1. #10481
    I am Murloc! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurluas View Post
    True I suppose. He tends to twist lore to his agenda though, completely ignoring the variety and subfactions the High elves have in the Alliance to try and lump them all as identical to Blood elves.

    If you want to get a deeper understanding of High and Blood elves, check their respective wowpedia page, then check also the Silver Covenant, Quel'danil and Allerian Stronghold pages.
    Subfactions? What sub-factions?

    This is not a group brimming with subtlety and variety. This is a nearly dead group of refugees.

    Quel'Danil is a hut. It's a nice hut, but it's still a hut. A hut in Wildhammer lands. Which also includes some Draenei.

    Allerian Stronghold was named after a High Elf, but it was not filled with High Elves, there were plentiful Humans there as well. And it's not as if they were there by choice, they were stranded there after the destruction of the Dark Portal. Do you really think it plausible that they are still there, enjoying Terokkar forest when they way home was opened years ago?

    No, there are no sub-factions or variety among them worth speaking of. When we talk about Alliance High Elves, we speak of the Silver Covenant, the only group worth talking about and even then that is pretty borderline.

    I believe this is a strong case of you seeing something more substantial when there is nothing to see.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    "If you want to be a fair skinned, light haired, blue eyed elf...sorry, the horde is there waiting for you"

    -Game Director Ion Hazzikostas

  2. #10482
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I didn't say it's a fact. I said it's likely because I find very unlikely that Umbric's group investigating the void had many, many, many hunters, warriors, and rogues as part of their research team.
    My bad. The first part came off as you stating it as fact and I glossed over the 'likely' part in the second half. While I admit it's a possibility, but until there's story to suggest; or in the least dev confirmation, that there's a safer method for conversion it's just theory. Just as my theory that more VE's could be made 100's of pages ago was just a theory, now we have dev confirmation; or if some people wish.. a hint (if people want to belittle it to that), that more VE's can be made.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    I think most of what's been said, both pro and against, has been said. Now the ball is just in Blizzard's court if they wish to do it or not. High Elves have been given so many suggestions in terms of artwork/possible lore explanations, the developers have received a lot of feedback on the topic itself (again, for and against).

    Until we hear more news in some form, until we see what the remaining Allied Races are for BFA and how they'll handle AR going forward, then not much to do for the topic but wait.
    And that I will actually agree with you on.

    I know I don't have to reiterate my opinion, but I just don't see HE happening with the idea that more VE's can be made, further detracting from a population that Blizz believes to be too small to merit representation as being playable. And I'm trying to be constructive, but that's why I believe the group should refocus to that of a Half-Elf request. It may not be the requested remedy, but it'll soften the blow should they choose not to.

    But ultimately, time will tell.
    Last edited by Yzak; 2019-05-05 at 10:53 PM.
    At times, the frequent redundancy and stupidity of these forums, turns me into an argumentative ass.

    To most of you, I apologize in advance. I will attempt to be nicer.

    To the High Elfers out there... If it doesn't workout how you believe/want don't try to paint Blizzard as the bad guy for your own hype building.

  3. #10483
    I am Murloc! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Which is why it's called an hypothesis. You even correctly called it as such. Do I need to list dictionary definitions?
    But an unconfirmed one. I would similarly hypothesise that virtually every Elf who was willing to reject the path the Blood Elves were on did so at the time of the initial split over a decade ago. Given that the issue that cause the initial split, the act of draining mana from living beings to sate an addiction, has been dealt with I would argue that any traffic from Blood Elf to Alliance High Elf would be a.) based on political alignment and b.) be incredibly rare, given we have seen no Elf in game or in fiction actually do this. However, the Void Elves offer a new and intriguing source of magic to these Elves, hence the Void Elves being sought out by Blood Elves (and some of the few remaining Alliance High Elves).


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Considering Dalaran guards and Silver Covenant rangers are not one and the same.. I don't think they are. And let me tell you that this assumption of yours is equally valid if we turn them toward the void elves: who's to say that 'rando VE #37' you see walking around Stormwind isn't the same 'rando VE' you meet while questing in Kul'Tiras/Zandalar?
    It is true that there could be a measure of reduplication with Void Elves, in fact this can be true of any species. To assume every nameless NPC we encounter has an existence confined to that zone seems spurious at best. Yet only Alliance High Elves are the only group for whom population has been cited as an issue in why they are not playable. This is why the pro High Elf community has attempted to prove Blizzard wrong, by doing things such as compiling screenshots of every Alliance High Elf in game. This is of course, irrelevant to the wider point. Their low population is the lore rationale behind their non player status, the explanation given for their marginal role within the Alliance. The gameplay reason, of course, is that they are a duplicate of an already available option.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    You were the one who implied that Dalaran would send its guards to fight.
    We got sidetracker. The point was that Silver Covenant guard in Wrath would have been guarding Dalaran and that individual could later have been deployed to the Isle of Thunder.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So we can with high elves. Blizzard could "handwave" another group into existence, or "handwave" their numbers. It wouldn't be their first time either. "Handwave". It's basically the more polite version of "asspull".
    No, they cannot. They reason they can handwave Void Elves is that all you need to make a Void Elf is a willing Blood Elf or Alliance High Elf and dose of magical energy. This has been confirmed by the polygon interview and the ordinary thalassian elves within telogrus, so we know this happens. The hypothetical situation of a defecting Blood Elf, while possible, has never been seen in game or described out of game. Defecting Blood Elves are not a plausible explanation for a substantial expansion in Alliance High Elf numbers. This leaves normal reproduction, which unfortunately is hamstrung by the time it takes for new Alliance High Elves to reach adulthood and the implication from Elisande that most of the Alliance High Elves are pro-creating with Humans, siring a generation of Half Elves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But not all high elves are blood elves. There you go, ignoring 'inconvenient facts' again.
    The fact is not inconvenient, it is irrelevant. This particular point has been cited again and again to me. My response to it is the same as it has always been. So what?
    If Blood Elves are High Elves, and they are, then the High Elf fantasy is currently available to players. That particular niche is catered for. Saying that not all high elves are blood elves while arguing that this somehow serves as justification for them being an allied race is as likely to sway me as an argument that as the Dragonmaw Orcs have left the Horde, then not all Orcs are Horde, and Orcs can be an Allied race for the Alliance.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So why are you against adding high elf customization to the void elves?
    Because Void Elf is not a title that can be conferred. Becoming a Void Elf means going the whole hog and embracing the void as a very part of their being, which produces the physical changes that differentiated them from Blood/Alliance High Elves. A Blood/Alliance High Elf who merely wields the void without taking this final step is not a Void Elf, they are a Blood/Alliance High Elf who wields the void in the same way a shadow priest does.
    Alleria did this in a different way, and while she maintains a normal High Elven form her Void Elf form is noticeably more pronounced than playable Void Elves. It begs the question as to which is the transformation and which is he resting state, is her Void Elf form now her normal form and by suppressing it she can return to a more traditional look, or is the void something she unleashes?
    Allowing Void Elves High Elf customizations undermines the Void Elves as a distinct group and would be part of an ultimately futile attempt to reconcile them with what they can never be again, a traditional thalssian elf. It also infringes on an aesthetic that should remain unique to the Horde, the traditional High Elf look, which is pretty much the biggest visual differentiator between Blood/Alliance High Elves and the Void Elf allied race derived from them. Many allied races derive their differentiation from two sources, aesthetic and lore. The lore is subjective, something we know about the race because we read about it or experienced it in a quest. But the aesthetic is something easily communicable within the game to everyone as a point of difference.
    Why can't Mag'har Orcs have green skin? Or Highmountain Tauren ordinary horns? Or Dark Iron Dwarves bronzebeard customization? Because it would defeat the point of making them an Allied race in the first place. You may argue that the reason none of those races can have those customizations is because of the lore. And you would be absolutely right. And that is the reason Void Elves shouldn't have Blood/High Elf type customizations. Still, this is not an impossible outcome. If Blizzard ever revisits the issue, this is likely where they would attempt it. Yet I find the chances of them doing so unlikely, and the chances of the pro High Elf customization being happy with the results to be even less likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It is relevant because high elves as a separate faction, opposite to blood elves, and as part of the Alliance, already exist. The only thing that we're asking... is that they're made playable.
    It is irrelevant. The only difference between the Blood Elves and the Silver Covenant, the only Alliance High Elf group worth talking about, is political allegiance. That is not enough.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    "If you want to be a fair skinned, light haired, blue eyed elf...sorry, the horde is there waiting for you"

    -Game Director Ion Hazzikostas

  4. #10484
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Damn, not even talking about you Obelisk in that exchange, but Syegfred. Oh boi.
    im not wrong neither, nice try though

  5. #10485
    I am Murloc! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    There's absolutely no high elf experience in the Horde.

    Indeed, in the Horde you are sent to fight high elves.
    Comments like this do not help your arguments.

    Blood Elves are High Elves. The developers have confirmed Blood Elves are High Elves. By saying 'there is absolutely no high elf experience within the Horde' you demonstrate yet again you are unwilling to take on board what the creators of the game and story have told you and you appear intent to argue what is essentially fanfiction instead, your own fanfiction, as canon.

    This demonstrates the very reason I am so utterly opposed to this suggestion, your clear desire appropriate the experience of a Horde race simply by denying they are what they are and that the REAL High Elves have yet to be added. This is not the truth.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    im not wrong neither, nice try though
    Oh well, I still don't believe I was wrong so the post I made can serve as a general re-statement of that fact.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    You don't even answer to FlubberPuddy, and i say this taking what you wrote here: "I prioritise responding to those I have been engaged in lengthier conversation with" which doesn't end being truth given you are ignoring certain people.

    Please get it straight..
    I have one person on ignore. It is not because he is rude, there are individuals who are rude who I have not ignored. Nor is it because he is a fantastic debater, I class Garfurion as one of the better pro High Elf debaters in this forum and he is not on ignore. The individual I have on ignore is on ignore for two specific reasons, which I am not going to get into on a public forum as that is not the point and would be rightfully classes as an ad hominem attack. I make this response in case you believe I am hiding from something, which is not the case.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    "If you want to be a fair skinned, light haired, blue eyed elf...sorry, the horde is there waiting for you"

    -Game Director Ion Hazzikostas

  6. #10486
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Comments like this do not help your arguments.

    Blood Elves are High Elves.
    They. Are. Not.

    The very game makes a distinction. The novels and short stories make distinction.

    As Horde, you fight high elves. High elf places are hostile to you.

    Repeating the same lie again and again does not make it true. Blood elves are not high elves, not anymore. Their paths diverged a decade ago.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    Except that niggling fact that Void Elves can increase their numbers with more BE/HE conversions, that have been hinted at happening in a Dev interview. Which would further detract from the HE population. Or is this the point that someone claims we're misunderstanding his statement.. again.
    Yeah, because suddenly there are thousands of exiles interested in being dipped into void juice and risk corruption. Including civilian population like bakers or smiths, and soldiers like rangers or warriors, who never had a lot of interest in arcane but suddenly are itching to be infused with the most dangerous type of magic ever until their skin turns blue and their thoughts are not their own anymore.

    And they'll all live in some tents in a rock in space.

    But there's too few high elves. Makes sense.
    Not a native english speaker, so pardon my typos and grammar errors.

  7. #10487
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    They. Are. Not.

    The very game makes a distinction. The novels and short stories make distinction.

    As Horde, you fight high elves. High elf places are hostile to you.

    Repeating the same lie again and again does not make it true. Blood elves are not high elves, not anymore. Their paths diverged a decade ago.
    they make a distinction of a group, like making a distinction of a frostwolf orc to a warsong orc, this do not make then different races

    The race is high elf, regardless of what some group decide to call themselves, rly, your comment about "repeating lies" its the most ironic thing i ever read in a long time, and you are competing with strong guys on this area.

    the game, the devs confirm they are, you are hitting on a wall.

  8. #10488
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Comments like this do not help your arguments.

    Blood Elves are High Elves. The developers have confirmed Blood Elves are High Elves. By saying 'there is absolutely no high elf experience within the Horde' you demonstrate yet again you are unwilling to take on board what the creators of the game and story have told you and you appear intent to argue what is essentially fanfiction instead, your own fanfiction, as canon.

    This demonstrates the very reason I am so utterly opposed to this suggestion, your clear desire appropriate the experience of a Horde race simply by denying they are what they are and that the REAL High Elves have yet to be added. This is not the truth.
    .
    To think you'd make me register to this den again to tell you how wrong you are.

    Take a breath and understand what Ion was talking about when he said that. He was answering a question about High elves as an allied race.
    High elves look exactly like Blood elves physically except for the eye color. So, for a practical new race it is the same as Blood elves.
    They are clearly NOT the same race in lore though. They are different factions and different types of elf. Blood elves are high elves who tapped into fel energies, as shown by their green eyes (later into the light). High elves tapped into the arcane and their eyes are blue, not tainted by the fel. They have inherently different motivations. When they tapped into the fel, those diverged, just like the void elves have. They are different, but not different enough from a physical pov to justify being an allied race as he pointed. Not enough differentiation. Both are fair skinned elves, aka nearly the same physically. That is what Ion was obviously talking about.

    Now, stop misquoting and misrepreseting what he said to suit some hate agenda. Blood elves are NOT high elves. Thank you, and don't even try. This is reality. Oh and idc about HE's. You were just too wrong to let slide. Don't take things out of context. It leads to mess ups.
    Last edited by Swnem; 2019-05-05 at 11:56 PM.

  9. #10489
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they make a distinction of a group, like making a distinction of a frostwolf orc to a warsong orc, this do not make then different races

    The race is high elf, regardless of what some group decide to call themselves, rly, your comment about "repeating lies" its the most ironic thing i ever read in a long time, and you are competing with strong guys on this area.

    the game, the devs confirm they are, you are hitting on a wall.
    Only thing hitting a wall is your head.

    The very lore separates them, just like it separates orc and mag'har or draenei and lightforged.

    Blood elves are not high elves.

    ------------------

    “We must put this misery behind us. We must enter a new chapter! And so I say to you that, as of this day, we are no longer high elves! In honor of the blood that was shed throughout this kingdom, in honor of the sacrifices of our brothers and sisters, our parents, and our children, in honor of Anasterian… as of this day we will take the name of our royal lineage! As of this day, we are sin’dorei! For Quel’Thalas! Hail to the sin’dorei!”

    – Kael’thas Sunstrider, Blood of the Highborne

    -------------------

    "As I suspected, it gets worse up ahead. The Silver Covenant is outright attacking innocent Sunreavers!

    This cannot stand. While our prime directive is to rescue Aethas Sunreaver, we must also protect as many blood elves as we can."


    – Rommath, Quest: Violence in the Arena

    -------------------

    “It unsettles me to have to fight directly with the high elves of the Silver Covenant… but I never tire of slaying Alliance.”

    – Rommath, Quest: The Kirin Tor’s True Colors

    -------------------

    “Do you know how many elves—sin’dorei and quel’dorei alike—died to defend that land? How many continue to die? And you say I should just let it go? What the hell is wrong with you?”

    – Lor’themar Theron, In the Shadow of the Sun

    -------------------

    Baenan spat on the floor near the elf’s feet. “Ye blood elves wouldn’t know nobility if ye had th’ definition tattooed on yer foreheads. Pathetic, slavering magic addicts, ye even sold out yer own people!”

    Talithar’s face whitened, giving Baenan the satisfaction of having hit a nerve. He realized it was unwise to bait his jailor, but he was too angry to care.

    “Aye,” he pressed, “I’ve met high elves in me life. I know what ye did tae them. I come from Loch Modan; I’ve heard th’ stories from th’ Farstrider lass there—”


    – Quest for Pandaria, Part 4

    -------------------

    “You think I do not know what I am? We sin’dorei were given a choice: our integrity or our well-being. As if that were any kind of choice at all. I chose my well-being. My wife chose her integrity.”

    – Talithar Swiftwind, Quest for Pandaria, Part 4

    -------------------

    One hundred years ago…

    I and a small group of other High Elves traveled here from our homeland, Quel’thalas. We sought the ancient mysteries of Kel’thoril… to find why it was destroyed.

    We found fragments in the ice, shards of the crystal. The Archmage we accompanied did not take long to fall under their sway. In our foolishness, we noticed too late.

    His spirit wanders in the southeast, among those he drove to madness, still clutching the memory of the precious shard…



    Maenius was a powerful mage and an honorable elf. His spirit did not deserve such an ignoble fate.



    We were shocked before we died. Shocked that one among our noble and austere kind could descend into vicious obsession so quickly. We died as naive fools, the victims of our own blithe assumptions.

    The living would know that these events would play out yet again… both here, and among the entire elven race with the fall of Quel’thalas.



    Long after my death, my people would suffer an even greater mistake. The High Elves relied on the Sunwell and its glory. Never imagining a world without it, we would never make preparations to deal with such a fate.

    Later, when the Sunwell fell to the forces of the undead, what was left of my descendants would be lost and helpless… and the path they would take in response would change them forever.

    The Sin’dorei, still striving for redemption, would return here as well…


    – Quel’dorei Spirit, Quest: Legacy of the High Elves 1 and Quest: Descendents of the High Elves

    -------------------

    We were not naive, as our forefathers were. We were suspicious and cunning and ready for betrayal at every turn.

    Yet our pride and greed drove us to ruin once more. How many more will be lost to Kel’theril?



    One year ago…

    The legend of the Crystal of Zin-Malor reached Silvermoon, and I led a group of the finest warriors and scholars avaliable to this land. We brought ample mana crystals, so none of us would be tempted to taste the crystal itself.

    The crystal did not need our hunger to ruin us. Once in our possession, it warped all but me into wretched beasts.


    – Sin’dorei Spirit, Quest: Descendents of the High Elves and Quest: Pain of the Blood Elves

    -------------------

    The opening of the Dark Portal brought news of my people’s fate. In a way, my exile shielded me from sharing in their downfall, but to see the Farstriders throw their lot in with Kael’thas…

    I never imagined my one-time brethren capable of such a thing.

    The homecoming I once dreamt of will never happen. This forest is the only home I have left.


    – Theloria Shadecloak

    -------------------

    No, don’t feel bad. I get that a lot.

    <Taela looks both amused and annoyed.>

    I’m a HIGH elf, not a blood elf. Don’t worry, I’m not going to suck all of the magic out of you.


    – Taela Everstride

    -------------------

    With those vessels and their power in hand, the scattered survivors of my people can resist the lure of demonic magic. Every quel’dorei we can save from our prince’s folly is one more that can help us regain our lost glory.

    – Ros’eleth, (Quest: Vessels of Power)
    Last edited by DeicideUH; 2019-05-06 at 12:03 AM.
    Not a native english speaker, so pardon my typos and grammar errors.

  10. #10490
    Warchief FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Snip
    This is a very well-formatted post. Thank you for that.

  11. #10491
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Only thing hitting a wall is your head.

    The very lore separates them, just like it separates orc and mag'har or draenei and lightforged.
    thats a big fat lie, you can try bend and spin the lore all you want but you are just wrong.

    Draeneis were separated from ten thousand of years and undergo a ritual to change their bodies magically

    the maghar came from another freaking dimension, with no corruption, the azeroth orcs Drank literally fel goo/demon blood

    blood eles just decide to rename themselves a few years ago, thus, the simple act of renaming do not make then a different race.
    Blood elves are not high elves.
    Are you rly using that mantra about telling something thousand times make become true? even when there is actually canon proof saying they are? just choosing what "lore is good for you" i assume?

    “We must put this misery behind us. We must enter a new chapter! And so I say to you that, as of this day, we are no longer high elves!


    Words to not change a race, no matter what they decide to call themselves they are biological high elves, they decide to change their mentality, and this do not change your race, no matter how hard you try.

    This cannot stand. While our prime directive is to rescue Aethas Sunreaver, we must also protect as many blood elves as we can."

    – Rommath, Quest: Violence in the Arena
    Making a distinction of the group, not the race, so they do not kill every high elf, rly, you are grasping so hard at staws that i can smell it

    “It unsettles me to have to fight directly with the high elves of the Silver Covenant… but I never tire of slaying Alliance.”

    – Rommath, Quest: The Kirin Tor’s True Colors
    this don't proof they are a different race, just making a distinction of a group

    “Do you know how many elves—sin’dorei and quel’dorei alike—died to defend that land? How many continue to die? And you say I should just let it go? What the hell is wrong with you?”
    ditto

    I’m a HIGH elf, not a blood elf. Don’t worry, I’m not going to suck all of the magic out of you.

    – Taela Everstride
    yes and? its like thrall saying "im a frostwolf orc, not a warsong orc, i will not cut your trees, oh rly, both are orcs

    you look like you cannot make the actual distinction of a race, or what is a race, and a group within a race, clearly common mistake in this kind of thread.

  12. #10492
    Warchief FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I have one person on ignore. It is not because he is rude, there are individuals who are rude who I have not ignored. Nor is it because he is a fantastic debater, I class Garfurion as one of the better pro High Elf debaters in this forum and he is not on ignore. The individual I have on ignore is on ignore for two specific reasons, which I am not going to get into on a public forum as that is not the point and would be rightfully classes as an ad hominem attack. I make this response in case you believe I am hiding from something, which is not the case.
    Wow, and here I thought it was due to my "overuse of smilies" which is what was said before.

    I'm not sure if I should feel special or not, but glad to know it's not because of me being rude.

  13. #10493
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    But an unconfirmed one.
    Hence: hypothesis!

    Dude. Hypothesis are unconfirmed by nature. When you confirm a hypothesis, it's no longer a hypothesis. it becomes a fact.

    Again, do I really need to list word definitions?

    No, they cannot.
    Yes, they can. They're the writers of the game's lore. They can do literally anything they want, story-wise. Mention a group of high-elves that wasn't mentioned before to boost their numbers? They can! Pull high elves from another dimension? Of course! Make the blood elf society have a huge internal dispute that makes many of those elves leave Silvermoon and join the high elves? Easily!

    The fact is not inconvenient, it is irrelevant. This particular point has been cited again and again to me. My response to it is the same as it has always been. So what?
    It's not irrelevant, no matter how hard you wish it to be. The high elf community is asking for high elves, not blood elves. And yet, with your constantly 'blood elves are high elves', you continue to imply that all high elves as being blood elves. They're not. There is a distinction between the two, that makes them want high elves.

    If Blood Elves are High Elves, and they are,
    But not all high elves are blood elves.

    then the High Elf fantasy is currently available to players.
    One particular, important item of the "high elf fantasy" is that they're part of the Alliance. Another particular item is that they refused to cause harm to animals to sate their addiction. Those are not present in the "blood elf fantasy". The "blood elf fantasy" is the fantasy of a race that will do whatever it takes to survive and endure, including letting go of their ancient principles. The "high elf fantasy" is the fantasy of a race that would stick to their principles.

    Because Void Elf is not a title that can be conferred. Becoming a Void Elf means going the whole hog and embracing the void as a very part of their being, which produces the physical changes that differentiated them from Blood/Alliance High Elves.
    The whole reason void elves are all purple is because of the void corruption ritual that Alleria stopped when she saved Umbric and his research team. Why is it so alien to you to consider that the more refined, safer procedure the void elf magisters research would allow some elves to retain their natural skin color? Especially since we know it is possible thanks to the existence of Alleria?

    It is irrelevant.
    It's not. Good try though. No, not really.
    Is there anything from vanilla WoW you are not looking forward to despite your hype for Classic? Come and tell us what it is.

  14. #10494
    Warchief FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Snip
    The point is, what is the purpose of distinguishing the groups if that wasn't important? No one's saying they're "a different race" merely distinguished enough to be a separate playable option.

    An Orc is still an Orc, whether they are green skinned or called Mag'har are they not?

    What is the purpose also then of quotes such as, “Do you know how many elves—sin’dorei and quel’dorei alike—died to defend that land? How many continue to die? And you say I should just let it go? What the hell is wrong with you?”

    Were they not ALL quel'dorei then? Are they not ALL quel'dorei now if "Blood Elves are High Elves"?

    This is the point we're trying to make, the name actually encompasses a lot of distinguishing factors between the groups. If they were literally the same, then they would not be referring to each other with different terms.

    And obviously we see they don't just use the different terms when referring to "not kill every high elf" as the one I quoted above.

    Even you agree here with this line

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    just making a distinction of a group
    And that's the entire point of this all, High Elves are distinctive enough as a group to make for another playable option on the Alliance.

    The only ones who have ever been bringing up "they are the same race" are anti-helf distractors utilizing red herring fallacies.

  15. #10495
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you look like you cannot make the actual distinction of a race, or what is a race, and a group within a race, clearly common mistake in this kind of thread.
    Being the same biological race means nothing for the purpose of differentiating playable races.

    A lightforged draenei is still a draenei.
    A mag'har orc is still an orc.
    A dark iron dwarf is still a dwarf.
    A kul tiran human is still a human.

    High elves and blood elves may be the same biological race, but they have traits they don't share, which include physical traits (unpolluted eyes), culture (relationship to magic) and allegiance. Blood elves are not high elves, whatever you choose to call the base race both are, (we chose to call it "thalassian elves", since it avoids confusion and includes the void elves), those names mean different things nowadays.

    If they were the same thing, the game wouldn't need to have different skins and voice files for each, it could just use the same ones for both.
    Last edited by DeicideUH; 2019-05-06 at 12:36 AM.
    Not a native english speaker, so pardon my typos and grammar errors.

  16. #10496
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    The point is, what is the purpose of distinguishing the groups if that wasn't important? No one's saying they're "a different race" merely distinguished enough to be a separate playable option.
    the point is he is wrong, they are the same race

    you can say about different groups and talk about if blizzard can add the same race again just because they are another group, this is not my concern not even my point, but saying they are not the race is simple wrong.
    An Orc is still an Orc, whether they are green skinned or called Mag'har are they not?
    you are again using the false equivalence

    you are trying to compare blood elves and high elves to maghar orcs and green orcs, or other allied race like taurens and highmountains this is wrong,

    you can compare a BE and HE dilema with Warsong orcs and Frostwolf orcs, both are the exactly same race of orc but from different groups, exactly like the elves

    the rest is not my problem and i don't want dig in the rabbit hole.
    And that's the entire point of this all, High Elves are distinctive enough as a group to make for another playable option on the Alliance.
    they are not distinctive enough, all other allied races have biological and magic altered distinctions, not just changing their names and putting feathers on their hair.

    you will have to wait until a magic event make then different(like what happened with void elves), wait some thousand of years of speciation or more, taking account how elves reproduce slow or just give up and wait for half elves, who in my opinion is ten times better for the baggage it can bring from dnd and they would be the same legolas vibe you guys so desperately want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Being the same biological race means nothing for the purpose of differentiating playable races.
    it actually means everything, because all allied races are not the same biological race they came from, they have distinguishable differences in their appearance both by magic ways or biology, making then different.

    i already answer about this false equivalence in the post above

  17. #10497
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    it actually means everything, because all allied races are not the same biological race they came from, they have distinguishable differences in their appearance both by magic ways or biology, making then different.
    It means nothing.

    First, because there is at least one notable physical difference between high and blood elves: the eyes.

    Second, because orcs are orcs, and dwarves are dwarves. Thrall and Aggra had children. Moira and Dagran also did. No one questioned that until the high elf debate started. We even called them sub-races before the "allied race" system was introduced.

    Third, I'm still waiting you to counter my quotes from canon lore with canon lore that supports your position.
    Not a native english speaker, so pardon my typos and grammar errors.

  18. #10498
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    It means nothing.
    you cannot decide what mean and what not this is not how it work

    First, because there is at least one notable physical difference between high and blood elves: the eyes.
    this not a notable physical difference, cause the change it not actually in the eyes, but in the glow of the eye, related to the magic they are using or being affected by, as per lore say even high elves that stay too much time in quel'thalas would have the same glow

    this is not a difference of race, a human with blue eyes is the same race of a human with brown eyes.

    Second, because orcs are orcs, and dwarves are dwarves.
    Again, you are using the false equivalence, dwarves and orcs are already in a distinction of genre, not just specie

    Green orc and maghar orc are both orcs, both not the same specie of orcs, they have not just decades of racial difference they also came from another reality and didn't suffer the effects of corruptions by drinking demon blood

    Meanwhile Warsong orcs and frostwolves orcs are both orcs YET the same specie of orcs, they just chose to rename themselves in another clan(group)

    Blood elves and high elves enter in the same ground of the second, not the first one.

    Thrall and Aggra had children. Moira and Dagran also did. No one questioned that until the high elf debate started. We even called them sub-races before the "allied race" system was introduced.
    And alleria did have a child with Turalyon this also mean that elves and humans are the same race too?

    your logic is poor.

    Third, I'm still waiting you to counter my quotes from canon lore with canon lore that supports your position.
    they are already countered, you just chose to ignore

    they are the same race
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2019-05-06 at 12:54 AM.

  19. #10499
    You’re never gonna give it up!
    They’re always gonna let you down.
    ‘cause their name is Blizzard and
    they said it’s not happening!

  20. #10500
    Warchief FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the point is he is wrong, they are the same race

    you can say about different groups and talk about if blizzard can add the same race again just because they are another group, this is not my concern not even my point, but saying they are not the race is simple wrong.
    Again, who is saying they aren't the same race? Literally the only people who keep chiming in about "they are the same race" is you and most other anti-helfers. People who want High Elves don't give a shit if they are the same race.

    Being the same race doesn't preclude you from becoming a playable option. If this was true we wouldn't have the AR system in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you are again using the false equivalence

    you are trying to compare blood elves and high elves to maghar orcs and green orcs, or other allied race like taurens and highmountains this is wrong,

    you can compare a BE and HE dilema with Warsong orcs and Frostwolf orcs, both are the exactly same race of orc but from different groups, exactly like the elves

    the rest is not my problem and i don't want dig in the rabbit hole.
    Of course you don't want to "dig in the rabbit hole" because you know you'll be proven wrong just like what I'm about to ask you right now

    You say comparing Mag'har Orc to Green Orc or Tauren to Highmountain is wrong? Why is it wrong?

    Are you telling me that Mag'har Orc and Green Orc are NOT the same race, they both are NOT Orcs? Answer this question, I really want to see your answer to this bolded portion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    this not a notable physical difference, cause the change it not actually in the eyes, but in the glow of the eye, related to the magic they are using or being affected by, as per lore say even high elves that stay too much time in quel'thalas would have the same glow

    this is not a difference of race, a human with blue eyes is the same race of a human with brown eyes.
    But you'd consider a human with dark skin vs a human with light skin a different race then? Because that's practically what you're saying lol.

    "races" in WoW aren't actual races, they're more "ethnicities". If "Races" had to stay different we wouldn't be having 3 different kinds of Humans (4 if you count dead humans), or 2 dwarves/orcs/tauren/trolls/draenei, 4 elves, etc etc.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    And alleria did have a child with Turalyon this also mean that elves and humans are the same race too?

    your logic is poor.
    And that child is referred to as a "Half-Elf" because he actually had different racial parents: A Human father and Elf mother.

    The only person's logic being poor here is yours. No wonder you'd like to have Ogres be playable one day. I hope they are too, for your sake.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Green orc and maghar orc are both orcs, both not the same specie of orcs, they have not just decades of racial difference they also came from another reality and didn't suffer the effects of corruptions by drinking demon blood

    Meanwhile Warsong orcs and frostwolves orcs are both orcs YET the same specie of orcs, they just chose to rename themselves in another clan(group)
    You realize that "Mag'har" literally means "Uncorrupted" right? You realize that every Green Orc was once "Mag'har" and that even if they are Green now they can still mate, have a child, and it's still referred to as "the same species" which is Orc.

    The Green Orcs still carry every single tradition/culture that "Mag'har Orcs" carry. There's nothing different about these two groups besides one is green skin and the other is brown.

    If skin color is all it takes then make some Brown Elves with the High Elves and we're good to go. Cuz High Elves and Blood Elves have different traditions/culture as well as their difference in eye color.

    No one is going around calling Thrall and Aggra's child a half-orc/half-breed/different species orc. Because both groups are still Orcs. Holy crap the obtuseness in this one post.

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