Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Neverafter]

We cannot invent a new concept out of nowhere since we are requesting for an existing asset to be made playable (1) with all that it implies.

There have already been many suggestions of possible things that they could use for playable HE, we cannot do the dev's work, since they are the ones who would work on that in the end, and not us.

(1) When an Allied Race is added, it -always- come with new assets for it, that's Blizzard's work, not us, since we are not developers and we can only suggest and being extra specific with suggestions is not the way to go.

That is exactly my point.

You aren't getting Blue Eyed Blood Elves.

Everything up to this point has been met with "That's not High Elven enough". Why would Blizzard do anything else with regards to High Elves if the only option that would make them happy is the one option that would destroy any purpose of factions?

[Garretdejiko]

--- snip ---

[Aldo Hawk]

That is exactly my point.

You aren't getting Blue Eyed Blood Elves.

Everything up to this point has been met with "That's not High Elven enough". Why would Blizzard do anything else with regards to High Elves if the only option that would make them happy is the one option that would destroy any purpose of factions?

Destroy the purposes of factions? What are you on about?

High elves are Alliance, there is not 'purpose of factions' to destroy, it's an existing part of such faction, it's -current- identity. They are already there, is not a faction swap in any given mean since this game has told us that High elves are alliance enough times to consider them Alliance members.

[Ielenia]

You have answered your own questions without regard for the point I had originally asked.

You asked "how to implement them", and I answered "how to implement them", twice already. If that is not what you want to hear, perhaps you should be a little more specific with your question instead of making it vague.

And had a quest line,

And so would the high elves, assuming they're implemented as an allied race and not like a "normal" race (i.e. like the worgen/draenei/goblin/etc)

a purpose behind the skin color change, in addition to hair and other features that Blood Elves do not have access to.

All of that is irrelevant, since those "skin color, hair and other features" can and are available to blood elves, with gameplay limitations being the sole reason why they're not.

The point being, you are not getting Blood Elves with a different eye color.

Good, because we don't want blood elves. We want high elves.

Ignore that fact,

What fact? Especially since Blizzard has said that high elf customization is "possible"?

Instead of making constructive criticisms or suggestions, the majority of the High Elven community have resorted to temper tantrums and literally saying Blizzard is wrong in their own lore.

Perhaps you should remove your bias and look more critically. That's not what the "majority" is doing.

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You aren't getting Blue Eyed Blood Elves.

You're not Blizzard.

[Neverafter]

Destroy the purposes of factions? What are you on about?

High elves are Alliance, there is not 'purpose of factions' to destroy, it's an existing part of such faction, it's -current- identity. They are already there, is not a faction swap in any given mean since this game has told us that High elves are alliance enough times to consider them Alliance members.

The Continuum of Elven Inclusivity

(1)-----(2)-----(3)-----(4)-----(5)-----(6)

As it exists now, we are at a 3. Both factions have a Thalassian Elf model and a Kaldorei Elf Model.

Moving past a 3 begins to diminish the Factions as it pertains to playable races.

High Elves are Alliance. It is an existing part of the faction, it is current, they are there.

It is absolutely a faction swap to give Blue Eyed Blood Elves to the Alliance. There is no other way around it. If "Gimme High Elves" is all you are going to offer, they will never be playable on the Alliance.

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You asked "how to implement them", and I answered "how to implement them", twice already. If that is not what you want to hear, perhaps you should be a little more specific with your question instead of making it vague.

Wrong. I asked how to implement High Elves without being a direct swap of blood elves, giving them lore, context, and visualy distinguishing features. You answered with, gimme.

And so would the high elves, assuming they're implemented as an allied race and not like a "normal" race (i.e. like the worgen/draenei/goblin/etc)

The quest line can't simply be the introduction of the Silver Covenant. There is nothing separating them from Blood Elves. Blood Elves aren't happening on the Alliance.

All of that is irrelevant, since those "skin color, hair and other features" can and are available to blood elves, with gameplay limitations being the sole reason why they're not.

Gameplay, Factions existing, etc.

Good, because we don't want blood elves. We want high elves.

Based on every single available peice of lore, a High Elf is a Blood Elf with Blue Eyes. Perhaps there is a language barrier or something else in effect here. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. How do YOU define a High Elf if it is not a Blood Elf with Blue Eyes?

Perhaps you should remove your bias and look more critically. That's not what the "majority" is doing.

Perhaps you should remove your bias, read what is being presented, and then respond.

You're not Blizzard.

And neither are you. Thankfully we have Ion Hozzikostas who is and has plainly said Blue Eyed Blood Elves aren't happening.

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You're not using the word "trigger" correctly, first of all. Secondly, Blood Elves WERE High Elves, but are no longer. If you don't know that, you shouldn't even be here!

Please try harder to troll in the future please.

Blood Elves were High Elves. They are the continuation of High Elves. They are the legacy of the High Elves. Long live the High Elves of Warcraft, the mighty might Blood Elves.

[Aldo Hawk]

The Continuum of Elven Inclusivity

(1)-----(2)-----(3)-----(4)-----(5)-----(6)

As it exists now, we are at a 3. Both factions have a Thalassian Elf model and a Kaldorei Elf Model.

Moving past a 3 begins to diminish the Factions as it pertains to playable races.

High Elves are Alliance. It is an existing part of the faction, it is current, they are there.

It is absolutely a faction swap to give Blue Eyed Blood Elves to the Alliance. There is no other way around it. If "Gimme High Elves" is all you are going to offer, they will never be playable on the Alliance.

If 'Gimme High Elves' is all you get from here i think you should reconsider some things as you are not on touch with the matter.

There has been already a case of a literal carbon copy race between both factions and nothing happened, and more recently we had versions of former Horde and Alliance race models swapped, and nothing happened.

You can't defeat the purposes of the factions unless you are literally leaving to the player the option of placing his character in whatever faction he decides, which has only happened with Pandaren and not every available race. In this case, a High elf is not a Blood elf and if it gets added it will certainly come with tweaks to it as any existing race that became allied race did by developing on their assets.

Do you know what you mean by saying that this would defeat the purposes of the factions? Because for me that would be the option to place any character in whatever faction while at the same time being able to play with members of the other faction as if they were in mine. THAT'S a defeated faction concept.

[Ielenia]

Wrong. I asked how to implement High Elves without being a direct swap of blood elves, giving them lore, context, and visualy distinguishing features. You answered with, gimme.

No, you just asked how to implement them. And "without being a direct swap of blood elves" and "giving them lore" are moot points since void elves are exactly that. Lore and context? We have both. We have the Silver Covenant and all the high elves that remain sided with the Alliance. Visually distinguishing features? Again, we have void elves and nightborne. That ship has sunk an expansion ago.

The quest line can't simply be the introduction of the Silver Covenant. There is nothing separating them from Blood Elves.

Why not? And we have enough lore to distinguish both, to the point of there having a massive rift between the two groups.

Blood Elves aren't happening on the Alliance.

Thank goodness no one in the pro-high elf community is asking for blood elves in the Alliance. Here's a newsflash for you: one reason why the void elves are so maligned in the pro-high elf community is because they're blood elves and not high elves.

Gameplay, Factions existing, etc.

"Factions existing" is another moot point thanks to the introduction of nightborne and void elves.

Based on every single available peice of lore, a High Elf is a Blood Elf with Blue Eyes.

When you ignore all evidence on the contrary, of course all the evidence you see points to your conclusion. How about the massive rift between the two groups? Their culture differences?

Perhaps there is a language barrier or something else in effect here.

Void elves can actually speak the blood elf language.

How do YOU define a High Elf if it is not a Blood Elf with Blue Eyes?

I define high elves as the elves who still stood by their principles, refusing to drain mana from living beings and demons, stayed on the side of the Light, and still loyal to the Alliance.

Thankfully we have Ion Hozzikostas who is and has plainly said Blue Eyed Blood Elves aren't happening.

Just like Blizzard has been plainly saying vanilla servers "aren't happening" for over a decade, now? Remind me what Blizzard game is currently in 'beta' right now, please?

[Neverafter]

If 'Gimme High Elves' is all you get from here i think you should reconsider some things as you are not on touch with the matter.

There has been already a case of a literal carbon copy race between both factions and nothing happened, and more recently we had versions of former Horde and Alliance race models swapped, and nothing happened.

You can't defeat the purposes of the factions unless you are literally leaving to the player the option of placing his character in whatever faction he decides, which has only happened with Pandaren and not every available race. In this case, a High elf is not a Blood elf and if it gets added it will certainly come with tweaks to it as any existing race that became allied race did by developing on their assets.

Do you know what you mean by saying that this would defeat the purposes of the factions? Because for me that would be the option to place any character in whatever faction while at the same time being able to play with members of the other faction as if they were in mine. THAT'S a defeated faction concept.

Again, the continuum shows that we are only at an Option 3. There was no "literal carbon copy" between both factions. There were alterations, additions, and changes enough to not cross any factional divide.

What you are asking is tantamount to making Blood Elves neutral. You say "a High Elf is not a Blood elf and if it gets added it will certainly come with tweaks to it as any existing race that became allied race did by developing on their assets." That is my entire point. Thus far, no suggestion has been made.

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[QUOTE=Ielenia;51253790]No, you just asked how to implement them. And "without being a direct swap of blood elves" and "giving them lore" are moot points since void elves are exactly that. Lore and context? We have both. We have the Silver Covenant and all the high elves that remain sided with the Alliance. Visually distinguishing features? Again, we have void elves and nightborne. That ship has sunk an expansion ago.[quote]
They are not moot points and I have already told you repeatedly why. You simply choose to ignore any facts that don't align with your opinion.

And Void Elves and Nighbourne are visually distinct.

Why not? And we have enough lore to distinguish both, to the point of there having a massive rift between the two groups.

Because that is a Blood Elf.

Thank goodness no one in the pro-high elf community is asking for blood elves in the Alliance. Here's a newsflash for you: one reason why the void elves are so maligned in the pro-high elf community is because they're blood elves and not high elves.

Wrong again. That is exactly what the pro-high elves are asking.

"Factions existing" is another moot point thanks to the introduction of nightborne and void elves.

Wrong again. See above. They are distinct.

When you ignore all evidence on the contrary, of course all the evidence you see points to your conclusion. How about the massive rift between the two groups? Their culture differences?

The only person ignoring lore is you. The massive rift between the two groups. One group is Alliance, one is Horde. All other issues have dissolved and resolved with the Sunwell. Cultural differences are hardly enough to make a viable race, especially when any differences are minimal.

Void elves can actually speak the blood elf language.

I was referring to you, yourself, as having a language barrier.

I define high elves as the elves who still stood by their principles, refusing to drain mana from living beings and demons, stayed on the side of the Light, and still loyal to the Alliance.

Ok. This is a start. The blood elves used to drain mana from living beings and demons. That is no longer the case following the Sunwell. Problem solved.
Blood Elves never gave up the light. Some resorted to draining from a Naaru, but they remained Paladins and Priests. As far as that goes, the Silver Covenant is viewed more Arcane than Light based, so that point is moot. So the only defining characteristic left is the whole point of all of this, they have remained loyal to the Alliance. That's it.

Just like Blizzard has been plainly saying vanilla servers "aren't happening" for over a decade, now? Remind me what Blizzard game is currently in 'beta' right now, please?

Wow Classic. They decided their was enough of a market to potentially be profitable to produce a classic experience for a game they produced in the past.

That is in no way similar to the discussion at hand. "But Blizzard changed their mind". Yea. Good people do. There is a difference in changing your mind and making a product, and abandoning lore and precedence, and giving 1 race to 2 factions.

[Ielenia]

They are not moot points and I have already told you repeatedly why. You simply choose to ignore any facts that don't align with your opinion.

And Void Elves and Nighbourne are visually distinct.

They are moot. Simple as that, and I explained why. And void elves and nightborne being "visually distinct" is also a moot point because we have a game in where 90% of the armor graphics cover their entire body. Making one elf skin purple while the other light-skinned means zero when they still share the exact same silhouette and animations. You will not distinguish a void elf from a blood elf, or a night elf from a nightborne, before their health/name/outline colors clue you in as to which race they are.

Because that is a Blood Elf.

In one side of that rift are the blood elves. On the other side, are the high elves.

Wrong again. That is exactly what the pro-high elves are asking.

No, that's just what your strawman of the pro-high elf community is asking for. Seriously, you're playing dumb by now, if you really think void elves were "exactly" what the pro-high elf community has been asking for.

Wrong again. See above. They are distinct.

Not in any meaningful way. Skin color means absolute nada when 90% of the armor in the game covers 90% of your character's body. The only thing that really matters in terms of visual distinctiveness for "faction identity" is silhouettes, and those have been spread around already, thanks to nightborne and void elves.

The only person ignoring lore is you. The massive rift between the two groups. One group is Alliance, one is Horde. All other issues have dissolved and resolved with the Sunwell. Cultural differences are hardly enough to make a viable race, especially when any differences are minimal.

No, they haven't. The blood elves are still the more "reckless" elves, whereas the high elves are still the "cautious/conservative" elves.

Ok. This is a start. The blood elves used to drain mana from living beings and demons. That is no longer the case following the Sunwell. Problem solved.

No, it's not "solved". The issue remains because it shows that the blood elves differ heavily from the high elves as they'll seek reckless means of survival, to the point of abandoning all their principles.

Blood Elves never gave up the light. Some resorted to draining from a Naaru, but they remained Paladins and Priests.

They gave up on the Light. They decided that the Light had forsaken them for allowing such a massacre at their own homeland. They decided not only to stop serving the light, but also enslave the light. Remember that they were all too willing to enslave and torture a Naaru. There were still paladins and priests, but they were the slavers of the Light, not its servants.

As far as that goes, the Silver Covenant is viewed more Arcane than Light based, so that point is moot.

Ah... what? "More arcane based than Light based"? Where did that nonsense came from?

Wow Classic.

Thank you. You've proven my point.

That is in no way similar to the discussion at hand.

They're more than simply similar: they're the exact same, because you're saying that just because Blizzard is saying "no" now and have been saying "no" for a decade, that means it's "not happening", i.e. won't ever happen. And yet, until last Blizzcon, the exact same thing could be said about WoW Classic.

There is a difference in changing your mind and making a product, and abandoning lore and precedence, and giving 1 race to 2 factions.

Remember you're talking about a company that has done some massive retcons in the lore. The biggest that come to mind is the entire Onyxia quest line.

On top of that: there is no "ignoring lore and precedence", as explained earlier. For lore, high elves already exist, and are already part of the Alliance. All that is left to do is making them playable. As for "ignoring precedence", on the contrary: the void elf and nightborne races actually set the precedent that allows the introduction of high elves.

[Aldo Hawk]

@Neverafter You keep stating that adding HE would be against current lore, that HE are simply blue eyed Blood elves and that this is about making Blood elves neutral...

Since you are maintaining those assumptions and still trying to come here pretending to be some kind of judge or arbiter in a condescending manner i don't have anything else to add, please, get more on touch with what is being discussed since you are not demonstrating it.

You are not a wow developer and you cannot assume what they do or what they think solely based on what they have added or didn't added in the game because you think that means whatever you think it means. Surely you think that not any of them will look at your 'continuum' ever so you simply made it because you felt so. It's, at least, biased not only with your assumptions with what the developers have their minds on but also with what you think about the HE request.

[LawdArthas]

A question to the helfers, how would you introduce high elfs without taking away from the uniqueness of blood elfs? This is a genuine question, and I'm hoping for a genuine answer. Please don't use the "but Pandarens" as an answer. They were introduced as neutral. In the case of high/blood elves, we're discussing a topic that effectively makes the high elven race neutral. Which to me is unfair to the Horde.

Here is my take on how the high elves take away from blood elven identity:

1) Blood elves are the redefinition of what a high elf on Azeroth is. Their introduction in TBC was clear that the high elven story continued on through blood elves. Adding playable high elves to me blurs the definition of what "high elves" are. Most players associate blood elves as the high elves of WoW. Even lead WoW developers have acknowledged this. I saw a few pages back someone sharing a quote from Chris Metzen that blood elves are the high elves of WoW. So ultimately, although a small group of high elves are affiliated with the Alliance and call themselves the high elves, they aren't the legacy of high elven society.. the blood elves are. And it would be unfair to blur this definition by making high elves more focal by making them an AR.

2) Apart from political views (Horde or Alliance), what differences are there between the two groups? The OP on this thread and on the official forums seems to focus on a woodland elf thematic. Again, to me this detracts from blood elven identity, and to a degree night elven. The farstriders are a group of rangers predominantly belonging to the blood elves, and we know in game that there are references of the blood elven farstriders having a connection to nature and feeling at home in the forests and finding allies in the wilderness.

This is from the quest 'Seek the Farstriders': <name>, it is good you have come. Our list of allies grows thin, and even those who share our cause are not completely trusted. It is because of this that we, the rangers, turn to nature for aid. In the allies of the forest we find a deep bond that does not know deceit.

This sounds like a woodland elf to me. So woodland elves are already manifested via the blood elves, and if anything the woodland theme should be further portrayed through the blood elven farstriders, not the Alliance high elf rangers in highvale who are a significantly smaller group than the farstriders. The book Tides of Darkness also talks about the farstriders being intimately bound to the wildlands.

The only other identity we see from Alliance high elves is magi. But again, the blood elves already fill that fantasy so high elves would bring nothing new but double down on the elven ranger or elven magi theme. Also, the high elves of Dalaran share the exact same history as the Sunreavers. I see people focusing on how some high elves have been living in Dalaran for 2000 years, but so have the blood elven Sunreavers. So again, what distinction is there between the SC and the Sunreavers? Both are high elven groups who have lived in Dalaran for a long time, and have a heavy focus on Magic.

Some talk about high elf paladins. But again, the whole concept of elven paladins began with the blood knights, who are blood elves. So this is another feature unique to blood elves that high elves would detract from.

Blood elves and high elves are biologically the same, have the same thematics, share 99% of the same culture, history and lore (apart from the last decade or so, which is miniscule when compared to their longevity). So back to my opening question, how do you introduce high elves without blurring faction lines and detracting from the blood elves in so many ways?

[Ielenia]

1) Blood elves are the redefinition of what a high elf on Azeroth is. Their introduction in TBC was clear that the high elven story continued on through blood elves. Adding playable high elves to me blurs the definition of what "high elves" are. Most players associate blood elves as the high elves of WoW. Even lead WoW developers have acknowledged this. I saw a few pages back someone sharing a quote from Chris Metzen that blood elves are the high elves of WoW. So ultimately, although a small group of high elves are affiliated with the Alliance and call themselves the high elves, they aren't the legacy of high elven society.. the blood elves are. And it would be unfair to blur this definition by making high elves more focal by making them an AR.

You wrote a lot there, but you never explained how the addition of playable high elves to the Alliance would "blur the definition" of 'high elf'.

2) Apart from political views (Horde or Alliance), what differences are there between the two groups? The OP on this thread and on the official forums seems to focus on a woodland elf thematic. Again, to me this detracts from blood elven identity, and to a degree night elven. The farstriders are a group of rangers predominantly belonging to the blood elves, and we know in game that there are references of the blood elven farstriders having a connection to nature and feeling at home in the forests and finding allies in the wilderness.

There is their culture, or in the case of blood elves, their new culture. Blood elves will do anything to survive, to the point of draining mana from living beings, and enslaving a Naaru to forcibly enslave the power of the Light. That's something high elves would not do, for one.

The only other identity we see from Alliance high elves is magi. But again, the blood elves already fill that fantasy

Troll druids already fill the "troll druid" fantasy, so why can Zandalari be druids? Human mages already fill the "human mage" fantasy, so why can Kul'tirans be mages?

Some talk about high elf paladins. But again, the whole concept of elven paladins began with the blood knights, who are blood elves. So this is another feature unique to blood elves that high elves would detract from.

Huh? What you wrote that doesn't make sense. "Paladins" are not something "unique" to blood elves. Just because blood elves can be paladins doesn't mean that other elven races cannot be paladins. That's like saying that "human mages" are unique to humans, but we have Kul'tiran mages.

Even then, the "blood knights" and "high elf paladins" would have completely different lore, considering the blood knights were born out of the enslavement, torture and experimentation of a captured Naaru. I doubt high elf paladins (if playable high elves are allowed to be paladins) would follow the same lore.

So back to my opening question, how do you introduce high elves without blurring faction lines and detracting from the blood elves in so many ways?

Nothing would be "detracted" from the blood elves. Everything a blood elf is will remain unchanged. You would have a point about "detracting from blood elves" if high elves did not exist in the world. But they do exist. And are quite prominent considering they're called a race people claim is "near extinction".

Not a single piece of lore is being asked to be changed, other than the Alliance "officially recognizing" the high elves to make them a playable race.

[LawdArthas]

You wrote a lot there, but you never explained how the addition of playable high elves to the Alliance would "blur the definition" of 'high elf'.

So no genuine answer? Just a troll response.

Blood elves are the definition of the high elven fantasy in the Warcraft universe. Making alliance high elves playable would detract from the already playable Horde high elven group who are known as the blood elves. It would dull their uniqueness, it would blur the definition of what high elves are and what they've become. All this, simply because of a small group of elves who chose the Alliance. High elves are not a significant force, they are not a major society. They are a dwindling group, and shouldn't further impede on the definition of "high elves". Making them playable would suggest that they're either thriving or moving forward in the world of Azeroth, but we know from countless in and out of game references that this is not the case. They're assimilating into human culture, they're losing their identity. They're dwindling. They have no real culture or direction, and simply are a small group following their human allies. Why blur the high elven identity, which is blood elves, with a dwindling group? Create a blood elf and you'll see that they are the next chapter of the high elf story. The story has moved forward via blood elves, and I don't think it fair for this small group of Alliance high elves to blur that story.

There is their culture, or in the case of blood elves, their new culture. Blood elves will do anything to survive, to the point of draining mana from living beings, and enslaving a Naaru to forcibly enslave the power of the Light. That's something high elves would not do, for one.

Again, Alleria says hi.

To some, Alleria is the pinnacle of what it means to be a high elf. Yet she's dabbled in dangerous magics and she's absorbed a fallen Naaru. Does that resemble your description of Blood Elves to some degree? Yes. High elves are not as different from blood elves as you may like to believe.

[Aldo Hawk]

Some talk about high elf paladins. But again, the whole concept of elven paladins began with the blood knights, who are blood elves. So this is another feature unique to blood elves that high elves would detract from.

High elves (before the scourge invasion) had genuine belief on the light, until they felt betrayed by it and started enslaving a naaru and later on drawing their powers from the Sunwell. That is not the case for High elves since they still maintain their old ways.

A High elf Paladin is exactly the same kind of Paladin as human and dwarf ones. They didn't enslave a Naaru, they don't get their powers from the light-infused Sunwell, those were, and are the Blood Knights, High elves share the same culture about the light as humans and dwarves.

Simply put. Blood knights were formed -after- the scourge invasion. Before that, High elves believed in the light and those who separated/were separated from Silvermoon, rejects the horde and the ways of their old brethren, and still maintain the name High elf, are still Paladins and Priests who believe in the light.

Also, Chris Metzen referred to Blood elves as 'our' High elves making reference as to what a High elf is pertaining various fantasy worlds. And, after that, he explained what would be their own spin on them. And since they still added (and added non blood elf NPCs before) High elves as a separate people from the Blood elves... It cannot by any logic mean that Blood elves have replaced what a High elf is in the world of warcraft, since they still exist.

Blood elves still are Blood elves in all it's wholeness to this day while High elves have already appeared and that didn't damaged the Blood elves in any way, why do you think that making them playable would damage their identity? It's an existing group. That's why Pandaren are brought up, because they have -zero- (0) differences between them, while a High elf allied race would with 100% certainty by linear logic develop on those differences as any pre-existing race that became playable did.

I hope you felt satisfied by at least one of the explanations i displayed.

[Ielenia]

So no genuine answer? Just a troll response.

I would be careful when using that word. Especially how you disregard over half my post to simply say "you got no answer". Which, again, is false.

Blood elves are the definition of the high elven fantasy in the Warcraft universe. Making alliance high elves playable would detract from the already playable Horde high elven group who are known as the blood elves. It would dull their uniqueness, it would blur the definition of what high elves are and what they've become.

It would not. You would have a point if a group called "high elves" did not already exist in the game. But they do. And they existed since vanilla day one. High elves exist, so do they lore. They are a separate group from blood elves, and even have reasons to join the Alliance.

All this, simply because of a small group of elves who chose the Alliance.

A group, mind you, that is highly likely to be bigger than the group of blood elves that were kicked out of Silvermoon for dealing with the void.

They are a dwindling group, and shouldn't further impede on the definition of "high elves".

They are high elves. Blood elves are now blood elves. Anything the word "high elf" means now are the thalassian elves that decided to stay with the Alliance and refused to follow Kael'Thas' teachings to extract mana from living beings.

Making them playable would suggest that they're either thriving or moving forward in the world of Azeroth,

And that would be a bad thing... why, again?

but we know from countless in and out of game references that this is not the case.

In-game references? Please, show me some of those.

They're assimilating into human culture,

You do realize that, assuming that is true, you just gave further examples of the differentiation between blood elves and high elves, culturally-speaking?

They have no real culture or direction,

They have their culture, and direction can be given. They can be given a new purpose.

Why blur the high elven identity, which is blood elves, with a dwindling group?

There is no "blurring". High elves already exist, and have existed since forever. Nothing would be changed in terms of lore for the blood elves. Even better: every new story development would give the blood elves more uniqueness. Hell, they already have, being avid practitioners of blood/anima magic.

Create a blood elf and you'll see that they are the next chapter of the high elf story.

Not quite. They are a different chapter. Not exactly "next chapter". They're a branching path, not the next step. To say they're the "next chapter" implies there is no more potential development in the "previous chapter", which is false.

Again, Alleria says hi.

I don't recall Alleria ever "capturing and enslaving a naaru, torturing it to gain its power" or "destroying innocent living beings for the sake of their nourishment."

[FlubberPuddy]

The story has moved forward via blood elves, and I don't think it fair for this small group of Alliance high elves to blur that story.

This portion really doesn't make sense. A lot of what you say doesn't, but I wanted to focus on this in particular.

When the High Elf and Blood Elf split occurred, High Elves stopped being part of what the Blood Elf story moved toward. High Elves go onto having a different tangent. This doesn't do any "blurring" because everything the Blood Elves are doing - from a renewed Sunwell (not taking Light by force anymore), to utilizing Anima, to doing whatever it takes to survive - are all things specific to Blood Elves.

High Elves don't step on the toes of any of that. Unless you can show me that the High Elves in Alliance are utilizing the Blood Elf story beats, this "blurring" isn't occurring nor can occur. What does it even mean to "blur that story"? How does a playable High Elf blur that?

High Elves have a different culture and different direction than their Blood Elf brethren.

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The "high elven identity" bit is weird too. What is "high elven identity" even mean when we have developers saying "Blood Elves kinda are High Elves" and "Void Elves are another flavor of High Elves"? Both of these groups are also high elves so what is "high elven identity"?

It's like how there's 3 humans on the Alliance. What is the "human identity", is it Stormwindian, Kul Tiran, or Gilnean? Those are all humans, which one is the "human identity"?

[Neverafter]

First, if I am coming off condescending, I do apologize. That is not my intentions. I have stated several times, I support a High Elf option and I am sympathetic to this cause. I am simply trying to point out where I feel the strongest weaknesses are in these arguments for the Pro High Elf community.

As for the "Blue Eyed Blood Elf" comments, as I have said previously, thus far, in game, in lore, in every respect, that is what a High Elf is. Simply stating you want a High Elf to anyone outside of your community is read as you want Blood Elves. It has been stated several times that isn't what the High Elf community wants, but at no point has anyone explained what difference a High Elf would have as opposed to Blood Elves, even after being asked several times to define a High Elf without Blood Elves with regard to implementation. Any potential compromises or additions have been summarily shot down as "not what we asked for" or "not High Elven" enough. This begs the question, that I have asked repeatedly, what would be enough. If "Blue Eyed Blood Elves" aren't what you want, High Elven options, whether through Void Elves or some other method should be welcomed and encouraged.

The continuum was supposed to show how these requests are being viewed in the community, one extreme to another. The further you go, the harder the pushback is going to be. It was also supposed to give a visual representation as to the requests of the community. Like a rubberband, if it is stretched too far, it breaks. This is the fear of the Anti High Elfs. (Most) everyone here loves this game, or their wouldn't be such passion from both sides.

I am not a WoW Developer. Chances are no one in this discussion is. That is why we can only use their own words. Dismissing them as wrong because there have been minor retcons or changes in the past doesn't do the Pro High Elf community any favors. Like it or not, Ion has said Lightskinned Blue Eyed Elves are on the Horde. Ok. We still want High Elves. The developers have said not to give up hope and such. If you view Void Elves as a compromise and not the end of possible High Elven Alliance options, there are still opportunities. We aren't developers, but we can brainstorm potential solutions. As long as the Pro High Elf community continues to attack and ostracize anyone who doesn't keep with the mantra "High Elves or Nothing", sadly, nothing is what you will probably get.

[ddi2]

You are right on the first part. In game, these terms, for the most part, are not used interchangeably. Once a Void Elf has become a Void Elf, they will identify themselves as a Void Elf, because as a gameplay component, they are now a Void Elf. We as players however, know their lore and history, and know that they are a splinter faction of the Blood Elves, which themselves came from High Elves. There is even indications, though none explicit enough for some readers, that Void Elves are allowing other elves to study and potentially become Void Elves, including High Elves that have remained loyal to the Alliance.

It's not a gameplay component at all, in the lore itself "Blood Elf", "High Elf" and "Void Elf" are not used interchangeably as well. There are quest lines and cinematics where Blood Elves and High Elves were specifically told to be different groups hence it is part of the lore. If you want to find a word that refers to all three, you can call them Thalassian Elves.

As for being obtuse, I have to disagree. I have plainly and clearly laid out the facts of the game.

Obviously, you don't base your facts of the game from the game.

I have payed attention to the topic. Evidently the purpose of this thought experiment has alluded you.

It is easy to talk about hypotheticals and abstract ideas. "I want to play a High Elf". That is fine. That is a perfectly reasonable request to make, just as much as any other race or class or any other suggestion.

The problem is in the details. You say "Ultimately it doesn't matter". I and many others big to differ. It absolutely matters, and that is why I brought up the continuum. Based on your own words, it sounds like you would place yourself somewhere between a 5 and 6. You would not be happy with Void Elves receiving more options, even though the lore is and could be made to fit such an option.

The problem is, however, that with Void Elves having already been introduced and not "High Elven Enough" but much of the community, the question has to be asked, what would suffice? What would make the High Elven community happy? Simply stating playable High Elves completely misses the point that in lore, in game, and for all intents and purposes, that equates to copy and pasting a Horde race to the Alliance. That is the most extreme end of the continuum for a reason. The other end being elves would never exist, something we can observe in the game to have already been broken.

This also speaks to the "Faction Diversity" point. That is a term that, to my knowledge, has not been defined by Blizzard and thus players are using their own interpretations. For this continuum, Blizzard had been at a 2 previously. Each faction had distinct elves. With BFA, they moved to a 3, now each faction had the distinct elves they had before, as well as a version of the distinct elves of the other faction. Many players are apprehensive and some outright hostile to moving past a 3 at all. The further someone moves past Option 3, the more hostile people become.

You can argue that players wanted High Elves and not Void Elves. That is a perfectly reasonable statement and I am sure has been made several times already. The problem is, Blizzard likes to make decisions conservatively. Once something is made available to players, it is much more difficult to pull back. Even in 8.2, they are loosening the rules that have been placed on Transmog since its inception. Void Elves were Blizzard's first attempt at giving players a version of High Elves, but still remained distinct from Blood Elves. A large portion of the audience, as this thread can speak to, has rejected Void Elves as not "High Elven enough".

Again, I ask what would be enough? If someone can come up with a viable Option 5 that does more than give Void Elves more customization options but does not go so far as copy and pasting Blood Elves to the Alliance, I am all ears. This is meant to attempt to take the abstract ideas and accusations and bring them down to something we can all visualize.

"Ultimately it doesn't matter" means that personally me and many others don't care how High Elves are implemented as long as their implementation is true to High Elf lore as it stands now in the game.

As for your question about if Void Elfs are not enough what is enough then, this is where you show your ignorance about the topic which in turn makes your knowing tone condescending and your questionnaire ridiculous. Because people have been posting the suggestions for how to implement High Elves for them to be still High Elves and not Blood Elves with blue eyes for a loong time already, and these suggestions include huge write-ups, loads of art, 3D model, etc., many of which you wouldn't just find by reading the High Elf threads but just clicking on the opening post of this megathread, or go to official Blizzard forums and read the opening post there where many of the arts, write-ups, models are collected. You can also simply search in Google, Youtube, Reddit, 4chan, you'll find this information literally everywhere. Asking here on page 555 how High Elf fans would want High Elves to be implemented means that no, you did not pay attention to the topic at all and it's also disrespectful to the people that did a colossal work that answered your question a long time before you asked it.

[Neverafter]

"Ultimately it doesn't matter" means that personally me and many others don't care how High Elves are implemented as long as their implementation is true to High Elf lore as it stands now in the game.

As for your question about if Void Elfs are not enough what is enough then, this is where you show your ignorance about the topic which in turn makes your knowing tone condescending and your questionnaire ridiculous. Because people have been posting the suggestions for how to implement High Elves for them to be still High Elves and not Blood Elves with blue eyes for a loong time already, and these suggestions include huge write-ups, loads of art, 3D model, etc., many of which you wouldn't just find by reading the High Elf threads but just clicking on the opening post of this megathread, or go to official Blizzard forums and read the opening post there where many of the arts, write-ups, models are collected. You can also simply search in Google, Youtube, Reddit, 4chan, you'll find this information literally everywhere. Asking here on page 555 how High Elf fans would want High Elves to be implemented means that no, you did not pay attention to the topic at all and it's also disrespectful to the people that did a colossal work that answered your question a long time before you asked it.

I'm not addressing the other points in your post because I'm not responding to personal attacks or name calling. We simply disagree on a very minor point in the overall scheme of things.

If the question regarding High Elves had been answered, this thread would have ended hundreds of pages ago. Unfortunately, tattoos, feathers, sea farring Thalassian Elves, and any other recommendation that I have seen ultimately fails to either remain true to High Elven lore, be separate from Blood Elves. The implementation cannot just simply be hand waved away. I have even offered examples to show how this could be done. Sorry if I come off condescending to you, but given the attitude of the Pro High Elf community, I can't help but be defensive. I want High Elven options on the Alliance.

Ultimately, the future of High Elves comes down to 2 possible paths.
1). Void Elves are given a questline that sees High Elves fully embracing the Void along with Void Elves leading to Void Elves having High Elven customization options.
2). A group of High Elves, whether it be Silver Covenant (The most likely and most numerous and well known group of remaining High Elves) or some other fully committing to the Alliance and being inducted into the Alliance as full members.

The problem with the first scenerio is many have already dismissed it as not being what they want, not being High Elven enough, or have some other reason for not liking it. Given Blizzard's conservative nature, it is more likely than the second scenario. It also avoids a major problem with scenario 2. That is, in scenario 2, if the Alliance is given a new race, what race would the Horde get? Especially if Allied Races are planned for an eventual retirement or at least not used to the extent they have been in BFA. Furthermore, their is the question of models and depiction in game. Silver Covenant are not shown to have tattoos, wear extravagant feathered headdresses, etc. Even if that were the case, it would still be a weak implementation. This would also increase the number of elven races and potentially diminish any future contributions the Void Elves may have had. Giving Void Elves High Elven options would make sense within the lore and avoid the pitfalls of a new race all together.

If instead, there was some further alteration to those Silver Covenant members, embracing the Light being the most likely, but maybe there is another cosmic force they could reach out to and become affiliated with. There hasn't been enough time for any sort of physical differences between Blood and High Elves. Void Elves were blasted and changed immediately, Nightborne took thousands of years. Without some other cosmic force being involved, there remains no difference between Blood and High Elves.

So please, keep the condescension and name calling to a minimum.

[FlubberPuddy]

If the question regarding High Elves had been answered, this thread would have ended hundreds of pages ago.

No, because the one who's going to answer that question to put an end to this discussion would be Blizzard themselves. Seeing as their recent spiel on the topic was encouragement to continue it, it's still something to be discussed.

If people themselves feel like this topic is done and over with, they're obviously free to not hang around after stating so. Anyone who continually comes back to the topic has some semblance this topic isn't over and is why they're either returning to defend it or break it down.

Ultimately, the future of High Elves comes down to 2 possible paths.
1). Void Elves are given a questline that sees High Elves fully embracing the Void along with Void Elves leading to Void Elves having High Elven customization options.
2). A group of High Elves, whether it be Silver Covenant (The most likely and most numerous and well known group of remaining High Elves) or some other fully committing to the Alliance and being inducted into the Alliance as full members.

The problem with the first scenerio is many have already dismissed it as not being what they want, not being High Elven enough, or have some other reason for not liking it. Given Blizzard's conservative nature, it is more likely than the second scenario. It also avoids a major problem with scenario 2. That is, in scenario 2, if the Alliance is given a new race, what race would the Horde get? Especially if Allied Races are planned for an eventual retirement or at least not used to the extent they have been in BFA. Furthermore, their is the question of models and depiction in game. Silver Covenant are not shown to have tattoos, wear extravagant feathered headdresses, etc. Even if that were the case, it would still be a weak implementation. This would also increase the number of elven races and potentially diminish any future contributions the Void Elves may have had. Giving Void Elves High Elven options would make sense within the lore and avoid the pitfalls of a new race all together.

Yes, many High Elf fans don't like the first scenario because it shoehorns in two distinct groups that are not following the same direction at all, Void Elves are 90% similar to Blood Elves in terms of culture, disposition, and "majestic" aesthetics - they just utilize the Void instead of the Light. Their personality still rings true to Blood Elves more than High Elves.

Also just because a scenario is suggested by Blizzard themselves, it doesn't mean the players must accept it or that it's inevitable. Blizzard, when all the Nostalrius stuff was happening came out with a post about implementing "Pristine Servers", their idea of "old-school WoW", and that was met with a lot of negative feedback. A suggestion =/= this is how it'll be implemented.

Since we know a lot of High Elf fans don't want the first suggestion, then it's information that Blizzard can now work with (among all the information being provided on this topic overall).

And you're doing something else others come in and do but don't apply to other AR threads, why ask us what the Horde gets? No one here gives a shit what the Horde gets, Horde players can think up what a pair would be for if Alliance got High Elves. This isn't the responsibility of people requesting an Allied Race, that's Blizzard's repsonsibility.

Dark Irons weren't shown to wear tattoos either, nor have flame-wicked beards. They got those when they became an Allied Race. An NPC model =/= how the Allied Race model will look. If it were the case the Nightborne wouldn't be having the faces they do, nor the black and blonde hair options they have available either.

As for decreasing Void Elf contribution, they've barely had any in the first place. They'll most likely only ever be used for Void related things, this wouldn't conflict with the matters the High Elves would be dealing with since Void is the specialty of Void Elves. Also do you feel the same way for how Lightforged aren't used in BFA? Blizzard recently came out and said that there's just too many stories to tell so they're not always going to be able to tell every race's or character's story.

High Elves on Alliance have had more story beats than some of the playable races, they had more story to them than Draenei before WoD, and had more story to them than Gnomes until Mechagon. Blizzard sure did spend a lot of resources into giving a non-playable race its limelight.

If instead, there was some further alteration to those Silver Covenant members, embracing the Light being the most likely, but maybe there is another cosmic force they could reach out to and become affiliated with. There hasn't been enough time for any sort of physical differences between Blood and High Elves. Void Elves were blasted and changed immediately, Nightborne took thousands of years. Without some other cosmic force being involved, there remains no difference between Blood and High Elves.

I don't think there has to be any cosmic force involved, High Elves are shown to not be as reliant on magic as their Blood Elf and Void Elf counterparts: The Silver Covenant is mainly depicted as Rangers, there's a group of "Highvale Elves" who have completely given up magic outright. If anything, High Elves give you the "vanilla elf" option to play separate from their Void based and Light based counterparts. Just as "Humans" are the vanilla human and then you can play either a fat human or a cursed human or a dead human as their counterparts.

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As for the "Blue Eyed Blood Elf" comments, as I have said previously, thus far, in game, in lore, in every respect, that is what a High Elf is. Simply stating you want a High Elf to anyone outside of your community is read as you want Blood Elves.

And Blizzard themselves believed this as well, which is why Alliance literally got "Blue Eyed Blood Elves" in the form of Void Elves, who have Blue Eyes and are former Blood Elves. The hope here is that all the artwork/discussion etc after the fact of Void Elf release is showing Blizzard "hey, you guys severely missed point. this is what we've been asking for."

It has been stated several times that isn't what the High Elf community wants, but at no point has anyone explained what difference a High Elf would have as opposed to Blood Elves, even after being asked several times to define a High Elf without Blood Elves with regard to implementation.

It's been stated countless times the differences, you either refuse to acknowledge what's been said or haven't read what's been said. Take the time and read, it's not anyone's responsibility to continually have newcomers to the conversation be shown what's already been discussed to death.