Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

If you want to talk about relevancy, then similar to how you express that Eredar Blizzard have established have "the past thirteen years of established lore including hundreds of characters, quests and multiple events", then we have that for Alliance High Elves.

Because regardless of being the same "race" (high elf), Blizzard has established for "the past thirteen years of established lore including hundreds of characters, quests and multiple events" that High Elves are a separate group from Blood Elves.

It's only in this recent time that they've suddenly equated "Blood Elves are High Elves" in order to focus on the recently released Void Elves. It appears as an attempt for someone trying to dust their mess under the rug as you see in some cartoons.

The point regarding the Eredar was that they could be retconned precisely because the story had not been nailed down in game. Now, because the story hadn't been nailed down in game, did that make the background for the Eredar expressed in the Warcraft manuals any less canon?
No. At one point, Eredar were always demons whose evil had corrupted Sargeras and all anyone arguing that point had to do was point at a primary source material to prove themselves right.
Yet as soon as Draenei were introduced into the game and that lore reinterpreted, Blizzard were stuck with it. While the theoretical authority exists for them to completely retcon this change and revert the story, in practice they cannot as the change would not only be too great, it would snap suspension of disbelief.

In regards to the Alliance High Elves, we have a slightly different scenario, in that everything said out of game is supported by everything said in game. Blood Elves clearly are High Elves, and so High Elves are playable. Alliance High Elves are a tiny group who only appear to play even a small role in the story when Dalaran appears. And the number of Alliance High Elves participating in the faction war...you can count them on one hand and you don't even need your thumb.

Now they have the authority to do this, that's not what anyone is questioning. But the game itself, the game the developers have implemented things into speak of High Elves and Blood Elves as separate entities.

A group of Elves, living in a city that proclaims it's neutrality yet who have no loyalty to the Horde...so when will the Scryers get to become an Allied race? 'But they are just Blood Elves and Blood Elves are already playable!' is the response. A correct one too, the political neutrality of the Scryers is an irrelevant factor, and the fact they are identical to Blood Elves means making them an Allied race in their own right would be pointless.

Another group of Elves, living in a city that proclaims it's neutrality yet who have no loyalty to the Horde...well it's the Silver Covenant this time. And the one difference between this politically separate group of thalassian elves and the Scryers is that they express an affinity for the Alliance. But the same reasoning applies, they are not different enough to qualify as an Allied race when Blood Elves are playable.

So, once again, political differences are NOT enough to justify including what would be a duplicate of a major Horde race within the Alliance.

Therefore, if the game they're developing is showing one thing but then they're saying another then incongruity exists and that is no fault of players.

It's entirely the fault of the players if the players insist on seeing what they want to see. Nothing in game and nothing that has been said out of game are incongruous. Alliance High Elves are a tiny group of political exiles who congregate in Dalaran and who appear when Dalaran plays a role in the story, much as when we did Siege of Orgrimmar a lot of Orcs were involved. It matches the game world and is not meant to signal anything.

That they recently say "if you wanna play a high elf then play a blood elf" is no different than someone before saying "if you wanna play a paladin you must play alliance" or "if you wanna play a purple tall elf you must play alliance" or "if you wanna play a straight back character you must play alliance" etc etc all in the past.

None of those are remotely comparable. The Paladin/Shaman division broke down because it was a bad idea that was unsustainable in the face of class development. The Horde's purple elf isn't a clone of the Alliance's purple elf, while a High Elf would be a clone of a Blood Elf (and this is in fact the entire problem) and the straight backed thing...that just sort of went away with new races and if it was ever a thing then I can't recall it from vanilla.

And this is why Blizzard was heavily criticized even by media members in the community with their initial High Elf response in that Q&A and probably why Alex Afrasiabi later that same year said, "yeah it's possible" when asked if Void Elves could have High Elf skin tones.

No, Afrasiabi was asked if something was possible, he said it was and you'll find most hypotheticals in a fantasy world are. I would also question the implication that the entire media was against Ion's response. I know Taliesin put out a video saying he had issues with it, but Bellular gaming had a brief comment in his roundup of that Q and A stating his agreement that Blood Elves are High Elves and that High Elves are playable.

Because I have yet to see a movement as big as the High Elf movement in terms of anything relating solely to Void Elves. Logically, what else could Afrasiabi's "don't give up hope" emphasis be relating to if not the High Elf request.

Firstly, the movement is not big. It's several hundred people tops. The topics on any forum are always driven by the same people posting over and over and over again, as we do here. Secondly, as large as you think the demand for Alliance High Elves is, this idea that they are the most requested Allied race, I think it should be food for thought that if they ARE the most requested Allied race, then they are also the Allied race that faces the most opposition. As we know from that CM blue post regarding the thread locking that appeared a few weeks ago, the feedback from those opposed REALLY is listened to as well.

Frankly I would wager Blizzard feels they went as far as they could in giving the Alliance Void Elves and that anything they do in future will be Void Elf related.

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You don't understand it at all. (Literally don't want to).

Simply put, your only explanation is that it comes from not accepting the way the story went.

Are you sure? Aren't there currently High elves on the Alliance? Claiming it's a retcon shows how far from the point you are.

You don't -want- to understand it.

The number of High Elves actually within the Alliance has proven to be very, very small. They are not participating in the war. Their absence, and their long association with the now neutral city of Dalaran, strongly indicates that they are putting Dalaran first.

As in for not wanting to understand it...this strikes me as an unmeetable test. The only way I think you would accept I 'understood' it would be for me to end up agreeing with you, because clearly once you explain it and the person really gets it, all they could do is agree with the flawless logic.

It is entirely possible for someone to understand an opposing point of view and still find it completely, hopelessly wrong.

As I believe your community is.

[Aldo Hawk]

And yet, even without having Dalaran or the Kirin'tor as part of the main storyline of the expansion, some High elves have been introduced as part of the Alliance war effort.

You clearly don't want to understand it. The reasons for the request presented by you are everything but the obvious, that's telling.

Is not about agreement, if the explanation of the request given by you is an attack on it with an added distorted narrative, that shows how much you don't want to understand any of it.

Is not surprising that the standard is also incredibly twisted and biased. Going by it. Where are the Ogres and Revantusk? The Taunka? We are at war!

But as always, the obvious is discarded because it tears apart the tower of cards.

They are not playable, there is 'where they are'. Make them playable and you will see them.

[Thalassian Bob]

Just a quick selfie of me and BAE on her last shift as a Dalaran guard before she heads to Telogrus with the other Wayfarers to Void it up:

Wish her luck!

[Ielenia]

A group of Elves, living in a city that proclaims it's neutrality yet who have no loyalty to the Horde...so when will the Scryers get to become an Allied race?

Are there really anyone wanting the blood elves from the Scryers to be made playable?

[Aldo Hawk]

Are there really anyone wanting the blood elves from the Scryers to be made playable?

It's simply cheap and vague argumentation.

Everyone knows what a High elf is.

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Wish her luck!

Is gonna die and become a disgusting dark-purple blob.

[Obelisk Kai]

You clearly don't want to understand it. The reasons for the request presented by you are everything but the obvious, that's telling.

Is not about agreement, if the explanation of the request given by you is an attack on it with an added distorted narrative, that shows how much you don't want to understand any of it.

Is not surprising that the standard is also incredibly twisted and biased. Going by it. Where are the Ogres and Revantusk? The Taunka? We are at war!

But as always, the obvious is discarded because it tears apart the tower of cards.

They are not playable, there is 'where they are'. Make them playable and you will see them.

As I said, 'understanding' is an unmeetable test, as only by agreement would you accept that I understand it.

As for the Ogres and Revantusk...who cares? No, honestly who really cares? The first two are such incredibly minor parts of the Horde that it is foolhardy to predict they would contribute. There is what, one Ogre village and one Revantusk village within the entire Horde? And in the fifteen years of WoW how often has a Revantusk troll shown up outside the Hinterlands to serve the Horde? How often has an Ogre from Stonemaul Hold shown up? The Ogres and the Forest Trolls have de facto left the Horde and the presence of a few individuals from those races within the Horde does not change that.

Ogres are NOT a Horde race. Forest Trolls are NOT a Horde race. Previous affiliation is not enough to claim them. They are independent forces within the world.

Finally, high elves are playable as blood elves. Stating 'high elves' are not playable is incorrect, they are simply playable on the Horde faction.

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Are there really anyone wanting the blood elves from the Scryers to be made playable?

Nobody wants it because the Scryers are Blood Elves and Blood Elves are playable, it would be redundant.

The Scryers are a group of thalassian elves who live in a neutral city and have no allegiance to the Horde but are identical to the Blood Elves in every other way.

The Silver Covenant are a group of thalassian elves who live in a neutral city, have no allegiance to the Horde, have an affinity to the Alliance, but are identical to the Blood Elves in every other way.

In other words, the Silver Covenant are in an extremely similar situation to the Scryers with the exception that rather than being neutral, they are partisan to the Alliance. The request for Alliance High Elves therefore rests on that political affinity towards the Alliance because that is the sole real difference, and as we know a political opinion is nowhere near enough to justify an Allied race.

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It's simply cheap and vague argumentation.

Everyone knows what a High elf is.

Chris Metzen in 2005 "Blood Elves are our High Elves"

Ion Hazzikostas in 2017 "Spoilers guys Blood Elves are pretty much High Elves...Void Elves are pretty much another flavour of High Elves"

Ion Hazzikostas in 2018 "Blood Elves kind of are High Elves...giving that race directly to the Alliance would have blurred a lot of the lines between the two factions"

Well Chris Metzen, the guy who literally wrote the book on Warcraft lore and Ion Hazzikostas the current game director are pretty clear on what a High Elf is and it looks like that rationale has held across a decade and a half.

[Doffen]

hris Metzen in 2005 "Blood Elves are our High Elves"

Ion Hazzikostas in 2017 "Spoilers guys Blood Elves are pretty much High Elves...Void Elves are pretty much another flavour of High Elves"

Ion Hazzikostas in 2018 "Blood Elves kind of are High Elves...giving that race directly to the Alliance would have blurred a lot of the lines between the two factions"

Well Chris Metzen, the guy who literally wrote the book on Warcraft lore and Ion Hazzikostas the current game director are pretty clear on what a High Elf is and it looks like that rationale has held across a decade and a half.

Pretty much High Elves, and Void Elves are another flavour of High Elves. So Void Elves are High Elves then, thought you said they were not. If not they are just a flavor, but then Blood Elves is just another flavor of High Elves as well. So what's gonna be? And don't do the "I interpret it differently than how it was said" stuff you did when it was up to discussion in the early days of this thread.

Blood Elves and Void Elves are High Elves. But not all High Elves are Blood Elves or Void Elves. Using both of Metzens and Ions quotes there, that's what you end up with. I mean, I have seen some pro-helfers say that High Elves are High Elves and then it means Alliance High Elves, but I disagree, Blood Elves are High Elves, just another flavour of the general High Elf race. The majority of the High Elven population are Blood Elf, let's not pretend otherwise. Let's not also pretend that they are the only High Elves in the game.

[Obelisk Kai]

Pretty much High Elves, and Void Elves are another flavour of High Elves. So Void Elves are High Elves then, thought you said they were not. If not they are just a flavor, but then Blood Elves is just another flavor of High Elves as well. So what's gonna be? And don't do the "I interpret it differently than how it was said" stuff you did when it was up to discussion in the early days of this thread.

I've been using the 'pretty much another flavour of High Elves' line for quite a while now. The nuance is that Void Elves are the variant, whereas Blood/Alliance high elves are the vanilla flavour. But Void Elves ARE a type of High Elves, just not THE high elves. That's the Blood/Alliance High Elves.

Blood Elves and Void Elves are High Elves. But not all High Elves are Blood Elves or Void Elves. Using both of Metzens and Ions quotes there, that's what you end up with. I mean, I have seen some pro-helfers say that High Elves are High Elves and then it means Alliance High Elves, but I disagree, Blood Elves are High Elves, just another flavour of the general High Elf race. The majority of the High Elven population are Blood Elf, let's not pretend otherwise. Let's not also pretend that they are the only High Elves in the game.

Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves are differentiated by a political opinion, beyond that they are the exact same race. Void Elves are differentiated from Blood/Alliance High Elves by so much more. Void Elves ARE another flavour of High Elf, but their distinction was added in an event we were witness to, their bombardment with void energies that triggered a physical transformation. This produced a level of differentiation on a physical and aesthetic level. They are now gray-blue-purple in skin tone, they have gray-blue-purple hair colour etc. They also wield unique void powers as a by-product of their transformation.

You cannot say Blood Elves are another flavour of high elves as you can with Void Elves. Blood Elves ARE High Elves, they are the definitive standard and we judge the level of Void Elf differentiation based on how much they have been separated from Blood Elves. Alliance High Elves have not been differentiated from Blood Elves at all beyond that political opinion and that is not enough.

[Doffen]

I've been using the 'pretty much another flavour of High Elves' line for quite a while now. The nuance is that Void Elves are the variant, whereas Blood/Alliance high elves are the vanilla flavour. But Void Elves ARE a type of High Elves, just not THE high elves. That's the Blood/Alliance High Elves.

So you are still interpreting it differently than what he said. Void Elves are just as much High Elves as Blood Elves. Void Elves are Blood Elves, your opinion doesn't change that. Both are flavours, or none are. It's the famous cake again. Choose one, or be called out on fallacy arguments.

Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves are differentiated by a political opinion, beyond that they are the exact same race. Void Elves are differentiated from Blood/Alliance High Elves by so much more. Void Elves ARE another flavour of High Elf, but their distinction was added in an event we were witness to, their bombardment with void energies that triggered a physical transformation. This produced a level of differentiation on a physical and aesthetic level. They are now gray-blue-purple in skin tone, they have gray-blue-purple hair colour etc. They also wield unique void powers as a by-product of their transformation.

Doesn't change the fact that they are still High Elves.

You cannot say Blood Elves are another flavour of high elves as you can with Void Elves. Blood Elves ARE High Elves, they are the definitive standard and we judge the level of Void Elf differentiation based on how much they have been separated from Blood Elves. Alliance High Elves have not been differentiated from Blood Elves at all beyond that political opinion and that is not enough.

I can definitely say that, since that's what Ion said. You don't agree with Ion's quotes then. Void Elves ARE High Elves, as much as Blood Elves. You either agree to that, or you don't really agree with what the dev's said about this. Maybe stop using those quotes.

[Aldo Hawk]

As I said, 'understanding' is an unmeetable test, as only by agreement would you accept that I understand it.

You have never explained the request outside derogatory commentary about it or without any kind of distortion on it. So no, you don't -want- to understand it.

As for the Ogres and Revantusk...who cares? No, honestly who really cares? The first two are such incredibly minor parts of the Horde that it is foolhardy to predict they would contribute. There is what, one Ogre village and one Revantusk village within the entire Horde? And in the fifteen years of WoW how often has a Revantusk troll shown up outside the Hinterlands to serve the Horde? How often has an Ogre from Stonemaul Hold shown up? The Ogres and the Forest Trolls have de facto left the Horde and the presence of a few individuals from those races within the Horde does not change that.

And there it is guys, a twisted double standard in a constantly speeding downward spiral.

Ogres are NOT a Horde race. Forest Trolls are NOT a Horde race. Previous affiliation is not enough to claim them. They are independent forces within the world.

Finally, high elves are playable as blood elves. Stating 'high elves' are not playable is incorrect, they are simply playable on the Horde faction.

Blood elves are playable. High elves aren't.

No, High elves are not Blood elves. No, High elves are not Horde, they are Alliance. And no, High elves are not what you want them to be, we all know what a High elf is. And High elves are not Blood elves nor Horde.

[Ielenia]

Nobody wants it because the Scryers are Blood Elves and Blood Elves are playable, it would be redundant.

OBJECTION!! Assuming facts not in evidence! Especially since that reasoning is made null and void by this very mega-thread.

The Scryers are a group of thalassian elves who live in a neutral city and have no allegiance to the Horde but are identical to the Blood Elves in every other way.

The Silver Covenant are a group of thalassian elves who live in a neutral city, have no allegiance to the Horde, have an affinity to the Alliance, but are identical to the Blood Elves in every other way.

In other words, the Silver Covenant are in an extremely similar situation to the Scryers with the exception that rather than being neutral, they are partisan to the Alliance. The request for Alliance High Elves therefore rests on that political affinity towards the Alliance because that is the sole real difference, and as we know a political opinion is nowhere near enough to justify an Allied race.

They also differ in cultural views and there are a bucket-load of possible hooks to give them further differences from the blood elves, some of which I mentioned in past posts.

Ion Hazzikostas in 2018 "Blood Elves kind of are High Elves...giving that race directly to the Alliance would have blurred a lot of the lines between the two factions"

And that reasoning, "blurred a lot of the lines between the two factions", is beaten to a pulp and then kicked to the gutter by Blizzard themselves as they introduce void elves.

[Aldo Hawk]

Not only that. Ion's words only matter when they sound good when regarding the parts some people are interested on.

But hey, the different relationship with magic and the sunwell, the eye color (that comes with reasons for being able to maintain them) and the different backstory is ignored as a plague because it proves that there are more differences than just 'political opinion'.

Also thinking that 'political opinion' is enough to cause the purge of Dalaran, the rejection of the Sunreavers into Dalaran, the murdering between members of the groups, and any other kind of violent act of these characteristics is totally nuts and can only come from some sort of political extremist.

Everyone knows what a Pandaren is, and everyone knows what a High elf is.

And everyone knows that there are -already- more differences between High elves and Blood elves in which is completely possible to develop on, unlike Pandaren.

Saying it's impossible is wishful thinking.

[Stardrift]

Oh my god, this shit again?

There's 4 different playable elves. What the fuck is up with the obsession?

[Ogren]

Oh my god, this shit again?

There's 4 different playable elves. What the fuck is up with the obsession?

The problem is that only 3 of them really feel like actual full races with their own culture, aesthetic, and motives. The Void Elves do not feel that way and just feel like they were added for the sake of allied race parity. The devs can say they did it because they loved Alleria's story and love the concept of the race, I would not disagree that shadow elves are a cool idea, but fact of the matter is that it's been more than a year since their introduction and yet they still don't feel like a full race like Night Elves, Blood Elves, and Nightborne do. Their entire exposure has just amounted to being bodies to throw at the Horde.

They need their own story, they need to feel like they fit and are part of the setting. They need writing that moves them away from people's impression that they are just an asspull race and nothing more. They are living in a shadow of what their potential could be. For those people that say they were the correct decision and better than High Elves, I still have to ask if those people are legitimately arguing that out of a genuine like for the race or only because they want to deny Alliance players a more previously established race for faction tribalistic reasons. Whatever the case, there is a lack of acknowledgement that the Alliance constantly gets races pulled out of the ether, out of nowhere, with little build-up or proper setup, and that is something the devs need to know is not a correct way to implement races. Nightborne show that people love races with beautiful style, culture, and themes, why they did not consider that for the Void Elves is beyond me but it really shows how much they've dropped the ball in Battle for Azeroth after they had just got done picking it back up in Legion.

[Obelisk Kai]

So you are still interpreting it differently than what he said. Void Elves are just as much High Elves as Blood Elves. Void Elves are Blood Elves, your opinion doesn't change that. Both are flavours, or none are. It's the famous cake again. Choose one, or be called out on fallacy arguments.

No, that's clearly not what he meant. What a High Elf is has been well established, both within Warcraft itself and the wider fantasy tropes Warcraft drew on. And within the context of Warcraft, Blood Elves are High Elves, the vanilla version. The original. The baseline. Void Elves are a different flavour of high elf, but they are the variant, the alteration, the blueberry sauce. So while both ARE flavours of High Elves, one is THE High Elf, and the other is the variant.

Doesn't change the fact that they are still High Elves.
I can definitely say that, since that's what Ion said. You don't agree with Ion's quotes then. Void Elves ARE High Elves, as much as Blood Elves. You either agree to that, or you don't really agree with what the dev's said about this. Maybe stop using those quotes.

No, when you are saying Blood Elves are another flavour of High Elves I presumed you meant that they could be distinguished from original High Elves as much as Void Elves can be. If that is what you meant, I of course disagree. If on the other hand you meant Blood Elves are a flavour of High Elf in that even the bog standard, unchanged vanilla version of a race constitutes a distinct flavour of it's own once there is a variant to contrast it with, then I can agree.

But there are only two flavours of high elf. Blood Elves/Alliance High Elves constitute one group and Void Elves constitute another. This is an unsurprising outcome given that Void Elves were deliberately differentiated to qualify as an Allied race.

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You have never explained the request outside derogatory commentary about it or without any kind of distortion on it. So no, you don't -want- to understand it.

As I said, it's an unmeetable test. Someone can only prove to you that they understand the request by agreeing with you. As I believe you to be entirely in the wrong on this matter, that is never going to happen.

And there it is guys, a twisted double standard in a constantly speeding downward spiral.

Just as the high elves left the Alliance, the Ogres and the Forest Trolls left the Horde. Just as the Alliance has no further claim to playing a high elf due to the presence of a few malcontents from Silvermoon within their ranks, the Horde has no definitive claim to the Ogres or Forest Trolls either. As Forest Trolls and Ogres are not playable, they are in effect free agents beholden to neither side. So, hypothetically, if Ogres were to become a race for the Alliance, then they and everything that defines them would become the property of the Alliance faction. The Stonemaul Ogres, despite being allied to the Horde, would therefore undermine the faction boundary were they to be made available to the Horde and thus would not become playable.

Not sure how you managed to convince yourself this is a double standard or how it is confusing you, I am applying the same standard to races that have left the Horde as I do the high elf race who left the Alliance.

Blood elves are playable. High elves aren't.

No, High elves are not Blood elves. No, High elves are not Horde, they are Alliance. And no, High elves are not what you want them to be, we all know what a High elf is. And High elves are not Blood elves nor Horde.[/QUOTE]

Chris Metzen says 'Blood Elves are our High Elves' and his opinion kind of outranks yours, considering he created them. So High Elves are playable as Blood Elves.
Another flavour of High Elf is available to the Alliance to play as Void Elves if you can't stomach the Horde faction though...which considering your main is a Blood Elf rogue seems unlikely.

High Elves are a Horde race and available to everyone.

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Not only that. Ion's words only matter when they sound good when regarding the parts some people are interested on.

But hey, the different relationship with magic and the sunwell, the eye color (that comes with reasons for being able to maintain them) and the different backstory is ignored as a plague because it proves that there are more differences than just 'political opinion'.

The eye colour is mutable as golden eyes proves.

The different backstory was over a philosophical point that has since been resolved and is no longer relevant in the modern story.

The different relationship with magic is up for interpretation as he didn't clarify it, but the likeliest explanation was that it referred to how they dealt with the addiction when the Sunwell was gone i.e. the point of philosophical differentiation that has since been resolved.

Still, your entire point here is predicated on the opposition cherry picking phrases to suit them and yet you ignore how he went on, said that giving that race directly to the Alliance undermines the differences between the factions, said that Void Elves were a cool variant that gave something 'like a Blood Elf' to the Alliance and ended with the epic snark of 'the Horde is waiting for you'.

Frankly I am quite happy to argue the totality of what he said compared to the few phrases you've plucked out to pretend there are more differences than the political, given how his entire reply is essentially a really concise summary of the anti High Elf position.

Also thinking that 'political opinion' is enough to cause the purge of Dalaran, the rejection of the Sunreavers into Dalaran, the murdering between members of the groups, and any other kind of violent act of these characteristics is totally nuts and can only come from some sort of political extremist.

As an inhabitant of the north of Ireland...yes, I definitely do think political opinion is enough to cause the the Silver Covenant to behave this way.

Everyone knows what a Pandaren is, and everyone knows what a High elf is.

Yes, a Pandaren is a Pandaren and a High Elf is a Blood/Alliance High Elf. There is also a Void Elf variant.

And everyone knows that there are -already- more differences between High elves and Blood elves in which is completely possible to develop on, unlike Pandaren.

Saying it's impossible is wishful thinking.

Never said it was impossible, just incredibly unlikely given the way the story has developed and that they went out of their way to create Void Elves rather than give the Alliance High Elves. That was kind of a tell.

[LilSaihah]

Also yeah there are actually a lot of ogres who are Horde aligned, and they could asspull it if they wanted to, same as they did with Mag'har. There's a stronger case for them to be playable, with unique racial styling and fantasy, compared to High Elves. Don't see how there's really a stronger case for High Elves than Ogres (other than 'they're good looking).

I would probably say even Mok'nathal would be a better bid for Allied Race than High Elves.

Forest Trolls would also be preferable I think, though probably as an unlocked cosmetic set for regular Trolls rather than their own race.

Speaking of cosmetic sets; if blue-eyed 'Blood' Elves became playable, wouldn't this all kinda go away?

Nightborne show that people love races with beautiful style, culture, and themes, why they did not consider that for the Void Elves is beyond me but it really shows how much they've dropped the ball in Battle for Azeroth after they had just got done picking it back up in Legion.

This is what kinda bugs me about the whole deal. Space Elves could be amazing. They're cthulu elves. There's so much room to make something cool out of that but they really haven't done much at all so far.

Maybe they're a new race that have been (almost literally) plucked out of the ether and they could use more time to mature. If they'd spent some time as enemies, like the Nightborne have, maybe they'd be better received. Maybe they will soon.

[Magnagarde]

High elves should've been a core playable race of the Alliance from the get-go, as have the ogres when it comes to the Horde. Blizzard instead went with night elves and the undead. The story consequences of these choices are felt to this day and these choices have done nothing but erroded both the faction and race identity.

[Aldo Hawk]

As I said, it's an unmeetable test. Someone can only prove to you that they understand the request by agreeing with you. As I believe you to be entirely in the wrong on this matter, that is never going to happen.

No please, do not agree with me, that's the last thing I want, nor I expect it to happen.

The thing is that you don't want to. It's always a spin after a spin on any High elf related thing. You even want to push the idea that they are not even members of the Alliance. This kind of obtuse viewing is ideal for me to show anyone coming here what's the deal on all of this.

I want the game to be more complete, you want the game to not put yourself out of your comfort zone.

Just as the high elves left the Alliance, the Ogres and the Forest Trolls left the Horde. Just as the Alliance has no further claim to playing a high elf due to the presence of a few malcontents from Silvermoon within their ranks, the Horde has no definitive claim to the Ogres or Forest Trolls either. As Forest Trolls and Ogres are not playable, they are in effect free agents beholden to neither side. So, hypothetically, if Ogres were to become a race for the Alliance, then they and everything that defines them would become the property of the Alliance faction. The Stonemaul Ogres, despite being allied to the Horde, would therefore undermine the faction boundary were they to be made available to the Horde and thus would not become playable.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Revantusk_...le_for_Azeroth / https://wow.gamepedia.com/Revantusk_...r#Objective_of / https://wow.gamepedia.com/Revantusk_Speaker#Quotes

When did they left?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stonemaul_clan#Cataclysm / https://wow.gamepedia.com/Stonemaul_...ts_of_Pandaria

When did they left?

https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...-Developer-Q-A

'Were Orges ever thought of as a playable race, at one time?
Yep. We considered them for Cataclysm instead of goblins. Figuring out the females and the two-headed mages would be (fun!) challenges. Maybe someday.'

Also... You ignored the mention of the Taunka:

The Taunka? We are at war!

Obviously this is the most outrageous since we effectively did quests where they pledged loyalty to the horde, however, where are they? They are, as I said, not playable, and there is 'where they are'. Non playable members of the Horde.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Taunka

When did they left?

Also, if anything, the Alliance has neutral quests with them: https://wow.gamepedia.com/Taunka#Quests

Not sure how you managed to convince yourself this is a double standard or how it is confusing you, I am applying the same standard to races that have left the Horde as I do the high elf race who left the Alliance.

What seems to be a more concerning question is that how do you manage to buy so much bullshit to support your view.

Not any of these three races has ever left the horde, and the High elves have been Alliance in World of Warcraft, the game we are playing, since Vanilla WoW.

Also it seems you have to believe I have in some way 'convinced myself', no, my friend:

As for the Ogres and Revantusk...who cares? No, honestly who really cares? The first two are such incredibly minor parts of the Horde that it is foolhardy to predict they would contribute.

Then you resort to say that they left the horde, it's one way or the other.

The Ogres and the Forest Trolls have de facto left the Horde and the presence of a few individuals from those races within the Horde does not change that.

In which you will never explain when did they did that.

But the most worrying thing is how do you say this:

There is what, one Ogre village and one Revantusk village within the entire Horde? And in the fifteen years of WoW how often has a Revantusk troll shown up outside the Hinterlands to serve the Horde? How often has an Ogre from Stonemaul Hold shown up?

While you know that High elves have been much more present within the Alliance than these examples, and these two races you mentioned (ignoring Taunka) have been Horde members all this time, and never left. Players ask for these for the horde for reasons, don't you think? Are we all 'convincing ourselves' and we need you to tell the magic truth that nobody knows?

This is a ton load of pure bullshit you have brought to the public discussion. No, not referring only to this small part.

It's incredible how square headed you can get, seriously.

Chris Metzen says 'Blood Elves are our High Elves' and his opinion kind of outranks yours, considering he created them. So High Elves are playable as Blood Elves.

For the hundredth time... That phrase makes reference to Blood elves being their spin on what a -classic- High elf is, as in a compound of many fantasy franchises. High elves, in wow, are a thing apart from Blood elves, in any way that anyone interprets it, it doesn't make High elves not being a thing in wow.

There is not any opinion to outrank, since High elves are not Blood elves and High elves, these ones that are -called- High elves, not Blood elves, High elves, these on the Alliance who do not live in Silvermoon, are not playable.

Another flavour of High Elf is available to the Alliance to play as Void Elves if you can't stomach the Horde faction though...which considering your main is a Blood Elf rogue seems unlikely.

Forever and ever.

High Elves are a Horde race and available to everyone.

Stop lying.

The eye colour is mutable as golden eyes proves.

The different backstory was over a philosophical point that has since been resolved and is no longer relevant in the modern story.

The different relationship with magic is up for interpretation as he didn't clarify it, but the likeliest explanation was that it referred to how they dealt with the addiction when the Sunwell was gone i.e. the point of philosophical differentiation that has since been resolved.

Always the same, over rationalization when something doesn't fit.

A different relationship with magic can be something that still happens today, as the Quel'danil High elves prove. Why would they all stay the same after these traumatic events?

Also, you are ignoring the fact that Blood elves channel the light through the Sunwell. We don't see that in the High elves, everything points to them still being regular worshipers of the light.

As an inhabitant of the north of Ireland...yes, I definitely do think political opinion is enough to cause the the Silver Covenant to behave this way.

And I live in the place that searched it's own war during world war II, mind you. 'Political opinion' is a tip of the iceberg in cases like these. Delving a bit on these things makes you start to scratch much more very quickly. 'Political opinion' does not cause ethnic clearing like the Purge of Dalaran. Only hardcore extremists would find these nuances enough to start open hostilities.

And please, don't do as you always do. First of all, I don't want to start a political discussion here, and, as you are preparing to say... No, i'm not saying what happens in your land are stupid nuances, i'm saying that you are doing what you always do, ignoring the wider image to point to small parts. Political opinions alone do not cause what you say. Religion and ideologies, for example, are stronger forces in turning people against each other.

Yes, a Pandaren is a Pandaren and a High Elf is a Blood/Alliance High Elf. There is also a Void Elf variant.

A High elf is not a Blood elf. Because Blood elves are High elves that doesn't make the contrary true. You are being over obtuse with this.

PD: I encourage anyone to read these long posts, I prefer to be short on these things but often come times where is needed to answer some things and I'm kinda discomforted by the fact not many people will read the long posts.

So, next time I'm just gonna cut out repeated statements, I think these have been proven to be bullshit enough times and I will only dispatch them when there is nothing else to say about.

[Doffen]

No, that's clearly not what he meant. What a High Elf is has been well established, both within Warcraft itself and the wider fantasy tropes Warcraft drew on. And within the context of Warcraft, Blood Elves are High Elves, the vanilla version. The original. The baseline. Void Elves are a different flavour of high elf, but they are the variant, the alteration, the blueberry sauce. So while both ARE flavours of High Elves, one is THE High Elf, and the other is the variant.

That's exactly what these words mean, so you say he misspoke? So that quote is meaningless to throw around then? Or did he actually mean what he said?

It's so clear he meant that both Blood Elves and Void Elves are flavour of High Elves, if not he wouldn't have said it like that.

"Blood Elves are High Elves, and Void Elf is a flavour of High Elves" would be a correct sentence. But it wasn't like that at all. Void Elves and Blood Elves are flavors of High Elves. You may interpret things as you like, but man don't say he meant differently than what he says, what a silly way of arguing. It is like I say, you really like that cake and want to both have it and eat it. It's simple, it is what it is, or it is not. Pick one. Choosing both and you can start quoting yourself and argue.

[Ielenia]

High Elves are a Horde race and available to everyone.

This so blatantly, objectively false... that stating it borders on being <that word that gets you infracted>.

Seriously, Kai. At this point it's clear you're no longer arguing in good faith. You're being willingly aggravating and intentionally baiting people.