1. #10501
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    this not a notable physical difference, cause the change it not actually in the eyes, but in the glow of the eye, related to the magic they are using or being affected by, as per lore say even high elves that stay too much time in quel'thalas would have the same glow
    So, a physical difference caused by a cultural difference is to be ignored because you say so?

    BY the concept of "race" you are trying to push, worgen and humans are the same race. Worgen are humans, they even breed human children. However, they are a different "race" for gameplay purposes because they have a curse that allows them to turn into wolf humanoids and back.
    Not a native english speaker, so pardon my typos and grammar errors.

  2. #10502
    Immortal Syegfryed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Again, who is saying they aren't the same race?
    literally the other guy say blood elves are not high elves

    they are, end of the history.
    Being the same race doesn't preclude you from becoming a playable option. If this was true we wouldn't have the AR system in the first place.
    it does actually, all allied races are tagged as different races by blizzard, not even just "subraces"

    Of course you don't want to "dig in the rabbit hole" because you know you'll be proven wrong just like what I'm about to ask you right now
    no, i don't want because i don't like spinning in the same circle of you guys denying the truth all the time, is tiresome and i have better things to do

    you do not proof anyone wrong, maybe in your head to think you did, but thats it.
    You say comparing Mag'har Orc to Green Orc or Tauren to Highmountain is wrong? Why is it wrong?
    i literally said why is wrong, in a easy way that even you guys can understand, well, i can't do much by now
    Are you telling me that Mag'har Orc and Green Orc are NOT the same race, they both are NOT Orcs? Answer this question, I really want to see your answer to this bolded portion.
    Stop trying to distort things, they are not the same race of orcs, but a different race of orc

    meanwhile a warsong orc and a frostwolf orc are the same race of orc, same with high elves and blood elves same race of elf

    Orcs and dwarves and others are genre, not specie/race, its not hard to grasp

    But you'd consider a human with dark skin vs a human with light skin a different race then? Because that's practically what you're saying lol.
    Race in the real world its another point of discussion and its taboo, i don't want to dig into this to not derail the topic neither have the mods to close it.
    "races" in WoW aren't actual races, they're more "ethnicities".
    no, they are more "species", race its just the generic fantasy setting.

    And that child is referred to as a "Half-Elf" because he actually had different racial parents: A Human father and Elf mother.
    you simple didn't understand the point and try to respond

    The only person's logic being poor here is yours. No wonder you'd like to have Ogres be playable one day. I hope they are too, for your sake.
    there is no correlation and you are use trying to dismiss what i say, its hilarious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    So, a physical difference caused by a cultural difference is to be ignored because you say so?
    its not a physical difference neither is caused by a cultural difference

    you are just making things up
    BY the concept of "race" you are trying to push, worgen and humans are the same race.
    nop im not, you are trying to distort my words trying to prove an invalid point

    Worgen are humans, they even breed human children. However, they are a different "race" for gameplay purposes because they have a curse that allows them to turn into wolf humanoids and back.
    Again with the false equivalence, when one falls you drag another

    i will not wait until you bring undeads
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2019-05-06 at 01:32 AM.

  3. #10503
    Warchief FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    This is the Syegfryed respose to my "Are you telling me that Mag'har Orc and Green Orc are NOT the same race, they both are NOT Orcs?" question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they are not the same race of orcs, but a different race of orc
    Thanks dude, this is all I needed.

  4. #10504
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    This is the Syegfryed respose to my "Are you telling me that Mag'har Orc and Green Orc are NOT the same race, they both are NOT Orcs?" question.



    Thanks dude, this is all I needed.
    Nice rhetoric, i did miss those HE threads, always good laugh

    go on, continue to show that you do not have any knowledge about biology, its pretty funny

  5. #10505
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    go on, continue to show that you do not have any knowledge about biology, its pretty funny
    Since when biology matters in a world where beings of stone evolved into flesh?
    Also, by using biology as argument, you end up with my worgen counter-argument. Worgen are biologically humans.

    (Also, strictly speaking in biological terms, races do not exist)
    Not a native english speaker, so pardon my typos and grammar errors.

  6. #10506
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Yeah, because suddenly there are thousands of exiles interested in being dipped into void juice and risk corruption. Including civilian population like bakers or smiths, and soldiers like rangers or warriors, who never had a lot of interest in arcane but suddenly are itching to be infused with the most dangerous type of magic ever until their skin turns blue and their thoughts are not their own anymore.

    And they'll all live in some tents in a rock in space.

    But there's too few high elves. Makes sense.
    As opposed to the thousands of HE's that some believe to exist?

    It's not that hard of a stretch to make. Not to sound condescending but a small group + a small group + a small group = a bigger group. Small groups being BE's curious/interested in the void, HE's curious/interested in the void, and those that have already undergone said transformation.

    And continuing with my theory that seems to have panned out thus far considering the dev response that more VE's are possibly being made. Who's to say some villainous and prominent VE in a moment of weakness attempts to turn a large portion of Elves in the future, thus further establishing the risks of toying with the void an it's voices? And potentially more importantly establishes a new grey/villainous character in the Alliance again.

    And considering the portal to the Rift is in Stormwind, I'm sure it's safe to assume they live in the city and actually not Telogrus Rift. The Rift in all likelihood is a place for training and conversion away from prying eyes.
    At times, the frequent redundancy and stupidity of these forums, turns me into an argumentative ass.

    To most of you, I apologize in advance. I will attempt to be nicer.

    To the High Elfers out there... If it doesn't workout how you believe/want don't try to paint Blizzard as the bad guy for your own hype building.

  7. #10507
    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    As opposed to the thousands of HE's that some believe to exist?
    There's 1 high elf per 9 blood elves.
    So, you choose, either there are thousands of high elves or the blood elves are less than 9,000, barely enough to fill a large town.
    For void elves to surpass high elves, you'd need a big exodus of blood elves.

    Kael'thas forces in Outland numbered 15% of the blood elves, including the Scryers. High elves number 4/5, or 80%, as many as that. And, according to Vargoth, Kael's forces numbered in thousands.
    Last edited by DeicideUH; 2019-05-06 at 02:31 AM.
    Not a native english speaker, so pardon my typos and grammar errors.

  8. #10508
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Actually i tend not to respond to you as I seem to get a flurry of responses for what I post and I prioritise responding to those I have been engaged in lengthier conversation with given how much time composing appropriate responses takes. But if you want to think it's because you've unanswerable arguments, that's entirely your choice. Don't worry, if you make a point that catches my interest I will respond.
    "I cherry pick softball arguments to write essay long replies to. They let me move goalposts and concede arguments to me - like not bringing up Pandaren - you do not. Blocked."
    I have < 10 comments in this thread (anyone can check my post history), and you responded until I called out misinformation about Kul Tirans that was intended to deflect the most popular arguments against High Elves. Kul Tirans are not half Drust. Kul Tirans did not drink contaminated water. Kul Tiras were not an isolated nation. Word of God said that Kul Tirans are Human. Superficial differences - they're fat - is enough difference to be confirmed as an AR. Fat is a "race" now. You do not need a 1000 years of evolution to get a fat human.

    Main Anti High Elf Arguments

    High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race. You cant have two playable versions of the same race. Pandaren dont count for some reason.
    Humans prove this wrong. You can play as a Kul Tiran, Stormwind, and Guilnean Human.

    Because High Elves and Blood Elves are the same race, they must look exactly alike.
    Humans prove this wrong again. They are one race, but have a variety of appearances. Fat, muscular, tall, average, skinny - and children/babies prove they can show age too.

    My counter arguments are quick, clear and to the point. No subjective wall of text. Just facts. Well?\

    Edit: Adding Harland Sweete as another physical variation of Human.
    Last edited by Alixie; 2019-05-06 at 04:52 AM. Reason: harlan Sweete

  9. #10509
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    Since when biology matters in a world where beings of stone evolved into flesh?
    since we are talking about species and races yes it matters
    Also, by using biology as argument, you end up with my worgen counter-argument. Worgen are biologically humans.
    the curse is a condition who make then different, same as the undead condition, elves do not have this is an entirely different subject that should not be put in the same bag.

    (Also, strictly speaking in biological terms, races do not exist)
    Thats also another thing you do know about, cause it do exist.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alixie View Post
    Humans prove this wrong. You can play as a Kul Tiran, Stormwind, and Guilnean Human.
    they don't because they are not the same race of humans, clearly they have differences and lore to proof that

    the difference from a high elf to a blood elf is the same of a human in the old town and a human in the mage quarter, none
    Last edited by Syegfryed; 2019-05-06 at 02:54 AM.

  10. #10510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the curse is a condition who make then different, same as the undead condition, elves do not have this is an entirely different subject that should not be put in the same bag.
    If two Gilneans have a child, that child is born as a regular human without the Worgen Curse. This is why Worgens that we play are still biologically humans. This is backed up by Word of God.

    Therefore Worgen are another race of humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    Thats also another thing you do know about, cause it do exist.
    He does know about it, you clearly don't. He's saying "Race" is not a scientific term (aka speaking 'biological terms'). Race is a social construct.

  11. #10511
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    If two Gilneans have a child, that child is born as a regular human without the Worgen Curse.
    but you play with the guilnean child without do curse buddy? you don't, if you want you play a regular human and roleplay as a guilnean

    Therefore Worgen are another race of humans.
    they are worgens, even if another race of humans, they are not the same humans, this already end your false analogy

    they clearly have distinguishable morphological differences

    He does know about it, you clearly don't. He's saying "Race" is not a scientific term (aka speaking 'biological terms'). Race is a social construct.
    Race its not a social construct, you also don't know about it, its easy to do a quick search before saying that.

  12. #10512
    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Keep asking for them folks. We will get them, one day or another. whether it is by new costumisation options or as a new allied race.
    I can only hope Silvermoon is turned into a new warfront in the end and the sunwell corrupted again, allowing void elves to grow in number and possibly opening the way to new skin options for them.

    The blood elves would be exiled to Suramar so that each faction would have an elven capital magic.
    The Blood Elves aren't being exiled; the Quel'dorei would have a new capital, and likely share it with their "voided" brothers/sisters!

  13. #10513
    Mechagnome Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the point is he is wrong, they are the same race
    Hello?

    Blood elves are High elves by race.

    Blood elves -DO NOT- call themselves High elves.

    The 'High elf experience' -is not- available to be played, the Blood elf on horde are what is available.

    It's so linear that it's worrying to see someone so willingly drifting out of the lane. It's simple as those books with uncolored drawings for kids to paint without getting outside the borders. Easy to understand as a BLTC sandwich which goes: Bacon ---> Lettuce ---> Tomato ---> Cheese.

    Seriously, you are not being taken in a serious manner by faulting to a simple equation as that.

    Get. It. Right. Damn!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I have one person on ignore. It is not because he is rude, there are individuals who are rude who I have not ignored. Nor is it because he is a fantastic debater, I class Garfurion as one of the better pro High Elf debaters in this forum and he is not on ignore. The individual I have on ignore is on ignore for two specific reasons, which I am not going to get into on a public forum as that is not the point and would be rightfully classes as an ad hominem attack. I make this response in case you believe I am hiding from something, which is not the case.
    Nobody said you ignored anyone because you couldn't answer back. Why bring that up? Well maybe i have an idea.

    You also answered with being fearful of making an ad hominem attack or something while evading the quotation entirely by citing a seemingly unrelated personal thing.

    You don't need to hide to... actually hide. You just have to make evasive responses with red herrings while twisting actual rightful points and moving goalposts constantly towards those exact same things.

    That's how you can simply go on and on. You started the maddened idea that if Void elves could add more to their ranks they would outnumber High elves, while moorgard stated that they don't recruit but accept individuals searching for them, clearly stating it would not be a massive event. And also while ignoring High elves already had a population that by a common standard is enough to be playable. Tell me how many Bilgewater goblins are out there, how many Darkspear trolls, how many Mag'har orc from Draenor escaped. A village, a literal village of Mag'har orcs. High elves have enough population to have different groups within themselves, an army and civilians, tell me how a population lower than a squad or a village or a bombarded ship survivors or a decimated tribe can have that.

    Of course this is just another demonstration of double standards of someone who labelled DeicideUH as pedantic and arrogant because he doesn't believe these kind of things.

    And of course this continues with the plain half lies such as High elves being already available to be played or the possibility of Void elves being enough to fulfill the High elf fantasy within the Alliance.

    You have to face it and come into conclusion that the only important thing about High elves becoming playable is this idea of a faction barrier. And even that is a weak one because a faction is what it's members make of it, Alliance High elves included. When Ion got interviewed and answered about instanced content between factions he -specifically- answered about players, just -you- twisted it to mean anything else. Here is the interview where he answers about that: https://www.forbes.com/sites/hnewman.../#3fafe65ea0e1

    Hazzikostas: Honestly I think that's extremely unlikely for a few reasons. The Alliance-Horde divide is something that's integral to Warcraft. It's integral to the franchise, to the world, integral to World of Warcraft. The mercenary mode, it's very fourth-wall breaking, there's an artifice to it. But the premise is, you are disguising yourself. You're transforming into a member of the Alliance. And it's for random match activity only.

    Blah blah blah...

    Mercenary mode, even on the PvP side, is not designed to create social connections. This is not letting you make friends on the Horde, if you were Alliance or vice versa, who you're going to PvP with. It's just getting you a random battleground faster. Whereas the barriers for things like Mythic Plus groups or Mythic raiding guilds, those require that sustained ongoing social connection that's incompatible with the Horde-Alliance division that is so integral to World of Warcraft.

    Factions and it's members are two separate things, it's members are the ones who makes the factions, not the other way around.

    High elves are Alliance members you like it or not, the HE AR cannot damage factions in any way. A faction is what it's members make of it. If High elves are Alliance, then they -are- another aspect of the Alliance, and not the horde. Because in the horde, there -are- the Blood elves. Who are a different group of Thalassians. The HE request has it's -motives- to exist, if the lore didn't backed that up in the slightest then you could speak of actually just wanting the model or taking anything from the horde, which given the... not current, but continuous circumstances since the very start, is absolutely not the case.
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2019-05-06 at 04:27 AM.

  14. #10514
    Quote Originally Posted by DeicideUH View Post
    So, a physical difference caused by a cultural difference is to be ignored because you say so?

    BY the concept of "race" you are trying to push, worgen and humans are the same race. Worgen are humans, they even breed human children. However, they are a different "race" for gameplay purposes because they have a curse that allows them to turn into wolf humanoids and back.
    Technically, they're a different species.

  15. #10515
    Quote Originally Posted by dontrelleroosevelt View Post
    Technically, they're a different species.
    I don't think so.

    I think worgen can only be considered a "different race/species" if what makes them different (the worgen curse) can be passed down to their children. Which I've seen no indication that it does... nor that it should. It'd be like saying if a man or a woman gets a tattoo... then his/her child would be born already sporting the same tattoo.
    Is there anything from vanilla WoW you are not looking forward to despite your hype for Classic? Come and tell us what it is.

  16. #10516
    Mechagnome Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I don't think so.

    I think worgen can only be considered a "different race/species" if what makes them different (the worgen curse) can be passed down to their children. Which I've seen no indication that it does... nor that it should. It'd be like saying if a man or a woman gets a tattoo... then his/her child would be born already sporting the same tattoo.
    Wasn't it that they can't pass it to their children through a passive action and it is something they let adults to decide? Like passing the curse or something like that through a bite?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's not irrelevant, no matter how hard you wish it to be. The high elf community is asking for high elves, not blood elves. And yet, with your constantly 'blood elves are high elves', you continue to imply that all high elves as being blood elves. They're not. There is a distinction between the two, that makes them want high elves.


    But not all high elves are blood elves.
    No, he doesn't refer to that when he says 'Blood elves are High elves', what he means is that by his standards the High elves are already playable. Which we already know it is just a lie that's too easy to make and sounds like it is plausible.

  17. #10517
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Wasn't it that they can't pass it to their children through a passive action and it is something they let adults to decide? Like passing the curse or something like that through a bite?
    I think it boils down to "is it naturally passed to their off-spring on conception?" to be considered a "new race", at least to me. I mean, getting a tattoo, coloring your hair or losing a limb aren't exactly things that you pass to your off-spring.
    Is there anything from vanilla WoW you are not looking forward to despite your hype for Classic? Come and tell us what it is.

  18. #10518
    Mechagnome Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    the point is he is wrong, they are the same race
    He isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you are again using the false equivalence
    Not, because:

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    you are trying to compare blood elves and high elves to maghar orcs and green orcs, or other allied race like taurens and highmountains this is wrong,

    you can compare a BE and HE dilema with Warsong orcs and Frostwolf orcs, both are the exactly same race of orc but from different groups, exactly like the elves

    the rest is not my problem and i don't want dig in the rabbit hole.
    Those two examples are still two pairs of different groups, call it whatever you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    it actually means everything, because all allied races are not the same biological race they came from, they have distinguishable differences in their appearance both by magic ways or biology, making then different.

    i already answer about this false equivalence in the post above
    It's called an -Allied- race for a reason, they aren't literal Sub-races.

    Btw damn Kul'tirans.

  19. #10519
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    526 pages and all I read is:
    mimimi, we need ̶b̶̶l̶̶o̶̶o̶̶d̶ high elves for alliance.
    And it will never happen. Deal with it.

  20. #10520
    Quote Originally Posted by Syegfryed View Post
    they don't because they are not the same race of humans, clearly they have differences and lore to proof that
    All humans belong to the same race: (species) Humans. Word of God confirmed this.

    Warcraft Humans do not have ethnicities because they do not separate themselves by physical characteristics. For example:
    Taelia Fordragon is from Lordaeron.
    Flynn Fairwind is from Kul Tiras.
    Danath Trollbane is from Arathor.
    Genn Greymane is from Guilneas.

    All resemble "Stormwind Humans". Humans of different skin colors and body types are represented throughout the Human Kingdoms. This is most obvious in Kul Tiras. Humans separate themselves by nationalities, or Kingdoms, but are all still confirmed as one human race. Humans from Guilneas, Kul Tiras, and Stormwind, are different fractions, but they are the same race/species.

    Remember, this is the original argument; We cant have multiple playable versions of the same race. High Elf/High Elf. But the 3 playable versions of Humans and Pandaren prove otherwise.

    This is also the second major argument; People of the same race must be uniform in appearance. Again, the Humans prove that members of the same race can look different than each other, without the excuse of magical transformation or drinking irradiated water.

    the difference from a high elf to a blood elf is the same of a human in the old town and a human in the mage quarter, none
    This is where arguments turn into 10 page long circular arguments because there's no agreement about clans, tribes, and fractions. Elves are the polar opposite of Humans. They separate themselves by everything, including physical appearance. The irony is that players insist that all elves are the same, when elves would cut your face for conflating them all together, lowborne scum.

    In conclusion, if you believe that we cant have two playable versions of the same race, or that everyone of that race must look the exact same, then Humans prove you wrong. And if you agree that multiple playable versions of the same race work because they are separated by clans or nationalities, then High Elves will work. At least with High Elves, they have different political affiliations, when all Humans belong to the same fraction.
    Last edited by Alixie; 2019-05-06 at 04:57 AM.

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