Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Ielenia]

To join the Void Elves to wield void magic, not out of love of the Alliance.

Nothing but moving goalposts. You said we didn't have blood elves "making the choice", and when presented with blood elves "making the choice", then you move the goal posts, adding caveats after the fact.

Hairstyles? Beards? That's not differentiation at all, that could easily be copied. Real differentiation is something not replicable or reversible. Void Elf skin tones and their tentacles and the real differentiation between the two groups, not the goatees.

Says the guy despite the fact two races in the game literally increase their population by "replicating" a process.

If you accept that Void Elves can convert other Elves, and I believe you do, then you can. So what is stopping you?

Lore. I can play a void elf or a blood elf and pretend my character is a high elf, but that doesn't mean my character is a high elf.

A Blood Elf is the redefinition of what a High Elf is.

And high elves are the original definition of what high elves are, which is what people want.

This is an easily refuted point, I have done so twice in this thread already.

And both times you failed. Hard. "Moving goalposts" does not "refute" anything.

These individuals TELL you why they are studying the void.

What they say is irrelevant, because they're irrelevant to your first claim, that we don't have blood elves "making the choice". We do. And you, in an attempt to save face, engage in blatant shift of the goalposts.

Them saying no isn't a reason to stop asking, but each no (or even no comment on the topic at a major event) is always a crushing event for pro High Elfers.

If it was, they would've stopped asking a long time ago. Yet... every time they hear 'no', they seem to want it even harder. It's almost as if every 'no' is not a "crushing event", but almost an incentive to keep asking.

Void Elves are not Alliance High Elves.

And that's the crux of the issue, and why so many high elf supporters don't like void elves, and why they're not a compromise.

Talk to her on the Vindicaar and ask her about what happened, she will happily fill you in.

The fact that she never demonstrated the ability prior to that moment, or that it was felt the moment deserved a cinematic, and that the event leading up to the cinematic was her absorbing a powerful void being, demonstrates that this was indeed the first time it occurred.

Or perhaps it's a culmination of all the power she absorbed into herself. We can tell she has already been hearing whispers, long before we even met her again, when Locus Walker said: "Remember: as long as your mind is your own, you control this power."

At this point I am sure you are familiar with the usual retort that Pandaren neutrality was a mistake that Blizzard regretted. And the differences between Void Elves/Nightborne and Blood Elves/Night Elves could be seen as taking the feedback from Pandaren to heart, in that they provided variants of each race to the other faction rather than complete duplicates.

Yeah, and prove that the retort was nothing but bollocks. Because they gave nightborne and void elves. If they really cared about "keeping faction lines unblurred", void elves would've gone to the Horde, and the nightborne to the Alliance.

[Garfurion]

Alliance High Elves are all Silvermoon exiles.

If that is the case then why were they allowed to visit Sunwell Plateau.

I would argue that is your image of the Alliance High Elves that is in conflict with the reality as presented by the game and not that it 'doesn't sound like Alliance High Elves at all' because there is an Alliance High Elf doing what you say they shouldn't be doing.

Actually, the High Elf Wayfarers seem to be new additions to the Alliance and not "pre-BFA" Alliance High Elves. Assuming they actually want to become Void Elves that is and aren't just interested in studing the Void (e.g. Shadowpriests).

As stated by Anduin when he welcomes all new Void Elves:

"Anduin Wrynn says: Welcome, friend <name>. I am King Anduin Wrynn. As a new member of the Alliance, I wished to greet you personally.
Anduin Wrynn says: The void elves may be a recent addition to our ranks, but Alleria Windrunner is one of our greatest heroes. Under her tutelage, the powers you wield will aid our cause." -- For the Alliance

Therefore we cannot assume the High Elf Wayfarers were Alliance High Elves before going to Telogrus Rift.

Moorgard was explicit and clear in what he said.

Actually he wasn't all that explicit since he didn't clearly specify which Elves might be transformed into Void Elves. As I stated in an earlier post, Danuser's statement could also mean Nightborne, Night-Elves, San'layn, Undead Elves (e.g. Sylvanas Windrunner), Felblood Elves, Withered, Wretched and any other species that can still be considered Elven.

His statement also didn't mention those Elves interested would have to go to Telogrus Rift to study the Void. Basically all the did was give a somewhat general and potential lore reason to explain seeing more than a squad of Void Elves in game.

Until we see the transformation he spoke off in game, or clearly described in a story we do not 100% know what the Silvermoon Scholars and High Elf Wayfarers are doing in Telogrus Rift. They could be studying the Void for other reasons than becoming a Void Elf. You don't have to become religious to study a religion. Blood or High Elven Shadowpriests also don't need to become Void Elves if they want to learn more about the Void from the Void Elves.

You reject this answer because it is one at odds with your professed goals. To accept the Void Elves can turn other thalassian elves into Void Elves means that yes, you can play an Alliance High Elf who skipped the Blood Elf phase and then became a Void Elf. Which means that everyone who has argued all they ever wanted was to play a high elf who remained loyal to the Alliance all these years, Void Elves are the answer.

Again, Anduin's text seems to make that impossible. You can roleplay a High Elf Wayfarer who became a Void Elf but that can't be a High Elf that was loyal to the Alliance pre-BFA.

[Traycor]

If they add High Elves, they better give them better posture.

This is the easiest way to give High Elves a new silhouette. A new posture/idle stance would be a simple add that would make them feel almost totally new.

[Fetus Rex]

This is the easiest way to give High Elves a new silhouette. A new posture/idle stance would be a simple add that would make them feel almost totally new.

I agree. Make it baby make it.

[Obelisk Kai]

Nothing but moving goalposts. You said we didn't have blood elves "making the choice", and when presented with blood elves "making the choice", then you move the goal posts, adding caveats after the fact.

Again, you have no proof that Blood Elves are becoming Alliance High Elves. I agreed the scenario is possible. I do not agree that just because it is possible it has happened. We have proof that Blood Elves are becoming Void Elves. Those Blood Elves specifically tell us why they are there, which is to master the powers of the void.

Says the guy despite the fact two races in the game literally increase their population by "replicating" a process.

The use of the word replicable was not in relation to the process, it was in relation to the idea of hairstyles and beards. Hairstyles and beards are replicable. In fact, several of the in game hairstyles and beards that were formerly race unique are now shared between several races, such as Humans and Blood Elves sharing a few. While unique hairstyles and facial hair styles can be used to increase the sense of differentiation, they are not true differentiation. Undergoing the process of becoming a Void Elf is an example of non-reversible differentiation (at least not easily).

Lore. I can play a void elf or a blood elf and pretend my character is a high elf, but that doesn't mean my character is a high elf.

To roleplay your Blood Elf as a High Elf, simply roleplay him or her as a Blood Elf, as Blood Elves are High Elves, this is the expressed lore. Your Void Elf is not a High Elf at all in the traditional sense, it is another flavour of high elf. Being another flavour of high elf is the entire point of Void Elves existing. However, your lore origin can be as an Alliance High Elf.

And high elves are the original definition of what high elves are, which is what people want.

Which is pretty much what a Blood Elf is now. The initial spin on the high elf concept embodied by Blood Elves was the mana vampirism, the need to drain mana from other beings to sate their addiction. This was resolved in the restoration of the Sunwell. Now, over a decade later, we have Blood Elves whose addiction is sated by an arcane/holy energy source, some of whom are even manifesting golden eyes as a reflection of their devotion to the holy light. In almost every respect, Blood Elves now act exactly as high elves have done historically, whether within the context of the Warcraft universe or in reflection of the wider tropes within high fantasy that High Elves are supposed to represent. There is one major difference, the allegiance of those Elves to the Orcish Horde. What 'people' (actually the small pro High Elf community) want is a Blood Elf on the Alliance.

And both times you failed. Hard. "Moving goalposts" does not "refute" anything.

What they say is irrelevant, because they're irrelevant to your first claim, that we don't have blood elves "making the choice". We do. And you, in an attempt to save face, engage in blatant shift of the goalposts.

What they say is entirely relevant, it discloses their motive in joining the Void Elves. But enough of this, agreeing your theory that Blood Elves joining the Alliance High Elves is possible seemingly isn't enough, you want me to agree it is happening despite there being no evidence for it. I am not going to do that, because that evidence does not exist, and appropriating evidence of Elves joining the Void Elves does not accomplish that.

If it was, they would've stopped asking a long time ago. Yet... every time they hear 'no', they seem to want it even harder. It's almost as if every 'no' is not a "crushing event", but almost an incentive to keep asking.

Which disproves what I said how? That Blizzard's clear desire not to do this, and the source for that is them telling you why they don't want to do it AND going to the bother of creating a variant, hasn't stopped the request is no longer surprising to me.

And that's the crux of the issue, and why so many high elf supporters don't like void elves, and why they're not a compromise.

Firstly, many of the Void Elves probably used to be. Having been told the problem with Void Elves was that it appeared all of them were former Blood Elves, confirmation that the Void Elves can turn other Elves into Void Elves means you can play as an Alliance High Elf who undergoes the transformation. This means the apparent lore objection to Void Elves was settled. However, I am unsurprised this confirmation is either ignored or rejected, as I never truly believed that too many among the pro High Elf community were motivated by lore (or more accurately, their own perception of the lore, as the lore is pretty explicit that Blood Elves are High Elves.) I have always felt that what is desired is an aesthetic and thematic duplicate of a Horde race. The continuing rejection of Void Elves, even after we have confirmation that they could be Alliance High Elves, means that the real complaints were always about the look and the theme.

Secondly, why does the pro High Elf community have a veto on the compromise? The Void Elves are a pretty close match, far closer than I would have liked the Alliance to have. Those of us on the Horde side lost unique ownership of the model, which was a big win for the pro High Elf movement. Should we have had a veto on you getting the model in the form of the Void Elves?

Thirdly, why do you get to claim it isn't a compromise? Of course it's a compromise, Ion stated it was an attempt to give the Alliance something like a Blood Elf (whom he had spent the last minute or so carefully explaining that Blood Elves are High Elves) AND he called Void Elves another flavour of High Elf and Holinka nodded along as the Lost Codex guys described Void Elves as filling the high elf niche in the Alliance. But you seem to think it isn't a compromise because you didn't consent to it or agree with it.

It's not that sort of compromise. It's not the compromise worked out between two parties. It's an enforced compromise between a game developer and it's red lines and a group of fans. And do you think Blizzard was surprised the hardcore wasn't happy with the outcome? Everything they do has detractors.

It was a compromise. You didn't like the compromise. That's tough.

Or perhaps it's a culmination of all the power she absorbed into herself. We can tell she has already been hearing whispers, long before we even met her again, when Locus Walker said: "Remember: as long as your mind is your own, you control this power."

No it isn't, read the Three Sisters comic.

Yeah, and prove that the retort was nothing but bollocks. Because they gave nightborne and void elves. If they really cared about "keeping faction lines unblurred", void elves would've gone to the Horde, and the nightborne to the Alliance.

And yet here you are still arguing for Alliance High Elves. For Void Elves to blur the faction lines, they would have to be identical to a Horde race. You are upset at Void Elves because they are not Alliance High Elves. Alliance High Elves are identical to the Blood Elves, a Horde race. Therefore there is an inherent contradiction in your logic because IF Void Elves blurred the faction lines it would be because they are identical to Blood Elves and you would be happy.

You are unhappy because Void Elves are not Alliance High Elves, or at least not anymore. Void Elves, by virtue of being different, therefore do not blur the faction lines or threaten the integrity of the Blood Elves.

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This is the easiest way to give High Elves a new silhouette. A new posture/idle stance would be a simple add that would make them feel almost totally new.

No, it wouldn't. Posture is not enough to differentiate a race either. Posture can be a customization feature as it is for Orcs, but the new posture didn't make Orcs feel 'totally new'. As someone whose second favorite character is an Orc Death Knight, I can vouch for this.

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If that is the case then why were they allowed to visit Sunwell Plateau.

Because post TBC relations between the Alliance and Horde had improved a little and the philosophical point of divergence had been resolved with the restoration of the Sunwell. We are still unaware if these pilgrimages are still permitted, but when Alleria requested the right she was allowed to make one, even as tensions with the Alliance were beginning to boil.

Actually, the High Elf Wayfarers seem to be new additions to the Alliance and not "pre-BFA" Alliance High Elves. Assuming they actually want to become Void Elves that is and aren't just interested in studing the Void (e.g. Shadowpriests).

As stated by Anduin when he welcomes all new Void Elves:

"Anduin Wrynn says: Welcome, friend <name>. I am King Anduin Wrynn. As a new member of the Alliance, I wished to greet you personally.
Anduin Wrynn says: The void elves may be a recent addition to our ranks, but Alleria Windrunner is one of our greatest heroes. Under her tutelage, the powers you wield will aid our cause." -- For the Alliance

Therefore we cannot assume the High Elf Wayfarers were Alliance High Elves before going to Telogrus Rift.

Really? The High Elf Wayfarers are new additions to the Alliance? One of the constants we have from Blizzard regarding Alliance High Elves is how their numbers are really, REALLY low. New Alliance High Elves are unlikely to come out of the woodwork at this point.

As for Anduin's text, what of it? The Void Elves ARE a recent addition their ranks, in the same way the Kul Tirans are a recent addition to their ranks. A new group within the Alliance.
As for being 'a new member of the Alliance', also easily enough explained. Most 'Alliance High Elves' are actually technically neutral because they live in Dalaran. Overtly Alliance sympathetic, sure, hence the adjective Alliance High Elf, but they are neutral. Dalaran is neutral. The High Elf wayfarers talk about being banished for studying void magics as well, yet they can't possible be banished from Silvermoon as they've already been kicked out of there. The only other place they can be banished from is Dalaran. Look at poor Levia Laurence after all, banned from the city for her experiments with shadow magic.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Levia_Laurence

And, as I recall, it is the Silver Covenant Elves that people wish to play. Who live in Dalaran.

Which is the complex explanation.

If you want a simpler one, Anduin is having his ambassador hand out a mass produced letter that says the same thing to each individual and that because most Void Elves ARE former Blood Elves (unsurprising giving the vast population disparity) who have newly joined the Alliance, the letter primarily references their circumstances. In fact, if you want proof of this later theory, why not make two different Void Elves and see if the letter Moorgard hands you is identical?

Actually he wasn't all that explicit since he didn't clearly specify which Elves might be transformed into Void Elves. As I stated in an earlier post, Danuser's statement could also mean Nightborne, Night-Elves, San'layn, Undead Elves (e.g. Sylvanas Windrunner), Felblood Elves, Withered, Wretched and any other species that can still be considered Elven.

Considering they are all former high elves in game, whether Blood Elves or Alliance High Elves, this seems like an unnecessary complication. Sure, it's possible, in the same way Turalyon is a Lightforged Human, but I would argue that as every single Void Elf so far is a thalassian elf, that is what Moorgard meant.

His statement also didn't mention those Elves interested would have to go to Telogrus Rift to study the Void. Basically all the did was give a somewhat general and potential lore reason to explain seeing more than a squad of Void Elves in game.

Given the general aversion to shadow magic, it seems obvious they are going to Telogrus to study the void in peace. And there is no 'potential' about it, he's the writer. If he says Void Elves are turning other Elves into Void Elves, then that is what is happening.

Until we see the transformation he spoke off in game, or clearly described in a story we do not 100% know what the Silvermoon Scholars and High Elf Wayfarers are doing in Telogrus Rift. They could be studying the Void for other reasons than becoming a Void Elf. You don't have to become religious to study a religion. Blood or High Elven Shadowpriests also don't need to become Void Elves if they want to learn more about the Void from the Void Elves.

I would argue the opposite, between what we see in game and what he said in the interview, the expressed intent is that Void Elves can convert other Elves. Even you note the discrepancy in that he was trying to 'explain seeing more than a squad of Void Elves in game'.

I would also question the motive in trying to prove that Void Elves in fact CANNOT convert other Elves into Void Elves. Is it not driven by a desire to prove that not only are Void Elves doomed to die out, but that not a single Alliance High Elf can be among their numbers and so it is impossible to roleplay as a Void Elf who used to be an Alliance High Elf, and therefore Blizzard needs to add them?

This particular question is tainted by the ulterior motives of those debating it. Still, leaving that aside, I think Moorgard's comments are very clear.

[Ielenia]

Again, you have no proof that Blood Elves are becoming Alliance High Elves. I agreed the scenario is possible. I do not agree that just because it is possible it has happened.

Except I never claimed that, so I don't know why you felt the need to include that.

We have proof that Blood Elves are becoming Void Elves. Those Blood Elves specifically tell us why they are there, which is to master the powers of the void.

Except why they're here is irrelevant. The only relevant part is that they're "making the choice", i.e., leaving Silvermoon and the Horde to join the Alliance.

The use of the word replicable was not in relation to the process, it was in relation to the idea of hairstyles and beards. Hairstyles and beards are replicable. In fact, several of the in game hairstyles and beards that were formerly race unique are now shared between several races, such as Humans and Blood Elves sharing a few. While unique hairstyles and facial hair styles can be used to increase the sense of differentiation, they are not true differentiation. Undergoing the process of becoming a Void Elf is an example of non-reversible differentiation (at least not easily).

Then they could give HEs "replicable" features that the blood elves would not want to replicate. Add a bit of lore behind those features, like Alleria's facial markings. That is unique to her, for example. I don't think I've seen another blood elf or high elf with those. It's something the high elves could adopt, but the blood elves might not, considering they represent a now enemy of the Horde.

Blood Elves are High Elves

But not high elves are blood elves. I hoped you'd learn this important fact after so long...

Which is pretty much what a Blood Elf is now.

A Blood Elf is the redefinition of what a High Elf is.

You're contradicting yourself now. They cannot be both the "original definition" and the "redefinition".

What they say is entirely relevant, it discloses their motive in joining the Void Elves.

It's irrelevant because the question was never why they were doing it. The question is: "Are they doing it?" and the answer is "yes".

Which disproves what I said how? That Blizzard's clear desire not to do this,

And Blizzard's desire was clear in not allowing alts of the opposite faction in the same PvP server. Blizzard's desire was also clear in not bringing demon hunters as a playable class. Blizzard's desire was very clear in not wanting to do Classic servers.

Yet here we are...

It was a compromise.

It wasn't.

You didn't like the compromise.

Because it wasn't a well-thought out attempt. Or even a compromise. I have yet to read any Blizzard official statement saying those were their attempt to give the high elf community the high elves they've been asking for the longest time

No it isn't, read the Three Sisters comic.

How does that disprove anything, considering the comic happens after Legion?

And yet here you are still arguing for Alliance High Elves.

I fail to see the relevance since I'm not one that says "the faction divide will be blurred" while ignoring the fact it's already been "blurred". Twice.

[Traycor]

No, it wouldn't. Posture is not enough...

Yes it would. It changes the silhouette when the char is fully armored. It's the #1 way to know what race you're looking at fully geared.

Secondly, you like to make false equivalencies. One glance at the OP shows that I'm not suggesting only changing the posture and nothing else. But you already knew that. It seems like you feel compelled to "refute" any and all points on a matter of principle, even if those points have merit.

[Alanar]

This is the easiest way to give High Elves a new silhouette. A new posture/idle stance would be a simple add that would make them feel almost totally new.

They should have done this with void elves tbh.. they already look way to.much like blood elves to begin with. Their posture has become iconic to the blood elf race.. when I see one from afar I barely will notice the differences. Does a void elf wear a helmet you have no idea.

[Traycor]

Nope.

Alliance gets High Elves and Horde gets San'layn.

And i get two new alts (More like race changes, probably into a High Elf Mage and a San'layn Warlock)

PS: I'm also for Horde getting Ogres as well. So many people have been for asking them.

I'm on board with this as well, but it seems that to add San'layn you'd need to be adding Dark Rangers into the mix as well.

[Maxilian]

If that is the case then why were they allowed to visit Sunwell Plateau.

Mostly to evade conflict and is a way to thank the Draneai that helped liberate the Sunwell (allowing their allies to go in)

[Garfurion]

Really? The High Elf Wayfarers are new additions to the Alliance? One of the constants we have from Blizzard regarding Alliance High Elves is how their numbers are really, REALLY low. New Alliance High Elves are unlikely to come out of the woodwork at this point.

Really ? Blizzard has been introducing new Alliance High Elves into the game almost every expansion, including BFA.

As for Anduin's text, what of it?

It is officially part of the lore.

The Void Elves ARE a recent addition their ranks, in the same way the Kul Tirans are a recent addition to their ranks. A new group within the Alliance.

The letter doesn't address a group but an individual.

As for being 'a new member of the Alliance', also easily enough explained. Most 'Alliance High Elves' are actually technically neutral because they live in Dalaran.

Where is it written or said most Alliance High Elves live in Dalaran ?

Where does it say an Alliance member cannot live in Dalaran ?

The High Elf wayfarers talk about being banished for studying void magics as well, yet they can't possible be banished from Silvermoon as they've already been kicked out of there.

You are incorrect. They don't talk about being banished for studying void magics. They say:

"We need no longer fear exile for the pursuit of knowledge." -- source

Which means they were not exiled for the pursuit of knowledge because if they were they wouldn't fear it.

Even if they were banished, they could have been exiled from Quel'Thalas before the destruction of the Sunwell.

The only other place they can be banished from is Dalaran.

Any proof there are only 2 places in the world you can be banished from as a High Elf ?

If you want a simpler one, Anduin is having his ambassador hand out a mass produced letter that says the same thing to each individual and that because most Void Elves ARE former Blood Elves (unsurprising giving the vast population disparity) who have newly joined the Alliance, the letter primarily references their circumstances.

The letter is not mass produced. It has the name of the new member of the Alliance in it as well as Anduin writing he wished to greet the new member of the Alliance personally.

"Anduin Wrynn says: Welcome, friend <name>. I am King Anduin Wrynn. As a new member of the Alliance, I wished to greet you personally."

Anduin words are officially part of the lore and unless we have any lore contradicting with the text we should err on the side of caution and take it literal.

I would also question the motive in trying to prove that Void Elves in fact CANNOT convert other Elves into Void Elves.

I never wrote that. You are strawmanning.

[Traycor]

Love this quote about whether or not Blood Elves are High Elves...

They. Are. Not.

The very game makes a distinction. The novels and short stories make distinction.

As Horde, you fight high elves. High elf places are hostile to you.

Repeating the same lie again and again does not make it true. Blood elves are not high elves, not anymore. Their paths diverged a decade ago.

The way race is used within the game doesn't really refer to "race" it refers to "affiliation". Otherwise the Blood Elves would just be called High Elves.

[matrix123mko]

Love this quote about whether or not Blood Elves are High Elves...



The way race is used within the game doesn't really refer to "race" it refers to "affiliation". Otherwise the Blood Elves would just be called High Elves.

Not all of the magic, if you know what I mean.

[Obelisk Kai]

Yes it would. It changes the silhouette when the char is fully armored. It's the #1 way to know what race you're looking at fully geared.

Secondly, you like to make false equivalencies. One glance at the OP shows that I'm not suggesting only changing the posture and nothing else. But you already knew that. It seems like you feel compelled to "refute" any and all points on a matter of principle, even if those points have merit.

I have always said that this endeavour has been an attempt to reinvent the wheel in such a way that the resulting wheel is not round. That is impossible. Successfully differentiating an elf from a Blood Elf would result in something that was not a High Elf. Void Elves are proof of this.

There is no way you can successfully differentiate a Blood Elf from an Alliance High Elf because they are the same people. And the Orcs, both ordinary and Mag'har, demonstrate that posture is not enough to qualify as a major difference between groups because both Orc races have a posture option that 'changes the silhouette when the character is fully armored'.

Love this quote about whether or not Blood Elves are High Elves...

DeicideUH is not a developer. Ion Hazzikostas is and he said Blood Elves are High Elves. Chris Metzen, the guy who pretty much created the in game universe, said Blood Elves are High Elves.

The way race is used within the game doesn't really refer to "race" it refers to "affiliation". Otherwise the Blood Elves would just be called High Elves.

Alliance High Elves are indeed not a race, they are a splinter faction of the high elf race, the majority faction (by whole orders of magnitude) are the Blood Elves. And it's funny you link Taela Everstride's quote because what is she complaining about as the big difference? Blood Elves sucking magic out of things, i.e the initial philosophical point of divergence.

Taela Everstride was encountered in the Burning Crusade expansion. At the end of that expansion, the Sunwell was restored and Blood Elves stopped draining mana as they no longer needed to, as represented by the loss of the mana tap racial in 3.0. Taela Everstride's quote is therefore redundant, as with the Sunwell restored the only remaining difference is the political.

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Except why they're here is irrelevant. The only relevant part is that they're "making the choice", i.e., leaving Silvermoon and the Horde to join the Alliance..

Why they are here is entirely relevant. If they are seeking the power of the void, and they explicitly tell us they are, then allegiance to the Alliance is a secondary consequence of achieving their primary goal. Had allegiance to the Alliance been the overriding factor, they would have joined up with the Alliance years ago. They did not.

Then they could give HEs "replicable" features that the blood elves would not want to replicate. Add a bit of lore behind those features, like Alleria's facial markings. That is unique to her, for example. I don't think I've seen another blood elf or high elf with those. It's something the high elves could adopt, but the blood elves might not, considering they represent a now enemy of the Horde.

Alleria's facial marking were shared by other Elven units in Warcraft 2, they are not unique to her in Warcraft lore. If customization is expanded for all races, those are tattoos I would advocate being granted to Blood Elves precisely because they are part of the heritage of the blood elf race.

But not high elves are blood elves. I hoped you'd learn this important fact after so long...

It is not an important fact, as Alliance High Elves are distinguished only by their only allegiance to the Alliance. A high elf is playable as a Blood Elf.
Even the rationale cited by Taela Everstride as to why she was a High Elf and not a Blood Elf, that she wouldn't suck the magic out of someone, is no longer a difference following the restoration of the Sunwell.

You're contradicting yourself now. They cannot be both the "original definition" and the "redefinition".

Redefinition in terms of name only, there was some variance during the period following the destruction of the Sunwell and the need to drain mana from other creatures, but that has been resolved. Blood Elves now are, in every single respect except faction, identical to the high elves.

It's irrelevant because the question was never why they were doing it. The question is: "Are they doing it?" and the answer is "yes".

As explained above, the why is hugely important because it demonstrates these Elves are motivated by the chance to wield the void rather than serve the Alliance. If they were motivated by serving the Alliance, there was an option available to them that was never taken.

And Blizzard's desire was clear in not allowing alts of the opposite faction in the same PvP server. Blizzard's desire was also clear in not bringing demon hunters as a playable class. Blizzard's desire was very clear in not wanting to do Classic servers.

Lets take each in turn.

Allowing alts of the opposite faction on the same PVP server was a quality of life change introduced around 2009 or 2010 in preparation for when Blizzard introduced paid faction changes. The reason behind forbidding it was that they wished to foster a sense of community within each faction on each server and therefore a sense of competition. However at this point, many servers were lopsidedly one faction or another. It is also likely that Blizzard realised Cross realm technology, or something akin to it, would be needed in the near future (it would be added within three years and likely had a hefty development time) which would demolish the idea of a server community anyway. In other words, the internal logic behind keeping PVP realms faction locked was already breaking down by the time the financial incentive of paid faction changes caused them to reconsider.

The Classic Server movement was a gargantuan, epochal moment in Warcraft history. Blizzard's resistance to classic servers was rooted in the belief that players were looking at Classic with rose tinted glasses and that were they to play classic, they would recoil at the rough state of the game without the many quality of life improvements made over the years (hence 'You think you do, but you don't) and that the investment necessary to resurrect classic simply wasn't worth it. What the classic server community was able to do however was to demonstrate to Blizzard that they were wrong and that there was an audience for this version of the game. They did this through private servers, particularly Nostalrius, a sustained campaign backed by high profile individuals within the gaming community (including some ex WoW developers) and of course, sheer weight of numbers. The classic community petition on change.org reached something like two hundred and eighty thousand signees after all, demonstrating the sheer breadth of the desire for this product (as a point of comparison, the pro Alliance High Elf petition is somewhere above 700).
It also helped that within the MMO market, several genre stalwarts such as Everquest were experimenting with bringing back older iterations of the game for players to enjoy, to relative success, thereby demonstrating the viability of the idea.

Alliance High Elves on the other hand deal with the abstract concepts of faction identity and racial integrity in that providing a duplicate of a major race of one of the two factions to the other faction unacceptably blurs the lines between them, a situation that isn't really analogous to the others you listed. The Horde and the Alliance are valuable aspects of Blizzard's IP, and protecting them by keeping them distinct is definitely something Blizzard intends to maintain the foreseeable future. IF Blizzard ever changes their mind on the importance of faction distinctiveness, the result will almost certainly not be playable Alliance High Elves. Instead, such a shift in design philosophy would probably be realised by allowing members of the Horde and Alliance to group together in PVE content. That way you can still play that fair-skinned, majestic, blond haired elf alongside Humans, Dwarves and Gnomes.

It'll still be a Blood Elf though.

I am unaware of Blizzard expressing consistent antipathy towards Demon Hunters.

It wasn't.

It very clearly was.

The idea that Alliance High Elves were not considered for an Allied race is absurd, particularly as when Ion was asked about sub-races in 2015 the two examples that came to his mind first, based on player feedback, were Alliance High Elves and Mag'har Orcs. Mag'har Orcs are playable now. Void Elves are the result of an iterative process Blizzard undertook after considering Alliance High Elves and rejecting them on the grounds that they identical to Horde Blood Elves (except being Alliance).
Ion stated that Void Elves are 'another flavour of high elf' and 'something that felt a bit like a Blood Elf, but had a unique flavour of it's own to the Alliance'.

Because it wasn't a well-thought out attempt. Or even a compromise. I have yet to read any Blizzard official statement saying those were their attempt to give the high elf community the high elves they've been asking for the longest time

Perhaps because the high elf community wasn't the target audience and the entire Alliance playerbase was? The pro High Elf community is relatively small, if extremely vocal. Blizzard picked up on the desire for Alliance High Elves as expressed by that community, but that desire could not be met without crossing internal raid lines regarding faction diversity. Void Elves were the result. And given Ion's comment regarding the hate he was about to receive for the answer he gave, he knew exactly the reaction he was going to provoke by delivering that truth to that small hardcore.

Despite the upset among the hardcore regarding Void Elves, Void Elves are still the most popular race allied race in the Alliance. If they are the most popular allied race, then that means they are a success despite your upset.

It was a compromise in giving a variant of an existing Horde race to the Alliance, a variant different enough not to undermine the Blood Elves or the Horde, but still a thalassian elf.

How does that disprove anything, considering the comic happens after Legion?

It confirms that the Void Elf transformation was caused within Alleria by her consuming the Dark Naaru. Not that confirmation was needed, the cause and effect relationship between the act of consuming the Naaru and the manifestation of the Void Elf form is so blatantly obvious that it feels like a waste of time to continually go over this point with you. We know what happened, you have an agenda in disputing it.

I fail to see the relevance since I'm not one that says "the faction divide will be blurred" while ignoring the fact it's already been "blurred". Twice.

Perhaps setting yourself up as arbiter of what counts as blurring and what does not isn't going to work? Blizzard clearly feels Void Elves and Nightborne don't blur the faction lines after all.

Void Elves and Nightborne share the models, but in terms of theme, culture and aesthetics they are vastly different from their parent races. Contrast that with the Tauren and the Highmountain Tauren, or the Draenei and the Lightforged Draenei. Nobody is ever going to argue those groups are very different from their core race parents, there is considerably thematic, cultural and aesthetic overlap. But the reason they get away with it is that they are on the same faction as their parent races.

Crossing the faction boundary meant Void Elves and Nightborne had to have a much more profound differentiation than other Allied races could away with.

[Ielenia]

Why they are here is entirely relevant.

No, it's completely irrelevant. You originally claimed "we do not see blood elves "making the choice'", i.e. switching from Horde to Alliance, and when shown with undeniable evidence that are, in fact, "making that choice" right now, you move the goalposts by saying "yes, but they're seeking power."

You asked "are they?", and when you found out the answer was "they are", you immediately changed the question to "why are they?". It's nothing but you moving goalposts in an attempt to save face.

Alleria's facial marking were shared by other Elven units in Warcraft 2, they are not unique to her in Warcraft lore.

Considering I couldn't find any blood elf with markings on their face, I think it's safe to assume they're basically exclusive to Alleria.

If customization is expanded for all races, those are tattoos I would advocate being granted to Blood Elves precisely because they are part of the heritage of the blood elf race.

False. It's part of the high elf heritage, which the blood elves abandoned when they rebranded themselves.

It is not an important fact

It is.

Redefinition in terms of name only, there was some variance during the period following the destruction of the Sunwell and the need to drain mana from other creatures, but that has been resolved. Blood Elves now are, in every single respect except faction, identical to the high elves.

They're not. Especially philosophy-wise.

As explained above,

It's irrelevant.

Lets take each in turn.

There's no need. Implying that Blizzard's "no" is final in any shape or form is simply objectively wrong considering their past.

It very clearly was.

It wasn't. Because Umbric and his research team are blood elves from Silvermoon, not high elves.

Perhaps because the high elf community wasn't the target audience and the entire Alliance playerbase was?

So you admit it's not a compromise.

It confirms that the Void Elf transformation was caused within Alleria by her consuming the Dark Naaru.

Pray tell, how does it confirm that?

Perhaps setting yourself up as arbiter of what counts as blurring and what does not isn't going to work? Blizzard clearly feels Void Elves and Nightborne don't blur the faction lines after all.

Which is why their explanation about "blurring faction lines" is nothing but bollocks. Models do more damage to the "faction lines" than texture colors, because models are what define silhouettes. You can't tell a void elf and a blood elf from apart, especially if they're not in slut-mogs. Doubly worse for nightborne and night elves because they even share similar skin colors.

[FlubberPuddy]

First, apologies for no response to your previous post reply to mine. Got lots of stuff going on this past week and this coming week. Your lengthy posts take a lot of time to read through and give substantial responses too.

All that said, I saw some things that jumped out to me here and so I'll quickly point them out before having to step away from this conversation for a bit.

The classic community petition on change.org reached something like two hundred and eighty thousand signees after all, demonstrating the sheer breadth of the desire for this product (as a point of comparison, the pro Alliance High Elf petition is somewhere above 700).

The comparison in terms of signatures for Classic vs signatures for High Elves isn't an apt comparison. When people bring up that "Blizzard said no to Classic and still released" in using it to High Elves, they're making the point that Blizzard has said no to something explicitly before and that still didn't stop them from giving what was desired to players.

Another thing to remember is that the ask for Classic is something much more gargantuan than the ask for High Elves. It's having Blizzard spending a lot of resources into technology in order to have the Classic endeavor even happen.

On the flip side, they've already got an established back-end systems in regards to Allied Races, this has been said multiple times by the developers themselves such as Ion and Jeremy and Alex and is why they've made comments like how "nothing is off the table". They have a set, established system in place already.

Trying to imply that a similar amount of signatures would be required by wanting High Elves is very silly, since the order of magnitude of each request is vast between each other.

You would make a more convincing argument if you were able to show that other long-term requested races have petitions/signatures that "dwarf" the amount there is for High Elves. I think it speaks in support of High Elves that, to my knowledge, they're the only race petition in existence and have actual numbers to show for it along with the support numbers Blizzard have from what they can garner from their forums/fansites.

So to summarize: people don't bring up Classic to compared to High Elves because of the petition numbers, the main thing they're trying to point out is even if Blizzard gives a hard "No" - that still doesn't mean No. The request for High Elves is a vastly lower order of magnitude request than the request for Classic Servers.

Perhaps because the high elf community wasn't the target audience and the entire Alliance playerbase was?

Then it's not a compromise to High Elf fans, and as such is acknowledged in Blizzard not saying that it is. Then it becomes ridiculous as you continue to say they are a compromise after acknowledging here that perhaps the high elf community wasn't the target audience.

Despite the upset among the hardcore regarding Void Elves, Void Elves are still the most popular race allied race in the Alliance. If they are the most popular allied race, then that means they are a success despite your upset.

It was a compromise in giving a variant of an existing Horde race to the Alliance, a variant different enough not to undermine the Blood Elves or the Horde, but still a thalassian elf.

Yet Blizzard had no issue giving Horde a version of purple elf that it had never had before.

Ion on Highmountain and Nightborne: "Highmountain Tauren is culturally similar to a regular Tauren. Whereas, a Nightborne for example, is going to be much more distinct from anything currently existing on the Horde."

And this was in response to the interview's comment around 4:33 of "because the two we can play on the floor - it's like still a Tauren, right and it's still a Draenei."



Start at 4:44 to find the quote if the video doesn't start there for you.

The quote shows us two things:

1) Being culturally similar is not a detriment to becoming an Allied Race, it's not a factor that barrs a race from becoming an Allied Race.

2) Horde were given something, "much more distinct from anything currently existing on the Horde." That is in a succinct few words: Purple Elves.

And yes Nightborne are Purple Elves as shown here by a quest on Alliance calling you to kill "these elves might be purple, but they're no' with the Alliance."

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=49427/...r-purple-elves

Also on that note, Alliance were given another purple elf to add to the one they already had (Night Elves). Don't believe me that Void Elves are considered "Purple Elves"? Here's proof.



So in this case above, with Ion's comments, we are able to see that Horde gained something that was "culturally similar" AND "much more distinct than anything currently existing on the Horde".

The Void Elves don't meet the "much more distinct than anything currently existing on the Alliance" bit since they're still purple elves by developer in-game commentary. Which means they're just another addition to Alliance's collection of already purple elves (Night Elves).

I would say Void Elves also don't meet the "culturally similar" because they're culturally similar to TBC blood elves than what's on Alliance.

Also we know from the Danuser (Moorgard thank you for that correction) Interview that Void Elves were an intentionally controversial addition - they knew the audience would react the way they did to Void Elves.

You saying the numbers showing them a success, sure. That also makes it a positive for adding High Elves to Alliance further down the line due to:

1) Either they will be another controversial addition, meaning they will have success just as Void Elves were intentionally controversial.

2) They won't be controversial, which means it's less likely they run into issues adding them to the Alliance faction.

3) It gives Alliance something distinct than what currently exists on the Alliance.

Perhaps setting yourself up as arbiter of what counts as blurring and what does not isn't going to work? Blizzard clearly feels Void Elves and Nightborne don't blur the faction lines after all.

This is interesting to say because you tend yourself to do this. You're correct in that Blizzard clearly feels Void Elves and Nightborne don't blur the faction lines.

Blizzard has also changed their commentary regarding getting the High Elf fantasy/feeling on Alliance.

Ion: Blizzcon 2017 "Void Elves are a flavor of High Elves"

Ion: April 2018 "If you want to play a majestic, fair-skinned, blue eyed elf the Horde is waiting for you."

Alex: Blizzcon 2018 "It's possible, don't give up hope (emphasis his), but be respectful about it." (when asked if Void Elves could get High Elf customizations to get that "High Elf feeling")

This shows us that their commentary regarding High Elves is changing. This is a smol win for High Elf fans.

Regardless that they are not in-game now, because this request post-Void Elves has always been about the future. Just like Wildhammer Dwarves, or Forest Trolls, or Ogres - basically any Allied Race not yet in the game faces the same road: to be requested for the future.

I suspect this is due to BFA entering into its half-life and the faction war story about to wrap up in 8.2. So they're going to be changing gears and propaganding more about both sides working together because the tribalism portion of the expansion is about to finish.

And if you don't believe that Blizzard hypes up whatever is current for them, just take a look at how they viewed Garrisons as their version of Player Housing in 2013 but then turn around in 2019 and say something completely different.



Start at 5:10 if it doesn't for you. Ion 2013 - "Garrisons are the Warcraft version of Player Housing"

Skip to 2019 and "Housing is a big topic at Blizzard. The developers are still thinking about how to implement it so that it does not feel so clumsy."

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ntent-Creators

"still thinking how to implement" means they don't acknowledge that Garrisons are Player Housing anymore.

This is proof that you cannot take what the Developers say as is for any current expansion feature as truth because they will always hype it up as best they can. Just like Ion was trying to hype up Void Elves as much as possible and convince players "of their uniqueness" instead of acknowledging the hype there is for getting High Elves.

Ion even said in 2013 that Garrisons were like the MoP farm "turned up 10000x". If one believes him that regard then I have an amazing home to sell to that person.

Void Elves and Nightborne share the models, but in terms of theme, culture and aesthetics they are vastly different from their parent races. Contrast that with the Tauren and the Highmountain Tauren, or the Draenei and the Lightforged Draenei. Nobody is ever going to argue those groups are very different from their core race parents, there is considerably thematic, cultural and aesthetic overlap. But the reason they get away with it is that they are on the same faction as their parent races.

Crossing the faction boundary meant Void Elves and Nightborne had to have a much more profound differentiation than other Allied races could away with.

First, using "parent race" is a misnomer.

"Afrasiabi: The nice thing with allied races, especially because they’re not technically sub-races, is we can kind of do anything. Sky’s the limit."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hnewman.../#41797b8336cd

Ok so you acknowledge that having the same model but different themes, culture, and aesthetics is okay.

You also acknowledge that groups with "considerably thematic, cultural and aesthetic overlap" are okay because they are on the same faction as their parent race.

Then how would you define High Elves who "share the same model" but have different themes, culture, and aesthetics AND would be on a different faction than their parent race? And if "crossing the faction boundary has much more profound differentiation" then High Elves have that in spades. As they've been part of the Alliance since Vanilla WoW.

You see your logic doesn't make sense, because if it were true then Void Elves wouldn't have been an addition either. They have the same themes/culture/model as Blood Elves yet they are on the other faction. Only thing different is the aesthetic portion which developers have shown they're even open to implementing some High Elf aesthetics.

Whereas High Elves would have different themes, different culture, possibly same model? (High Elf fans are okay with a modified model), and different aesthetics because we have 3 different kinds of Purple Elves in the game now - I would find it hard to believe if Blizzard cannot implement another type of Fair Elves into the game.

Also Nightborne btw have themes/culture/aesthetics similar to Blood Elves. They are both Arcane-based, heavy magic using elves, which is part of why they shared overlap and were able to connect with each other. Even having their own well of energy that was tantamount to their sustenance. Their difference from the Blood Elves is clearly just a model difference.

So to speak to High Elf fans wanting a more "woodsy elf" and talking how that takes from Night Elves is silly, because Nightborne share that with Blood Elves and no one's been profusely complaining over that. Nightborne are just another "majestic elf" but skinned Purple and taller.

We must also remember this quote from Ion that guides how they view adding new races through the Allied Races system:

"Newman: Do you have a feel for how often you want to release new playable allied races?

Hazzikostas: Not yet. We need to learn how the content is experienced, how players are using them, how players are enjoying them, and see what makes sense. Obviously adding new races is exciting, giving players a way to express themselves, to customize the appearance of their character in a new way. Those are all great things. But there almost certainly is a world where there are too many races.

This isn’t real, but if there were 40 different races on the Alliance at some point, just walking around the city you don’t know what’s what anymore. You lose any sense of silhouettes. You lose a sense of identity. It’s important that we don’t get too far down that road."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hnewman.../#41797b8336cd

"You lose any sense of silhouettes". Well I suppose it's good now that the "High Elf silhouette" is now both on Alliance and Horde. Meaning there's a higher chance for High Elves to get added down the road since it would maintain "silhouettes and identity" of the Alliance - since y'know, High Elves are seen often around and as part of the Alliance.

This also shows that your theory of "only continually getting new races" through the AR system is false since Ion says here they don't want to lose a sense of silhouettes.

To me, it's just as how Wildhammer Dwarves are going to be coming down the line in another expansion, High Elves will have a better shot down the line now as well. Thanks to Void Elves giving that Thalassian silhouette to the Alliance playable races.

[Obelisk Kai]

No, it's completely irrelevant. You originally claimed "we do not see blood elves "making the choice'", i.e. switching from Horde to Alliance, and when shown with undeniable evidence that are, in fact, "making that choice" right now, you move the goalposts by saying "yes, but they're seeking power."

You asked "are they?", and when you found out the answer was "they are", you immediately changed the question to "why are they?". It's nothing but you moving goalposts in an attempt to save face.

When stating we do not see Blood Elves making the choice of switching from Horde to Alliance, it was within the context of your idea that some may choose to become Alliance High Elves. It is you have appropriated evidence of Blood Elves preparing to become Void Elves. These are two separate paths.

Blood/High Elves can only remain Blood/High Elves by NOT becoming a Void Elf. Once they become a Void Elf, they are something different.

Considering I couldn't find any blood elf with markings on their face, I think it's safe to assume they're basically exclusive to Alleria.

Yet Alleria is the only individual at all who has these tattoos, despite the fact they were a prominent feature of High Elven units in Warcraft 2. Either they are unique to Alleria or they are part of the heritage of the Blood/Alliance High Elves and could be considered as a future customization option. Either outcome is perfectly acceptable.
What would not be acceptable is an insistence that these tattoos are a possible differentiating factor for Alliance High Elves, which they are not due to being a part of the common heritage of the high elf race.

False. It's part of the high elf heritage, which the blood elves abandoned when they rebranded themselves.

The Blood Elves rebranding was just that, a rebranding. Nothing else was abandoned. The Farstriders are still the Farstriders, the Magisters still govern magic and the Sunwell is still the centre of their culture. In every aspect, Blood Elves live as they have for thousands of years. The Blood Elves ARE the High Elves of the Warcraft universe, and the past is important to them.

In fact, this year my character participated in a sacred rite of the Blood Elves remembering 'the last act of the High Elves' before their rebranding into Blood Elves and I got a pretty cool armour set as a reward. I find it difficult to entertain the notion that the Blood Elves have abandoned everything that they were, when all the evidence shows that the only thing they abandoned was the one thing you find most contentious...their membership of the Alliance which failed them.

It is.

No, it is not. Playable Blood Elves means the high elf fantasy is available in game. Just as the fact that playable Orcs means the Orc fantasy is available in game, even if specific clans such as the Dragonmaw are not.

They're not. Especially philosophy-wise.

There was one major point of philosophical disagreement, over consuming mana from living beings. That was resolved with the restoration of the Sunwell. All that is left is the political dispute.

There's no need. Implying that Blizzard's "no" is final in any shape or form is simply objectively wrong considering their past.

Implying that because they have changed their minds on other parts of the game that a change of mind of Alliance High Elves is seemingly inevitable is also objectively wrong, which was the point of my response. That and detailing specifically why each change was made and that it is yet more false equivalencies.

It wasn't. Because Umbric and his research team are blood elves from Silvermoon, not high elves.

And yet the possibility exists for your character to be one of those High Elf Wayfarers who finishes their training and becomes a Void Elf.

So you admit it's not a compromise.

Because I suggested that the pro High Elf community wasn't the entire target audience? As I have stated, you did not have a veto over the development of the Allied races. Void Elves are a compromise between your expressed desire for thalassian Elves and Blizzard's internal red lines. Nowhere was it put forward that the hardcore was expected to accept the compromise, because the only thing that would satisfy the pro High Elf hardcore isn't a compromise, it is you getting entirely your own way on this matter. A compromise you would accept therefore does not exist. A compromise enforced upon you however is still a compromise.

Which is why their explanation about "blurring faction lines" is nothing but bollocks. Models do more damage to the "faction lines" than texture colors, because models are what define silhouettes. You can't tell a void elf and a blood elf from apart, especially if they're not in slut-mogs. Doubly worse for nightborne and night elves because they even share similar skin colors.

Really? Because from my perspective it is lore, theme, aesthetics and culture being duplicated that would cause far more damage. The silhouette argument went out the window years ago with Pandaren after all. This is why suggestions for Alliance High Elves to get new models also don't work, as they would still be the same race.
This is why the Void Elves do not break the faction lines or undermine the integrity of the Blood Elves, because they have their own lore now, and their theme, aesthetic and culture are a void cankered version of the Blood/High Elf identity, there is a DIFFERENCE.

[Ielenia]

When stating we do not see Blood Elves making the choice of switching from Horde to Alliance, it was within the context of your idea that some may choose to become Alliance High Elves. It is you have appropriated evidence of Blood Elves preparing to become Void Elves. These are two separate paths.

The reason why they're making the shift from Horde to Alliance is irrelevant, unless you're implying that the blood elves' allegiances are so fickle that they'd drop everything at the drop of a hat (including friends and family) and join the enemy with the promise of power.

If so... Kael'Thas seems like a more apt representative of their race than Lor'themar or Aethas or Rommath.

Yet Alleria is the only individual at all who has these tattoos, despite the fact they were a prominent feature of High Elven units in Warcraft 2.

And considering blood elves have relinquished their name, future Alliance high elves could adopt Alleria's markings as a symbol of allegiance.

The Blood Elves ARE the High Elves of the Warcraft universe, and the past is important to them.

They're not. Because they're with the Horde. The "high elves of the Warcraft universe" are the high elves, not the blood elves.

No, it is not.

It is. Because we see no high elf option anywhere in the character selection screen.

There was one major point of philosophical disagreement, over consuming mana from living beings. That was resolved with the restoration of the Sunwell. All that is left is the political dispute.

Which is more than enough considering the bloodshed those "political disputes" have caused.

Implying that because they have changed their minds on other parts of the game that a change of mind of Alliance High Elves is seemingly inevitable is also objectively wrong

Thank goodness that's not what any of us are saying, which makes the "point" of your response completely pointless. You keep saying "they are saying "no" every time you ask" as if you're telling people to just stop making request, that it's never going to happen. And we're just pointing out that your line of reasoning is faulty at best since we have a decent number of instances where Blizzard kept saying "no" every time they were asked a particular subject, like classic servers... but then they changed their minds.

And yet the possibility exists for your character to be one of those High Elf Wayfarers who finishes their training and becomes a Void Elf.

That's an impossibility until we have factual demonstration in-game or developer word that the void elves are actually safely converting other elves.

Because I suggested that the pro High Elf community wasn't the entire target audience?

If your "target audience" is not the one that has been making the request for nearly the entire lifetime of WoW, then it's not a compromise.

Really? Because from my perspective it is lore, theme, aesthetics and culture being duplicated that would cause far more damage.

Congratulations. You just agreed with me that the void elves have done a whole lot of damage to those so-called "faction lines", because those void elves are literally blood elves, so all your "blood elf lore, aesthetics and culture" have just literally been 'ported' to the Alliance.

[DeicideUH]

“So, it’s all set, guys. All the allied races have been defined. Let’s get ready to work!”

“Only the Horde ones, sir.”

“What?”

“We only worked on the Horde ones. Nightborne and highmountain. We didn’t decide on the Alliance ones yet.”

“Damn, we always forget the Alliance things. We should deprecate and stop supporting that faction. Oh, well… what will we do? We didn’t seed any race for them…”

“We could go with the obvious ones, sir. Alliance could get broken and high elves. They’d be popular and make sense.”

“Hmmmm, no.”

“Why, sir?”

“Broken would take too long to make proper models. We have no time left for that. Let’s go with draenei that follow the Light instead.”

“But sir, draenei already worship the Light.”

“Oh, yeah, then… draenei with even more Light, from the Army of the Light. Make them golden instead of blue. People like golden things.”

“Uh… I think that can work, I guess… we will be seeing the Army of the Light in 7.3, after all. So, light… forged draenei? And high elves? Right?”

“Yes! I mean, no! We can’t do high elves either.”

“But they make sense and would be easy to make! Alliance wanted high elves since forever!”

“Alliance think they know what they want, but they don’t. We need to hear the Horde fans. They’d be upset.”

“But sir! You decided to give Horde the nightborne despite knowing Alliance players would be upset!”

“Yeah, but Alliance fans are used to be ignored. We can’t ignore the outcry of Horde fans.”

“Then, what should we do? We need another allied race to fill the spot.”

“Maybe if we make high elves somehow less appealing… hmmm… I know it! Since we got light draenei, let’s do the opposite! Void elves! Paint them blue and stuff. And give them tentacles!”

“Tentacles… sir…?”

“Yeah! And horns! And hooves! And a tail!!!”

“Isn’t that just a draenei, sir…?”

“Oh, you are right! It’s hard to keep tabs on Alliance stuff… scratch the horns, the hooves and the tail! That will make the void elves unique enough.”

“But sir, these void elves don’t even exist! There’s no time to make a proper race introduction this late in development!”

“Who cares? Lore can be bent anyways. Remember when we retconned Sargeras’ story for some reason? Someday we can flesh out the void elves somehow. For now, let’s say the void elves were living under a rock… IN SPACE! How cool is that? Horde will be happy, that’s what matters. Let’s do this.”

“Uh… right… we should at least think of the next allied races so we don’t end up deciding at last minute like this.”

“I already decided! Mag’har orcs! And Zandalari! Horde always wanted those.”

“And the Alliance ones?”

“Who?”

“The other faction, sir.”

“What other faction…? Oh, right. We should deprecate that one or something… aren’t there some kind of NPC dwarves around? What’s their name…? I never pay attention to Alliance storylines…”

“Dark iron dwarves…?”

“Yeah! Those! Okay, it’s decided!”

“Still one more to go, sir.”

“What? Why must we balance everything? The better faction should get more things. But okay, the last Alliance race could be… hmm… that’s hard… blue humans? Gold humans? No! FAT! HUMANS!”

“What…? Is that it? Won’t that be unappealing?”

“Well, if you choose the lesser faction, you can’t complain about appeal. Give the fat humans some lore and get to work.”

“Yes, sir, on my way.”

“Wait! Aren’t you forgetting something?”

“Uh? What am I forgetting, sir? Oh, right! For the Horde, sir!”

“Hellscream’s eyes are upon you, grunt! FOR THE HORDE!”

[Obelisk Kai]

The comparison in terms of signatures for Classic vs signatures for High Elves isn't an apt comparison. When people bring up that "Blizzard said no to Classic and still released" in using it to High Elves, they're making the point that Blizzard has said no to something explicitly before and that still didn't stop them from giving what was desired to players.

The counter-point is that giving on Alliance High Elves is seen as inevitable if the pro High Elf community persists. That Blizzard can change it's mind is a given and always has been. That they are clearly unwilling to is too often ignored, and other occasions where Blizzard changed their mind cited as precedent whilst ignoring the specific circumstances each volte-face occurred in.

Another thing to remember is that the ask for Classic is something much more gargantuan than the ask for High Elves. It's having Blizzard spending a lot of resources into technology in order to have the Classic endeavor even happen.

Classic is a far more gargantuan ask, but it is also one subject to different considerations and a different environment.Blizzard's great fear has, in my opinion, that the expense of developing a classic option would be rejected by a player base that had grown used to all the quality of life improvements implemented over the years, leaving them with an expensive dud. The sheer number of signatures for a classic server experience helps demonstrate the feasibility of the project to Blizzard, as well as other MMOs trailblazing the way by implementing similar options created an environment within the genre where Blizzard could evaluate the success of their own potential entry.

Alliance High Elves are not a request like that. They don't deal with new versions of the game, or require new server architecture, or a separate development team. They deal with something equally fundamental, the maintenance of the faction divide as the bedrock of WoW's gameplay, which has remained unchanged for over fifteen years now. Alliance High Elves would be far easier to practically implement than classic, but they are in direct opposition to some deeply held principles within the game.

Update 05/19/2019:https://www.wowhead.com/news=291757/...nd-calie-schie

Something quite interesting on this particular point I think it is important to add. In the interview linked above, Ion actually addresses the fact Blizzard said 'no' to classic.

"This was really just a matter of us listening to the community. It's something that's come up a lot. People have asked questions at BlizzCon for years "you're ever gonna do legacy servers?" and when we said "no" in the past it wasn't because we had some philosophical objection to the idea of it -- it's because we didn't see a way of actually making it real. "

So it turns out they were never opposed to the idea of classic servers, they simply didn't think they could feasibly do it. Alliance High Elves on the other hand are the complete opposite, the opposition to it is completely rooted in philosophy. The philosophy of maintaining distinct factions, as Ion has also previously explained.

On the flip side, they've already got an established back-end systems in regards to Allied Races, this has been said multiple times by the developers themselves such as Ion and Jeremy and Alex and is why they've made comments like how "nothing is off the table". They have a set, established system in place already.

'Nothing is off the table' cannot be taken as a carte blanché, as clearly some options ARE off the table. Anything currently playable in game is clearly off the table to be added again for example. Blood Elves, being High Elves, are off the table because they are already playable. And Alliance High Elves have been ruled out on two occasions since the 2017 introduction of the Allied race system. If you accept that Blood Elves are High Elves, and the developers clearly do so, then Alliance High Elves are off the table because of Blood Elves in the same way Green Orcs are off the table because we already have playable Green Orcs. And while Alliance High Elves are differentiated by being loyal to the Alliance faction rather than the Horde, that is the sole real point of difference between the two groups and as such falls foul of Blizzard's desire to keep the Alliance and Horde distinct.

Trying to imply that a similar amount of signatures would be required by wanting High Elves is very silly, since the order of magnitude of each request is vast between each other.

While the differences in the size of the request is important, the petitions serve as a useful guide to community sentiment. From the nearly three hundred thousand people who asked for WoW classic servers on change.org, we can see that there are three hundred thousand people active enough in communities across the web to do something as simple as access that website and click a button in support. The pro High Elf community petition, circulated in many of the same forums, has not managed to equal even a hundreth of the success of the classic server petition. I do not believe that the pro High Elf community is of a sufficiently large size to cause Blizzard to reconsider Alliance High Elves, given that Alliance High Elves pose a threat to the distinctiveness of both factions.

You would make a more convincing argument if you were able to show that other long-term requested races have petitions/signatures that "dwarf" the amount there is for High Elves. I think it speaks in support of High Elves that, to my knowledge, they're the only race petition in existence and have actual numbers to show for it along with the support numbers Blizzard have from what they can garner from their forums/fansites.

Alliance High Elves are also the only group truly ruled out, as the petition states in it's address to Ion Hazzikostas. Everyone else lives in hope. Only Alliance High Elves have been ruled out, on the completely fair grounds that the race is already playable in game as the Blood Elves.

So to summarize: people don't bring up Classic to compared to High Elves because of the petition numbers, the main thing they're trying to point out is even if Blizzard gives a hard "No" - that still doesn't mean No. The request for High Elves is a vastly lower order of magnitude request than the request for Classic Servers.

Which is a mistaken equivalence, assuming Alliance High Elves are likelier because they will require less effort than classic misses the point that Alliance High Elves are subject to completely different considerations for the live version of the game, particularly regarding design philosophy and the importance of Faction identity.

Then it's not a compromise to High Elf fans, and as such is acknowledged in Blizzard not saying that it is. Then it becomes ridiculous as you continue to say they are a compromise after acknowledging here that perhaps the high elf community wasn't the target audience.

The entire playerbase is the target audience. Assuming that any one section of the fanbase is the target audience implicitly gives that section a veto over Blizzard's choices. The compromise was therefore not between the pro High Elf community and the anti High Elf posters, it was between the desire for an Alliance High Elf and Blizzard's red lines regarding faction diversity. Nor can it be assumed the rejection of Void Elves by the pro High Elf community means the compromise failed. Every decision Blizzard makes has detractors, and that those most invested in the outcome being as they desired where disappointed by the compromise result were not satisfied will have come as no surprise.

Yet Blizzard had no issue giving Horde a version of purple elf that it had never had before.

My own personal thoughts on that are that Nightborne were created as part of a quid pro quo with Void Elves. We know the sub-race system was being thought of in the earlier parts of Warlords of Draenor, and we know that Alliance High Elves must have been considered and rejected. Once Blizzard decided to give the Alliance the Void Elf variant, the Horde had to be given something from the Alliance. Maybe in the earliest conception, the Nightborne would just have been magic wielding Night Elves before the need to differentiate them from Night Elves so as to grant them to the Horde was realised. There was no demand for Night Elves or even a Night Elf variant within the Horde, yet we probably have Nightborne because the Alliance were getting the Blood/High Elf variant that is the Void Elves.

Ion on Highmountain and Nightborne: "Highmountain Tauren is culturally similar to a regular Tauren. Whereas, a Nightborne for example, is going to be much more distinct from anything currently existing on the Horde."

And this was in response to the interview's comment around 4:33 of "because the two we can play on the floor - it's like still a Tauren, right and it's still a Draenei."


Start at 4:44 to find the quote if the video doesn't start there for you.

The quote shows us two things:

1) Being culturally similar is not a detriment to becoming an Allied Race, it's not a factor that barrs a race from becoming an Allied Race.

2) Horde were given something, "much more distinct from anything currently existing on the Horde." That is in a succinct few words: Purple Elves.

And yes Nightborne are Purple Elves as shown here by a quest on Alliance calling you to kill "these elves might be purple, but they're no' with the Alliance."

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=49427/...r-purple-elves

Also on that note, Alliance were given another purple elf to add to the one they already had (Night Elves). Don't believe me that Void Elves are considered "Purple Elves"? Here's proof.

Both Lightforged Draenei and Highmountain Tauren are on the same faction as their parent races. This trend was expanded with Dark Iron Dwarves and Mag'har Orcs.
Allied races on the same faction as their parents can be little more than extra customization options for those races as long as there is some lore rationale for SOME level of difference. Cultural similarity is not a detriment to becoming an Allied race in these circumstances, as the faction already possesses the initial culture and loses nothing. Void Elves and Nightborne were both subject to an additional requirement no other Allied races were subject to,of being on the opposite faction to their parent races. The space between them and their parent races therefore had to be far more profound than the others.

So in this case above, with Ion's comments, we are able to see that Horde gained something that was "culturally similar" AND "much more distinct than anything currently existing on the Horde".

Lightforged Draenei are culturally similar to Draenei. While Nightborne don't look like anything else within the Horde, the same holds true for Void Elves. Nothing in the Alliance looks similar to a Void Elf, hence the quid pro quo of their exchange. This is not an example of Horde favoritism when the Alliance got exactly the same types of Allied race as the Horde did.

The Void Elves don't meet the "much more distinct than anything currently existing on the Alliance" bit since they're still purple elves by developer in-game commentary. Which means they're just another addition to Alliance's collection of already purple elves (Night Elves).

How do you reconcile that with a game that displays their skin colours as being chalk white, dark gray and a gray blue, which contrasts to the far more vivid and alive tones the Night Elves have? Can the Void Elves be seen as purple? Yes, their is a purple hue to some of their skin tones and the race has a adopted a very purple aesthetic...and they turn bright purple when their void form procs, but they aren't anywhere near the same as Night Elves.

Besides, skin tone is just one part of the package, albeit an important part. Theme, aesthetics and culture all play a role. And the Void Elves are a completely different beast when compared to the Night Elves, almost other-worldly.

I would say Void Elves also don't meet the "culturally similar" because they're culturally similar to TBC blood elves than what's on Alliance.

TBC Blood Elves don't really exist anymore though, as the national agony over what to do with their addiction has been resolved with the restoration of the Sunwell and the Blood Elves settling back into being pretty much High Elves again. Void Elves are therefore welcome to the niche of elves messing with magics they really shouldn't, and they should have a richer experience for it due to the fact that they embrace this lifestyle willingly and there isn't really an off switch for it as there was with the restoration of the Sunwell.

Also we know from the Danuser (Moorgard thank you for that correction) Interview that Void Elves were an intentionally controversial addition - they knew the audience would react the way they did to Void Elves.

Which reaffirms my belief that when they chose Void Elves over Alliance High Elves they knew exactly what they were doing and anticipated the reaction. Which is not to say Void Elves are a failure because there is a long megathread on the US forums, Void Elves are a success as the most popular allied race there is.

You saying the numbers showing them a success, sure. That also makes it a positive for adding High Elves to Alliance further down the line due to:

1) Either they will be another controversial addition, meaning they will have success just as Void Elves were intentionally controversial.

2) They won't be controversial, which means it's less likely they run into issues adding them to the Alliance faction.

3) It gives Alliance something distinct than what currently exists on the Alliance.

Void Elves were intentionally controversial due to their lore and the fact they hadn't been seen before. Alliance High Elves are controversial as they are a proposed duplicate of a core Horde race. Alliance High Elves cannot be distinct, as being a duplicate of a core Horde race they diminish the diversity between the two factions. Both are controversial for different reasons. Alliance High Elves are, however, damaging to the faction divide that underpins the game.

This is interesting to say because you tend yourself to do this. You're correct in that Blizzard clearly feels Void Elves and Nightborne don't blur the faction lines.

Blizzard has also changed their commentary regarding getting the High Elf fantasy/feeling on Alliance.

Ion: Blizzcon 2017 "Void Elves are a flavor of High Elves"

Ion: April 2018 "If you want to play a majestic, fair-skinned, blue eyed elf the Horde is waiting for you."

Alex: Blizzcon 2018 "It's possible, don't give up hope (emphasis his), but be respectful about it." (when asked if Void Elves could get High Elf customizations to get that "High Elf feeling")

This shows us that their commentary regarding High Elves is changing. This is a smol win for High Elf fans.

I don't believe it to be so. Blizzard clearly perceives the request for Alliance High Elves to be a question of aesthetic, just the skin tones in other words. Even were Void Elves to get something approaching Alliance High Elf customizations, I would still regard the anti High Elf position as having prevailed because a Void Elf, while another flavour of Blood/High Elf, is still not a classic Blood/High Elf. A Void Elf will always be a Void Elf and there can be no pretending it is other than what it is. The question wasn't really about Alliance High Elves. It was about Void Elves.
Had they asked Alex about Wildhammer style tattoos on Bronzebeard Dwarves and he had also it was possible, would this have been indicative of the changing conversation around Wildhammer Dwarves or a win for more Bronzebeard customization?

Regardless that they are not in-game now, because this request post-Void Elves has always been about the future. Just like Wildhammer Dwarves, or Forest Trolls, or Ogres - basically any Allied Race not yet in the game faces the same road: to be requested for the future.

I suspect this is due to BFA entering into its half-life and the faction war story about to wrap up in 8.2. So they're going to be changing gears and propaganding more about both sides working together because the tribalism portion of the expansion is about to finish.

Allied races are going to get considerably rarer post BFA, and while you list several other Allied races, only Alliance High Elves face the barrier of the faction wall in being a duplicate of an existing Horde race and they always will. To achieve them means getting Blizzard to agree to a change on design philosophy on one of the most fundamental tenets of the game.

First, using "parent race" is a misnomer.

"Afrasiabi: The nice thing with allied races, especially because they’re not technically sub-races, is we can kind of do anything. Sky’s the limit."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hnewman.../#41797b8336cd

All Allied races currently in game have clear parent races. Should one be added that is not based on an existing model and is not a variant of an already playable race, that would not have a parent race.

Ok so you acknowledge that having the same model but different themes, culture, and aesthetics is okay.

You also acknowledge that groups with "considerably thematic, cultural and aesthetic overlap" are okay because they are on the same faction as their parent race.

Then how would you define High Elves who "share the same model" but have different themes, culture, and aesthetics AND would be on a different faction than their parent race? And if "crossing the faction boundary has much more profound differentiation" then High Elves have that in spades. As they've been part of the Alliance since Vanilla WoW.

The problem with this is that it is a contradiction. Blood Elves are High Elves. Therefore, the only way to differentiate an Alliance High Elf from what a Blood Elf is to make it a lot less a high elf. This is what was done with Void Elves and while I feel Void Elves don't damage the faction boundary, they are JUST about there. Blizzard created the Void Elves to be as close they could to Blood/High Elves without crossing that red line. A variant that was closer still would be too close, it would violate the faction boundary and the integrity of the Blood Elves.

You see your logic doesn't make sense, because if it were true then Void Elves wouldn't have been an addition either. They have the same themes/culture/model as Blood Elves yet they are on the other faction. Only thing different is the aesthetic portion which developers have shown they're even open to implementing some High Elf aesthetics.

The developers have not shown they are open to implementing High Elf aesthetics, they have said it is possible, there is a difference in that being 'open' implies a desire to actually do it. Nor is there any guarantee those aesthetics would allow Void Elf players to look like High Elves, the chances of a monkey paw result are very high.

The Void Elf theme is that of a race of Elves experimenting with a dark and dangerous magic. This contrasts with the Blood Elf theme of being stereotypical high elves.
The Blood Elf aesthetic is that of being a blond, fair-skinned, majestic elf with a heavy emphasis on red and gold. The Void Elf aesthetic is of being a dead-skinned (chalk white, gray, gray blue), dark haired, corrupted elf with a heavy emphasis on purple and gold.
The Void Elf culture is the Blood Elf culture, twisted by void influences and with a necessary antipathy towards the light that is increasingly central to Blood Elven culture. The presence of the shadow is very tangible.

This is a very simply put measure of the aesthetic, cultural and thematic differences between the two groups.

Whereas High Elves would have different themes, different culture, possibly same model? (High Elf fans are okay with a modified model), and different aesthetics because we have 3 different kinds of Purple Elves in the game now - I would find it hard to believe if Blizzard cannot implement another type of Fair Elves into the game.

All three kinds of 'purple elf' (who actually have quite distinct palette choices) have a lore basis as to why they are different from other Elves. Skin tone is not the be all and end all of the process. High Elves do not have a different theme, they cannot as they are High Elves and Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race. Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves have the same culture. And it would be odd for Alliance High Elves to get a new model for no reason when Void Elves, whose transformation would have justified one, did not.

Also Nightborne btw have themes/culture/aesthetics similar to Blood Elves. They are both Arcane-based, heavy magic using elves, which is part of why they shared overlap and were able to connect with each other. Even having their own well of energy that was tantamount to their sustenance. Their difference from the Blood Elves is clearly just a model difference.

Nightborne are culturally and thematically similar to Blood Elves. This is unsurprising given that both are descended from the Highborne. The split between the Highborne and the Lowborne persists to the modern day in Warcraft, with the alignment of the Elven races to the modern day superpowers matching it. The Highborne are on the side of the Horde, the Lowborne (the Night Elves) on the side of the Alliance. A few rebels from one of the highborne races are present within the Alliance though, which does spoil the symmetry somewhat.

So to speak to High Elf fans wanting a more "woodsy elf" and talking how that takes from Night Elves is silly, because Nightborne share that with Blood Elves and no one's been profusely complaining over that. Nightborne are just another "majestic elf" but skinned Purple and taller.

Except High Elves are not Wood Elves. They are High Elves. They already have an established theme and aesthetic. Attempting to appropriate that theme from the Night Elves to justify their addition is redundant. Besides, the one universally acknowledged Alliance High Elf organisation of any size is the Silver Covenant.

Who clearly live in a magical city floating in the clouds that is the closest Humans ever came to building their own version of Silvermoon.

We must also remember this quote from Ion that guides how they view adding new races through the Allied Races system:

"Newman: Do you have a feel for how often you want to release new playable allied races?

Hazzikostas: Not yet. We need to learn how the content is experienced, how players are using them, how players are enjoying them, and see what makes sense. Obviously adding new races is exciting, giving players a way to express themselves, to customize the appearance of their character in a new way. Those are all great things. But there almost certainly is a world where there are too many races.

This isn’t real, but if there were 40 different races on the Alliance at some point, just walking around the city you don’t know what’s what anymore. You lose any sense of silhouettes. You lose a sense of identity. It’s important that we don’t get too far down that road."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hnewman.../#41797b8336cd

"You lose any sense of silhouettes". Well I suppose it's good now that the "High Elf silhouette" is now both on Alliance and Horde. Meaning there's a higher chance for High Elves to get added down the road since it would maintain "silhouettes and identity" of the Alliance - since y'know, High Elves are seen often around and as part of the Alliance.

That conclusion makes no sense, as it ignores that one of the reasons Void Elves were introduced was as a substitute for Alliance High Elves and that that same Ion Hazzikostas has twice publicly rejected Alliance High Elves. Nor was the silhouette mentioned by Ion as one of the reasons they were rejected. They were rejected because they are identical to an already playable race.

This also shows that your theory of "only continually getting new races" through the AR system is false since Ion says here they don't want to lose a sense of silhouettes.

No, they don't want dozens of different races in game that could compromise the identity of the Alliance and the Horde. In fact, his focus on faction identity and maintaining that identity demonstrates exactly why Alliance High Elves were rejected, why Void Elves came to be and why Alliance High Elves are STILL going to remain immensely unlikely.

As for the AR system, the Allied races are going to be added very rarely and 'only when it makes sense', as they said. Alliance High Elves could have made sense the moment Alleria returned, leaving aside considerations of faction identity and Blood Elven racial integrity (which they thankfully will not do)

To me, it's just as how Wildhammer Dwarves are going to be coming down the line in another expansion, High Elves will have a better shot down the line now as well. Thanks to Void Elves giving that Thalassian silhouette to the Alliance playable races.

Which I completely disagree with, as to me Void Elves foreclose the chance. Not only do Alliance High Elves now damage the faction wall, not only do they undermine Blood Elves, but they would now undermine Void Elves as THE thalassian elves of the Alliance. Void Elves are as big a wall to Alliance High Elves as Blood Elves are.