Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

He says that the idea is that some elves are interested and they will eventually find a way to join the void elves. Stop jumping to conclusions over something that has not been shown and therefore has no evidence to support yet. You have nothing tangeable to prove it is happening right now.

The source of the question was the mismatch in game between Void Elf numbers, between those initially transformed and those we see. Attempting to divorce his answer from the question, so as to reinterpret the answer however you wish, is an intellectually dishonest approach. He was not asked about the non transformed elves hanging out in Telrogus.

He was asked 'where do the numbers come from?'.

We also see that the Void Elves are capable of converting other lifeforms into Void based variants, specifically the Ravasaurs in the relevant quest during the Alliance assault on Zuldazar.

Evidence therefore that void elves are capable of transforming other beings into void based variants by blasting them with void energy.
Evidence in the mismatch between Void Elf numbers in game and the initial transformation.
Evidence in that the senior narrative designer has said they can expand their numbers.

[Doffen]

So you are admitting that he is saying Void Elves can convert other Elves, and you are admitting that because he is a senior developer those words clearly have meaning yet because he didn't explicitly take the time to say Alliance High Elves, that is the get out card?

Frankly if you've come this far in accepting that he said what he said it seems almost obtuse to pretend that Alliance High Elves are not being converted, particularly given the presence of void curious Alliance High Elves within Tel'rogus and the fact that in the interview Moorgard used the generic 'elves' rather than specifying only Blood Elves.

No, I didn't say that, I am saying that he is saying that other elves are studying the void, and that other elves might convert to void elf. That's frankly all he said and everything else is speculations so far. The answer he gave is vague, and it's most likely because the devs doesn't really know how to deal with this, yet.

What I have said earlier is that I understand what he means, but the answer he gave isn't a real answer, and that you are wrong for taking that as an WoG statement for Alliance High Elves being turned into Void Elf, which is just pure speculations so far. That's the issue, and what's obtuse is that you don't want to acknowledge that and don't want to understand what I am saying.

I can see what he means with that answer is something else than saying oh he means that Alliance Void Elves are getting turned into Void Elves which is what you are doing. Pure speculations.

[Obelisk Kai]

No, I didn't say that, I am saying that he is saying that other elves are studying the void, and that other elves might convert to void elf. That's frankly all he said and everything else is speculations so far. The answer he gave is vague, and it's most likely because the devs doesn't really know how to deal with this, yet.

What I have said earlier is that I understand what he means, but the answer he gave isn't a real answer, and that you are wrong for taking that as an WoG statement for Alliance High Elves being turned into Void Elf, which is just pure speculations so far. That's the issue, and what's obtuse is that you don't want to acknowledge that and don't want to understand what I am saying.

I can see what he means with that answer is something else than saying oh he means that Alliance Void Elves are getting turned into Void Elves which is what you are doing. Pure speculations.

I, of course, disagree. Because it isn't just about the answer, it's about the question. The question contextualizes the answer. Attempting to rely on the answer alone leaves it open to spin and misinterpretation. Including the question reduces the numbers of interpretations that make sense to pretty much one.

To clarify, he was asked If they come from a small group of Silvermoon Exiles, how are they an Allied Race? Where do the numbers come from?.

And his first words in response?

“They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues.

Which of course is meant to show that the group who began as a small band of transformed researchers has expanded.

So, as I put to Flubberpuddy above, can you produce an interpretation that takes account of the following facts...

a.) The questioner was asking where Void Elf numbers come from
b.) Moorgard's answer began with the statement that the Void Elves start as a small group, therefore leading the reader to expect their numbers have increased since that start
c.) He talks about the Elves, not specifying Alliance High Elves or Blood Elves, just Elves, who have sought the Void Elves out to see if they can become Void Elves too (undergo a similar process)....

...that comes up with a different interpretation than they are able to reproduce by converting other Elves? Because I felt if one was out there, someone would have put forward by now.

So far I have Moorgard was being vague (which is only an explanation if you believe he wasn't answering the question) or that when asked about Void Elf numbers, he launched in an unconnected discussion of other Elves who have come to study the void but not become Void Elves...which would have no impact on Void Elf numbers and be completely unrelated to the question.
But if someone out there thinks they have a better explanation then I am all ears.

[elbleuet]

We also see that the Void Elves are capable of converting other lifeforms into Void based variants, specifically the Ravasaurs in the relevant quest during the Alliance assault on Zuldazar.

What ? Weren't those Ravasaurs already dead when void elves converted them?

[Obelisk Kai]

What ? Weren't those Ravasaurs already dead when void elves converted them?

No, that's the ravasaur at the end of the Alliances quests for the assault and that was a reanimated skeleton.

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=54138/ritual-rampage

The ravasaurs being converted are in the Wrath of the Ravasaur quest. The Void Elf voidshapers are blasting eggs which results in void ravasaurs.

https://www.wowhead.com/quest=54701/...f-the-ravasaur

https://www.wow-petopia.com/npc.php?id=148871

They are classed as aberrations, rather than Undead. Which might means that Void Elves are also aberrations but are classed as Humanoid for the same reason Forsaken are classed as Humanoid rather than undead, gameplay mechanics, but that is just speculation.

[Doffen]

I, of course, disagree. Because it isn't just about the answer, it's about the question. The question contextualizes the answer. Attempting to rely on the answer alone leaves it open to spin and misinterpretation. Including the question reduces the numbers of interpretations that make sense to pretty much one.

To clarify, he was asked If they come from a small group of Silvermoon Exiles, how are they an Allied Race? Where do the numbers come from?.

And his first words in response?

“They start out as a small group,” Danuser continues.

Which of course is meant to show that the group who began as a small band of transformed researchers has expanded.

So, as I put to Flubberpuddy above, can you produce an interpretation that takes account of the following facts...

a.) The questioner was asking where Void Elf numbers come from
b.) Moorgard's answer began with the statement that the Void Elves start as a small group, therefore leading the reader to expect their numbers have increased since that start
c.) He talks about the Elves, not specifying Alliance High Elves or Blood Elves, just Elves, who have sought the Void Elves out to see if they can become Void Elves too (undergo a similar process)....

...that comes up with a different interpretation than they are able to reproduce by converting other Elves? Because I felt if one was out there, someone would have put forward by now.

So far I have Moorgard was being vague (which is only an explanation if you believe he wasn't answering the question) or that when asked about Void Elf numbers, he launched in an unconnected discussion of other Elves who have come to study the void but not become Void Elves...which would have no impact on Void Elf numbers and be completely unrelated to the question.
But if someone out there thinks they have a better explanation then I am all ears.

The thing is that they don't know, or haven't gotten a good enough explanation how Void Elves will increase in numbers to give us an actual answer, be it in game or outside it. And as long they have not, there is just speculation. When talking about this I do of course take the question into account, but the answer isn't answering the question. It vaguely says that there are elves that are interested in void magic.

For all we know, only other Blood Elves will turn into Void Elf, because he didn't answer the question with:
They start out as a small group, but those who already turned into the void are now recruiting both High Elves from the Alliance, and Blood Elves of Silvermoon. But he didn't say that, he even said they are not really recruiting. So far we don't know if, or who the Void Elf are recruiting to increase the Void Elf population.

If WoG is something we can interpret as we want, what's the meaning of the so called WoG then? It's just speculations before we get an actual answer of who or if the Void Elves are recruiting. Saying that other elves are interested in void magic doesn't say much. I am interested in football, I am literally delving into it and have been for many years, but I don't transform my body to be in super-shape to start playing it again. Being interested into void magic does not mean that they are going to be Void Elves.

[Ielenia]

Secondly, word of god is not and never is an eternal absolute. It is an absolute truth until contradicted by future word of god.

Then you should stop using that sentence. "Word of God" implies that the answer given is absolute and "set in stone", i.e. cannot and would not be changed. The moment you say "word of God" it heavily implies that what was said is static and will never change.

Evidence therefore that void elves are capable of transforming other beings into void based variants by blasting them with void energy.

Except those are beasts. We don't know the extent of what happened to their minds as they are transformed. On top of that, it heavily implies that the void also heavily speeds up their growth so they're adult in a matter of minutes, at most, considering there's adult "void-saurs" around, already, and that again we have no indication of the effects on their bodies are.

That they can do that to ravasaurs is not an indication that they can already do the same to other elves in a safe manner.

[delus]

The source of the question was the mismatch in game between Void Elf numbers, between those initially transformed and those we see. Attempting to divorce his answer from the question, so as to reinterpret the answer however you wish, is an intellectually dishonest approach. He was not asked about the non transformed elves hanging out in Telrogus.

He was asked 'where do the numbers come from?'.

We also see that the Void Elves are capable of converting other lifeforms into Void based variants, specifically the Ravasaurs in the relevant quest during the Alliance assault on Zuldazar.

Evidence therefore that void elves are capable of transforming other beings into void based variants by blasting them with void energy.
Evidence in the mismatch between Void Elf numbers in game and the initial transformation.
Evidence in that the senior narrative designer has said they can expand their numbers.

Nice try. You've gone over all that. Or at least tried to push your theories

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Then you should stop using that sentence. "Word of God" implies that the answer given is absolute and "set in stone", i.e. cannot and would not be changed. The moment you say "word of God" it heavily implies that what was said is static and will never change.


Except those are beasts. We don't know the extent of what happened to their minds as they are transformed. On top of that, it heavily implies that the void also heavily speeds up their growth so they're adult in a matter of minutes, at most, considering there's adult "void-saurs" around, already, and that again we have no indication of the effects on their bodies are.

That they can do that to ravasaurs is not an indication that they can already do the same to other elves in a safe manner.

It's not even word of god, it's word of god through his own interpretation. As for the ravasaurs, they are basically just meat puppets being used by void entities.

[Aldo Hawk]

I can't believe there are still people giving so much credit and importance of Void elves being able to turn others.

Goddamn guys, seriously. As I said, only a fool would not understand that unless the entirety of the High elves pass through something that makes them disappear or whatever that makes them CEASE TO EXIST, the High elf request will still have it's reason to be. It's so simple that it demonstrates how much bullshit some are inclined to take just to go against it.

Seriously... There are some who can't stand the simple concept of High elves being wanted because they have been seen in the lore and in the game as part of the Alliance, even WAY WAY WAY after the majority of their homeland turned to a new chapter into the Horde.

Void elves turning High elves would not change shit, High elves would still be there, existing, and that's what the whole request is all about. Seriously, all this argument of Void elves turning whatever is pure bullshit that do not lead to anywhere. It's the biggest red herring I have seen in the entire thread.

Yes, Moorgard's response was a clear non-answer. It's totally ridiculous to try to push it as a truth. We will have to SEE what will happen with the Void elves. What Moorgard said -did not- clarify shit -at all-. He just added onto what we ALREADY KNEW, that there are other Thalassian elves learning about void magic with them because they seek for them after the news about Alleria, the stupid decisions of Rommath, and the possibility of learning about this magical force in an advanced and secure place.

WOW WHAT A REVELATION WOW OMFG HOW INCREDIBLE ISN'T IT?!?!

Seriously, don't answer anymore about the red herring that is the hypothetical Voidification, as even it if it's true, it doesn't even lead to anywhere important to the discussion.

Are High elves there? Simply existing? We want them. Dancing around this fact is pathetic.

[Strippling]

I can't believe there are still people giving so much credit and importance of Void elves being able to turn others.

Goddamn guys, seriously. As I said, only a fool would not understand that unless the entirety of the High elves pass through something that makes them disappear or whatever that makes them CEASE TO EXIST, the High elf request will still have it's reason to be. It's so simple that it demonstrates how much bullshit some are inclined to take just to go against it.

Seriously... There are some who can't stand the simple concept of High elves being wanted because they have been seen in the lore and in the game as part of the Alliance, even WAY WAY WAY after the majority of their homeland turned to a new chapter into the Horde.

Void elves turning High elves would not change shit, High elves would still be there, existing, and that's what the whole request is all about. Seriously, all this argument of Void elves turning whatever is pure bullshit that do not lead to anywhere. It's the biggest red herring I have seen in the entire thread.

Yes, Moorgard's response was a clear non-answer. It's totally ridiculous to try to push it as a truth. We will have to SEE what will happen with the Void elves. What Moorgard said -did not- clarify shit -at all-. He just added onto what we ALREADY KNEW, that there are other Thalassian elves learning about void magic with them because they seek for them after the news about Alleria, the stupid decisions of Rommath, and the possibility of learning about this magical force in an advanced and secure place.

WOW WHAT A REVELATION WOW OMFG HOW INCREDIBLE ISN'T IT?!?!

Seriously, don't answer anymore about the red herring that is the hypothetical Voidification, as even it if it's true, it doesn't even lead to anywhere important to the discussion.

Are High elves there? Simply existing? We want them. Dancing around this fact is pathetic.

What baffles me is players who are happy to neglect faction identity and race uniqueness all because they want a Horde race available on the Alliance too. And it's "the biggest red herring" that these players claim it's all about the lore, not the aesthetics. If you truly appreciated the lore then you'd accept that A) blood elves are high elves, and are THE high elves of WoW, and B) alliance high elves are a dying breed (unlike the void elves who appear to be growing in ranks) who are becoming more n more 'human' as each year passes, as they're assimilating into human society and slowly fading away.

If high elves were to be playable this would suggest they're thriving, which we know is not the case. We have developers stating this, and we have in game events emphasizing this (such as Elisande's observations). As time passes, alliance high elves are fading away. But that's ok, because the high elven legacy and future continues on through the blood elves.. which was and is Blizzard's intention. A handful of high elves amongst the alliance do exist, but they are not progressing or have a society as other races or ARs have. This is why the conversation about void elves growing their ranks is important to the discussion. It shows the void elves may have started small, but they're growing and progressing as a group. The same cannot be said for alliance high elves... it's pure head canon if you think they're progressing as a collective group of elves. Again, we have senior developers and the game itself showing us that they're a dwindling group, a remnant of the past... their future (as in high elven future) continues on through the blood elves and to a lesser degree the void elves. It's a hard pill to swallow for some, but it's the reality. Blood elves are our high elves. As such, alliance high elves being playable would directly impede on the uniqueness and identity of the blood elves. That's the reality of this debate, and why alliance high elves are likely to never playable.

[Goldielocks]

Good news Helf zealots. It's not a coincidence that High Elves are being rumored as an allied race at the same time of the factions breaking down in 9.0. So, the devs are definitely sticking to their guns on faction identity, but hey at least you get your Helves!!!!!!!!

[Aldo Hawk]

Don't you realize -Alliance- High elves are -Alliance- identity? Is that so hard to understand?

Honestly, there's not much to do with someone who denies such fact.

High elves are not Blood elves. Sorry, it's the truth.

[Obelisk Kai]

The thing is that they don't know, or haven't gotten a good enough explanation how Void Elves will increase in numbers to give us an actual answer, be it in game or outside it. And as long they have not, there is just speculation. When talking about this I do of course take the question into account, but the answer isn't answering the question. It vaguely says that there are elves that are interested in void magic.

For all we know, only other Blood Elves will turn into Void Elf, because he didn't answer the question with:
They start out as a small group, but those who already turned into the void are now recruiting both High Elves from the Alliance, and Blood Elves of Silvermoon. But he didn't say that, he even said they are not really recruiting. So far we don't know if, or who the Void Elf are recruiting to increase the Void Elf population.

If WoG is something we can interpret as we want, what's the meaning of the so called WoG then? It's just speculations before we get an actual answer of who or if the Void Elves are recruiting. Saying that other elves are interested in void magic doesn't say much. I am interested in football, I am literally delving into it and have been for many years, but I don't transform my body to be in super-shape to start playing it again. Being interested into void magic does not mean that they are going to be Void Elves.

I believe claiming he wasn't answering the question is not a realistic counter-point. He was answering the question. The wording he uses shows he was answering the question.

'They START as a small group' he said. He has just been asked about Void Elf numbers. The source of the question is the common point raised about Void Elves, how can a group so small in number at the initial transformation be so numerous in game? Phrasing it as 'they start' in response to a question about numbers immediately conditions the reader to assume that if they start as a small group, then that small group has since gotten larger.

He then segues to talking about the 'Elves', note he does not clarify either Blood Elves or Alliance High Elves, he just says Elves who have heard about them, who are seeking them out and who are looking to undergo a similar process. Remember, the answer on this point is still about Void Elf numbers. He said they start as a small group, leading to the expectation they are expanding in numbers. He is now talking about the Elves who are seeking them out to see if they can undergo a similar process. At no point has he said that that process is unavailable...if that process was unavailable it would make the entire answer nonsensical, as Elves who cannot turn into Void Elves are not increasing Void Elf numbers, which is the point of the question. His final line on this point is as follows

They’re not ... recruiting, necessarily, but they’re open to those who show a similar interest.”

Which means while they are not out they proselytising, they are open to other Elves joining them who want to do so. And he is not talking about studying the void...he is talking about Void Elf numbers. Attempting to confuse an answer regarding Void Elf numbers so that he talks about other Elves who want to study the void, in other words not answering the question, strikes me as a deliberately wrong reading of what he is saying.

That he answered the question he was asked, and that the obvious reading of that answer, that Void Elves are turning other willing Elves into Void Elves and thus expanding their numbers, is the simplest explanation.

Occam's razor applies here.

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Then you should stop using that sentence. "Word of God" implies that the answer given is absolute and "set in stone", i.e. cannot and would not be changed. The moment you say "word of God" it heavily implies that what was said is static and will never change.

On multiple occasions I have said that Word of God is an absolute until contradicted by future word of god. The thing about it though is that only Blizzard can use word of god, we can't. Until such time as it is contradicted, it is absolute truth.

Except those are beasts. We don't know the extent of what happened to their minds as they are transformed. On top of that, it heavily implies that the void also heavily speeds up their growth so they're adult in a matter of minutes, at most, considering there's adult "void-saurs" around, already, and that again we have no indication of the effects on their bodies are.

That they can do that to ravasaurs is not an indication that they can already do the same to other elves in a safe manner.

It shows that they can void-ify beings and not convert them into ethereals. The principles of void-ifying a beast and void-ifying an elf are similar, considering we have seen both processes and both involved being bombarded by void energies.

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I can't believe there are still people giving so much credit and importance of Void elves being able to turn others.

Goddamn guys, seriously. As I said, only a fool would not understand that unless the entirety of the High elves pass through something that makes them disappear or whatever that makes them CEASE TO EXIST, the High elf request will still have it's reason to be. It's so simple that it demonstrates how much bullshit some are inclined to take just to go against it.

Seriously... There are some who can't stand the simple concept of High elves being wanted because they have been seen in the lore and in the game as part of the Alliance, even WAY WAY WAY after the majority of their homeland turned to a new chapter into the Horde.

Void elves turning High elves would not change shit, High elves would still be there, existing, and that's what the whole request is all about. Seriously, all this argument of Void elves turning whatever is pure bullshit that do not lead to anywhere. It's the biggest red herring I have seen in the entire thread.

Yes, Moorgard's response was a clear non-answer. It's totally ridiculous to try to push it as a truth. We will have to SEE what will happen with the Void elves. What Moorgard said -did not- clarify shit -at all-. He just added onto what we ALREADY KNEW, that there are other Thalassian elves learning about void magic with them because they seek for them after the news about Alleria, the stupid decisions of Rommath, and the possibility of learning about this magical force in an advanced and secure place.

WOW WHAT A REVELATION WOW OMFG HOW INCREDIBLE ISN'T IT?!?!

Seriously, don't answer anymore about the red herring that is the hypothetical Voidification, as even it if it's true, it doesn't even lead to anywhere important to the discussion.

Are High elves there? Simply existing? We want them. Dancing around this fact is pathetic.

The point about Void Elves being able convert is key to one of the core arguments of the pro High Elf community.

The accusation is that you seek Alliance High Elves solely for the aesthetics and culture of a group identical to a core race of the Horde, the sole difference between the two groups being political opinion. The defense is that that is not the case, what you seek is an Elf that has never served the Horde, never betrayed the Alliance and who has served the Alliance for as long as possible.

If that defense is true, then aesthetics and culture should not matter. Therefore, being able to roleplay a Void Elf as a former Alliance High Elf who has embraced the Void means that the lore objection has been met and that Alliance High Elves are not required in their own right.

If Void Elves do include former Alliance High Elves, and yet are still rejected, it becomes clear to all that the lore objection was a fig leaf and that it really is all about the aesthetics and culture of a Horde race.

[Amaterasu65]

It's pretty sad seeing one person filling almost 600 forum pages objecting to pixels being allowed to a group of players, with this kind of arguements. Legit cringe.

[Obelisk Kai]

Don't you realize -Alliance- High elves are -Alliance- identity? Is that so hard to understand?

Honestly, there's not much to do with someone who denies such fact.

High elves are not Blood elves. Sorry, it's the truth.

No, they are not a part of the Alliance's identity. There are simply too few Alliance High Elves left. They have no leader within the upper ranks of the Alliance. Most of them live in the neutral city of Dalaran.

The identity of the Alliance is Human (both types), Dwarvish (both types), Draenei (both types), Gnomish (both types?), Worgen, Night Elven with some Pandaren and Void Elves making up the fringes.

Alliance High Elves are equivalent to the Scryers, a non Horde group of thalssian elves living in a neutral city pursuing their own ends. Alliance High Elves are as different from the Blood Elves as the Scryers are.
Alliance High Elves have as much right to be regarded as a distinct race as the Scryers do.

[RangerDaz]

Good news Helf zealots. It's not a coincidence that High Elves are being rumored as an allied race at the same time of the factions breaking down in 9.0. So, the devs are definitely sticking to their guns on faction identity, but hey at least you get your Helves!!!!!!!!

Are you talking about one of the "leaks"?

Because as we know from the past, "leaks" are usually made by attention seeking trolls... being 1-2% originated from true leakers.

Btw, i'm all for High Elves in the Alliance, just not Void Elves with High Elf skins.
Its just like giving a Wildhammer skin to Dark Iron Dwarves, it just doesnt make sense lorewise.

[Obelisk Kai]

It's pretty sad seeing one person filling almost 600 forum pages objecting to pixels being allowed to a group of players, with this kind of arguements. Legit cringe.

On the contrary they are denying themselves. Those pixels are already available to anyone who wants them.

[Amaterasu65]

No, they are not a part of the Alliance's identity. There are simply too few Alliance High Elves left. They have no leader within the upper ranks of the Alliance. Most of them live in the neutral city of Dalaran.

The identity of the Alliance is Human (both types), Dwarvish (both types), Draenei (both types), Gnomish (both types?), Worgen, Night Elven with some Pandaren and Void Elves making up the fringes.

Alliance High Elves are equivalent to the Scryers, a non Horde group of thalssian elves living in a neutral city pursuing their own ends. Alliance High Elves are as different from the Blood Elves as the Scryers are.
Alliance High Elves have as much right to be regarded as a distinct race as the Scryers do.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Silver_Covenant

Totally neutral.

[Doffen]

Which means while they are not out they proselytising, they are open to other Elves joining them who want to do so. And he is not talking about studying the void...he is talking about Void Elf numbers. Attempting to confuse an answer regarding Void Elf numbers so that he talks about other Elves who want to study the void, in other words not answering the question, strikes me as a deliberately wrong reading of what he is saying.

You can stop reaching. He stated that other elves are interested in the void, you use the word studying, as well as interested, both legit words to use on this matter, I have used both, you are using both. That you even try to make it so that I confuse his answer with something else when it was part of the quote is silly. It's a non-answer. You are once again trying to refute other peoples argument by twisting the words, both from posters and the actual quote. It is not stated that any other elves than blood elves are turning into void elves, yet. And stop saying it is, when even WoG don't have something that proves that point.

He is indeed talking about Void Elf numbers, he just don't have the real answer to the actual question. It's speculating. Again, it's not shown anywhere that Alliance High Elves are being turned into Void Elves. As long as it isn't, you and the rest of us are speculating.

[scubi666stacy]

Don't you realize -Alliance- High elves are -Alliance- identity? Is that so hard to understand?

Honestly, there's not much to do with someone who denies such fact.

High elves are not Blood elves. Sorry, it's the truth.

They are not since the Alliance stabbed them in their backs in WC III.
End of story.

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https://wow.gamepedia.com/Silver_Covenant

Totally neutral.

Still they belong to the Kirin Tor, and are there to represent them in the game. They just serve the same function as the Sunreavers, being the "city contacts" for the two factions.