Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Varx]

There is no confusion.

Some people just don't want to acknowledge that Blizzard didn't make Kul'Tirans NPCs look any different from Stormwind playable Humans since WoW started until BFA where they decided to make them different "for more variety" and playable.

And that's the point "helfers" are trying to make, the models didn't get variation until it was decided by Blizzard they're going to be playable. Lore and all explanations for it came after the fact.

Like Blizzard's mantra: Gameplay first.

They don't force themselves into boxes based on the lore/story/history, they'll change whatever they want then make justification after the fact. Just like they did with Kul'Tirans.

Gameplay first, sure i know their philosophy. But there has to be some kind of lore explanation after. Fat kul tirans have the fact that they have been living in kul tiras all this time, a place which until recently was not accessible.

High elves on the other hand dont have the same excuse. Being away from the sunwell causes the wretch effect when lacking will power and undergoing some kind of magical change would cause them not to be helves anymore.

What lore justification could there possibly be for the sudden emergence of a type of helf that has a different rig than the others which would serve as the playable ones.

First, said reason would be light years level of reach.

Second, what kind of helf would you guys want? Fat, roided, skinny, there ain't too many options. And a different stance could just be like the orc treatment.

[FlubberPuddy]

Gameplay first, sure i know their philosophy. But there has to be some kind of lore explanation after. Fat kul tirans have the fact that they have been living in kul tiras all this time, a place which until recently was not accessible.

High elves on the other hand dont have the same excuse. Being away from the sunwell causes the wretch effect when lacking will power and undergoing some kind of magical change would cause them not to be helves anymore.

What lore justification could there possibly be for the sudden emergence of a type of helf that has a different rig than the others which would serve as the playable ones.

First, said reason would light years level of reach.

Second, what kind of helf would you guys want? Fat, roided, skinny, there ain't too many options. And a different stance could just be like the orc treatment.

You're still missing the point. It's not that "High Elves don't have the same excuse". It's that Blizzard is going to make up any excuse if they do decide they're going to be playable.

How do you think Void Elves came about? That their own rep to unlock em isn't even about them (Argussian Reach) shows that Blizzard didn't "care for lore justification". As simply stated by them, it was something "new and cool" they wanted to do.

Btw you have other things wrong like the "wretch" thing with Thalassians, they become wretched from over-feeding on magic, not being away from the Sunwell. That's the Nightborne you're getting them confused with.

[Varx]

You're still missing the point. It's not that "High Elves don't have the same excuse". It's that Blizzard is going to make up any excuse if they do decide they're going to be playable.

How do you think Void Elves came about? That their own rep to unlock em isn't even about them (Argussian Reach) shows that Blizzard didn't "care for lore justification". As simply stated by them, it was something "new and cool" they wanted to do.

Btw you have other things wrong like the "wretch" thing with Thalassians, they become wretched from over-feeding on magic, not being away from the Sunwell. That's the Nightborne you're getting them confused with.

I do get the point. What im saying is that there is practically nothing that blizzare could do.

They cant under go a magical change.

There isn't a far off warcraft 2 alliance high elf island with a crazy environment.

And on top of those what body type for a different helf rig would even be acceptable????

You come up with a good reason to justify a new rig, like how fat kt were just living away in Kul Tiras and buffing up by doing what they were doing and the anti helfer will have nothing to stand on.

[FlubberPuddy]

I do get the point.

What im saying is that there is practically nothing that blizzare could do.

I mean you can say "I get the point" but sure doesn't seem like it to me.

[Syegfryed]

Right so basically when developer commentary doesn’t support you just ignore and use your headcanon backed up by nothing but player speculation.

no, tignore something and use headcanon is a HE strategy, good thing the developer commentary don't refute nothing that i said, they are humans, no one denied that, just not the regular humans, exactly like taurens

At least those pro for High elves acknowledge what the developers say and work with it logically instead of going , “nah it’s confirmed cuz I say so”.

arran sure, they do this, of course

[Varx]

I mean you can say "I get the point" but sure doesn't seem like it to me.

Ok instead of saying i don't understand and completely ignoring everything i say how about you come up with a reason.

Isnt that the entire point of this thread? To find logical solutions to the inclusion of helves. There plenty of hair and tattoos ideas which have been pretty cool.

But if you cant come up with a solution to the real issue (lore-wise, why playable helves suddenly appear differently than belves) then you guys lost the entire purpose of this thread.

[FlubberPuddy]

But if you cant come up with a solution to the real issue (lore-wise, why playable helves suddenly appear differently than belves) then you guys lost the entire purpose of this thread.

That's been the entire purpose of this thread, there's been loads of ideas on how Blizzard could modify the model. The more rugged lifestyle and beeifer models, living with human culture etc etc.

For instance check this out:



Compare that to this:



The first pic showcases less exaggerated hips (straighter posture), rounder face, slightly chunkier model. And obviously a more human cultured hairstyle. All of that can be explained by "assimilating into other cultures" as Ion stated.

This is lore-wise backed up as everyone and their mom knows that High Elves have been living with humans, people even meme about them as the "human potential elves" or what not.

And Elisande, an NPC created and voiced by Blizzard employees, even points this out in an attempt to take a jab at how the High Elves live today.

That's plenty, there's nothing refuted by Blizzard (as Syegfred up there likes to state) that an Allied Race needs to be separated by a millennia or centuries in order to change appearances.

Find me where Blizzard refutes this (as Syegfred likes to use this reasoning too) and then you'd have grounds to say "there's nothing Blizzard can do" with changing the appearance.

EDIT: Like I said before, Blizzard's got variations of lean/athletic models with the Night Elves, Blood Elves, Nightborne. As well as different variation of Beefy models with Humans/Draenei/Orcs/Tauren/Kul'Tirans, etc.

It's silly to think that there isn't another variation of lean/athletic appearance that High Elves could get (which is supported by lore) when we have 5-6 different variants on "beefy" models.

[Garfurion]

https://it.wowhead.com/npc=23836/bos...rdia-dellovest

Looks like there may be different representations of the same race within world of warcraft having different looks and not being a variation of any kind.

Something like a change in posture would make for a nice touch for a group withing the game. Not even modifying the model itself. Orcs didn't became Orcus erectus or something like that isn't it? XD

I wasn't aware of that one but as I already listed here there already were variations on human models in the game. I think Vanilla had even more because developers wanted more variety in the world instead of just the playable models.



also the Hillsbrad Citizen of Old Hillsbrad Foothills


Perhaps a nice hight comparison between Gerald Green and a Storwind human I found this image (probably too big to link here directly).


Also, for Dwarves there is ofc Yarley

[Varx]

That's been the entire purpose of this thread, there's been loads of ideas on how Blizzard could modify the model. The more rugged lifestyle and beeifer models, living with human culture etc etc.

For instance check this out:



Compare that to this:



The first pic showcases less exaggerated hips (straighter posture), rounder face, slightly chunkier model. And obviously a more human cultured hairstyle. All of that can be explained by "assimilating into other cultures" as Ion stated.

This is lore-wise backed up as everyone and their mom knows that High Elves have been living with humans, people even meme about them as the "human potential elves" or what not.

And Elisande, an NPC created and voiced by Blizzard employees, even points this out in an attempt to take a jab at how the High Elves live today.

That's plenty, there's nothing refuted by Blizzard (as Syegfred up there likes to state) that an Allied Race needs to be separated by a millennia or centuries in order to change appearances.

Find me where Blizzard refutes this (as Syegfred likes to use this reasoning too) and then you'd have grounds to say "there's nothing Blizzard can do" with changing the appearance.

EDIT: Like I said before, Blizzard's got variations of lean/athletic models with the Night Elves, Blood Elves, Nightborne. As well as different variation of Beefy models with Humans/Draenei/Orcs/Tauren/Kul'Tirans, etc.

It's silly to think that there isn't another variation of lean/athletic appearance that High Elves could get (which is supported by lore) when we have 5-6 different variants on "beefy" models.

Ok, that's a start. But honestly that would fit more with half elves.

Why would helf bodies begin drastically changing just because they live in human cities. They still retain their thalassian culture in SW and dalaran.

[FlubberPuddy]

Ok, that's a start. But honestly that would fit more with half elves.

Why would helf bodies begin drastically changing just because live in human cities. They still retain their thalassian culture in SW and dalaran.

Again, nothing is refuted by Blizzard that states they don't. Going with that logic it holds true. And already gave you the reasons for why, so why are you asking again "why would bodies begin drastically changing"?

You're basically asking me the same thing again, after I shown visually how they could change, and gave the reasonings for it which is supported by both lore in-game and what's been stated by Blizzard.

Saying "they still retain their culture" is the same thing as what I was saying earlier with Kul'Tirans looking like Humans until they were made playable.

Blizzard hasn't decided to make them playable yet so they're not spending effort to showcase this. It's the same reasoning Obelisk Kai has given for why High Elves aren't showing up Golden Eyed like Blood Elves are. "Because right now they're an NPC race".

[Uthan]

Ok, that's a start. But honestly that would fit more with half elves.

Why would helf bodies begin drastically changing just because live in human cities. They still retain their thalassian culture in SW and dalaran.

They wouldn't have to have any change based in lore tbh, they could just be represented by a different standard person. That there's only 1 body model per playable race doesn't mean that all or even the majority of that race looks anything close to that, just that that's what Blizzard gave us as the playable model, like how 1 model gets to represent Kul Tirans even though we know Kul Tirans come in a wide variety of different body types (and lore-wise everything in between).

[Varx]

Again, nothing is refuted by Blizzard that states they don't. Going with that logic it holds true. And already gave you the reasons for why, so why are you asking again "why would bodies begin drastically changing"?

You're basically asking me the same thing again, after I shown visually how they could change, and gave the reasonings for it which is supported by both lore in-game and what's been stated by Blizzard.

Saying "they still retain their culture" is the same thing as what I was saying earlier with Kul'Tirans looking like Humans until they were made playable.

Blizzard hasn't decided to make them playable yet so they're not spending effort to showcase this. It's the same reasoning Obelisk Kai has given for why High Elves aren't showing up Golden Eyed like Blood Elves are. "Because right now they're an NPC race".

Ok, ok fair enough. I personally feel like living with humans as a reason to be a weak one but i guess it would check out. Fat kt being fat cuz living in kt is pretty weak too.

[Grythletubs]

Just a friendly reminder that:

-playable high elves will not hurt you

-high elves already exist and are part of the alliance, which is why people are requesting them

-playable high elves will not hurt blood elves

-playable high elves will not hurt the blood elf story

-A random stranger person, playing a high elf, has virtually no effect on you whatsoever

-the blood elf story will continue, despite high elves being playable

And finally,

-This is a concept thread, no one is holding a knife to Blizzard's throat DEMANDING high elves. Let the fans be fans, whether or not they're playable in the future

[Aldo Hawk]

Just a friendly reminder that:

-playable high elves cannot hurt you

-high elves already exist and are part of the alliance, which shows nobody died by that

-playable high elves cannot hurt blood elves

-playable high elves cannot hurt the blood elf story

-A random stranger person, playing a high elf, is not a threat to your personal view

-the blood elf story will continue, despite high elves being playable because they are two different groups

And finally,

-This is a concept thread, no one is holding a knife to Blizzard's throat DEMANDING high elves. Let the fans be fans, whether or not they're playable in the future

I like this one, let me modify it to create a version of mine.

[Garfurion]

then why you proceed to point out ingame size model as source?

To show that your claim that Kul Tirans are twice the height of normal humans is incorrect.

its a big factor of difference if the average of a race is that high compared to the variation of the race

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say.

Assuming the height of a species is normally distributed I assume that the average height of species would be larger than the variance.

Also, the fact that we didn't see Kul Tirans in game before doesn't mean they didn't exist in lore. So our perception of the average, variance and range of human height on Azeroth was probably incorrect.

because its way more easy to talk about when we talk about specie, breed is not something objective or biologically verifiable classification, like its said in your post,

Alex Afrasiabi used the term "breed" so if you don't agree with the term you'll have to take this up with him.

it don't show rly, by real life methods and evidences we would put then as different race/specie of human, or at least a sub-specie, like we did with ancient humans like H. neanderthalensis H. habilis etc.

Based on the statement by Allex Afrasiabi the large Kul Tirans cannot be classified as a different species. If he had meant sub-species or different species he could have said so.

its the same thing as kul'tirans and normal humans

What lore source or evidence is there to make this claim. Highmountain Tauren were altered by a Wild God. To the best of my knowledge Kul Tirans were not.

they are different enough to be considered another specie/race or at least a subspecie/race

On what grounds. In the case of Large Kul Tirans we have multiple lore sources explaining why large Kul Tirans have a different model in game. The terminology used by Alex Afrasiabi rules out that they are a different species or subspecies.

its because we can have dna or genetic studies about then, so we can only differentiate species/races in wow by the old method of comparrison and morphology

they are clearly different morphological, and with other factors like genetic isolation show how they can already be new species/race

I'm pretty certain that is incorrect because:
1. Kul Tiras was never isolated, and
2. even if it had been isolated, the Founder effect and genetic drift would have resulted in reduced genetic variation meaning all Kul Tirans would look very similar.

What we see in game is the opposite. The population of Kul Tiras seems very diverse in their appearance (at least in wow terms).

cause it show that kul'tirans are not regular humans

They are the same species, why would their appearance make them irregular ?

HE and BE are exactly the same, said many times by the devs and lore sources

That is not entirely correct. Ion Hazzikostas stated last year that High Elves and Blood Elves have slightly different eye colors so they are not exactly the same.

The Warcraft Encyclopedia

I looked for the exact text you quoted on the High and Blood Elves related pages of the Warcraft Encyclopedia but I wasn't able to find it. Could you maybe indicate which page of the Warcraft Encyclopedia your quote came from ?

Or did you mean this quote:

"High elves and blood elves are physiologically the same race, and they are descended from night elves. Nevertheless, due to their shared history and philosophical differences, the three groups do not share a close relationship." -- Warcraft Encyclopdia: High Elves and Blood elves

[Grythletubs]

I like this one, let me modify it to create a version of mine.

Yours is better.

I just don't get what motivates these "antis" to be so obnoxious. If you don't like high elves, OK. We don't need a 600 page long essay as to why you don't like high elves.
It's not like high elf fans will suddenly stop talking about a race they're passionate about, just because of a few spiteful folks who think it somehow damages them having people play them, they are already part of the alliance...What's the big deal?

"High elves can stay npcs, but if someone plays one it hurts me!"

Chill, out, people.

[Syegfryed]

To show that your claim that Kul Tirans are twice the height of normal humans is incorrect.

but you said yourself ingame model don't count

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say.

if the average size of a kul'tiran is 7ft, at least 2ft taller than the average of normal humans, this already show the race variation

Assuming the height of a species is normally distributed I assume that the average height of species would be larger than the variance.

the avarage should be the "normal" height

So our perception of the average, variance and range of human height on Azeroth was probably incorrect.

its not because this is only restricted to kul'tirans.

Alex Afrasiabi used the term "breed" so if you don't agree with the term you'll have to take this up with him.

Alex is a game designer not someone who understand what a breed or a race is, regardless, a different breed of human its already something different, exactly like dogs.

Based on the statement by Allex Afrasiabi the large Kul Tirans cannot be classified as a different species. If he had meant sub-species or different species he could have said so.

the largers can be considered as a different species if we use basic biologic differentiation, again, what Alex said do not vanish this outcome, breed is something not used in actual biology, like is said in the wiki you quote, they already fall in the sub race/specie, and if we can indentity more diferences it can be a different specie of human.

What lore source or evidence is there to make this claim. Highmountain Tauren were altered by a Wild God. To the best of my knowledge Kul Tirans were not.

highmountain taurens undergo a evolution process, same as kul'tirans, it don't need to be just magic.

On what grounds. In the case of Large Kul Tirans we have multiple lore sources explaining why large Kul Tirans have a different model in game. The terminology used by Alex Afrasiabi rules out that they are a different species or subspecies.

even so, totally different from the HE/BE who are the exactly the same.

I'm pretty certain that is incorrect because:
1. Kul Tiras was never isolated, and

they were, being allowed the trade is not some proof.

genetic isolation happen in different ways, even in the same group, they only need to stop trading genes, some kul'tirnas could still trade genes with other humans, and other could totally be absent on this.

2. even if it had been isolated, the Founder effect and genetic drift would have resulted in reduced genetic variation meaning all Kul Tirans would look very similar.

thats not how it work always, with isolation they suffer mutation and with no genetic trade they can be altered drastically.

They are the same species, why would their appearance make them irregular ?

because they are not the regular humans, is this rly that hard? i even use the exemple of dogs and how you can have totally different breeds, even the same "specie" they are totally different, this do not happen with HE/BE thats why is dumb compare then.

That is not entirely correct. Ion Hazzikostas stated last year that High Elves and Blood Elves have slightly different eye colors so they are not exactly the same.

eye color is totally irrelevant when BE could have blue eyes too, an eye glow is not a parameter

Or did you mean this quote:

yeah

- - - Updated - - -

This is lore-wise backed up as everyone and their mom knows that High Elves have been living with humans, people even meme about them as the "human potential elves" or what not.

so, in your head, because they live with humans, for a few years, the entire group of elves somehow change their body structure to become more like humans for the sole reason of living close? for real? this is your solution? 4Head

if you at least were talking about half-elves it could make totally sense, but this? come on

That's plenty, there's nothing refuted by Blizzard (as Syegfred up there likes to state) that an Allied Race needs to be separated by a millennia or centuries in order to change appearances.

every allied race spend decades in isolation to evolve into something different and/or was heavy affected by magic to be different.

they will not suddenly change HE model because they live with humans for a few years, with no logic, just because you guys create this fanfiction.

It's silly to think that there isn't another variation of lean/athletic appearance that High Elves could get (which is supported by lore) when we have 5-6 different variants on "beefy" models.

unless you want fat elves, its not silly.

[Alixie]

then show they, point out the giant humans with different morphology can be encounter in all human kingdoms

Is this a question? Here's Lordaeron citizens showcasing all body types, including the big fat and tall Kul Tiran type. As I said before, almost all famous Kul Tirans, including ones from Drustvar, use the "Stormwind Human" model.

like is pointed out those kul'trans are from a different breed/sub-race than regular humans, not the regular one, even if there was no drust ancestry/blood, they would totally be another kind of human, unlike elves who are exactly the same.

And what about the Thin Kul Tirans? Or is thin human another race too? Maybe the thin humans are descendants of Forsaken women? It explains the osteoporosis.

ironically you are just ignoring that this argument "in favor of high elves" is fanfiction, its not supported by lore, your argument is "they can do if they want" with no logic behind, where are the elves who live like lumberjacks? they don't exist, you want to create one from thin air, and even if they do, those sort of changes do not happen in two days or 2 years, it take thousand of years, just like the kul'tirans.

Claiming that Kul Tirans are half Drust, or mutated humans, a different breed of humans, or were an isolated nation is fanfiction. Three game directors have said that Kul Tirans are Humans. Having the physique of a quarterback, or an emancipated 80 year old, does not make them a different "Race" of human. It does not make the other Kul Tirans who look different from them a different race.

If Blizzard wanted to make Grimtotem Tauren an AR; they'd have their own customizations that separate them from regular playable Tauren, but they'd still be of the Tauren race. These are how the 3 Human options work: like clans, only they're kingdoms. If they really wanted, they could make Stromguard Human another AR - and to make them visually different, they could be super thin humans.

then they would be half-elves, tagged as another breed of elves, i see no problem with this, its the He community, marjory at least, that is adamant and only want pure HE
half-elf would be way better, who could bring way more unique things supported by their lineage, and not just fanfiction, and would still had the HE look with different things, that we can see in games like dnd

I doubt any supporter would be against some distant human ancestry (aka the false Drust theory) to explain different physiques or brown skin tones. They would operate like the MagHar Orcs. A conglomeration of uncorrupted High Elf (maghar) clans, that include Half Elf, human and dwarf influence.

[Syegfryed]

Is this a question? Here's Lordaeron citizens showcasing all body types, including the big fat and tall Kul Tiran type. As I said before, almost all famous Kul Tirans, including ones from Drustvar, use the "Stormwind Human" model.

this is not the 'kultiran type" its just a fat human, pretty much like gallywix is a fat goblin, kul'tirans are more than that

And what about the Thin Kul Tirans? Or is thin human another race too? Maybe the thin humans are descendants of Forsaken women? It explains the osteoporosis.

"thin human" is not the point, even so, they seem to be another breed of human as well.

Claiming that Kul Tirans are half Drust, or mutated humans, a different breed of humans, or were an isolated nation is fanfiction.

half-drust is speculation with actual canon lore

mutated humans is obviously canon because they are not like normal humans

different breed of humans is also canon, the quote was brought here from a HE supporter

The kul'tiran nation being isolated is also canon, isolation don't mean no contact with the outside world.

Three game directors have said that Kul Tirans are Humans.

yeah, and i confirmed that, being different kind of human don't make then not humans

Having the physique of a quarterback, or an emancipated 80 year old, does not make them a different "Race" of human. It does not make the other Kul Tirans who look different from them a different race.

the problem is, they do not have just the physique of a quarterback, this is oversimplification, the set of characters is way bigger than that and fit the sub-race/specie category

If Blizzard wanted to make Grimtotem Tauren an AR; they'd have their own customizations that separate them from regular playable Tauren, but they'd still be of the Tauren race.

they would have to retcon a lot of shit, cause grimtotem, pretty much like any other normal tauren tribe are the same, there is no sense or lore support to make then an allied race/variation of the tauren(like HE...)

I doubt any supporter would be against some distant human ancestry (aka the false Drust theory) to explain different physiques or brown skin tones. They would operate like the MagHar Orcs. A conglomeration of uncorrupted High Elf (maghar) clans, that include Half Elf, human and dwarf influence.

this is just so they can be called "HE" even when they are not anymore? the name is rly that important? cause this don't make rly sense, maghar orcs are the same race just wit different skin color, with the other you are working with 2 different genes

we are talking about "pure half-elf" the ones we have in dnd and other games, this is way more fluid if blizzard actually decide to create lore, they would actually make sense to be like human, because they are part human, not just because they live with then a few years.

[vertigo12]

this is not the 'kultiran type" its just a fat human, pretty much like gallywix is a fat goblin, kul'tirans are more than that



"thin human" is not the point, even so, they seem to be another breed of human as well.


half-drust is speculation with actual canon lore

mutated humans is obviously canon because they are not like normal humans

different breed of humans is also canon, the quote was brought here from a HE supporter

The kul'tiran nation being isolated is also canon, isolation don't mean no contact with the outside world.


yeah, and i confirmed that, being different kind of human don't make then not humans


the problem is, they do not have just the physique of a quarterback, this is oversimplification, the set of characters is way bigger than that and fit the sub-race/specie category



they would have to retcon a lot of shit, cause grimtotem, pretty much like any other normal tauren tribe are the same, there is no sense or lore support to make then an allied race/variation of the tauren(like HE...)


this is just so they can be called "HE" even when they are not anymore? the name is rly that important? cause this don't make rly sense, maghar orcs are the same race just wit different skin color, with the other you are working with 2 different genes

we are talking about "pure half-elf" the ones we have in dnd and other games, this is way more fluid if blizzard actually decide to create lore, they would actually make sense to be like human, because they are part human, not just because they live with then a few years.

And yet Worgens are basically human who just got afflicted by worgen curse. How about if Worgens goes wild and bite every other races? They would be considered worgen too and add Worgen customization option right? Elven Worgen, Troll Worgen, Dwarven Worgen, Gnomish Worgen, Orc Worgen, Draenei Worgen.

Welcome to WoW: World of Worgencraft