1. #11061
    Mechagnome Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Blood elves are and aren't High elves.

    Why?

    Because the name High elf is used for two different things.

    The name of the species and the name of a group.

    Of Course Blood elves are former High elves.

    What's not true is that Blood elves are the High elves that are being requested.

    Saying 'Blood elves are High elves' is just a red herring that has been abused to derive the conversation towards Blood elves and towards a confusion about what the former name was and the name of the group that don't call themselves Blood elves and are in the Alliance.

  2. #11062
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except they stated no facts regarding this issue. They simply stated an opinion that is verifiably wrong.
    So let me get this straight. The people who create the game.. it's graphics, the gameplay, the story/lore are wrong about something they said to be true. But it's your opinion that your opinion is correct over those that make the story.

    And you like to call Obelisk arrogant...

    Breath taking logic there.
    At times, the frequent redundancy and stupidity of these forums, turns me into an argumentative ass.

    To most of you, I apologize in advance. I will attempt to be nicer.

    To the High Elfers out there... If it doesn't workout how you believe/want don't try to paint Blizzard as the bad guy for your own hype building.

  3. #11063
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Blood elves are and aren't High elves.

    Why?

    Because the name High elf is used for two different things.

    The name of the species and the name of a group.

    Of Course Blood elves are former High elves.

    What's not true is that Blood elves are the High elves that are being requested.

    Saying 'Blood elves are High elves' is just a red herring that has been abused to derive the conversation towards Blood elves and towards a confusion about what the former name was and the name of the group that don't call themselves Blood elves and are in the Alliance.
    Has anyone asked if there's been a DNA change with Sin'dorei and Ren'dorei? I think that could settle a lot of the debate.

  4. #11064
    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    So let me get this straight. The people who create the game.. it's graphics, the gameplay, the story/lore are wrong about something they said to be true. But it's your opinion that your opinion is correct over those that make the story.
    So let me get this straight: if the man who built the restaurant... its theme, its kitchen, arranged the tables and organized everything... say his restaurant is clean, then it is clean to you, despite the fact there are rats scurrying around, grime on the tables and mold on the seats?

    It's not about arrogance. It's about facts: giving the silhouette of night elves to the Horde and the blood elf silhouette to the Alliance (along with their respective lores) has irreparably damaged the "preserve faction identity" reasoning.

    I'll repeat: if "preserving faction identity" was such a big thing, then the nightborne should have given to the Alliance and the void elves should've been given to the Horde. (Not to mention that would even balance out the "lore-rich/ass-pull" allied race ratio)
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2019-05-29 at 05:28 PM.
    Is there anything from vanilla WoW you are not looking forward to despite your hype for Classic? Come and tell us what it is.

  5. #11065
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So let me get this straight: if the man who built the restaurant... its theme, its kitchen, arranged the tables and organized everything... say his restaurant is clean, then it is clean to you, despite the fact there are rats scurrying around, grime on the tables and mold on the seats?
    I don't know why you keep repeating this as though it has some merit, it's a false equivalence. And just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it anymore relatable to what you're trying to compare it to.

    One is something that degrades over time due to a lack of effort, the other is a state in which is controlled by the statement of it's creators. Can the restaurant owner make the place clean by saying that it is? No. Can the creators of a game say that something is the way it is in their universe because that's how they want it to be? Yes.

    And what has been their on going answer for nearly a decade? They're not wrong because they don't believe themselves to be. You claim they're wrong because it's your opinion that they are and you tout it around as though it were fact. Therein lies the problem of those with an agenda, everyone is wrong but themselves and are damn well unwilling to do any measure of self observance in the chance they realize that.
    At times, the frequent redundancy and stupidity of these forums, turns me into an argumentative ass.

    To most of you, I apologize in advance. I will attempt to be nicer.

    To the High Elfers out there... If it doesn't workout how you believe/want don't try to paint Blizzard as the bad guy for your own hype building.

  6. #11066
    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    You should really learn Warcraft Lore, and come back later.

    None of your Horde Blood elves recognize themselves as High elves. They do, but only as former High elves. I recommand you to play WIII TFT, or create for the first time of your life a blood elf and do their starting zone.
    Alleria also believes in money trees!

  7. #11067
    Pit Lord Ferg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post

    I'll repeat: if "preserving faction identity" was such a big thing, then the nightborne should have given to the Alliance and the void elves should've been given to the Horde. (Not to mention that would even balance out the "lore-rich/ass-pull" allied race ratio)
    The void elves didn't want to be with the Horde because they disagreed with the restrictions placed on their usage of void magic, right? So why would it make any sense for them to be a part of the Horde, when they literally left because they were being discriminated against?
    ill probably be infracted for this post

  8. #11068
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferg View Post
    The void elves didn't want to be with the Horde because they disagreed with the restrictions placed on their usage of void magic, right? So why would it make any sense for them to be a part of the Horde, when they literally left because they were being discriminated against?
    Hence, the Alliance is the TRUE evil!

  9. #11069
    Warchief FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferg View Post
    The void elves didn't want to be with the Horde because they disagreed with the restrictions placed on their usage of void magic, right? So why would it make any sense for them to be a part of the Horde, when they literally left because they were being discriminated against?
    I mean it should be a no-brainer but apparently it isn't. If Void Elves did go Horde then obviously the narrative would've gone slightly different while still keeping the same overall theme.

  10. #11070
    Mechagnome Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    When someone creates a tale or a story or whatever you would like to call it, they can have things that doesn't correlate and there is nothing wrong in pointing it out.

    If we have been told that the High Elves are too few, but then we have seen them in various expansions doing all kind of activities and being often portrayed more times that playable races...

    That doesn't hold any ground because of the discrepancy between the statement 'High elves are too few to become playable' and seeing High elves in the way they have been portrayed through WoW and other playable races that have been also told to us that doesn't have a high number of population.

    Dev opinion is Dev opinion.

    That's why something called 'retcon' exists.
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2019-05-29 at 06:22 PM.

  11. #11071
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    When someone creates a tale or a story or whatever you would like to call it, they can have things that doesn't correlate and there is nothing wrong in pointing it out.

    If we have been told that the High Elves are too few, but when we have seen them in various expansions doing all kind of activities and being often portrayed more times that playable races...

    That doesn't hold any ground because of the discrepancy between the statement 'High elves are too few to become playable' and seeing High elves in the way the have been portrayed through WoW and other playable races that have been also told to us that doesn't have a high number of population.

    Dev opinion is Dev opinion.

    That's why something called 'retcon' exists.
    Except that in-game appearances have never been a standing or representation of lore population.
    At times, the frequent redundancy and stupidity of these forums, turns me into an argumentative ass.

    To most of you, I apologize in advance. I will attempt to be nicer.

    To the High Elfers out there... If it doesn't workout how you believe/want don't try to paint Blizzard as the bad guy for your own hype building.

  12. #11072
    Mechagnome Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    Except that in-game appearances have never been a standing or representation of lore population.
    Yup, that's correct.

    In fact, there's always -more- than what's depicted in the game, it has never been less.

    And since you are still holding that attitude... back to the ignore list you go again.

  13. #11073
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Yup, that's correct.

    In fact, there's always -more- than what's depicted in the game, it has never been less.

    And since you are still holding that attitude... back to the ignore list you go again.
    Thanks for agreeing and proving my point?
    At times, the frequent redundancy and stupidity of these forums, turns me into an argumentative ass.

    To most of you, I apologize in advance. I will attempt to be nicer.

    To the High Elfers out there... If it doesn't workout how you believe/want don't try to paint Blizzard as the bad guy for your own hype building.

  14. #11074
    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    I don't know why you keep repeating this as though it has some merit, it's a false equivalence. And just because you keep repeating it doesn't make it anymore relatable to what you're trying to compare it to.
    Just like you simply repeating it's a "false equivalence" doesn't make it so.

    One is something that degrades over time due to a lack of effort, the other is a state in which is controlled by the statement of it's creators.
    Um... both are states in which are controlled by the actions and inactions of their creators. And the "faction identity" thing has been irreparably damaged thanks to their recent actions, namely when they added the nightborne and void elves.

    Can the restaurant owner make the place clean by saying that it is? No. Can the creators of a game say that something is the way it is in their universe because that's how they want it to be? Yes.
    You're ignoring context. And they're not talking about how something "is in their universe" because we're talking about "faction identity", i.e., how each faction looks and feels to the player. In the lore, neither Anduin nor Sylvanas care one bit how their allies look as long as their goals and desires match their own.

    And what has been their on going answer for nearly a decade?
    Could you do me a favor and remind me what has been their "ongoing answer for over a decade" regarding vanilla servers, please?

    They're not wrong because they don't believe themselves to be.
    Just because they believe to be in the right does not mean they are not in the wrong.

    You claim they're wrong because it's your opinion that they are and you tout it around as though it were fact. Therein lies the problem of those with an agenda, everyone is wrong but themselves and are damn well unwilling to do any measure of self observance in the chance they realize that.
    Except the facts are blatant and explicit to anyone who decides to take a look: the "preserve faction identity" reasoning has been rendered null and void by Blizzard themselves when they added the nightborne and void elf allied races.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferg View Post
    The void elves didn't want to be with the Horde because they disagreed with the restrictions placed on their usage of void magic, right? So why would it make any sense for them to be a part of the Horde, when they literally left because they were being discriminated against?
    They did not leave on their own volition: they were kicked out.

    The blood elves who eventually became void elves were exiled from Silvermoon and the Horde because they were researching the void. They joined the Alliance because Alleria saved them and because the Alliance accepted them, instead of kicking them out like Horde did.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2019-05-29 at 08:13 PM.
    Is there anything from vanilla WoW you are not looking forward to despite your hype for Classic? Come and tell us what it is.

  15. #11075
    Warchief FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yzak View Post
    Thanks for agreeing and proving my point?
    You actually proved his point. Like how Goldshire isn't just some blacksmith shack and an inn in lore. It's more than that. Which means what we see in-game is actually more than what's shown in-game.

    And in case you didn't understand, he was making the point that saying "High Elves aren't populous enough" but then continually using them in various situations is the disconnect.

    This disconnect exists and it is why it's easy to look at that type of sentiment ("there aren't enough") as false and weak, regardless of it's been said by Blizzard or not. It's not the first time they've been wrong about things they've said.

  16. #11076
    Mechagnome Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    They did not leave on their own volition: they were kicked out.

    The blood elves who eventually became void elves were exiled from Silvermoon and the Horde because they were researching the void. They joined the Alliance because Alleria saved them and because the Alliance accepted them, instead of kicking them out like Horde did.
    These ain't my blood elves, Blizzard, what have you done!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    You actually proved his point. Like how Goldshire isn't just some blacksmith shack and an inn in lore. It's more than that. Which means what we see in-game is actually more than what's shown in-game.

    And in case you didn't understand, he was making the point that saying "High Elves aren't populous enough" but then continually using them in various situations is the disconnect.

    This disconnect exists and it is why it's easy to look at that type of sentiment ("there aren't enough") as false and weak, regardless of it's been said by Blizzard or not. It's not the first time they've been wrong about things they've said.
    I would love to see Gadgetzan, Goldshire, Ratchet, or Booty Bay all fleshed out.

    Or the Blood elven towns, omg they would be fantastic!

  17. #11077
    I am genuinely curious where Pro HE's would place themselves or what they would add to the following.
    If the Pro High Elf position were placed on a continuum, where would you fall?

    (1)-----(2)-----(3)-----(4)-----(5)-----(6)

    1. Races should be completely and totally distinct. (Orc's and Humans basically)
    2. Ok, Elves we can make a little different. The Alliance Elves will be darker colored and taller and the Horde Elves will be slightly shorter and fair skinned (TBC)
    3. Ok, but what if the Horde wants to play as a darker/taller elf and the Alliance wants to play as the shorter/prettier elf? (BFA)
    4. No, the Alliance wants even prettier elves. Lighter skin options for Void Elves and maybe less tentacled hair (Compromise 1)
    5. ??????? (Compromise 2)
    6. I want a High Elf. Nothing short of the Blue Eyed "Blood Elf" model that I have seen in the game since Vanilla/BC/Warcraft 2/Warcraft 3/Whatever.(Compromise 3)

    On this continuum, Blizzard settled on #3. There is some give and take, but both factions got different races that have similarities to the other faction.
    Some in the forums have argued for #4. More options to Void Elves. Others have argued for nothing short of #6. Some have alluded to an Option #5, but I haven't seen a satisfactory option (tattoos and hair wouldn't be enough to differentiate a playable race [again, you are free to disagree])

    Where would you place yourself? What could be a reasonable Option #5 (More than more options for Void Elves, but short of a Blue Eyed Blood Elf on the Alliance)?

  18. #11078
    Mechagnome Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neverafter View Post
    I am genuinely curious where Pro HE's would place themselves or what they would add to the following.
    If the Pro High Elf position were placed on a continuum, where would you fall?

    (1)-----(2)-----(3)-----(4)-----(5)-----(6)

    1. Races should be completely and totally distinct. (Orc's and Humans basically)
    2. Ok, Elves we can make a little different. The Alliance Elves will be darker colored and taller and the Horde Elves will be slightly shorter and fair skinned (TBC)
    3. Ok, but what if the Horde wants to play as a darker/taller elf and the Alliance wants to play as the shorter/prettier elf? (BFA)
    4. No, the Alliance wants even prettier elves. Lighter skin options for Void Elves and maybe less tentacled hair (Compromise 1)
    5. ??????? (Compromise 2)
    6. I want a High Elf. Nothing short of the Blue Eyed "Blood Elf" model that I have seen in the game since Vanilla/BC/Warcraft 2/Warcraft 3/Whatever.(Compromise 3)

    On this continuum, Blizzard settled on #3. There is some give and take, but both factions got different races that have similarities to the other faction.
    Some in the forums have argued for #4. More options to Void Elves. Others have argued for nothing short of #6. Some have alluded to an Option #5, but I haven't seen a satisfactory option (tattoos and hair wouldn't be enough to differentiate a playable race [again, you are free to disagree])

    Where would you place yourself? What could be a reasonable Option #5 (More than more options for Void Elves, but short of a Blue Eyed Blood Elf on the Alliance)?
    Your first mistake is thinking that HE requesters have to fill an unprofessional and biased questionary.

    There is plenty of commentary for you to make your personal opinion on what we want.

    In my case i just want a part of the alliance to be made playable.

  19. #11079
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Your first mistake is thinking that HE requesters have to fill an unprofessional and biased questionary.

    There is plenty of commentary for you to make your personal opinion on what we want.

    In my case i just want a part of the alliance to be made playable.
    So you don't have an answer. That's fine.

    Perhaps someone else would like to contribute to the conversation.

  20. #11080
    Quote Originally Posted by Neverafter View Post
    Blood Elves are High Elves. Void Elves are Blood Elves.

    Void Elves are High Elves.

    So, yea, I do want fair skin options for the Alliance version of High Elves.
    Blood Elves in the game are only called Blodd Elves. Void Elves in the game are only called Void Elves. High Elves in the game are only called High Elves. Never are these terms used interchangeably, they are always being referred to specific groups. You are being deliberately obtuse by claiming otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverafter View Post
    I am genuinely curious where Pro HE's would place themselves or what they would add to the following.
    If the Pro High Elf position were placed on a continuum, where would you fall?

    (1)-----(2)-----(3)-----(4)-----(5)-----(6)

    1. Races should be completely and totally distinct. (Orc's and Humans basically)
    2. Ok, Elves we can make a little different. The Alliance Elves will be darker colored and taller and the Horde Elves will be slightly shorter and fair skinned (TBC)
    3. Ok, but what if the Horde wants to play as a darker/taller elf and the Alliance wants to play as the shorter/prettier elf? (BFA)
    4. No, the Alliance wants even prettier elves. Lighter skin options for Void Elves and maybe less tentacled hair (Compromise 1)
    5. ??????? (Compromise 2)
    6. I want a High Elf. Nothing short of the Blue Eyed "Blood Elf" model that I have seen in the game since Vanilla/BC/Warcraft 2/Warcraft 3/Whatever.(Compromise 3)

    On this continuum, Blizzard settled on #3. There is some give and take, but both factions got different races that have similarities to the other faction.
    Some in the forums have argued for #4. More options to Void Elves. Others have argued for nothing short of #6. Some have alluded to an Option #5, but I haven't seen a satisfactory option (tattoos and hair wouldn't be enough to differentiate a playable race [again, you are free to disagree])

    Where would you place yourself? What could be a reasonable Option #5 (More than more options for Void Elves, but short of a Blue Eyed Blood Elf on the Alliance)?
    These options are quite meaningless and if you payed attention to the topic, you would have known that. What many people ask and where the main debate is is that people ask for High Elves. High Elves that are already in the game lore-wise. That's it. In game they can look however Blizzard sees fit, as long as it is consistent with lore. They can use their current Blood elf models, they can change their models and base them on Night Elf models instead, they can make their own models or give some modifications to their current ones. Ultimately it doesn't matter. As long as they are High Elves and look like High Elves are supposed to look like. Some obviously do want them to be exactly as Blood Elves with blue eyes model-wise but from what I've seen, only a small minority of pro-High Elvers have this requirement.

    I personally don't give a damn about Blood Elf model silhouettes and Blood Elf model animations, and considering that Void Elves only share that with High Elves, they do absolutely nothing for me. Giving Void Elves a fair skin would be akin to giving Draenei fair skin - not only ridiculous, but also completely irrelevant.

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