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Again, who is saying they aren't the same race?
    literally the other guy say blood elves are not high elves

    they are, end of the history.
    Being the same race doesn't preclude you from becoming a playable option. If this was true we wouldn't have the AR system in the first place.
    it does actually, all allied races are tagged as different races by blizzard, not even just "subraces"

    Of course you don't want to "dig in the rabbit hole" because you know you'll be proven wrong just like what I'm about to ask you right now
    no, i don't want because i don't like spinning in the same circle of you guys denying the truth all the time, is tiresome and i have better things to do

    you do not proof anyone wrong, maybe in your head to think you did, but thats it.
    You say comparing Mag'har Orc to Green Orc or Tauren to Highmountain is wrong? Why is it wrong?
    i literally said why is wrong, in a easy way that even you guys can understand, well, i can't do much by now
    Are you telling me that Mag'har Orc and Green Orc are NOT the same race, they both are NOT Orcs? Answer this question, I really want to see your answer to this bolded portion.
    Stop trying to distort things, they are not the same race of orcs, but a different race of orc

    meanwhile a warsong orc and a frostwolf orc are the same race of orc, same with high elves and blood elves same race of elf

    Orcs and dwarves and others are genre, not specie/race, its not hard to grasp

    But you'd consider a human with dark skin vs a human with light skin a different race then? Because that's practically what you're saying lol.
    Race in the real world its another point of discussion and its taboo, i don't want to dig into this to not derail the topic neither have the mods to close it.
    "races" in WoW aren't actual races, they're more "ethnicities".
    no, they are more "species", race its just the generic fantasy setting.

    And that child is referred to as a "Half-Elf" because he actually had different racial parents: A Human father and Elf mother.
    you simple didn't understand the point and try to respond

    The only person's logic being poor here is yours. No wonder you'd like to have Ogres be playable one day. I hope they are too, for your sake.
    there is no correlation and you are use trying to dismiss what i say, its hilarious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    So, a physical difference caused by a cultural difference is to be ignored because you say so?
    its not a physical difference neither is caused by a cultural difference

    you are just making things up
    BY the concept of "race" you are trying to push, worgen and humans are the same race.
    nop im not, you are trying to distort my words trying to prove an invalid point

    Worgen are humans, they even breed human children. However, they are a different "race" for gameplay purposes because they have a curse that allows them to turn into wolf humanoids and back.
    Again with the false equivalence, when one falls you drag another

    i will not wait until you bring undeads
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2019-05-06 at 01:32 AM.

  13. #10093
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    This is the Syegfryed respose to my "Are you telling me that Mag'har Orc and Green Orc are NOT the same race, they both are NOT Orcs?" question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they are not the same race of orcs, but a different race of orc
    Thanks dude, this is all I needed.

  14. #10094
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    This is the Syegfryed respose to my "Are you telling me that Mag'har Orc and Green Orc are NOT the same race, they both are NOT Orcs?" question.



    Thanks dude, this is all I needed.
    Nice rhetoric, i did miss those HE threads, always good laugh

    go on, continue to show that you do not have any knowledge about biology, its pretty funny

  15. #10095
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    go on, continue to show that you do not have any knowledge about biology, its pretty funny
    Since when biology matters in a world where beings of stone evolved into flesh?
    Also, by using biology as argument, you end up with my worgen counter-argument. Worgen are biologically humans.

    (Also, strictly speaking in biological terms, races do not exist)
    Whatever...

  16. #10096
    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    As opposed to the thousands of HE's that some believe to exist?
    There's 1 high elf per 9 blood elves.
    So, you choose, either there are thousands of high elves or the blood elves are less than 9,000, barely enough to fill a large town.
    For void elves to surpass high elves, you'd need a big exodus of blood elves.

    Kael'thas forces in Outland numbered 15% of the blood elves, including the Scryers. High elves number 4/5, or 80%, as many as that. And, according to Vargoth, Kael's forces numbered in thousands.
    Last edited by DeicideUH; 2019-05-06 at 02:31 AM.
    Whatever...

  17. #10097
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Actually i tend not to respond to you as I seem to get a flurry of responses for what I post and I prioritise responding to those I have been engaged in lengthier conversation with given how much time composing appropriate responses takes. But if you want to think it's because you've unanswerable arguments, that's entirely your choice. Don't worry, if you make a point that catches my interest I will respond.
    "I cherry pick softball arguments to write essay long replies to. They let me move goalposts and concede arguments to me - like not bringing up Pandaren - you do not. Blocked."
    I have < 10 comments in this thread (anyone can check my post history), and you responded until I called out misinformation about Kul Tirans that was intended to deflect the most popular arguments against High Elves. Kul Tirans are not half Drust. Kul Tirans did not drink contaminated water. Kul Tiras were not an isolated nation. Word of God said that Kul Tirans are Human. Superficial differences - they're fat - is enough difference to be confirmed as an AR. Fat is a "race" now. You do not need a 1000 years of evolution to get a fat human.

    Main Anti High Elf Arguments

    High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race. You cant have two playable versions of the same race. Pandaren dont count for some reason.
    Humans prove this wrong. You can play as a Kul Tiran, Stormwind, and Guilnean Human.

    Because High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race, they must look exactly alike.
    Humans prove this wrong again. They are one race, but have a variety of appearances. Fat, muscular, tall, average, skinny - and children/babies prove they can show age too.

    My counter arguments are quick, clear and to the point. No subjective wall of text. Just facts. Well?\

    Edit: Adding Harland Sweete as another physical variation of Human.
    Last edited by Alixie; 2019-05-06 at 04:52 AM. Reason: harlan Sweete

  18. #10098
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Since when biology matters in a world where beings of stone evolved into flesh?
    since we are talking about species and races yes it matters
    Also, by using biology as argument, you end up with my worgen counter-argument. Worgen are biologically humans.
    the curse is a condition who make then different, same as the undead condition, elves do not have this is an entirely different subject that should not be put in the same bag.

    (Also, strictly speaking in biological terms, races do not exist)
    Thats also another thing you do know about, cause it do exist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    Humans prove this wrong. You can play as a Kul Tiran, Stormwind, and Guilnean Human.
    they don't because they are not the same race of humans, clearly they have differences and lore to proof that

    the difference from a high elf to a blood elf is the same of a human in the old town and a human in the mage quarter, none
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2019-05-06 at 02:54 AM.

  19. #10099
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the curse is a condition who make then different, same as the undead condition, elves do not have this is an entirely different subject that should not be put in the same bag.
    If two Gilneans have a child, that child is born as a regular human without the Worgen Curse. This is why Worgens that we play are still biologically humans. This is backed up by Word of God.

    Therefore Worgen are another race of humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Thats also another thing you do know about, cause it do exist.
    He does know about it, you clearly don't. He's saying "Race" is not a scientific term (aka speaking 'biological terms'). Race is a social construct.

  20. #10100
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    If two Gilneans have a child, that child is born as a regular human without the Worgen Curse.
    but you play with the guilnean child without do curse buddy? you don't, if you want you play a regular human and roleplay as a guilnean

    Therefore Worgen are another race of humans.
    they are worgens, even if another race of humans, they are not the same humans, this already end your false analogy

    they clearly have distinguishable morphological differences

    He does know about it, you clearly don't. He's saying "Race" is not a scientific term (aka speaking 'biological terms'). Race is a social construct.
    Race its not a social construct, you also don't know about it, its easy to do a quick search before saying that.

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