Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

Alright, so what you're saying is that what would make velves an acceptable compromise in the eyes of helfers would be a future update in in-game text and lore that confirms the inclusion of high elves in the ranks of velves.
Despite this having 0 effect on the models themselves.

I'm sorry but that is some next level OCD. I mean i get your point I really do, but like REALLY???? How anal retentive does an individual have to be and be that particular. Kuddos for your passion Ill give you that.

No, you're still not getting it dude and strawmanning.

There is a huge difference between the reality that is now, and how a future update happens. Also you assume that Blizzard wouldn't use helves joining velves to bring in new customization for velves.

You're sticking to one scenario, with no proof that scenario will happen, but acting as if that's what's going to happen. Then trying to low key insult others as if they're claiming the scenario that you yourself made up.

Textbook example of a strawman right there.

[Varx]

No, you're still not getting it dude and strawmanning.

There is a huge difference between the reality that is now, and how a future update happens. Also you assume that Blizzard wouldn't use helves joining velves to bring in new customization for velves.

You're sticking to one scenario, with no proof that scenario will happen, but acting as if that's what's going to happen. Then trying to low key insult others as if they're claiming the scenario that you yourself made up.

Textbook example of a strawman right there.

How is that a strawman. So you said that based on current text all velf players are originally belves. Ok fair enough.

You also said that if velves were introduced as helves first then it would have been acceptable.

I can then assume if there was a lore update in game to reflect this then helfers would be happy based on what you said.

Since this would have no visual impact on the velves then its makes helfers ridiculously OCD and trivial. Like just go play a velf now and be happy.

[Obelisk Kai]

So you admit the idea that there might be more high elves around than void elves since we have a lot more high elf NPCs around than void elves, ranging from vanilla to BfA, is plausible?

Not for a moment. The developers have been consistent for many years now in regards to Alliance High Elves, even going as far back as the Warcraft encyclopedia or the 2005 Caydiem post. They are nearly all dead. Alliance High Elves are actually fairly rare in game, only showing up in anything approaching noticeable numbers in Allerian Stronghold (I have heard about Allerian Stronghold so often, and been there on my Alliance character so rarely, that I decided to take a trip there just to remind myself about it as I wrote this sentence) where a few named High Elf NPCs are accompanied by a few nameless High Elf rangers. The town appears to be pre-dominantly Human however.
The vast majority of Alliance High Elves encountered though are associated with Dalaran. And each encounter with this group takes place at a discrete moment in time. Assuming the High Elf NPC outside the Silver enclave in Dalaran northrend is forever locked there, and in no way could have participated in the siege of suramar or the isle of thunder campaign, cannot hold water. Given that we are told time and again Alliance High Elf numbers are low, it is far more likely that we are seeing the same elves time and again in different locations, rather than an entirely new group being created each time. While this is true for all races, the point need only be enunciated for Alliance High Elves, whose fans treat every appearance as proof that they are actually numerous.

As for Void Elf numbers, they have only been active since the end of Legion and despite that we are seeing plenty of them out in the world, far more than the Alliance High Elves in BFA. I especially point out the number of Void Elves who participated in the Nazmir suicide mission, which means their numbers must have been substantial enough to sustain that loss.

But I do have evidence: the void elves show the blood elves "making the choice" and leaving Silvermoon to join the Alliance.

Yes, to become Void Elves, not Alliance High Elves. And the Blood Elves you speak to in Telogrus give you a very clear reason as to why they are there, the ability to study a form of magic outlawed by Silvermoon. You have evidence therefore that Blood Elves are being tempted by the powers of the void to become Void Elves. This is zero evidence towards Blood Elves converting to being Alliance High Elves.

No. The closet thing to a high elf is playable. Blood elves are not high elves in the sense that they abandoned the name, abandoned their principles, and belong to the Horde, not the Alliance. That's like saying "if you want to play as a purple-skinned elf, the Alliance is there for you". But now we have nightborne for the Horde.

Blood Elves ARE High Elves. It is hard to say they abandoned their principles, when their history began and has been defined by a reckless approach to magic, perhaps those who are now Alliance High Elves were always on the fringes of their society and more predisposed to breaking off in the first place? Warcraft Encyclopedia confirms that there aren't many spellcasters among the Alliance High Elves, which is definitely unrepresentative of a society as fixated on magic as the Blood/High Elves.

The name is an ultimate irrelevance, you'd be as well to say that a Burkinabe is different from an Upper Voltan because the name of their country was changed from Upper Volta to Burkino Faso. They are still the same people and hence, High Elves are playable.
Being a part of the Alliance is the ultimate mistake. The faction they are on does not determine who they are, and the Alliance does not have the right to confer the status of 'the true high elves' on a nearly dead group of exiles.

As for the Nightborne, they aren't purple. They are actually a distinctive shade of dark blue, as visually distinct from the pink/purple Night Elves as the chalk white/gray/blue Void Elves are from the fair skinned Blood/High Elves.

It's not "mental gymnastics". It's the truth. High elves wouldn't get the model update if they were closer to the night elves than blood elves in body shape. And Kul'tiras humans are also the exact same race as the other humans, and looked the exact same, up until they point they became playable.

It is mental gymnastics. You are arguing Alliance High Elves are a distinct, separate race worthy of it's own model. Yet you are also arguing that they got upgraded at the same time as the Blood Elves got upgraded, with the same model no less, because of their 'closeness'. That is verging on doublethink, having two mutually contradictory ideas and holding each valid. The simpler answer, the true answer, is that both were upgraded with the same model because they are the same race.

There is none for the Kul'tiras humans, either. They're just humans. 100%. As for the high elves, to appease you, Blizzard could make one. Case in point: one perfect opportunity that was squandered? Void elves. They could've made Umbric and his group high elf researchers.

Which just begs the question, why would Alliance High Elves get a new model when Void Elves, who went through a process that could justify it, did not? In fact, given we now have confirmation that Alliance High Elves can become Void Elves, how do you reconcile the idea of a new model for Alliance High Elves with becoming a Void Elf? Would Void Elves now have to have access to both models to preserve the fiction? How could someone roleplay as an Alliance High Elf who embraced the void if they can no longer look one? This is an example of how Alliance High Elves can damage the Void Elves, let alone the damage they can cause to the Blood Elves.

I fail to see the relevance considering none of those races I put in bold in this quote are part of the Alliance and have been since the game's inception. High elves are not playable. When I go to the character creation screen, there is no "high elf" option on the blue banner side of the race selection. Hence: high elves are not playable.

Blood Elves are High Elves. Multiple sources confirm this fact. Defining a race by it's faction is the wrong way to approach things. The factions are defined by their member races, hence why maintaining the Blood Elves as a unique Horde option is important for the overall identity of the Horde. The idea of a high elf is not defined by political allegiance.

So is my hypothesis.

No it is not. Your hypothesis has no evidence. The difference with Elisande is that somehow, she was aware of truths regarding all the groups. That she knew the truths means she is somehow aware of the world outside Suramar. Being told by the Legion is one way, her own intelligence network another, using magical scrying is another. The method is irrelevant, what matters is she knows.

No, I do have evidence that supports my idea: void elves. Those are blood elves that willingly and knowingly left Silvermoon and the Horde to join the Alliance.

Discussed above. Restatement, you have evidence of Blood Elves becoming Void Elves, and their motivation is the power of the void as they themselves tell you. Evidence for Blood Elves becoming Void Elves is not evidence for Blood Elves becoming Alliance High Elves.

And Blizzard's "no" on classic servers, on demon hunters, on opposite faction characters on PvP realms, etc... were all "incredibly consistent"... until we got Classic WoW, until we got demon hunters, until we were allowed to make characters of opposing factions on PvP realms, etc. I mean, their "no" on classic WoW has been "consistent" for over ten years.

Still a fallacy to claim that them saying no is a prelude to them saying yes. And to get to yes on those matters, they had to review them. Alliance High Elves were considered as an Allied race. We know this because Ion listed them as a potential candidate for a sub-race back in 2015 (alongside Mag'har who were added) and because Ion was then able to give a list of reasons in 2018 as to why they weren't happening. If there was ever a moment to switch from 'no' to 'yes' on Alliance High Elves, it was during that phase of decision making.

Ok: first of all, what you jut wrote there in no way addresses what I put forth. Second: there could always be blood elves wanting to join the Alliance and their high elf cousins.

Firstly, they are not cousins, they are the same race. Night Elves are cousins to thalassian elves. Nightborne are cousins to Night Elves, as there has been ten thousand years of separation between them and Night Elves, and the transformative impact of the Nightwell. Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves have had a philosophical disagreement within the past fifteen years, that is the sum total of their major differences.
Second, we have evidence of Blood Elves wanting to become Void Elves, but none whatsoever for Blood Elves wanting to become Alliance High Elves. It is a non-factor as a result.

Um... source on that claim, please?

The cinematic in which Alleria ate the heart of a Naaru and assumed her void form for the first time. The Void Form spell is listed in the database as 'Void Elf transform'.
Given she could not assume this form prior to eating the heart of the naaru, the logical assumption is that until she ate the heart of the naaru she was just a high elf wielding void magics.

If you really want to get technical, then she isn't a "void elf" either because her skin is not permanently purple.

The void is now an intrinsic part of Alleria, just as it is a part of all other Void Elves. Alleria defines herself as a Void Elf in the opening cinematic and quests for Void Elf players. Alleria is a void elf, but a unique one due to her status as a hero character similar to the sword wielding priest Anduin or the Human looking Undead Nathanos.

And yet they blurred the lines anyways by giving the night elf model to the Horde, and the blood elf model to the Alliance, so that "excuse" goes right out the window.

Not when they stated that Alliance High Elves blur the lines several months after Void Elves had been added. The model transfer is regrettable, but theme, aesthetic and identity of both Blood Elves and Night Elves are preserved and are unique for both factions despite the Void Elves and Nightborne.

So you're basically admitting to handwaving my hypothesis because it's not a "hard canon fact". Lovely. The point is: blood elves have left the Horde to join the Alliance. Which is supporting evidence for my idea.

It is not, because every Blood Elf you are citing is becoming a Void Elf and each of them cites the excitement of using void magic, rather than loyalty to the Alliance, as a motivating factor.

- - - Updated - - -

Alright, so what you're saying is that what would make velves an acceptable compromise in the eyes of helfers would be a future update in in-game text and lore that confirms the inclusion of high elves in the ranks of velves.
Despite this having 0 effect on the models themselves.

I'm sorry but that is some next level OCD. I mean i get your point I really do, but like REALLY???? How anal retentive does an individual have to be and be that particular. Kuddos for your passion Ill give you that.

Confirmation that Void Elves can convert other willing Elves is implicit in game from the Alliance High Elves congregating in Telogrus to the sheer number of Void Elves being inconsistent with Umbric's small initial group being the sole source (enough to send a substantial number on a suicide mission no less).

The polygon interview with Moorgard offered final confirmation of the blatantly obvious, that this is a thing that is happening.

Regardless, I do not believe it will make much of a difference. The word of a developer is disregarded once again simply because it does not tally with what many pro High Elfers want. They have to reject what Moorgard is saying, because to accept what he is saying at face value means the option to play an Alliance High Elf is available right now in the form of a Void Elf. And that means accepting Void Elves as the thalassian elves of the Alliance.

To admit then that a Void Elf is unacceptable because they look different is to admit that talk about 'lore' or 'history' is bunk and that it has always been about the aesthetic rather than the lore. That looks awful of course, so to simply deny Moorgard said what he said no matter how self-evident his words were (particularly if you include the exact question he was asked, and don't attempt to twist Moorgard's words in isolation from that question) is the course of action adopted.

[Ielenia]

Not for a moment.

So, NPC population is indicative of lore population when it suits your arguments, but not when it doesn't suit your arguments. And you accuse me of double-think.

Yes, to become Void Elves, not Alliance High Elves.

Irrelevant. The point is that we do see elves choosing to leave Silvermoon and the Horde.

Blood Elves ARE High Elves.

But not all high elves are blood elves. And it's those high elves people want to play as.

It is mental gymnastics. You are arguing Alliance High Elves are a distinct, separate race worthy of it's own model.

The only "mental gymnastics" here is coming from you. I'm looking at the evidence the way it's presented. Kul'tiran humans had no model of their own until they became playable, and they're 100% the exact same race as the Stormwind humans. And when I say "get their own model" it's just the way Blizzard could make the two race distinct with small things like hair styles, tattoos, beards, etc.

Which just begs the question, why would Alliance High Elves get a new model when Void Elves, who went through a process that could justify it, did not?

Then don't make them different. I don't care how they look, as long as they're high elves. Which is why one of my proposed ideas way back in this thread was to make Umbric and his research team high elves instead of blood elves.

Blood Elves are High Elves. Multiple sources confirm this fact.

And multiple don't, with blood elves making clear definitions they're not high elves. There's some examples back in this thread.

No it is not. Your hypothesis has no evidence.

It has. You handwaving the fact that blood elves are making the choice to turn to the Alliance doesn't change the fact my hypothesis does have supporting evidence.

Discussed above. Restatement, you have evidence of Blood Elves becoming Void Elves, and their motivation is the power of the void as they themselves tell you. Evidence for Blood Elves becoming Void Elves is not evidence for Blood Elves becoming Alliance High Elves.

No, this is you moving goalposts. You said there were no evidence of blood elves "making the choice" to be part of the Alliance, and when presented with undeniable evidence that they are, you move the goalposts by saying "oh but they're looking for power, it doesn't count."

Still a fallacy to claim that them saying no is a prelude to them saying yes.

Except that's not what I said, was it? I simply pointed out how them saying no is not a reason for people to stop asking and requesting, because Blizzard has shown that they change their minds regarding a much-requested topic. Like Classic WoW, which has been a "definitive no" for over ten years.

Second, we have evidence of Blood Elves wanting to become Void Elves, but none whatsoever for Blood Elves wanting to become Alliance High Elves. It is a non-factor as a result.

So you're saying joining the void elves is not the same thing as joining the Alliance. Are you saying void elves are a "neutral group"? That they're not Alliance? Despite Alleria being heavy Alliance, and Umbric speaking how he dreams of bringing Silvermoon back to the Alliance?

The cinematic in which Alleria ate the heart of a Naaru and assumed her void form for the first time.

"First time"? Source on that claim? How do we know she hasn't shown that happening when she was training under Locus-Walker before we got to Argus?

Given she could not assume this form prior to eating the heart of the naaru, the logical assumption is that until she ate the heart of the naaru she was just a high elf wielding void magics.

"Could not"? Source on that claim?

Not when they stated that Alliance High Elves blur the lines several months after Void Elves had been added.

And excuse that is completely bollocks when, despite them giving us pandaren and repeating that "excuse" for several years, they still gave void elves to the Alliance and nightborne for the Horde.

The model transfer is regrettable, but theme, aesthetic and identity of both Blood Elves and Night Elves are preserved and are unique for both factions despite the Void Elves and Nightborne.

If it really was "regrettable", nightborne would've been added to the Alliance, and void elves to the Horde. Not to mention that things would be "balanced" in the sense that each faction would get one lore-rich race and one ass-pull race, instead of the Horde getting two lore-rich races, and the Alliance two ass-pull races.

It is not

It is. I'd say "nice try, though", but it wasn't.

[Obelisk Kai]

So, NPC population is indicative of lore population when it suits your arguments, but not when it doesn't suit your arguments. And you accuse me of double-think.

As I stated we have consistent commentary from Blizzard that the Alliance High Elf population is incredibly low. The Cayidem 2005 post, the Warcraft Encyclopedia and both times Ion was asked about playable High Elves. In game since the end of TBC, Alliance High Elves have only appeared in anything approaching significant numbers as members of the Silver Covenant, and the three expansions in which they can be said to have played a part were all expansions which involved Dalaran. Therefore, it really isn't too much of a logical leap that the groups of Alliance High Elves seen are the same tiny group of Elves performing different tasks. The contrast with the Void Elves is that they have been playable for just over a year and are already appearing with greater frequency across the space of a single expansion than the Alliance High Elves have.
So in summary, NPC population is indicative of lore population but is only part of the story. Lore commentary as well plays a factor. Now, Void Elves have been defined as a small crack squad, so I don't expect them to have a huge or even a moderately sized population. But your initial question was whether I considered there to be more Void Elves than Alliance High Elves. That is hardly a low bar for them to breach and given how they can recruit, one I have little doubt they managed to overcome.

Irrelevant. The point is that we do see elves choosing to leave Silvermoon and the Horde.

To join the Void Elves to wield void magic, not out of love of the Alliance. To take a UK political analogy, this is like saying there is proof that Labour voters are leaving to vote for Change UK because some Labour voters are declaring they are going to vote for the Liberal Democrats. Proof would be a Blood Elf, any Blood Elf, renouncing Silvermoon to join the Silver Covenant. Do you have a single instance of a Blood Elf actually doing that? Just ONE please.

But not all high elves are blood elves. And it's those high elves people want to play as.

You can play a Void Elf who was a member of the Silver Covenant and has been consistently loyal to the Alliance, who never became a Blood Elf, who never joined the Horde but who sought to embrace the Void. That option is open to you. If you choose not to take that option, then trying to argue it is all about 'lore' or 'history' rings very hollow.

The only "mental gymnastics" here is coming from you. I'm looking at the evidence the way it's presented. Kul'tiran humans had no model of their own until they became playable, and they're 100% the exact same race as the Stormwind humans. And when I say "get their own model" it's just the way Blizzard could make the two race distinct with small things like hair styles, tattoos, beards, etc.

Hairstyles? Beards? That's not differentiation at all, that could easily be copied. Real differentiation is something not replicable or reversible. Void Elf skin tones and their tentacles and the real differentiation between the two groups, not the goatees.

Then don't make them different. I don't care how they look, as long as they're high elves. Which is why one of my proposed ideas way back in this thread was to make Umbric and his research team high elves instead of blood elves.

If you accept that Void Elves can convert other Elves, and I believe you do, then you can. So what is stopping you?

And multiple don't, with blood elves making clear definitions they're not high elves. There's some examples back in this thread.

A Blood Elf is the redefinition of what a High Elf is. Besides, nobody has managed to produce a convincing argument as to how Blood Elves are NOT High Elves. It usually boils down to over-emphasising the eye colour, appealing to an abstract concept that the Alliance High Elves are somehow 'nobler' than the Blood Elves or that political affiliation is enough to change race.

It has. You handwaving the fact that blood elves are making the choice to turn to the Alliance doesn't change the fact my hypothesis does have supporting evidence.

This is an easily refuted point, I have done so twice in this thread already. It is getting tiresome to continually do so however. However I will do so again. You have proof Blood Elves are turning into Void Elves to join the Alliance. This is not evidence that they are joining the Alliance High Elves.

No, this is you moving goalposts. You said there were no evidence of blood elves "making the choice" to be part of the Alliance, and when presented with undeniable evidence that they are, you move the goalposts by saying "oh but they're looking for power, it doesn't count."

These individuals TELL you why they are studying the void. Go into Telogrus with a Void Elf and feel free to ask them. They literally tell you the reason they are here is to get this power. Sure, Umbric expresses a preference for the Alliance in the war campaign, but he didn't have a choice regarding becoming a Void Elf. These new converts may have had a choice, and all of them seek the power of the void rather than to aid the Alliance. If aiding the Alliance was their primary motivation, why don't we see Blood Elves joining the Silver Covenant and becoming Alliance High Elves?

Except that's not what I said, was it? I simply pointed out how them saying no is not a reason for people to stop asking and requesting, because Blizzard has shown that they change their minds regarding a much-requested topic. Like Classic WoW, which has been a "definitive no" for over ten years.

Them saying no isn't a reason to stop asking, but each no (or even no comment on the topic at a major event) is always a crushing event for pro High Elfers. There is also the problem that pro High Elfers treat each time Blizzard did change their mind as evidence that persistence on the part of pro High Elfers means victory is inevitable. This is the worst false equivalence indulged by pro High Elfers. It neatly sidesteps the many, many instances Blizzard said no and stuck to their guns. As an active example, look at how the water strider controversy is rumbling on and Blizzard has not backed down. Or ask the players who have demanded flying be unlocked as soon as they hit the level cap in each expansion how successful they've been?

So you're saying joining the void elves is not the same thing as joining the Alliance. Are you saying void elves are a "neutral group"? That they're not Alliance? Despite Alleria being heavy Alliance, and Umbric speaking how he dreams of bringing Silvermoon back to the Alliance?

Void Elves are not Alliance High Elves. Void Elves ARE different. Alliance High Elves are identical to Blood Elves except in terms of their political allegiance.

"First time"? Source on that claim? How do we know she hasn't shown that happening when she was training under Locus-Walker before we got to Argus?

Talk to her on the Vindicaar and ask her about what happened, she will happily fill you in.

The fact that she never demonstrated the ability prior to that moment, or that it was felt the moment deserved a cinematic, and that the event leading up to the cinematic was her absorbing a powerful void being, demonstrates that this was indeed the first time it occurred.

"Could not"? Source on that claim?

See above. You are not making a logical argument by denying it was the first time this happened. Let us remind ourselves, you are attempting to argue that Alleria came by her Void Elf form another way that did not involve eating the heart of a Naaru so as to argue future Void Elves would be able to replicate her method, and not Umbric's, and thus have a toggle option. Leaving aside the very deliberate choices as to why Void Elves look the way they do, your argument is completely spurious given that the sequence of events, Alleria eats the heart of a dark naaru and then manifests her Void Elf form, have a direct cause and effect relationship.

Update: I just happened to be re-reading the Three Sisters comic, as it was mentioned in a post put up on WoWhead. On page 19, Sylvanas flat out calls Alleria (in her Void Elf form) an abomination and says 'Are you not? Transformed - Nay - TWISTED by a Fallen Naaru'. I regard this particular statement as being definitive proof of what was obvious to everyone anyway, that Alleria became a Void Elf form upon consuming the heart of a Dark Naaru.

And excuse that is completely bollocks when, despite them giving us pandaren and repeating that "excuse" for several years, they still gave void elves to the Alliance and nightborne for the Horde.

At this point I am sure you are familiar with the usual retort that Pandaren neutrality was a mistake that Blizzard regretted. And the differences between Void Elves/Nightborne and Blood Elves/Night Elves could be seen as taking the feedback from Pandaren to heart, in that they provided variants of each race to the other faction rather than complete duplicates.

If it really was "regrettable", nightborne would've been added to the Alliance, and void elves to the Horde. Not to mention that things would be "balanced" in the sense that each faction would get one lore-rich race and one ass-pull race, instead of the Horde getting two lore-rich races, and the Alliance two ass-pull races.

Frankly, I am still a little surprised they went out of their way to give you a thalassian elf variant at all. I actually would have given the Alliance Nightborne, and the Horde undead Elves, but that is just me. Still, the Alliance has a thalassian elf of it's very own, one which can be roleplayed as Alliance High Elves who never sided with the Horde and who have accepted the void.

The real kicker though in calling the Void Elves an 'ass-pull' race in the context of this argument is that it implies that Alliance High Elves, which I have no doubt you would have found more than acceptable, are a 'lore-rich' race. Thing is, while Void Elves are fairly recent, the individuals who have become Void Elves are not. For the vast majority of their lives they were either Alliance High Elves or Blood Elves. Which means Void Elves share 99% of their lore with Blood/High Elves. To call Void Elves an ass-pull is to deliberately ignore where they came from, and where they came from is what I am consistently told what you actually want. The only way Void Elves would have been 'lore-rich' is if they were a completely separate group of thalassian elves we had never heard of who had never encountered the Alliance or the Horde and had their own history. A history that would have had zero to do with the Alliance.

This is less that Blizzard didn't give you what you want, but that you are determined to reject what was given to you because you won't accept Blizzard had genuine red lines regarding faction diversity and Blood Elven integrity. As far as I can see, Void Elves are lore rich in that they spent the vast majority of their lives and Blood/High Elves and that it was actually a kindness for Blizzard to introduce them as they did, because you can roleplay them as a former Blood Elf who has come back to the Alliance, an Elf obsessed with power, or an Alliance High Elf who never wavered in their commitment to the Alliance and now wields the void so they can be a stronger member of the Alliance.

[FlubberPuddy]

As for the Nightborne, they aren't purple. They are actually a distinctive shade of dark blue, as visually distinct from the pink/purple Night Elves as the chalk white/gray/blue Void Elves are from the fair skinned Blood/High Elves.

Nightborne: https://www.wowhead.com/quest=49427/...r-purple-elves

"Ye know, <name>, these elves might be purple, but they're no' with the Alliance."

Void Elves:


"Why are void elves purple?" - Kul Tiran Orphan 2019

For someone that likes to proclaim

It is mental gymnastics.

You sure are doing a fair share of it yourself.

The polygon interview with Moorgard offered final confirmation of the blatantly obvious, that this is a thing that is happening.

You are still the only person (pretty much) in the room holding his response = High Elves are turning into Void Elves.

First, it isn't "Moorgard", it's Steve Danuser that answers this question:

"If they come from a small group of Silvermoon Exiles, how are they an Allied Race? Where do the numbers come from?"

Nothing here is asking about High Elves, it's simply asking - "we know they come from Silvermoon Exiles" (confirmation they're all Blood Elves), "where do the numbers come from?"

Nothing about High Elves.

Now the answer: “They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues. “But it’s natural as other elves have found out about them — elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities — would see if they could undergo a similar process. They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest.”

Answer includes nothing about High Elves, only "elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities". That doesn't sound like Alliance High Elves at all. And again, Danuser continues it with "They're not...recruiting".

Also let's look at what they said about Void Elves in this interview right before the question was asked:

"Void Elves, the newest Alliance Allied Race, have been one of the most controversial additions yet. The most common critique is that they came out of nowhere, unlike the established races we met during Legion. According to Danuser, this was intentional.

'The Void Elves were a case where we didn’t want the Allied Races to be something you were always familiar with before. We wanted to introduce new ideas, and new opportunities,' Danuser says. With Alleria Windrunner’s story being an internal success on Argus, the team saw it as the opportunity for a new twist on elves."

Therefore we see their intent with Void Elves, which is backed up by when they said they added Void Elves because it was "something new and cool". Here we see them saying it was "intentional" that they came out of nowhere, that Void Elves are the case of something they "didn't want [it] to be something you were always familiar with before" and it's an "opportunity for a new twist on elves".

Thus again, backed up by developer commentary - these are not the elves that High Elf fans have been asking for, these are not the elves for people who wanted a familiar elf on the Alliance. They're intentionally developed to have "come out of nowhere" and be "a new twist".

So again, as I said to @Varx , "Just RP" isn't a valid argument. You're basically telling people to deny reality, which in this case is that Void Elves were not the High Elf compromise, but an opportunity to have a new twist of elves.

This is less that Blizzard didn't give you what you want, but that you are determined to reject what was given to you because you won't accept Blizzard had genuine red lines regarding faction diversity and Blood Elven integrity.

First, when Blizzard has "genuine red lines" they will consistently re-iterate that. We have seen their view on High Elves being playable (in some form) change just within 2018 itself. From the April response by Ion "no plans in the near term" to the Blizzcon 2018 response by Alex "it's possible, don't give up hope".

This isn't the same as other topics you are comparing it to like the upset over Portals or how flying isn't available upon release. Both of these topics Blizzard constantly and consistently re-iterates the same response. Whereas, as you pointed out Ion in 2015 included High Elves as possibility, then 2018 Ion said no plans for em, then Alex 2018 says it's possible don't give up hope.

Not sure about you, since you deny clearly purple elves, but that doesn't look like consistent stance to me. That they're not in the game yet means nothing, neither are Ogres but you'd be hard-pressed to find people hollering about them never getting added. Because the commentary by the developers is what is to be judged regarding discussion of this kind of topic (added an Allied Race).

As far as I can see, Void Elves are lore rich in that they spent the vast majority of their lives and Blood/High Elves and that it was actually a kindness for Blizzard to introduce them as they did, because you can roleplay them as a former Blood Elf who has come back to the Alliance, an Elf obsessed with power, or an Alliance High Elf who never wavered in their commitment to the Alliance and now wields the void so they can be a stronger member of the Alliance.

As I proved above, "just RP" isn't a valid reasoning to prevent the addition of an option. I'm sure people who hate tmog can "just RP" it's not in the game and play it that way. I'm sure people who don't appreciate having both Horde and Alliance on same server can "just RP" that they can only make Horde or Alliance per server.

The point here is that both groups have the option of doing that. One person "can RP" tmog doesn't exist. The other person can go ahead and use tmog. Same for the server situation.

What you cannot do currently in-game is have the other person play an Alliance High Elf, while the one "can RP" their Void Elf is one. Only one group here is currently served by the in-game choices. And that's what it's all about: providing more options for the players.

To "RP" Void Elves as you're suggesting is to deny the reality that the developers have stated for the Void Elves.

These Elves are something they "didn't want [it] to be something you were always familiar with before".

So on one hand, you're telling people off for disregarding developer commentary when they "don't want to accept what was given", but then at the end you "don't accept what was given" and want to deny the reality and developer commentary for Void Elves and just "RP" them as in your examples above.

It's funny that you can claim people are doing "mental gymnastics" when it's so clear that's the same term that can be applied to yourself. I guess it's true that what someone says shows a lot more about themselves than who they're speaking of.

- - - Updated - - -

For someone who constantly tries to have other people "face the reality" of a situation. It's hilarious to see that same person advocating to not "face the reality" of a situation by roleplaying - which is the exact opposite of facing the reality.

[Garfurion]

"If they come from a small group of Silvermoon Exiles, how are they an Allied Race? Where do the numbers come from?"

Nothing here is asking about High Elves, it's simply asking - "we know they come from Silvermoon Exiles" (confirmation they're all Blood Elves), "where do the numbers come from?"

Nothing about High Elves.

Now the answer: “They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues. “But it’s natural as other elves have found out about them — elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities — would see if they could undergo a similar process. They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest.”

Answer includes nothing about High Elves, only "elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities". That doesn't sound like Alliance High Elves at all. And again, Danuser continues it with "They're not...recruiting".

Sounds like Nightborne to me....or perhaps some Eldre'Thalas Highborne who didn't rejoin the Night-Elves yet Would be nice to have some different body types for Void Elves to add some flavor to the world

[Obelisk Kai]

snip

I have, likely against my better judgement, removed you from ignore due to the quote Garfurion responded to below. It led me to review your entire message and to post this response.

Firstly, Steve Danuser IS Moorgard. Moorgard is in his handle in the same way Watcher is Ion Hazzikostas' handle. Steve Danuser has been using it as far back as when he was a community manager on the Everquest 2 boards and maybe earlier.

Secondly, your interpretation of the polygon interview is as misguided as was your interpretation of the very original Jessie Cox interview in 2017 when Ion said no to Alliance High Elves when you argued Alliance High Elves hadn't been announced because he was simply trying to misdirect us. You have form in trying to pretend the developers have not said what they have said if it is incompatible with your goal.

Now let's continue with

"If they come from a small group of Silvermoon Exiles, how are they an Allied Race? Where do the numbers come from?"

Nothing here is asking about High Elves, it's simply asking - "we know they come from Silvermoon Exiles" (confirmation they're all Blood Elves), "where do the numbers come from?"snip

Which you have interpreted to mean they are all Blood Elves. Now, several points.

Alliance High Elves are all Silvermoon exiles. They were exiled from Silvermoon after all. If you read in the Shadow of the Sun, many of them are still upset about that. However the term Silvermoon Exiles was one put forward by the polygon interviewer. Now it does in fact refer to the initial group that was transformed with Magister Umbric because the interviewer is clearly referencing the original group in that question, but saying Silvermoon Exiles somehow excludes Alliance High Elves is quite the claim.

The question itself is posed because the interviewer is trying to reconcile the small group that was depicted among the initial transformees, and the numbers we have seen in game which does not match that. Moorgard provides the answer.

Answer includes nothing about High Elves, only "elves who are interested in new sources of magic, power, or opportunities". That doesn't sound like Alliance High Elves at all. And again, Danuser continues it with "They're not...recruiting".

This is incorrect. This is demonstrably incorrect.

https://ibb.co/7zM5qLJ

There are High Elves literally in Telrogus who are audibly 'interested in new sources of magic, power or opportunities'. They are right there. You can go and talk to them yourself. I've even included a helpful link to an image showing what they say. I would argue that is your image of the Alliance High Elves that is in conflict with the reality as presented by the game and not that it 'doesn't sound like Alliance High Elves at all' because there is an Alliance High Elf doing what you say they shouldn't be doing.

And no, they aren't recruiting. In fact, if you include the full quote from the interview and not just arbitrarily cut if off Moorgard says 'They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest'. Which means they aren't seeking out others to join them but others are seeking them out to join of their own accord. Which clearly includes Alliance High Elves.

So I am left with my usual conclusion.

Moorgard was explicit and clear in what he said. The Void Elves began as a small group of exiles from Silvermoon transformed in an accident. While they are not recruiting, they are accepting of those who seek them out. We can see in Telogrus those who have sought them out, which include Alliance High Elves. These individuals are learning to wield the void and will, at the appropriate moment, be turned into Void Elves.

You reject this answer because it is one at odds with your professed goals. To accept the Void Elves can turn other thalassian elves into Void Elves means that yes, you can play an Alliance High Elf who skipped the Blood Elf phase and then became a Void Elf. Which means that everyone who has argued all they ever wanted was to play a high elf who remained loyal to the Alliance all these years, Void Elves are the answer. If they aren't the answer despite that, well, that means all those times people said aesthetics and theme weren't the issue but lore was weren't exactly being truthful, now doesn't it?

[Fetus Rex]

If they add High Elves, they better give them better posture. Their queer stand sway is over the top.

[Ielenia]

To join the Void Elves to wield void magic, not out of love of the Alliance.

Nothing but moving goalposts. You said we didn't have blood elves "making the choice", and when presented with blood elves "making the choice", then you move the goal posts, adding caveats after the fact.

Hairstyles? Beards? That's not differentiation at all, that could easily be copied. Real differentiation is something not replicable or reversible. Void Elf skin tones and their tentacles and the real differentiation between the two groups, not the goatees.

Says the guy despite the fact two races in the game literally increase their population by "replicating" a process.

If you accept that Void Elves can convert other Elves, and I believe you do, then you can. So what is stopping you?

Lore. I can play a void elf or a blood elf and pretend my character is a high elf, but that doesn't mean my character is a high elf.

A Blood Elf is the redefinition of what a High Elf is.

And high elves are the original definition of what high elves are, which is what people want.

This is an easily refuted point, I have done so twice in this thread already.

And both times you failed. Hard. "Moving goalposts" does not "refute" anything.

These individuals TELL you why they are studying the void.

What they say is irrelevant, because they're irrelevant to your first claim, that we don't have blood elves "making the choice". We do. And you, in an attempt to save face, engage in blatant shift of the goalposts.

Them saying no isn't a reason to stop asking, but each no (or even no comment on the topic at a major event) is always a crushing event for pro High Elfers.

If it was, they would've stopped asking a long time ago. Yet... every time they hear 'no', they seem to want it even harder. It's almost as if every 'no' is not a "crushing event", but almost an incentive to keep asking.

Void Elves are not Alliance High Elves.

And that's the crux of the issue, and why so many high elf supporters don't like void elves, and why they're not a compromise.

Talk to her on the Vindicaar and ask her about what happened, she will happily fill you in.

The fact that she never demonstrated the ability prior to that moment, or that it was felt the moment deserved a cinematic, and that the event leading up to the cinematic was her absorbing a powerful void being, demonstrates that this was indeed the first time it occurred.

Or perhaps it's a culmination of all the power she absorbed into herself. We can tell she has already been hearing whispers, long before we even met her again, when Locus Walker said: "Remember: as long as your mind is your own, you control this power."

At this point I am sure you are familiar with the usual retort that Pandaren neutrality was a mistake that Blizzard regretted. And the differences between Void Elves/Nightborne and Blood Elves/Night Elves could be seen as taking the feedback from Pandaren to heart, in that they provided variants of each race to the other faction rather than complete duplicates.

Yeah, and prove that the retort was nothing but bollocks. Because they gave nightborne and void elves. If they really cared about "keeping faction lines unblurred", void elves would've gone to the Horde, and the nightborne to the Alliance.

[Garfurion]

Alliance High Elves are all Silvermoon exiles.

If that is the case then why were they allowed to visit Sunwell Plateau.

I would argue that is your image of the Alliance High Elves that is in conflict with the reality as presented by the game and not that it 'doesn't sound like Alliance High Elves at all' because there is an Alliance High Elf doing what you say they shouldn't be doing.

Actually, the High Elf Wayfarers seem to be new additions to the Alliance and not "pre-BFA" Alliance High Elves. Assuming they actually want to become Void Elves that is and aren't just interested in studing the Void (e.g. Shadowpriests).

As stated by Anduin when he welcomes all new Void Elves:

"Anduin Wrynn says: Welcome, friend <name>. I am King Anduin Wrynn. As a new member of the Alliance, I wished to greet you personally.
Anduin Wrynn says: The void elves may be a recent addition to our ranks, but Alleria Windrunner is one of our greatest heroes. Under her tutelage, the powers you wield will aid our cause." -- For the Alliance

Therefore we cannot assume the High Elf Wayfarers were Alliance High Elves before going to Telogrus Rift.

Moorgard was explicit and clear in what he said.

Actually he wasn't all that explicit since he didn't clearly specify which Elves might be transformed into Void Elves. As I stated in an earlier post, Danuser's statement could also mean Nightborne, Night-Elves, San'layn, Undead Elves (e.g. Sylvanas Windrunner), Felblood Elves, Withered, Wretched and any other species that can still be considered Elven.

His statement also didn't mention those Elves interested would have to go to Telogrus Rift to study the Void. Basically all the did was give a somewhat general and potential lore reason to explain seeing more than a squad of Void Elves in game.

Until we see the transformation he spoke off in game, or clearly described in a story we do not 100% know what the Silvermoon Scholars and High Elf Wayfarers are doing in Telogrus Rift. They could be studying the Void for other reasons than becoming a Void Elf. You don't have to become religious to study a religion. Blood or High Elven Shadowpriests also don't need to become Void Elves if they want to learn more about the Void from the Void Elves.

You reject this answer because it is one at odds with your professed goals. To accept the Void Elves can turn other thalassian elves into Void Elves means that yes, you can play an Alliance High Elf who skipped the Blood Elf phase and then became a Void Elf. Which means that everyone who has argued all they ever wanted was to play a high elf who remained loyal to the Alliance all these years, Void Elves are the answer.

Again, Anduin's text seems to make that impossible. You can roleplay a High Elf Wayfarer who became a Void Elf but that can't be a High Elf that was loyal to the Alliance pre-BFA.

[Traycor]

If they add High Elves, they better give them better posture.

This is the easiest way to give High Elves a new silhouette. A new posture/idle stance would be a simple add that would make them feel almost totally new.

[Fetus Rex]

This is the easiest way to give High Elves a new silhouette. A new posture/idle stance would be a simple add that would make them feel almost totally new.

I agree. Make it baby make it.

[Obelisk Kai]

Nothing but moving goalposts. You said we didn't have blood elves "making the choice", and when presented with blood elves "making the choice", then you move the goal posts, adding caveats after the fact.

Again, you have no proof that Blood Elves are becoming Alliance High Elves. I agreed the scenario is possible. I do not agree that just because it is possible it has happened. We have proof that Blood Elves are becoming Void Elves. Those Blood Elves specifically tell us why they are there, which is to master the powers of the void.

Says the guy despite the fact two races in the game literally increase their population by "replicating" a process.

The use of the word replicable was not in relation to the process, it was in relation to the idea of hairstyles and beards. Hairstyles and beards are replicable. In fact, several of the in game hairstyles and beards that were formerly race unique are now shared between several races, such as Humans and Blood Elves sharing a few. While unique hairstyles and facial hair styles can be used to increase the sense of differentiation, they are not true differentiation. Undergoing the process of becoming a Void Elf is an example of non-reversible differentiation (at least not easily).

Lore. I can play a void elf or a blood elf and pretend my character is a high elf, but that doesn't mean my character is a high elf.

To roleplay your Blood Elf as a High Elf, simply roleplay him or her as a Blood Elf, as Blood Elves are High Elves, this is the expressed lore. Your Void Elf is not a High Elf at all in the traditional sense, it is another flavour of high elf. Being another flavour of high elf is the entire point of Void Elves existing. However, your lore origin can be as an Alliance High Elf.

And high elves are the original definition of what high elves are, which is what people want.

Which is pretty much what a Blood Elf is now. The initial spin on the high elf concept embodied by Blood Elves was the mana vampirism, the need to drain mana from other beings to sate their addiction. This was resolved in the restoration of the Sunwell. Now, over a decade later, we have Blood Elves whose addiction is sated by an arcane/holy energy source, some of whom are even manifesting golden eyes as a reflection of their devotion to the holy light. In almost every respect, Blood Elves now act exactly as high elves have done historically, whether within the context of the Warcraft universe or in reflection of the wider tropes within high fantasy that High Elves are supposed to represent. There is one major difference, the allegiance of those Elves to the Orcish Horde. What 'people' (actually the small pro High Elf community) want is a Blood Elf on the Alliance.

And both times you failed. Hard. "Moving goalposts" does not "refute" anything.

What they say is irrelevant, because they're irrelevant to your first claim, that we don't have blood elves "making the choice". We do. And you, in an attempt to save face, engage in blatant shift of the goalposts.

What they say is entirely relevant, it discloses their motive in joining the Void Elves. But enough of this, agreeing your theory that Blood Elves joining the Alliance High Elves is possible seemingly isn't enough, you want me to agree it is happening despite there being no evidence for it. I am not going to do that, because that evidence does not exist, and appropriating evidence of Elves joining the Void Elves does not accomplish that.

If it was, they would've stopped asking a long time ago. Yet... every time they hear 'no', they seem to want it even harder. It's almost as if every 'no' is not a "crushing event", but almost an incentive to keep asking.

Which disproves what I said how? That Blizzard's clear desire not to do this, and the source for that is them telling you why they don't want to do it AND going to the bother of creating a variant, hasn't stopped the request is no longer surprising to me.

And that's the crux of the issue, and why so many high elf supporters don't like void elves, and why they're not a compromise.

Firstly, many of the Void Elves probably used to be. Having been told the problem with Void Elves was that it appeared all of them were former Blood Elves, confirmation that the Void Elves can turn other Elves into Void Elves means you can play as an Alliance High Elf who undergoes the transformation. This means the apparent lore objection to Void Elves was settled. However, I am unsurprised this confirmation is either ignored or rejected, as I never truly believed that too many among the pro High Elf community were motivated by lore (or more accurately, their own perception of the lore, as the lore is pretty explicit that Blood Elves are High Elves.) I have always felt that what is desired is an aesthetic and thematic duplicate of a Horde race. The continuing rejection of Void Elves, even after we have confirmation that they could be Alliance High Elves, means that the real complaints were always about the look and the theme.

Secondly, why does the pro High Elf community have a veto on the compromise? The Void Elves are a pretty close match, far closer than I would have liked the Alliance to have. Those of us on the Horde side lost unique ownership of the model, which was a big win for the pro High Elf movement. Should we have had a veto on you getting the model in the form of the Void Elves?

Thirdly, why do you get to claim it isn't a compromise? Of course it's a compromise, Ion stated it was an attempt to give the Alliance something like a Blood Elf (whom he had spent the last minute or so carefully explaining that Blood Elves are High Elves) AND he called Void Elves another flavour of High Elf and Holinka nodded along as the Lost Codex guys described Void Elves as filling the high elf niche in the Alliance. But you seem to think it isn't a compromise because you didn't consent to it or agree with it.

It's not that sort of compromise. It's not the compromise worked out between two parties. It's an enforced compromise between a game developer and it's red lines and a group of fans. And do you think Blizzard was surprised the hardcore wasn't happy with the outcome? Everything they do has detractors.

It was a compromise. You didn't like the compromise. That's tough.

Or perhaps it's a culmination of all the power she absorbed into herself. We can tell she has already been hearing whispers, long before we even met her again, when Locus Walker said: "Remember: as long as your mind is your own, you control this power."

No it isn't, read the Three Sisters comic.

Yeah, and prove that the retort was nothing but bollocks. Because they gave nightborne and void elves. If they really cared about "keeping faction lines unblurred", void elves would've gone to the Horde, and the nightborne to the Alliance.

And yet here you are still arguing for Alliance High Elves. For Void Elves to blur the faction lines, they would have to be identical to a Horde race. You are upset at Void Elves because they are not Alliance High Elves. Alliance High Elves are identical to the Blood Elves, a Horde race. Therefore there is an inherent contradiction in your logic because IF Void Elves blurred the faction lines it would be because they are identical to Blood Elves and you would be happy.

You are unhappy because Void Elves are not Alliance High Elves, or at least not anymore. Void Elves, by virtue of being different, therefore do not blur the faction lines or threaten the integrity of the Blood Elves.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the easiest way to give High Elves a new silhouette. A new posture/idle stance would be a simple add that would make them feel almost totally new.

No, it wouldn't. Posture is not enough to differentiate a race either. Posture can be a customization feature as it is for Orcs, but the new posture didn't make Orcs feel 'totally new'. As someone whose second favorite character is an Orc Death Knight, I can vouch for this.

- - - Updated - - -

If that is the case then why were they allowed to visit Sunwell Plateau.

Because post TBC relations between the Alliance and Horde had improved a little and the philosophical point of divergence had been resolved with the restoration of the Sunwell. We are still unaware if these pilgrimages are still permitted, but when Alleria requested the right she was allowed to make one, even as tensions with the Alliance were beginning to boil.

Actually, the High Elf Wayfarers seem to be new additions to the Alliance and not "pre-BFA" Alliance High Elves. Assuming they actually want to become Void Elves that is and aren't just interested in studing the Void (e.g. Shadowpriests).

As stated by Anduin when he welcomes all new Void Elves:

"Anduin Wrynn says: Welcome, friend <name>. I am King Anduin Wrynn. As a new member of the Alliance, I wished to greet you personally.
Anduin Wrynn says: The void elves may be a recent addition to our ranks, but Alleria Windrunner is one of our greatest heroes. Under her tutelage, the powers you wield will aid our cause." -- For the Alliance

Therefore we cannot assume the High Elf Wayfarers were Alliance High Elves before going to Telogrus Rift.

Really? The High Elf Wayfarers are new additions to the Alliance? One of the constants we have from Blizzard regarding Alliance High Elves is how their numbers are really, REALLY low. New Alliance High Elves are unlikely to come out of the woodwork at this point.

As for Anduin's text, what of it? The Void Elves ARE a recent addition their ranks, in the same way the Kul Tirans are a recent addition to their ranks. A new group within the Alliance.
As for being 'a new member of the Alliance', also easily enough explained. Most 'Alliance High Elves' are actually technically neutral because they live in Dalaran. Overtly Alliance sympathetic, sure, hence the adjective Alliance High Elf, but they are neutral. Dalaran is neutral. The High Elf wayfarers talk about being banished for studying void magics as well, yet they can't possible be banished from Silvermoon as they've already been kicked out of there. The only other place they can be banished from is Dalaran. Look at poor Levia Laurence after all, banned from the city for her experiments with shadow magic.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Levia_Laurence

And, as I recall, it is the Silver Covenant Elves that people wish to play. Who live in Dalaran.

Which is the complex explanation.

If you want a simpler one, Anduin is having his ambassador hand out a mass produced letter that says the same thing to each individual and that because most Void Elves ARE former Blood Elves (unsurprising giving the vast population disparity) who have newly joined the Alliance, the letter primarily references their circumstances. In fact, if you want proof of this later theory, why not make two different Void Elves and see if the letter Moorgard hands you is identical?

Actually he wasn't all that explicit since he didn't clearly specify which Elves might be transformed into Void Elves. As I stated in an earlier post, Danuser's statement could also mean Nightborne, Night-Elves, San'layn, Undead Elves (e.g. Sylvanas Windrunner), Felblood Elves, Withered, Wretched and any other species that can still be considered Elven.

Considering they are all former high elves in game, whether Blood Elves or Alliance High Elves, this seems like an unnecessary complication. Sure, it's possible, in the same way Turalyon is a Lightforged Human, but I would argue that as every single Void Elf so far is a thalassian elf, that is what Moorgard meant.

His statement also didn't mention those Elves interested would have to go to Telogrus Rift to study the Void. Basically all the did was give a somewhat general and potential lore reason to explain seeing more than a squad of Void Elves in game.

Given the general aversion to shadow magic, it seems obvious they are going to Telogrus to study the void in peace. And there is no 'potential' about it, he's the writer. If he says Void Elves are turning other Elves into Void Elves, then that is what is happening.

Until we see the transformation he spoke off in game, or clearly described in a story we do not 100% know what the Silvermoon Scholars and High Elf Wayfarers are doing in Telogrus Rift. They could be studying the Void for other reasons than becoming a Void Elf. You don't have to become religious to study a religion. Blood or High Elven Shadowpriests also don't need to become Void Elves if they want to learn more about the Void from the Void Elves.

I would argue the opposite, between what we see in game and what he said in the interview, the expressed intent is that Void Elves can convert other Elves. Even you note the discrepancy in that he was trying to 'explain seeing more than a squad of Void Elves in game'.

I would also question the motive in trying to prove that Void Elves in fact CANNOT convert other Elves into Void Elves. Is it not driven by a desire to prove that not only are Void Elves doomed to die out, but that not a single Alliance High Elf can be among their numbers and so it is impossible to roleplay as a Void Elf who used to be an Alliance High Elf, and therefore Blizzard needs to add them?

This particular question is tainted by the ulterior motives of those debating it. Still, leaving that aside, I think Moorgard's comments are very clear.

[Ielenia]

Again, you have no proof that Blood Elves are becoming Alliance High Elves. I agreed the scenario is possible. I do not agree that just because it is possible it has happened.

Except I never claimed that, so I don't know why you felt the need to include that.

We have proof that Blood Elves are becoming Void Elves. Those Blood Elves specifically tell us why they are there, which is to master the powers of the void.

Except why they're here is irrelevant. The only relevant part is that they're "making the choice", i.e., leaving Silvermoon and the Horde to join the Alliance.

The use of the word replicable was not in relation to the process, it was in relation to the idea of hairstyles and beards. Hairstyles and beards are replicable. In fact, several of the in game hairstyles and beards that were formerly race unique are now shared between several races, such as Humans and Blood Elves sharing a few. While unique hairstyles and facial hair styles can be used to increase the sense of differentiation, they are not true differentiation. Undergoing the process of becoming a Void Elf is an example of non-reversible differentiation (at least not easily).

Then they could give HEs "replicable" features that the blood elves would not want to replicate. Add a bit of lore behind those features, like Alleria's facial markings. That is unique to her, for example. I don't think I've seen another blood elf or high elf with those. It's something the high elves could adopt, but the blood elves might not, considering they represent a now enemy of the Horde.

Blood Elves are High Elves

But not high elves are blood elves. I hoped you'd learn this important fact after so long...

Which is pretty much what a Blood Elf is now.

A Blood Elf is the redefinition of what a High Elf is.

You're contradicting yourself now. They cannot be both the "original definition" and the "redefinition".

What they say is entirely relevant, it discloses their motive in joining the Void Elves.

It's irrelevant because the question was never why they were doing it. The question is: "Are they doing it?" and the answer is "yes".

Which disproves what I said how? That Blizzard's clear desire not to do this,

And Blizzard's desire was clear in not allowing alts of the opposite faction in the same PvP server. Blizzard's desire was also clear in not bringing demon hunters as a playable class. Blizzard's desire was very clear in not wanting to do Classic servers.

Yet here we are...

It was a compromise.

It wasn't.

You didn't like the compromise.

Because it wasn't a well-thought out attempt. Or even a compromise. I have yet to read any Blizzard official statement saying those were their attempt to give the high elf community the high elves they've been asking for the longest time

No it isn't, read the Three Sisters comic.

How does that disprove anything, considering the comic happens after Legion?

And yet here you are still arguing for Alliance High Elves.

I fail to see the relevance since I'm not one that says "the faction divide will be blurred" while ignoring the fact it's already been "blurred". Twice.

[Traycor]

No, it wouldn't. Posture is not enough...

Yes it would. It changes the silhouette when the char is fully armored. It's the #1 way to know what race you're looking at fully geared.

Secondly, you like to make false equivalencies. One glance at the OP shows that I'm not suggesting only changing the posture and nothing else. But you already knew that. It seems like you feel compelled to "refute" any and all points on a matter of principle, even if those points have merit.

[Alanar]

This is the easiest way to give High Elves a new silhouette. A new posture/idle stance would be a simple add that would make them feel almost totally new.

They should have done this with void elves tbh.. they already look way to.much like blood elves to begin with. Their posture has become iconic to the blood elf race.. when I see one from afar I barely will notice the differences. Does a void elf wear a helmet you have no idea.

[Traycor]

Nope.

Alliance gets High Elves and Horde gets San'layn.

And i get two new alts (More like race changes, probably into a High Elf Mage and a San'layn Warlock)

PS: I'm also for Horde getting Ogres as well. So many people have been for asking them.

I'm on board with this as well, but it seems that to add San'layn you'd need to be adding Dark Rangers into the mix as well.

[Maxilian]

If that is the case then why were they allowed to visit Sunwell Plateau.

Mostly to evade conflict and is a way to thank the Draneai that helped liberate the Sunwell (allowing their allies to go in)

[Garfurion]

Really? The High Elf Wayfarers are new additions to the Alliance? One of the constants we have from Blizzard regarding Alliance High Elves is how their numbers are really, REALLY low. New Alliance High Elves are unlikely to come out of the woodwork at this point.

Really ? Blizzard has been introducing new Alliance High Elves into the game almost every expansion, including BFA.

As for Anduin's text, what of it?

It is officially part of the lore.

The Void Elves ARE a recent addition their ranks, in the same way the Kul Tirans are a recent addition to their ranks. A new group within the Alliance.

The letter doesn't address a group but an individual.

As for being 'a new member of the Alliance', also easily enough explained. Most 'Alliance High Elves' are actually technically neutral because they live in Dalaran.

Where is it written or said most Alliance High Elves live in Dalaran ?

Where does it say an Alliance member cannot live in Dalaran ?

The High Elf wayfarers talk about being banished for studying void magics as well, yet they can't possible be banished from Silvermoon as they've already been kicked out of there.

You are incorrect. They don't talk about being banished for studying void magics. They say:

"We need no longer fear exile for the pursuit of knowledge." -- source

Which means they were not exiled for the pursuit of knowledge because if they were they wouldn't fear it.

Even if they were banished, they could have been exiled from Quel'Thalas before the destruction of the Sunwell.

The only other place they can be banished from is Dalaran.

Any proof there are only 2 places in the world you can be banished from as a High Elf ?

If you want a simpler one, Anduin is having his ambassador hand out a mass produced letter that says the same thing to each individual and that because most Void Elves ARE former Blood Elves (unsurprising giving the vast population disparity) who have newly joined the Alliance, the letter primarily references their circumstances.

The letter is not mass produced. It has the name of the new member of the Alliance in it as well as Anduin writing he wished to greet the new member of the Alliance personally.

"Anduin Wrynn says: Welcome, friend <name>. I am King Anduin Wrynn. As a new member of the Alliance, I wished to greet you personally."

Anduin words are officially part of the lore and unless we have any lore contradicting with the text we should err on the side of caution and take it literal.

I would also question the motive in trying to prove that Void Elves in fact CANNOT convert other Elves into Void Elves.

I never wrote that. You are strawmanning.