Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

The Kul'Tiran example showcased that two identical races can suddenly become not identical in gameplay only and in nothing else if there is a will from Blizzard. That means that there is nothing in game or in lore that could have prevented Blizzard to differentiate two identical races that Blizzard would care about. It's just Blizzard doesn't want to add High Elves and it's not because they share the same model with the Blood Elves, but because Ion wants the archetype of "fair skinned elf" to stay pure Horde.

It will be fun if they end up using their model to make the long awaited ogre AR.

[matrix123mko]

Literally play Warcraft.

High elves in Alliance faction in Warcraft 3 were there privately. Quel'thalas was an independent faction since Warcraft 2. Also, humans of Lordaeron are Horde anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

It will be fun if they end up using their model to make the long awaited ogre AR.

I am sure they will but with changed dances and some other emotes.

[elbleuet]

High elves in Alliance faction in Warcraft 3 were there privately. Quel'thalas was an independent faction since Warcraft 2. Also, humans of Lordaeron are Horde anyway.

They may now rename themselves dead humans of Kalimdor, because they lost Lordaeron for ever. And that's a good thing.

[matrix123mko]

They may now rename themselves dead humans of Kalimdor, because they lost Lordaeron for ever. And that's a good thing.

They could build a new city in burned husk of Teldrassil. That would look nice.

[elbleuet]

They could build a new city in burned husk of Teldrassil. That would look nice.

That would be amazing. Or even in Theramore. The irony.

[matrix123mko]

That would be amazing. Or even in Theramore. The irony.

Theramore wouldn't look as nice as Teldrassil, but I think it would be more practical. Imagine if they could create some arcane machinery to harness magical energies in Theramore.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

High elves in Alliance faction in Warcraft 3 were there privately. Quel'thalas was an independent faction since Warcraft 2. Also, humans of Lordaeron are Horde anyway.

- - - Updated - - -

The living inhabitant of Lordaeron would probably disagree with that statement. Its more like some undead humans of Lordaeron are Horde. You are evidently confusing the City with the Kingdom, which was the largest and most populous of all human kingdoms. And anyway they no longer hold the Capital City anymore, and IIRC the new take on their ideology is that they should absolutely not identify with their previous lives, so here goes their claims to be the successors to Lordaeron.

While a substantial part of Lordaeron fell to the Scourge, with a fraction seceding to the Forsaken, a substantial number of territories and citizens survived and clearly identified with Lordaeron :

-Garithos and his men before being betrayed by Sylvanas
-most notably Hillsbrad Foothills and Southshore were part of Lordaeron, and before being genocided during Cataclysm were staunch Alliance members
-most of the Scarlet Crusade and later Scarlet Onslaught, plus the various surviving citizen you had to kill when questing as a Forsaken were Lordaeronian
-a good portion of the humans in the Argent Dawn/Crusade are surviving Lordaeronian humans, effectively still holding territory and reclaiming the land since Cataclysm, funnily enough they are faction neutral despite some of their paladins being abducted on order of the Banshee Queen for experimenting purposes
-there were significant population exchanges between Stormwind and Lordaeron, so many current citizens of the former would also identify with the latter, like Rogers for example

At that point the Forsaken are as representative of Lordaeron as the Defias Brotherhood is representative of Stormwind (i.e. originate from it but aim at destroying it and everything it stood for).

[matrix123mko]

The living inhabitant of Lordaeron would probably disagree with that statement. Its more like some undead humans of Lordaeron are Horde. You are evidently confusing the City with the Kingdom, which was the largest and most populous of all human kingdoms. And anyway they no longer hold the Capital City anymore, and IIRC the new take on their ideology is that they should absolutely not identify with their previous lives, so here goes their claims to be the successors to Lordaeron.

They are still the greatest group of them. Convincing me that groups of refugees are true Lordaeronians is like saying that Silver Covenant is real succesor of Quel'thalas.

-Garithos and his men before being betrayed by Sylvanas

Blood elves wouldn't like to work with him again.

-most notably Hillsbrad Foothills and Southshore were part of Lordaeron, and before being genocided during Cataclysm were staunch Alliance members

So separatists.

-most of the Scarlet Crusade and later Scarlet Onslaught, plus the various surviving citizen you had to kill when questing as a Forsaken were Lordaeronian

Sect.

-a good portion of the humans in the Argent Dawn/Crusade are surviving Lordaeronian humans, effectively still holding territory and reclaiming the land since Cataclysm, funnily enough they are faction neutral despite some of their paladins being abducted on order of the Banshee Queen for experimenting purposes

They didn't identify as country, but neutral party to fight the Scourge. They lived in peace with the Forsaken.

-there were significant population exchanges between Stormwind and Lordaeron, so many current citizens of the former would also identify with the latter, like Rogers for example

Not significant enough. Can be also called Stormwindians then.

At that point the Forsaken are as representative of Lordaeron as the Defias Brotherhood is representative of Stormwind (i.e. originate from it but aim at destroying it and everything it stood for).

Defias isn't as big as the Forsaken.

Lordaeron stood for two things: Holy Light, which abandoned them and survival, which Sylvanas ensures. Forsaken are Lordaeron.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

They are still the greatest group of them. Convincing me that groups of refugees are true Lordaeronians is like saying that Silver Covenant is real succesor of Quel'thalas.

Them being the largest group is doubtful, for a long time their characterization was that of small enclaves besieged by hostiles forces all around (lots and lots of Scourge undead humans, civilian living humans, Scarlet Crusade, feral worgens, etc...). Convincing me that a group of undead humans is Lordaeron is like saying the San'layn are the real successor of Quel'thalas.

Blood elves wouldn't like to work with him again.

But wouldn't it be fun if the Dark Lady gets to raise him in her service, even as an Abomination? I'm still wondering if they might do that with good old Daelin, that would be a lot of fun for the Orcs too!

So separatists.

Separatists from what? Was Kael'thas a separatist from Silvermoon since he lived in Dalaran?

Sect.

Surviving Lordaeronian competing for survival/territory with undead Lordaeronian belonging to the Cult of the Dark Lady/Banshee Queen. I say the former have a standing at least equal to the latter when it comes to be representants of Lordaeron, plus they even had ambassadors in the Alliance, its just that talks were not as advanced as those sponsored by Cairne.

They didn't identify as country, but neutral party to fight the Scourge. They lived in peace with the Forsaken.

While the latter are abducting their paladins to use in experiments and blighting freshly reclaimed land. I guess the peace is one-sided (But perfectly in-character of the Forsaken, similar to their "loyalty" with the Horde).

Not significant enough. Can be also called Stormwindians then.

BORN Lordaeronian :
- if alive, either still living in Lordaeron and thus a living Lordaeronian, or refugee and called Stormwindian? I guess Americans living abroad are not Americans then.
- if undead, either free-willed (very few), or "free-willed" and thus a Forsaken, or not free-willed and thus Scourge

If we start measuring by number only and discard elements such as survival and identities, then the Scourge is Lordaeron, like the Scourge is also Quel'thalas (given that 90% died, with a sizeable fraction "converted" in the process).

Defias isn't as big as the Forsaken.

At the beginning of the game they had influence over a comparable amount of territory, and given that they represent a fraction of disenfranchized denizens from a human Kingdom their numbers could be comparable. They even had allies from other races (gnolls, ogres, goblins), a subterranean capital city and a secret weapon developed in secrecy aimed at obliterating their enemy.

There is nothing that says in-game that playable factions are majorities and everything else minorities. Especially given the in-game fate of 3 boatfull of orcs VS 3 wordfulls of orcs, a minor island Troll tribe VS 4+ Troll empires, a barely surviving tribe of Tauren VS multiple Centaur Hordes and a boat of Goblins VS several cartels.

A band of Pilgrim and others did manage to gain dominance over a major Continent which inhabitants vastly outnumbered them, but it took them at least a few centuries, not 20 years. And the previous inhabitant were still there first and much more numerous in the beginning, its just that the spotlight wasn't on them.

Lordaeron stood for two things: Holy Light, which abandoned them and survival, which Sylvanas ensures. Forsaken are Lordaeron.

Lordaeron and its King Terenas stood for the Holy Light, Justice and Survival

The Alliance, also called the Alliance of Lordaeron stands for the Holy Light, Justice and Survival
The Argent Dawn/Crusade stands for the Holy Light, Justice and Survival
The Scarlet Crusade stands for the Holy Light, Justice and Survival
The Forsaken stands for the Holy Light Sylvanas, Justice vengeance on the living and Survival/Undeath to all. The Forsaken are arrows in her quiver and her bulwark against oblivion.

But I agree that the Forsaken were Lordaeronian in life, and I wish we had more fun characters, like Godfrey, Galen, Garithos, Daelin, Blackmoore, and others that would have been renowned Orc/Troll killers in life.

I'm all for more Forsaken Fun with Gnomes thrown in the mix. We could have much more Orcs from the battlefields of all those wars, imagine the potential of risen Blackhand, risen Doomhammer, risen Cairne, risen Zul'jin, risen Sen'jin, risen Dagran Thaurissan, risen Thortheldrin, etc...

[elbleuet]

Let's not forget that the forsaken are also a group of refugees now ! Without land and without kingdom since they will likely not return to Lordaeron anytime soon.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

Let's not forget that the forsaken are also a group of refugees now ! Without land and without kingdom since they will likely not return to Lordaeron anytime soon.

Might even part of her strategy to sever for ever the roots of life nostalgia.

[Obelisk Kai]

False. He dumbed down what he thinks what the pro-high elf community wants, and what he thinks the pro-high elf community wants has been debunked several times already.

How can it be debunked? What he thinks you want is clearly the Blood Elf aesthetic and theme, and he is right. Other pro High Elfers have proven him right

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ould-have-been
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9321996?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9202230?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9321996?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9291971?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9476515#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9507692?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9507858#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9428480?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...0736622?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...0817498?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...0937680?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760948166
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20762216962
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17618033965
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...lors/136464/62
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...her-skin-color

You can talk about how it isn't the aesthetics, that it's the lore you are after, but every single person who posted in any of the above threads agitating for high elf like skins on Void Elves automatically proves you wrong and simultaneously explains why Ion Hazzikostas is so sure it's about the aesthetic. Because it is.

Anyone who genuinely wants high elves on the Alliance because of the lore is being used by those who want the aesthetic, as saying your desire is based in lore gives the demand a patina of credibility. Saying it's because you don't want dirty blue or gray skin makes you look shallow.

Not to mention that his whole shpiel of "blurring faction lines" has already been debunked by demonstrating how painting blood elves purple did not prevent faction lines from being "blurred". First the pandaren, now the nightborne and void elves.

Yeah you keep plugging this as if it's a fact. Here's the thing, you aren't a developer. You aren't in charge. He is. Alliance High Elves were rejected because they blur the faction lines. Void Elves, because they are actually in the game, must not blur the faction lines to the same degree if at all. They, and Nightborne, are within acceptable limits.

Ion is a developer. You are a biased fan with an agenda. You are not going to prove him wrong. He told us Alliance High Elves were unacceptable but that Void Elves were acceptable. That is enough.

False. I may want high elves to be playable, but that doesn't make me biased. "Biased" is looking at the character selection screen in WoW, seeing no high elf option in the Alliance, and say "high elves are playable".

You are innately biased. You are repeatedly told, both by developers and the game itself, that high elves are playable as Blood Elves. Because you are biased, you reject what you have been told and substitute your own truth, that because they aren't available in the Alliance, they aren't playable.

The worst thing is, you are doubly wrong. Not only are traditional high elves playable as Blood Elves, but a high elf variant (described as another flavour of high elf) is available on the Alliance character creator. You are the one arguing that Void Elves blur the faction lines by being so very close to Blood Elves. Yet Blood Elves ARE High Elves. Therefore, there IS a High Elf option on the Alliance. Your bias is so strong however that you do not wish to admit it.

If you're going to accuse me of "being biased with an agenda", then HELLO! This is the pot calling the kettle black. You're just as biased with just as much an agenda.

The difference is that while I am aware of my bias, my bias is supported by the game itself. It's much easier when your position is supported by the facts.

No. Blood elves call themselves blood elves. High elves call themselves high elves. You won't find any blood elf in the game willingly and proudly calling themselves 'high elf'.

Because they redefined what a high elf is as a Blood Elf. But they are still high elves.

They do have differences. The eye color, for one. Plus more could be given.

Funny how you immediately go for the eye colour, even though that is something that has actually been debunked. Not debunked as a pro High Elfer defined debunking, which is to ignore contrary evidence and simply state you are wrong, debunked by the presentation of actual in game evidence.

And more could be given?

Yeah you've earned a smiley for that, because saying 'more could be given' is an acknowledgement that eye colour isn't enough and that you want them to retcon some changes onto the Alliance High Elves. You know, since you've asked, how about I suggest some differences you could give to your Alliance High Elves so they could be different from Blood Elves and yet be proud thalassian elves within the Alliance.

1.)Different skin tones, I would say something that runs from white, to gray, to dusky blue with light blue and light purple tinges.
2.) Different hair colours, maybe something that is blue, gray or purple.
3.) Optional tentacles.

There. I think that's the sort of extra differences your alliance high elves could be given to differentiate them. What do you think?

Joking aside, they did exactly what you suggested with thalassian elves and they created Void Elves and that wasn't accepted by the hardcore such as yourself. Same old request for Blizzard to give you high elves that are different but the same.

And the fact that the faction lines are more blurred than a line drawn on the sand after the sea tides have washed over it repeatedly for a day.

If Nightborne and Void Elves blur the faction lines, then they do so to a far smaller degree than Alliance High Elves would because Nightborne and Void Elves still have substantial differences from their parent races. In other words, Nightborne and Void Elves are acceptable as they blur the lines to a far lesser degree.
If Nightborne and Void Elves don't blur the faction lines, then Alliance High Elves definitely would as they are identical to Blood Elves.

Either way, Alliance high elves are far more destructive to faction diversity than Void Elves ever would or could be.

You never engage with the logic of this point and attempt to force an equivalence, that because one group blurs the faction lines a little, and the other blurs the faction lines a lot, then the outcomes are equivalent.

So you're saying that if you walk into a filthy restaurant, but the owner tells you it's clean, plus it has a plaque on the wall saying the restaurant is clean, you'll accept his word that his restaurant is clean despite what your eyes tell you?

The analogy fails because it's predicated on a flawed basis, that the developers are wrong and you are right.

You are not right. You are a customer coming into an immaculate restaurant and insisting it's dirty despite all evidence to the contrary.

Objectively false. The eye color of blood elves have shifted from blue to green. All high elves still have blue eyes. I have not seen a single high elf in the game with green eyes. Or a blood elf with blue eyes, for that matter.

Blood Elves are high elves. Blood Elves have been defined as High Elves by the game's creators. Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves are the same race. The shift from blue to green and then from green to golden proves eye colour is mutable. As eye colour is mutable, it is not a permanent distinguishing characteristic. Alliance High Elves, who maintain predominantly blue eyes, are as much a separate group from Blood Elves as golden eyed Blood Elves are a separate group from green eyed Blood Elves.

Which are all basically meaningless when over 90% of the armor in the game covers your entire body and over 9 times out of 10 you will not be able to tell a night elf apart from a nightborne, or a void elf from a blood elf, before their outline color, health bar color or name color tells you which one they are.

So once again, dress up in full armor and roleplay if you find armor disguises a Void Elf that much.

Might be gone for a bit out of this discussion, it takes too much time to formulate responses and I have busy days ahead.

It does take a long time to write a reply and after writing the one above, and given you are taking time out, I'll leave my response at just this.

[matrix123mko]

Them being the largest group is doubtful, for a long time their characterization was that of small enclaves besieged by hostiles forces all around (lots and lots of Scourge undead humans, civilian living humans, Scarlet Crusade, feral worgens, etc...). Convincing me that a group of undead humans is Lordaeron is like saying the San'layn are the real successor of Quel'thalas.

They have settlements everywhere. They are much more numerous than all living Lordaeronians altogether.

But wouldn't it be fun if the Dark Lady gets to raise him in her service, even as an Abomination? I'm still wondering if they might do that with good old Daelin, that would be a lot of fun for the Orcs too!

Yes, it would be really fun.

Separatists from what? Was Kael'thas a separatist from Silvermoon since he lived in Dalaran?

Separatists from Kingdom of Lordaeron who dare to fight the Banshee Queen.

Surviving Lordaeronian competing for survival/territory with undead Lordaeronian belonging to the Cult of the Dark Lady/Banshee Queen. I say the former have a standing at least equal to the latter when it comes to be representants of Lordaeron, plus they even had ambassadors in the Alliance, its just that talks were not as advanced as those sponsored by Cairne.

Forsaken aren't cult. They are secularised society of people who want to survive and have vengeance on the Lich King. Also, I can't understand how Stormwind's backing gives Scarlet Crusade more legitimism.

While the latter are abducting their paladins to use in experiments and blighting freshly reclaimed land. I guess the peace is one-sided (But perfectly in-character of the Forsaken, similar to their "loyalty" with the Horde).

They blight what is theirs. As for these paladins, they are expendable loss in the war against Arthas.

BORN Lordaeronian :
- if alive, either still living in Lordaeron and thus a living Lordaeronian, or refugee and called Stormwindian? I guess Americans living abroad are not Americans then.
- if undead, either free-willed (very few), or "free-willed" and thus a Forsaken, or not free-willed and thus Scourge

They strongly identify themselves with Stormwind. So strongly that they attack their people. They are not Lordaeronians anymore.

If we start measuring by number only and discard elements such as survival and identities, then the Scourge is Lordaeron, like the Scourge is also Quel'thalas (given that 90% died, with a sizeable fraction "converted" in the process).

Most of them are mindless husks. They rather count as animals.

At the beginning of the game they had influence over a comparable amount of territory, and given that they represent a fraction of disenfranchized denizens from a human Kingdom their numbers could be comparable. They even had allies from other races (gnolls, ogres, goblins), a subterranean capital city and a secret weapon developed in secrecy aimed at obliterating their enemy.

There is nothing that says in-game that playable factions are majorities and everything else minorities. Especially given the in-game fate of 3 boatfull of orcs VS 3 wordfulls of orcs, a minor island Troll tribe VS 4+ Troll empires, a barely surviving tribe of Tauren VS multiple Centaur Hordes and a boat of Goblins VS several cartels.

A band of Pilgrim and others did manage to gain dominance over a major Continent which inhabitants vastly outnumbered them, but it took them at least a few centuries, not 20 years. And the previous inhabitant were still there first and much more numerous in the beginning, its just that the spotlight wasn't on them.

I give you this one. Stormwind and Defias were two worthy opponents in fight for the title of Kingdom of Stormwind.

Lordaeron and its King Terenas stood for the Holy Light, Justice and Survival

The Alliance, also called the Alliance of Lordaeron stands for the Holy Light, Justice and Survival
The Argent Dawn/Crusade stands for the Holy Light, Justice and Survival
The Scarlet Crusade stands for the Holy Light and Survival

What is justice anyway? A buzzword to hide concentration camps?

The Forsaken stands for the Sylvanas, vengeance on the living and Survival/Undeath to all. The Forsaken are arrows in her quiver and her bulwark against oblivion.

Common missconception that they want to kill everyone. Alliance propaganda at its finest.

[elbleuet]

What is justice anyway? A buzzword to hide concentration camps?

You'd have prefered them to be all tortured and killed ? Nice.

[Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang]

They have settlements everywhere. They are much more numerous than all living Lordaeronians altogether.

Classic was them having the Undercity (the ruins of Lordaeron), the ruins of Brill and the ruins of Deathknell plus some tiny camps scattered left and right. They were not holding anything else, looking besieged by still numerous living humans and much more numerous Scourge and feral Undeads. Also, its had been repeated plentifuly that they are unable to reproduce and their supply of Lordaeronian corpses have run dry since they lost, you know, Lordaeron, and they have been shown to "recruit" more and more Arathis, Stormwindians and Elves of the High, Blood and Night varieties over now 5 expansions, so what is left Lordaeroniness in them is no less diluted than that of survivors in the Alliance.

Separatists from Kingdom of Lordaeron who dare to fight the Banshee Queen.

There is no longer a Kingdom of Lordaeron. The Banshee Claim has no other claim than conquest, against living people having lived there for countless generations.

Forsaken aren't cult. They are secularised society of people who want to survive and have vengeance on the Lich King. Also, I can't understand how Stormwind's backing gives Scarlet Crusade more legitimism.

Secularized, yeah maybe like North Korea is with its Cult of Leader. Cult of Forgotten Shadow notwithstanding. Scarlet Crusade and Forsaken were two organizations competing for control over the remnants of the Kingdom of Lordaeron, each seeked outside support to bolster its feeble hold, one with the Alliance, the other with the Horde, its just that one was more successful than the other.

They blight what is theirs. As for these paladins, they are expendable loss in the war against Arthas.

Spoken like a true Forsaken! I guess the whole World is due for some blighting. And propaganda omitted to inform you that Arthas is long dead.

They strongly identify themselves with Stormwind. So strongly that they attack their people. They are not Lordaeronians anymore.

They strongly identify themselves with Sylvanas. So strongly that they attack their people. They are not Lordaeronians anymore.

Most of them are mindless husks. They rather count as animals.

The common take on undeads (Father Alonsus, pray for us)

I give you this one. Stormwind and Defias were two worthy opponents in fight for the title of Kingdom of Stormwind.

A rather poor misconception, Van Cleef was not fighting the Wrynns to become King of the Kingdom of Stormwind, he was the leader of a revolutionary organization that wanted to raze Stormwind to the ground and get rid of its scheming nobles together with brigands, gnolls, goblins and ogres (ignoring civilian casualties).

What is justice anyway? A buzzword to hide concentration camps?

It was the alternative to genocide. How fitting that those internment camps were held in life by Lordaeronian, and later converted by the Forsaken (aka undead Lordaeronian) into death and human experimentation camps.

Common missconception that they want to kill everyone. Alliance propaganda at its finest.

"Death to the living" : Forsaken battle cry
"Beware the living" : Forsaken greetings

[Ielenia]

How can it be debunked? What he thinks you want is clearly the Blood Elf aesthetic and theme, and he is right. Other pro High Elfers have proven him right

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ould-have-been
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9321996?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9202230?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9321996?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9291971?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9476515#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9507692?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9507858#post-1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...9428480?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...0736622?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...0817498?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/...0937680?page=1
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20760948166
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20762216962
https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17618033965
https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...lors/136464/62
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...her-skin-color

You can talk about how it isn't the aesthetics, that it's the lore you are after, but every single person who posted in any of the above threads agitating for high elf like skins on Void Elves automatically proves you wrong and simultaneously explains why Ion Hazzikostas is so sure it's about the aesthetic. Because it is.

Anyone who genuinely wants high elves on the Alliance because of the lore is being used by those who want the aesthetic, as saying your desire is based in lore gives the demand a patina of credibility. Saying it's because you don't want dirty blue or gray skin makes you look shallow.

From what I've read, the majority of those who say "light-skinned, majestic, Alliance BE" are those against high elves, so I'm not sure your point works the way you think it does. You're basically implying that the "pro-high elf arguments from the pro-high elf community" that Ion has read to reach his (wrong) conclusion were almost solely arguments from the anti-high elf.

Most talk about variations like giving the high elves blue hair, or talk about the lore.

Yeah you keep plugging this as if it's a fact. Here's the thing, you aren't a developer. You aren't in charge. He is.

So you're saying that if you walk into a filthy restaurant, but the owner tells you it's clean, plus it has a plaque on the wall saying the restaurant is clean, you'll accept his word that his restaurant is clean despite what your eyes tell you?

You are innately biased. You are repeatedly told, both by developers and the game itself, that high elves are playable as Blood Elves. Because you are biased, you reject what you have been told and substitute your own truth, that because they aren't available in the Alliance, they aren't playable.

No, they say that "light-skinned, majestic elves" are in the Horde, but the pro-high elf community doesn't want blood elves. They want high elves. If what Ion has described was truly what the pro-high elf community wanted, then they'd be all playing Horde and this mega-thread would not exist.

The difference is that while I am aware of my bias, my bias is supported by the game itself. It's much easier when your position is supported by the facts.

So, no difference at all? Because my perceived bias is also supported by the game itself.

Because they redefined what a high elf is as a Blood Elf. But they are still high elves.

False. Blood elves can only define what a blood elf is. High elves are still intact as high elves.

Funny how you immediately go for the eye colour, even though that is something that has actually been debunked. Not debunked as a pro High Elfer defined debunking, which is to ignore contrary evidence and simply state you are wrong, debunked by the presentation of actual in game evidence.

And more could be given?

Yeah you've earned a smiley for that, because saying 'more could be given' is an acknowledgement that eye colour isn't enough and that you want them to retcon some changes onto the Alliance High Elves.

No, it's not. I simply added that in an attempt to appease those that still cling to the (wrong) idea that physical differentiation is still a necessity in this day and age in World of Warcraft, especially after the introduction of nightborne and void elves. But silly me to forget any compromise short of "no high elves at all for the Alliance, ever" is not acceptable to the likes of you.

If Nightborne and Void Elves blur the faction lines, then they do so to a far smaller degree than Alliance High Elves would because Nightborne and Void Elves still have substantial differences from their parent races. In other words, Nightborne and Void Elves are acceptable as they blur the lines to a far lesser degree.
If Nightborne and Void Elves don't blur the faction lines, then Alliance High Elves definitely would as they are identical to Blood Elves.

Skin color, and ears pointing up instead of down are nowhere near significant enough to make those two races "sufficiently" different considering the armor in the game.

The analogy fails because it's predicated on a flawed basis, that the developers are wrong and you are right.

I know what my eyes see. And almost all those who work on character modeling agree with my position that silhouette paramount on character/group/faction identities. When you meet another NPC, it's the silhouette who will tell you which faction/group the character belongs to, not the color of its skin.

You are not right. You are a customer coming into an immaculate restaurant and insisting it's dirty despite all evidence to the contrary.

You got it backwards: there's grime everywhere and the owner is insisting it's clean. Just like Ion insisting giving high elves to the Alliance would "blur the faction lines" but think void elves/nightborne don't, despite the indisputable fact that unique silhouettes have been given to opposite factions, already. I'll repeat: if "faction lines" were indeed so important to Ion, and Blizzard as a whole, nightborne would have been given to the Alliance, and void elves to the Horde.

Blood Elves are high elves.

But not all high elves are blood elves. That's an indisputable fact. It's those high elves people have been asking for, not blood elves. That's another indisputable fact.

[Aldo Hawk]

And this is what happens when Domino's pizza start using more salt into their products. Certain normie neckbeards break their sanity and dignity bit by bit.

And by the way, can we not go off-topic?

High elves are not Blood elves.

[Obelisk Kai]

From what I've read, the majority of those who say "light-skinned, majestic, Alliance BE" are those against high elves, so I'm not sure your point works the way you think it does. You're basically implying that the "pro-high elf arguments from the pro-high elf community" that Ion has read to reach his (wrong) conclusion were almost solely arguments from the anti-high elf.

Yeah, all those links deal with people asking to look like a high elf while being a void elf. Many of those who posted in the unofficial void elf threads, including DeicideUH, later migrated to the pro High Elf movement when Blizzard didn't give Void Elves the skins they wanted.

As a result, Ion's conclusion is well founded. The vast majority of people not involved in this debate think it's about the skin tones, the developers think it's about the skin tones, Ion clearly does and Afrasiabi was asked whether Void Elves would get high elf like customizations and he clearly thinks it's about the skin tones, I certainly think it's about the skin tones. The only people arguing it's not about the skin tones are the few pro High Elfers who genuinely care about the lore...and the majority of pro High Elfers who know it's about the skin tones but who've also twigged how arguing for those skin tones makes them look.

Most talk about variations like giving the high elves blue hair, or talk about the lore.

That individual is not a different race from Blood Elves, therefore blue hair for Blood Elves please. Leaving that aside, hair colour is not enough. Eye colour is not enough. Both can be replicated. Differentiation is accomplished by a some sort of profound difference that cannot be replicated.

So you're saying that if you walk into a filthy restaurant, but the owner tells you it's clean, plus it has a plaque on the wall saying the restaurant is clean, you'll accept his word that his restaurant is clean despite what your eyes tell you?

Oh I know this one. It's where you repeat something because you didn't like the answer the first time and you keep asking it until the person tells you to shove it at which point you lie that they can't answer it and you declare victory. It's an easily defeated device though, I simply give you back my last answer every time you ask it.


"The analogy fails because it's predicated on a flawed basis, that the developers are wrong and you are right.

You are not right. You are a customer coming into an immaculate restaurant and insisting it's dirty despite all evidence to the contrary."

No, they say that "light-skinned, majestic elves" are in the Horde, but the pro-high elf community doesn't want blood elves. They want high elves. If what Ion has described was truly what the pro-high elf community wanted, then they'd be all playing Horde and this mega-thread would not exist.

Or Ion understands that the pro High Elf community maybe fanatically pro Alliance and don't want to play Horde...after all, he did say 'if you love Alliance' when addressing pro High Elfers...right before he actually did tell you to go and play Horde.
This is of course the other half of the issue, the company the Blood Elves keep. Had the Blood Elves stayed with the Alliance, and the Silver Covenant High Elves still stayed separate and glowered at them for being mana junkies, do you honestly expect me to believe you'd be agitating for those pure, uncorrupted Silver Covenant High Elves?
You want to have a Horde race on the faction you prefer. Because if it was just about the race, you WOULD be playing Horde.

So, no difference at all? Because my perceived bias is also supported by the game itself.

Character creator makes sure to mention that Blood Elves used to call themselves High Elves.
Starts your Blood Elf off in Quel'thalas.
Your Blood Elf visits the high elf capital of Silvermoon city.
Your Blood Elf can undertake a heritage armor questline showing you 'the last act of the high elves', right before they redefined themselves as Blood Elves.

False. Blood elves can only define what a blood elf is. High elves are still intact as high elves.

Blood Elves constitute such an overwhelming majority of the race that they ARE defining what a high elf is. Which is a Blood Elf. The Alliance High Elf remnant is utterly inconsequential.

No, it's not. I simply added that in an attempt to appease those that still cling to the (wrong) idea that physical differentiation is still a necessity in this day and age in World of Warcraft, especially after the introduction of nightborne and void elves. But silly me to forget any compromise short of "no high elves at all for the Alliance, ever" is not acceptable to the likes of you.

How is it wrong? Every single Allied race added so far is different from it's parent race. Nightborne and Void Elves are different from Night Elves and Blood/High Elves. That is why they were able to be added.
Alliance High Elves were specifically ruled out for being identical to Blood Elves. And it was the physical characteristics Ion cited when dismissing them, physical characteristics that are iconic to the Blood Elves.

You really have to get out of this habit of simply declaring something wrong and then expecting people to take that at face value.

Skin color, and ears pointing up instead of down are nowhere near significant enough to make those two races "sufficiently" different considering the armor in the game.

I know what my eyes see. And almost all those who work on character modeling agree with my position that silhouette paramount on character/group/faction identities. When you meet another NPC, it's the silhouette who will tell you which faction/group the character belongs to, not the color of its skin.


You got it backwards: there's grime everywhere and the owner is insisting it's clean. Just like Ion insisting giving high elves to the Alliance would "blur the faction lines" but think void elves/nightborne don't, despite the indisputable fact that unique silhouettes have been given to opposite factions, already. I'll repeat: if "faction lines" were indeed so important to Ion, and Blizzard as a whole, nightborne would have been given to the Alliance, and void elves to the Horde.

This point you cling to regarding armour and silhouettes. I find it unbelievably ridiculous you know. Like each time you mention it my eyes roll around in my head. It simply doesn't work.

I mean let's actually break it down. Let us break down this silly notion of yours.

Your point is that because Nightborne and Void Elves use the same basic models as Night Elves and Blood/High Elves respectively, that this means the faction boundaries have been broken. And as a result, they shouldn't resist giving the Alliance High Elves on the grounds of faction diversity.

You are probably the only person pushing this argument with any kind of consistency. It's not hard to understand why your fellow pro High Elfers are reluctant to follow this line of attack. Because IF you are in fact right, and Void Elves violate the faction boundary by being too similar to Blood Elves, then you have already won. The Alliance has it's High Elves and this entire thread is redundant.


You have latched onto the silhouette argument because you think it allows you to prove the developers wrong. You continually point to a Void Elf and a Blood Elf wearing the same armour, say 'tell them apart' and if anyone has any difficulty you then allow yourself to declare an unearned victory.

Now I don't believe that. Those complaining about Void Elves because of their skin tones don't believe that. And you certainly don't believe that. So, Void Elves are not the High Elves you wanted.

In fact, why aren't they acceptable? You answer that yourself down here.

But not all high elves are blood elves. That's an indisputable fact. It's those high elves people have been asking for, not blood elves. That's another indisputable fact.

Void Elves to you aren't good enough because they aren't the high elves you wanted. Their lore is too different.

Blood Elves aren't good enough because they are a part of the Horde. Their lore is wrong.

Only Alliance High Elves matter, the right shade of Elf on the right faction.

Yet you, who argues lore is important, are willing to say that lore plays no part in faction diversity. That it's all about the model in fact. That YOU are the only who cares about the story and the background.

Void Elves are not just differentiated by model, they are differentiated by lore. They are void infused mutants, completely at odds with the light based Blood Elves. The Void Elf theme and aesthetic is one that no Blood Elf can ever claim and the Blood/High Elf aesthetic is one the Void Elves have lost.

To win this argument, you disregard everything else that everyone else judges important in measuring the difference between Void Elf and Blood Elf, yet then reserve to yourself the right to say Void Elves aren't good enough based on the very factors you discount whilst saying silhouette is all that matters.

The factors you seek to exclude from discussion so as to win a debate with the developers...those factors are the core reason a Void Elf isn't good enough. All to do with lore and aesthetics and not silhouette.

That is why this argument doesn't hold.

It's an absolutely monstrous hypocrisy where you complain about Void Elves due to how different they are and then turn around and ignore those differences to prove faction diversity has been broken by them.

So pick one. If silhouette is all that matters, go play a Void Elf and be happy and if a Void Elf isn't good enough for you then you implicitly admit other factors are at work.

And this is what happens when Domino's pizza start using more salt into their products. Certain normie neckbeards break their sanity and dignity bit by bit.

And by the way, can we not go off-topic?

Well in favour of High Elves being Blood Elves I present the following blizzard sources including one game director, one promotional video and the guy who literally wrote the book on warcraft.



Announcement video for The Burning Crusade calls them High Elves and Blood Elves in the same sentence.



Chris Metzen himself talking about Blood Elves being a cool twist on High Elves, Blood Elves being High Elves.



Ion Hazzikostas talking about Blood Elves being High Elves.



Ion Hazzikostas having to repeat himself as he apparently wasn't heard clearly the first time.

and in support of the idea that High Elves are not Blood Elves I present the most authoritative opinion against.

High elves are not Blood elves.

I mean sure you're just a fan and not a developer but I can't find any Blizzard source supporting this notion so your fan opinion is as good as any other.

And yes I am entirely aware your counter-point is going to be that the Alliance High Elves aren't Blood Elves but frankly, given a Blood Elf is the High Elf ideal, ain't really any difference beyond the political.

[Aldo Hawk]

https://www.wowhead.com/search?q=silver+covenant

The ol' Blood elves of the Silver Covenant.

High elves are Blood elves? That's a super mental gymnastic right there

Blood elves are High elves, not the other way around. Stop crying about it

[Obelisk Kai]

https://www.wowhead.com/search?q=silver+covenant

The ol' Blood elves of the Silver Covenant.

High elves are Blood elves? That's a super mental gymnastic right there

Blood elves are High elves, not the other way around. Stop crying about it

Frankly if the introduction of Void Elves has proven anything it's how irrelevant to the world Alliance High Elves are. Blood Elves ARE the high elves.

Whatever an Alliance High Elf thinks really isn't relevant to the story of the thalassian elves going forward. Best they can hope for is to be the sidekicks of the Void Elves.