Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Strippling]

You don't want High Elves on the Alliance. Other people do. And people have come with good arguments for why they think Alliance should have a High Elf race. Factually correct statements. If that's the only thing that matters.

Unfortunately, these "good" arguments come at the expense of faction identity, which Blizzard have iterated on several occasions recently that the faction divide is integral to WoW. Factually, yes there are some high elfs aligned with the Alliance. Lore wise, they are so few in number (confirmed on several occasions by devs, despite what you may think in game). Gameplay wise, they are the same as blood elfs in nearly every aspect, and as such their inclusion as an AR would undermine the faction barrier.

"Good" arguments don't matter if they ultimately undermine core features of the game. And on top of that, Blizzard has very clearly stated that blood elfs are the continuation of the high elven story. Adding high elfs to the Alliance would undermine this core feature of the Blood Elfs, WHO ARE the main high elven society in WoW today. However, some folks don't seem to care about this, as long as they can have their light skinned elf fantasy on the Alliance.

Lastly, Ion was not factually wrong. DK blood elf = blue eyed elf on the horde

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It's strange to see this question posed to the High Elf topic only when you could go into every AR thread and ask such a question.

Let's go to the Ogre request thread and ask what AR what would the Alliance get? No one gives a shit, they're already asking for the races they want in their own separate topics.

If you're not going into all other AR thread putting this expectation on them as well, don't be trying to put that expectation on the High Elf topic.

The difference is the other AR requests don't cross faction boundaries like high elfs do. So your argument is invalid.

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Pretty sure it has if Afrasiabi is saying it's possible for Void Elves to get some High Elf skins to get that "High Elf feeling".

It's possible for void elfs to never get any high elven customization either. You really are clinging on to Afrasiabi's comments for dear life. It's possible for high elfs to defect from the Alliance. It's possible for high elfs to be killed off. It's possible that we may never see another high elf NPC again. ANything is possible, like Alex said. You get my drift..

[Doffen]

Lastly, Ion was not factually wrong. DK blood elf = blue eyed elf on the horde

Like I said

If you don't count Dks. But that would be cheating.

It does look good though, my Blood Elf DK is probably one of my favorites when it comes to the look/transmog. And don't forget, Void Elves also got blue eyes. And they are also fair skinned. Fair blue skinned

[Ielenia]

Unfortunately, these "good" arguments come at the expense of faction identity, which Blizzard have iterated on several occasions recently that the faction divide is integral to WoW.

And this so-called "faction identity", that Blizzard claims is "integral to WoW", had been basically rendered moot with the addition of nightborne and void elves, so that excuse doesn't fly, anymore.

[Strippling]

And this so-called "faction identity", that Blizzard claims is "integral to WoW", had been basically rendered moot with the addition of nightborne and void elves, so that excuse doesn't fly, anymore.

You don't get to choose whether Blizzards "excuses" fly or not. It's their game, and they have explicitly stated that high elfs would blur factions lines. You thinking otherwise comes across as "arrogant", a word you've been hypocritically throwing at Obelisk.

Nighborne / void elfs rendering the faction divide argument moot is your opinion, nothing more.

[Ielenia]

You don't get to choose whether Blizzards "excuses" fly or not. It's their game, and they have explicitly stated that high elfs would blur factions lines. You thinking otherwise comes across as "arrogant", a word you've been hypocritically throwing at Obelisk.

It's their game and they can do whatever they want, yes. But that doesn't make their excuses any less BS.

Nighborne / void elfs rendering the faction divide argument moot is your opinion, nothing more.

More like a fact. Nightborne and void elves gave the Horde and Alliance, respectively, the model, silhouette and animations of the night elves and blood elves. To say those don't "blur the faction identity" is like saying "I don't think it's raining" just because you are not wet, despite the heavy thunderstorm pouring outside your home.

[DeicideUH]

More like a fact. Nightborne and void elves gave the Horde and Alliance, respectively, the model, silhouette and animations of the night elves and blood elves. To say those don't "blur the faction identity" is like saying "I don't think it's raining" just because you are not wet, despite the heavy thunderstorm pouring outside your home.

More than just model and animations (thought I argue about silhouette in nightborne case, since there was some effort to make it different from night elves'), even lore is blurred somewhat. Nightborne gave the ancient night elf empire story to the Horde. Talyssra is in Nazjatar doing stuff that, one expansion ago, only a night elf could do. The void elves, in their turn, were blood elves just yesterday. They literally have more blood elf lore than high elves do, as the high elf schism happened way earlier.

In the end, all "reasons" against are not really reasons. It's not about lore, faction identity or whatever, it boils down to one thing: does Blizzard want to do it? If yes, they'd do it. If no, it's the fans' right to ask it to reconsider. It's not like Blizzard hasn't changed its mind several times on several other issues over the years.

[Monster Hunter]

More than just model and animations (thought I argue about silhouette in nightborne case, since there was some effort to make it different from night elves'), even lore is blurred somewhat. Nightborne gave the ancient night elf empire story to the Horde. Talyssra is in Nazjatar doing stuff that, one expansion ago, only a night elf could do. The void elves, in their turn, were blood elves just yesterday. They literally have more blood elf lore than high elves do, as the high elf schism happened way earlier.

In the end, all "reasons" against are not really reasons. It's not about lore, faction identity or whatever, it boils down to one thing: does Blizzard want to do it? If yes, they'd do it. If no, it's the fans' right to ask to reconsider. It's not like Blizzard hasn't changed its mind several times on several other issues over the years.

If they were gonna do it, they would have done it instead of void elves with alleria as leader, as of now I can't see it ever happening because of void elves and the the already fairly high number of elf options, taking a look out side this thread the "no more damnd elves" voice is fairly strong when ever the idea of another wave of allied races comes up, the wind seems to be going towards vulpera and mechagnomes if we get anything new which makes sense 2 new elf races is likly deemed enough for now.

[Goldielocks]

More like a fact. Nightborne and void elves gave the Horde and Alliance, respectively, the model, silhouette and animations of the night elves and blood elves. To say those don't "blur the faction identity" is like saying "I don't think it's raining" just because you are not wet, despite the heavy thunderstorm pouring outside your home.

This argument makes no sense at all. If Blizzard really didn't care about identity like you claim then Void Elves wouldn't exist. They would have straight given the Alliance High Elves. Any argument for lore limitation is moot because the reasoning sucked during TBC too.

[Ielenia]

More than just model and animations (thought I argue about silhouette in nightborne case, since there was some effort to make it different from night elves'), even lore is blurred somewhat. Nightborne gave the ancient night elf empire story to the Horde. Talyssra is in Nazjatar doing stuff that, one expansion ago, only a night elf could do. The void elves, in their turn, were blood elves just yesterday. They literally have more blood elf lore than high elves do, as the high elf schism happened way earlier.

In the end, all "reasons" against are not really reasons. It's not about lore, faction identity or whatever, it boils down to one thing: does Blizzard want to do it? If yes, they'd do it. If no, it's the fans' right to ask it to reconsider. It's not like Blizzard hasn't changed its mind several times on several other issues over the years.

There are some differences in silhouette between nightborne and night elves, true, but they're so minimal you'll know if the other player is Horde or Alliance 99% because of the color of their name, outline, or health bar, before you even notice the physical differences between the two.

As for the rest of your post, yes, I agree 100%.

[Ielenia]

This argument makes no sense at all. If Blizzard really didn't care about identity like you claim then Void Elves wouldn't exist. They would have straight given the Alliance High Elves. Any argument for lore limitation is moot because the reasoning sucked during TBC too.

It's the other way around. If "faction identity" is so paramount to Blizzard, void elves would'be been given to the Horde, and the nightborne to the Alliance, to keep the night elf lore, model and animations in the Alliance, and the blood elf lore, model and animations in the Horde.

But they didn't do that. They did the opposite. The color of a model's skin is irrelevant when 90% of the armor in the game covers your entire body. That's not even counting those who use model-swap toys/spells like the Coin of Many Faces.

Nine times out or ten, you are not distinguishing a blood elf from a void elf, and a nightborne from a night elf, through the physical differences between each before the color of their outline, name or health bar clue you in on which faction they belong to, and therefore which race they are.

[Goldielocks]

It's the other way around. If "faction identity" is so paramount to Blizzard, void elves would'be been given to the Horde, and the nightborne to the Alliance, to keep the night elf lore, model and animations in the Alliance, and the blood elf lore, model and animations in the Horde.

But they didn't do that. They did the opposite. The color of a model's skin is irrelevant when 90% of the armor in the game covers your entire body.

Nine times out or ten, you are not distinguishing a blood elf from a void elf, and a nightborne from a night elf, through the physical differences between each before the color of their outline, name or health bar clue you in on which faction they belong to, and therefore which race they are.

Why are you putting so much stock in models? They were a compromise to the playerbase. Nothing more. The entire existence of Void Elves is a compromise. Obviously the Horde would get something in return. That also doesn't mean putting two races that look 99% the same on opposite factions is the same concept. There's a reason why Void Elves look the way they do, as does the Nightborne. They look different enough. There's a limit to how far this can go.

It's an argument I've seen in this thread before. Just change how High Elves look. Change their model, or change something that creates a distinctive look from Blood Elves while keeping the core identity. It won't conflict with Void Elves because they were originally Blood Elves. I've even seen half-elves suggested.

[Ielenia]

Why are you putting so much stock in models? They were a compromise to the playerbase. Nothing more.

Because the model, as well the lore, are "integral parts" of the "faction identity". And nightborne and void elves break both of those so-called "integral parts".

The entire existence of Void Elves is a compromise.

It's not. "High elves" never passed through the developers' minds when designing the void elves, and if did, it was promptly discarded without consideration, since they made the entire concept of void elves be based around blood elves.

Obviously the Horde would get something in return. That also doesn't mean putting two races that look 99% the same on opposite factions is the same concept.

And yet nightborne and void elves are things that exist.

[DeicideUH]

If they were gonna do it

We are discussing this because they didn't want to do it. And obviously they weren't planning to do it.

If they were gonna do it, we wouldn't need to ask. We just would need to wait.

Blizzard is not obligated to please us, but we are not obligated to stay quiet either.

What we do is no different from people criticizing the removal of flight or azerite armor, except that a race affects the game way less than such big gameplay issues, so it's kinda amazing how many people get butthurt over this request.

There are some differences in silhouette between nightborne and night elves, true, but they're so minimal you'll know if the other player is Horde or Alliance 99% because of the color of their name, outline, or health bar, before you even notice the physical differences between the two.

I'm not saying they are totally unique, but nightborne/night elf are just different enough for you to see they are both very similar and yet not the same thing.
(At least when they are idle).

And what they did to nightborne (slight changes and new idle animations) could easily also be done to high elves just as well.

But yeah, the green/red (or blue/orange) names above the character are what tips most people on what they are. I know someone is Alliance/Horde even before I can identify its silhouette.

[Goldielocks]

Because the model, as well the lore, are "integral parts" of the "faction identity". And nightborne and void elves break both of those so-called "integral parts".

It's not. We're getting more and more model changes. Upright orcs was the beginning and who knows where that will go.

It's not. "High elves" never passed through the developers' minds when designing the void elves, and if did, it was promptly discarded without consideration, since they made the entire concept of void elves be based around blood elves.

Yeah you're gunna have to explain how you came to that conclusion. It's far easier to assume the compromise because Ion keeps saying no. He knows the demand for the race, yet the Alliance gets that very model but conveniently also gets a skinned version with really shitty lore instead.

And yet nightborne and void elves are things that exist.

Gunna have to disagree with ya there lmao

Easiest example is the abundant of pro helfers (even in this thread) who would actually like Void Elves if the VE skin was paler to look more like High Elves.

[FlubberPuddy]

That is not an Alliance High Elf. That is a Void Elf, and a confused Void Elf at that. And Afrasiabi merely stated it was possible, not that they were open to the idea, or that they promised doing it.

I would assume that if Bronzebeard Dwarves were given the option to sport Wildhammer tattoos, you wouldn't go around saying Wildhammers were playable after all.

At minimum, Alex saying it's possible and his emphasis of "don't give up hope" is a call to the High Elf request and an acknowledgement that Void Elves as they are do not offer the "High Elf feeling". He certainly wouldn't be emphasizing "don't give up hope" to the status-quo of no playable High Elves.

And the Wildhammer assumption hasn't been ever brought up by Blizzard when Wildhammer are mentioned so I'm not sure how likely that sort of assumption would pan out. Clearly having the same racials and heritage armor and mount as Bronzebeards wouldn't make any sense at all which is probably why they haven't suggested it or hinted at it when bringing up Wildhammer Dwarves.

But if that's how Blizzard wants to handle it then that's how they want to handle it. We can only keep requesting what we wish for until there comes a definite, explicit, "no". Which hasn't been the case for the High Elf request.

Yes, you have always said that. You say that because you refuse to accept that one of the reasons for creating Void Elves in the first place was to replace Alliance High Elves. Even Afrasiabi was visibly nodding as the Lost Codex guys described Void Elves as filling that High Elf niche because that is part of what they are meant to do, give a kind of Blood Elf, a unique flavour of High Elf, to the Alliance that does not undermine the identity of the Blood Elves or the integrity of the Horde. If they ever intended to add Alliance High Elves they would have never created Void Elves. And Void Elves themselves make Alliance High Elves unlikely, as they would undermine the Void Elf niche of the thalassian elves of the Alliance.

You keep stating something Blizzard themselves have never said, "one of the reasons for creating Void Elves in the first place was to replace Alliance High Elves". Every single time Void Elves are brought up not in relation to High Elf comparison it's touted as "something new and cool" or "something we didn't want players to be familiar with before" both those kinds of statements from various Blizzard employees depict that Void Elves are not a replacement to High Elves, which would be something players are both familiar with and also "not new" as very often we have posters saying (you included) "why would they waste a slot on an already existing race" and "high elves are just blood elves with blue eyes" etc etc.

Can you prove what Afrasiabi is nodding to? He nods to the interviewer who states, "personally I feel like Void Elves fill the High Elf niche myself" that can be an acknowledgement toward the interviewer's personal opinion - not a specific acknowledgement of Void Elves fulfilling that niche in general. As I said before, his response wouldn't be an emphasis on "don't give up hope" if he felt that Void Elves are the High Elf replacement. This reminds of how Strippling can predict that Ion liking a tweet hoping that one day High Elves become playable (post his April QA answer) was merely because of the "keep up the good work" portion at the end of the tweet. How can one determine what portion of a nod or liked tweet goes to which portion? Tons of people nod their heads to acknowledge someone else's opinion, or agree, sure. But of the two, judging from Afrasiabi's response I'd say it's clear that it wasn't "Void Elves are the High Elf replacement" since the question was specifically asking if they could get customization to get that "High Elf feeling".

Even Ion himself says "Void Elves were to give something like a Blood Elf" he acknowledges "Blood Elves kinda are High Elves" then begins to summarize the differences between them. The rest of his response focuses on bringing up Void Elves as a unique take on Blood Elves, not High Elves. He then goes so far as to say that if _insert description of a High Elf_ is what you'd like to play then "the Horde is waiting for you". Again, another example of a Blizzard employee showing that Void Elves are not the High Elf replacement.

So we have multiple times developers, in regards to Void Elves, stating they are "something new and cool" (Shani Edwards), "something players aren't familiar with" (Steve Danuser), "to give something like a Blood Elf" (Ion Hazzikostas) and you believe one of the reasons Void Elves were created was to replace High Elves? If that's something you'd like to continue to believe you may feel free to do so. But developer commentary has yet to support that line of belief.

And when BFA ends they have also been clear that they do not want to continue introducing Allied races at the same cadence as they have previously, that they will in fact get much, much rarer. The chances of Blizzard therefore essentially wasting the opportunity to add something new to the Alliance post BFA, something which may come along every two or four years rather than every six months as it is right now, on an already existing race strikes me as absurd.

Alliance High Elves were rejected for a reason. And the desire for them was not unknown, they knew and they still created Void Elves instead.
The importance of the faction wall is not BFA specific. The moment 9.0 goes live is not the moment Blizzard decides to bastardise and homogenise the factions.

Yes I understand the cadence will slow down. My prediction comes from my earlier post response to someone else that Elves were part of the first package of AR in this "first round" of AR. Which means once BFA is over and the remaining AR are released, it would in essence "reset" and Elves for Alliance would be one of the first in line to come again. Regardless of the slowed down cadence, this makes them (in a sense) "first in line" again. And by "them" I merely mean an Elf race on Alliance.

You assert that because the cadence will slow that Blizzard will prefer to add something new, yet we have commentary by Ion Hazzikostas himself that they "don't want to lose a sense of silhouettes", "lose a sense of identity". This goes against your assertion that they're always going to create new races. It also means that now the Thalassian silhouette is part of the Alliance in a playable form, when it's always been an unplayable silhouette. This doesn't "bastardize and homogenize the factions" at all. Since it is now canon, given by Blizzard.

What do we know in terms of future races though? That Wildhammer were acknowledged as a possibility in the future by John Hight and also acknowledged to be a known request by Jeremy Feasel which makes the developers go, "these ideas ultimately result in us having very nerdy conversations on the whiteboard talking about 'oh this is a great idea!'".

So if Wildhammer are on the board for possible implementation in the future, these are other pieces of developer commentary that goes against your assertion that only new races are going to be implemented due to the slower cadence of Allied Races.

Also, you and some others may personally see it as a "wasted opportunity" but this line of thought mainly stems from the recent addition of Void Elves. I would like to see what happens post-BFA, when Void Elves aren't fresh, and Blizzard's line of thought regarding the opportunity to add the most requested race on Alliance and in the game: High Elves. I would like to see then whether they themselves will consider it, "a wasted opportunity".

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It's not. We're getting more and more model changes. Upright orcs was the beginning and who knows where that will go.

Upright Orcs happened specifically because they wanted Mag'har to be upright Orcs.

And the same with the Mag’har Orcs?

Yeah, just people wanting more variety in orcs, for sure. But I honestly can’t remember the genesis of the decision to include all the orc tribes. We knew that we wanted to do more of an upright orc, but at the end of the day, some of the individual personality traits of the various orc clans in Warlords are not that distinguishable when you’re armoured up – especially when you have the new armour that you get in a new expansion – so we arrived at the idea of making an amalgam of all these different clans.

The reason it got ported to existing Orcs is because they share the same rig, and when Blizzard works on one rig, they can change the other identical one. It's what they've said in regards to customizations overall, that when they decide to add new customization they'd rather do it based on their pipeline because trying to do it for every single race to make sure each stay equal would cause them to make the additions much slower and less drastic.

This is proven by how during the time Void Elves were being developed, Blizzard fixed the bow animation and lips for Blood Elves as well as the Void Elves. Again, because the rigs are exactly the same.

It isn't meant to mean "more races having different posture options are incoming" as the silhouette of a race is as important to its identity as its model in terms of how Blizzard does racial customization. This is why they've ruled out things like height/weight sliders.

An Orc that is upright, still carries the silhouette of an Orc. One could make the argument that making Darkspear upright steps on Zandalari being upright (that is part of what makes Zandalari unique), or upright Undead would just appear almost human or Nathanos like, when Nathanos is clearly a special case.

[Goldielocks]

Upright Orcs happened specifically because they wanted Mag'har to be upright Orcs.



The reason it got ported to existing Orcs is because they share the same rig, and when Blizzard works on one rig, they can change the other identical one. It's what they've said in regards to customizations overall, that when they decide to add new customization they'd rather do it based on their pipeline because trying to do it for every single race to make sure each stay equal would cause them to make the additions much slower and less drastic.

This is proven by how during the time Void Elves were being developed, Blizzard fixed the bow animation and lips for Blood Elves as well as the Void Elves. Again, because the rigs are exactly the same.

It isn't meant to mean "more races having different posture options are incoming" as the silhouette of a race is as important to its identity as its model in terms of how Blizzard does racial customization. This is why they've ruled out things like height/weight sliders.

An Orc that is upright, still carries the silhouette of an Orc. One could make the argument that making Darkspear upright steps on Zandalari being upright (that is part of what makes Zandalari unique), or upright Undead would just appear almost human or Nathanos like, when Nathanos is clearly a special case.

That doesn't disprove my point though. Regular orcs had no real reason to be given upright models. Their allied race did. Blizzard can make the differences if they really wanted to. They just introduced a tech that fixed Tauren and Gnomes having the wrong mount sizes for pretty much the same reason. The tech was the same across the board and they couldn't be bothered to fix. Now they have.

It means models have no real value to Blizzard in regards to race identity and it can't be used in an argument.

[FlubberPuddy]

That doesn't disprove my point though. Regular orcs had no real reason to be given upright models. Their allied race did. Blizzard can make the differences if they really wanted to. They just introduced a tech that fixed Tauren and Gnomes having the wrong mount sizes for pretty much the same reason. The tech was the same across the board and they couldn't be bothered to fix. Now they have.

It means models have no real value to Blizzard in regards to race identity and it can't be used in an argument.

The bold is interesting to say because when it's said from the context of adding High Elves it's typically seen as a weak comment, since literally Blizzard can do anything since its their game if they really wanted to.

And yeah it does disprove your point because it's not a sign that it's something coming to all races. If for instance it were coming to Trolls (because many people wanted it for Darkspear as well).

Here just found a MMO-C post that confirms it in a QA because I cba to find the QA, I figured this answered this before.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Upright-Option

So confirmed that what happened to Orcs isn't something that's going to be on option for the others. Players should stop trying to headcanon things never expressed by Blizzard unless there's a clear, unambiguous pattern to what they do or say.

[Goldielocks]

The bold is interesting to say because when it's said from the context of adding High Elves it's typically seen as a weak comment, since literally Blizzard can do anything since its their game if they really wanted to.

And yeah it does disprove your point because it's not a sign that it's something coming to all races. If for instance it were coming to Trolls (because many people wanted it for Darkspear as well).

Here just found a MMO-C post that confirms it in a QA because I cba to find the QA, I figured this answered this before.

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Upright-Option

So confirmed that what happened to Orcs isn't something that's going to be on option for the others. Players should stop trying to headcanon things never expressed by Blizzard unless there's a clear, unambiguous pattern to what they do or say.

I don't understand how you can use this argument in full conscience when these same people have said no High Elves over and over.

Are these people ones to change their minds or not?

[Ielenia]

It's not. We're getting more and more model changes. Upright orcs was the beginning and who knows where that will go.

Then, do tell, what is this "faction identity" that is not lore or models?

Yeah you're gunna have to explain how you came to that conclusion.

I think it's pretty self-explanatory. If "void elves" are supposed to be a compromise to "Alliance high elves"... why did Blizzard make them come from blood elves and not the high elves the community has been asking since vanilla WoW?

Gunna have to disagree with ya there lmao

Easiest example is the abundant of pro helfers (even in this thread) who would actually like Void Elves if the VE skin was paler to look more like High Elves.

And yet what you just said make absolutely no sense to the argument you quoted. Void elves are "99% the same" as blood elves, all things considered. Same with nightborne.

[FlubberPuddy]

I don't understand how you can use this argument in full conscience when these same people have said no High Elves over and over.

Are these people ones to change their minds or not?

Because what you and a lot of others don't understand is that "No High Elves" has never ever been said by Blizzard in any explicit form ever.

Yet for things such as the topic we're talking about more posture changes for instance, Blizzard explicitly states it being ruled out.