Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Aldo Hawk]

I would like to add that Pandaren are effectively a case of a 1:1 copy in both factions.

What I want to say by mentioning that is that High elves simply cannot be that, it just start out as being an allied race and ends up on the way allied races are added, always with at least any minor development on their current aesthetics and racials, of course voicelines too, etc...

It's totally unreasonable to say that the allied race would be a carbon copy and an existing option.

[Ielenia]

I would like to add that Pandaren are effectively a case of a 1:1 copy in both factions.

This is true. A 1000%.

Pandaren, on both sides, have the fur and tail choices, facial choices, hair choices, same class options... even the exact same racials.

The high elf race, if made playable, would not be anything like that. Different faces, different hair styles/face hair options, different skin tones, different class options (for example, likely won't be paladins), and, most important of all: would have different racials. And, of course, a different heritage armor set, if introduced.

[Eapoe]

You keep up the fight people! Keep whining and crying like spoiled children and surely Blizzard will cave like they did with Classic. Stay strong with the childishness!

[Mace]

Sure but Gnomes technology and stuff isn't portrayed in a way that's negative or harmful, they are about the positive progress of science with a cute cartoony style which doesn't really clash that hard with the Alliance's LotR motif. And honestly, even regardless of all this you'll still see people say the Alliance are very LotR or Tolkien-like despite all these races it has that you could argue clash with that because their presence isn't as strongly felt as the standard fantasy heroism that is core to the Alliance. It's pretty common I've heard people say they roll Horde because they want to move away from Tolkien cliche stuff even. It's just not something the Alliance will ever truly move away from because it's always been part of the Alliance since it was first formed.

But it's not bad or what I'd call a can of worms, it just is something that's all a matter of preference, like how some people might prefer idealistic characters over more grey anti-hero types.



Yeah, also it's about fanbase natural inclination to want races who share common values with the races and factions they are a fan of. Just like the Nightborne, as you mention, they are so well-received because they share common values with at least the Blood Elves and I hazard a guess they would even match Void Elves in popularity had their models been handled much better.

Granted they would have been perfectly plausible sharing values with the Highborne and Mage aspect of the Alliance, but there are Alliance players that certainly wanted them for that reason too.

I think part of that is what I feel holds Void Elves back a bit in terms of reception. The idea of an Alliance race that partakes in dark energy is a cool and unique one, but requires a lot more storytelling to justify and warrants more gravitas than what little is given in the Void Elf introduction. Nearly every single Alliance race believes in a faith that is diametrically and zealously opposed to the Void. Even though Umbric says they believe in the Alliance's core ideals it's just hard to really take that as anything other than damage control writing by the devs to make them feel like they fit the Alliance more and just clashes with their Blood Elf backstory (why didn't they come to the Alliance earlier like the High Elves did?)

Alliance players are more concerned about morals and values. They so far have shown the void elves, to be quite noble, in both Alleria and Umbric.. unfortunately you have to search for it.. by clicking on Umbric and reading the extra text.

Tbh.. they need to show void elves as truly void users who are noble in a more visible way.

That's blizzards issue with the elves atm. The nightborne in the horde hurts the night elves fans because they are the only visible accurate portrayal of the arcane legacy of the night elves, and one that looks good and has been redeemed just like the shen'dralar - difference is you don't see it in the shen'dralar at all, which was fine if the nightborne were going to replace them (which I suspect was the original plan) but as they went horde, that leaves that plan somewhat in question - ofc it wouldn't matter if the nightborne actually were friendly with the blood elves but worked a lot more with the night elves if not the alliance, but blizzard so far completely avoids cross faction interactions.

The high elves are both noble and pure - story wise, this makes them very attractive. And alliance players care about such thing, in general more than horde plaeyrs

[FlubberPuddy]

I prefer the discussion and debate, though; as well as the addressing of "what if's" and "what could have been's" - this isn't a contest in my mind, more an intellectual exercise.

And also the faint but extant hope that a developer is reading these arguments and takes away some instruction for the future, even if it doesn't concern this specific point of contention.

This is what I enjoy about the discussion/debates about this topic as well. Not concerned with "who is right" about what was said, but how to work with that - having a better idea of what constraints exist.

Unfortunately, as you've stated in your recent posts, it appears High Elven exiles were ancillary to the likes of Alleria and this Void vs Light narrative we're steering into. I do not see this topic itself being resolved until we can see what happens post-BFA.

We've been told ideas like Wildhammer Dwarves are still on the table, this means a 3rd playable race option isn't necessarily out of the books, but the manifestations of those comments definitely won't be seen until we're out of this current expansion.

It's why I've toned down the time I spend on this topic, it isn't something that necessarily needs to be attended to day in-day out. Sort of like thinking up the next new class that will be added to WoW, the community doesn't discuss that at tremendous frequency after just having an expansion where a new class was released. But only once we're heading into an expansion where typically another new class is expected to be due.

[scubi666stacy]

[SNIP - Gnomes / Goblins are not really relevant, they just break the Tolkien troupe, that's all]

I wouldn't either and think that is more likely, this we agree, though this all could have been avoided if they had just done that to begin with and make the Void Elf backstory more related to High Elves. Afrasiabi being so open about it tells me they are having second thoughts about their stance on High Elves blurring faction lines if they're so open about Void Elves being allowed to look more like them.

I would say that adding something unique and different isn't an absolute necessity of the allied race system. Look at Lightforged and Highmountain, what do they add? There is not much about them that I would say is much different from the Draenei and Tauren we already have other than different aesthetics. Same could be said of Nightborne really, they are not that much different from Blood Elves aside from new aesthetics.

The case would really be the same with High Elves, they would present Alliance an option to play an elf that was not purple or blue as default aesthetic choice. More warm-toned in their color hues. I think Void Elves themselves do present unique aesthetic but I also sympathize with the notion that it would have perhaps been better if they had been more like Alleria.

Allied races don't seem to be intended to add unique things but to just add more flavor, like an appetizer or seasoning on a steak. Core races are the steak, they should be the ones that call for uniqueness as justification for playability.

A tad extreme...

I don't see Lightforged and Highmountain AR as a problem, they just slot into their "parent race", just like Mag'har or Dark Irons. But for High Elves, there is no "parent race" in the Alliance. The "parent race" is in the Horde.

This is why it was important to add the model with some differentiation, and also write some lore reasoning for why the Void Elves come into the Alliance. Just as the Nightborne, who's "parent race" is in the Alliance, had to get a lore reason to join the Horde. In this case, not only the stronger help from Blood Elves in Suramar, but also the similarities in their history / world view with mana addiction, high affinity to arcane magic, and other shenanigans.

You just cannot get this degree of differentiation with High Elves. They are nothing more than social / political deviants from their "parent race" but without the specific alterations made by the Void. They did not get green glowing eyes, this is just not enough.

So it's really 2 arguments here: Nothing special / new for the Alliance given their already established roster of races and archetypes, and not enough differentiation from their Horde "parent race".

Honestly, with the new model of Calia Menethil, I would expect the Alliance to get Lightforged Undead as the next AR, and for the Horde something else. And while I find San'layn attractive, or getting some undead Night Elves, I really don't think that the game should get more Elven races in the near future. I would rather welcome some Dragonborn (for the Alliance, because Dragons are protectors of the world, and the Alliance has the same view of itself, also to get some more fuel on this Wrathuin ship, lol), or Elementals (for the Horde, given that they are the parent faction for the shamans).

[Ogren]

I don't see Lightforged and Highmountain AR as a problem, they just slot into their "parent race", just like Mag'har or Dark Irons. But for High Elves, there is no "parent race" in the Alliance. The "parent race" is in the Horde.

This is why it was important to add the model with some differentiation, and also write some lore reasoning for why the Void Elves come into the Alliance. Just as the Nightborne, who's "parent race" is in the Alliance, had to get a lore reason to join the Horde. In this case, not only the stronger help from Blood Elves in Suramar, but also the similarities in their history / world view with mana addiction, high affinity to arcane magic, and other shenanigans.

You just cannot get this degree of differentiation with High Elves. They are nothing more than social / political deviants from their "parent race" but without the specific alterations made by the Void. They did not get green glowing eyes, this is just not enough.

So it's really 2 arguments here: Nothing special / new for the Alliance given their already established roster of races and archetypes, and not enough differentiation from their Horde "parent race".

Honestly, with the new model of Calia Menethil, I would expect the Alliance to get Lightforged Undead as the next AR, and for the Horde something else. And while I find San'layn attractive, or getting some undead Night Elves, I really don't think that the game should get more Elven races in the near future. I would rather welcome some Dragonborn (for the Alliance, because Dragons are protectors of the world, and the Alliance has the same view of itself, also to get some more fuel on this Wrathuin ship, lol), or Elementals (for the Horde, given that they are the parent faction for the shamans).

Yeah but people have presented ways to make High Elves different that still respects the coherency and consistency of the lore and the Alliance's thematic motifs. You said that would make them redundant and boring, but that's not an important factor for an allied race to be denied. It's about whether those things to differentiate them makes sense and fits the lore, and I haven't quite seen any need to think why they would not. Plus the idea that Alliance and Horde elves differ based on social class and status is an intriguing one I think.

As far as Void Elves goes, I think part of the problem is they're just never going to measure up to their Nightborne counterparts because they are a completely blank and empty canvas that has yet to be truly filled out. They don't have any strong and powerful established characters, and by that I mean characters who are fleshed out and well-written that really speak to you when you quest with them, not anything in the same way like Nightborne had gotten in Legion. I think the negative first impression they've given is never going to truly leave them and Blizzard will have to be very good writers to truly move them away from that and show people why they are an acceptable part of the canon lore.

[scubi666stacy]

Yeah but people have presented ways to make High Elves different that still respects the coherency and consistency of the lore and the Alliance's thematic motifs. You said that would make them redundant and boring, but that's not an important factor for an allied race to be denied. It's about whether those things to differentiate them makes sense and fits the lore, and I haven't quite seen any need to think why they would not. Plus the idea that Alliance and Horde elves differ based on social class and status is an intriguing one I think.

As far as Void Elves goes, I think part of the problem is they're just never going to measure up to their Nightborne counterparts because they are a completely blank and empty canvas that has yet to be truly filled out. They don't have any strong and powerful established characters, and by that I mean characters who are fleshed out and well-written that really speak to you when you quest with them, not anything in the same way like Nightborne had gotten in Legion. I think the negative first impression they've given is never going to truly leave them and Blizzard will have to be very good writers to truly move them away from that and show people why they are an acceptable part of the canon lore.

The only things I have seen so far fall into 2 categories: They are either purely cosmetic and thus not differentiating enough - or they are more extreme, which makes me wonder if this concept is a High Elf anymore, and make me wonder why do these people just cannot accept Void Elves then.

BTW I have 2 Void Elf characters and I am curious how their story will develop. I got some interesting, also a bit disturbing ideas while completing the War Campaign on my Alliance main (a Human mage which I have since I have started to play the game, even if my new main is a BE mage since mid-TBC). I find the dichotomy of Light (BE) and Void (VE) in Thalassian Elves a very cool concept, while the Nightborne and the Night Elves have this Arcane vs. Nature thing going for them. And Umbric was all over the place. Somehow a disgusting bastard, but at the same time kinda cool. Though I find it funny having VE in the Alliance - like the Catholic church suddenly has a Satanist branch with it's own cardinal.

Really it's like people just do not want to see all the possibilities of a fresh canvas. The game is almost 15 years old. We have seen in WoD how bad nostalgia is. Yeah, let's get all the old Orcs back... no, thanks. And we don't need any more Elves for a long time now.

[Ogren]

The only things I have seen so far fall into 2 categories: They are either purely cosmetic and thus not differentiating enough - or they are more extreme, which makes me wonder if this concept is a High Elf anymore, and make me wonder why do these people just cannot accept Void Elves then.

It's probably because Void Elves lack the essential ingredients that make them endearing to the audience like the other three elf races have. Night Elves, Blood Elves, and Nightborne all have engaging and deep backstories and a lot of historical relevance in the narrative, plus landscapes and cities that are beautiful to behold.

What do Void Elves have? Not much of any of that I would say. Yes it's because they're a completely fresh and new race, but should we have to agree that introducing races in that manner is a good thing? Especially when a similar matter in the form of the Draenei compelled the devs to issue an apology to all of us, and then turning around to doing it again here?

[Ielenia]

It's probably because Void Elves lack the essential ingredients that make them endearing to the audience like the other three elf races have. Night Elves, Blood Elves, and Nightborne all have engaging and deep backstories and a lot of historical relevance in the narrative, plus landscapes and cities that are beautiful to behold.

What do Void Elves have? Not much of any of that I would say. Yes it's because they're a completely fresh and new race, but should we have to agree that introducing races in that manner is a good thing? Especially when a similar matter in the form of the Draenei compelled the devs to issue an apology to all of us, and then turning around to doing it again here?

Another issue with the void elves is that it feels that Blizzard is doing their best to avoid fleshing out the void elves. All we know is that they're "shadowy guys that could go mad at any moment", but then they got zero lore development so far. We know nothing about the conversion process, or about the Ethereals that captured Umbric's group, nor their reason for doing so.

Zero.

[Ogren]

Another issue with the void elves is that it feels that Blizzard is doing their best to avoid fleshing out the void elves. All we know is that they're "shadowy guys that could go mad at any moment", but then they got zero lore development so far. We know nothing about the conversion process, or about the Ethereals that captured Umbric's group, nor their reason for doing so.

Zero.

The ironic part is I like them and think they definitely have a lot of potential, I even have a Void Elf character I get art for but yeah, all they have is potential and I'm still waiting to see Blizzard do more. I don't expect it though, the storytelling aspect of the game is just the weakest part of it as they continue to tote their "gameplay first" mantra.

Anyone who can't understand the want for High Elves is just showing they haven't read the thread or people's statements on the matter, it really is quite simple to understand, even from someone like me that never wanted the race or cared much about it until all this happened.

[FossilFree]

Wrathion's model looks like a Thalassian elf. Brown skinned and red eyed Dragon Elf AR?

This will do Blizz, this will do nicely!

[Doffen]

I don't see Lightforged and Highmountain AR as a problem, they just slot into their "parent race", just like Mag'har or Dark Irons. But for High Elves, there is no "parent race" in the Alliance. The "parent race" is in the Horde.

Technically the "parent race" of the Blood Elves are the Alliance High Elves whos most true towards the original High Elves we had before the big majority went Blood Elf. So their parent race is still here, but it's just semantics, you mean of course parent race as in the already playable one. But again, technically the Alliance High Elves ARE their own "parent race". Of course they can't be an Allied Race of themselves, so they might not go under that category as the rest of the bunch, like HM Tauren for instance.

Void Elves already broke that "parent race" argument anyway.

[FlubberPuddy]

Wrathion's model looks like a Thalassian elf. Brown skinned and red eyed Dragon Elf AR?

This will do Blizz, this will do nicely!

Anti-helfers: But...but...he's not a Thalassian/Blood Elf/High Elf! He - he can't use their model?!?!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Joking aside, I'm wondering if anyone actually has made a comment like that yet.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Wrathion's model looks like a Thalassian elf. Brown skinned and red eyed Dragon Elf AR?

This will do Blizz, this will do nicely!

Makes me wonder if Wrathion is supposed to have a Half Elf guise, like Kalecgos; he has been based of human and thalassian elf on his two modles, and both seem to have short pointy ears,

TBH I'd love Half Elves that could have that skin color.

[Traycor]

High Elves should be implemented as an AR or be a customisation option for Void Elves, full stop.

• Legendary Alliance race. Been allied or friendly to Humans and Dwarves for thousands of years. Two of its most prolific leaders still active within the Alliance.
• Lots of room for differentiation from Blood Elves. From eyes, tattoos, hairstyles and postures to clothing, architecture, racial abilities, mounts, and playable classes.
• Easily the most requested AR in the community, with Demon Hunter-levels of popularity. Easy money for Blizzard and a great selling point of the next expansion.
• Great opportunities to be introduced in a lore-friendly way alongside Forest Trolls, Ogres or Wildhammer Dwarves, thus completing the roster from Warcraft 2 and 3.

I endorse this message.

[scubi666stacy]

Another issue with the void elves is that it feels that Blizzard is doing their best to avoid fleshing out the void elves. All we know is that they're "shadowy guys that could go mad at any moment", but then they got zero lore development so far. We know nothing about the conversion process, or about the Ethereals that captured Umbric's group, nor their reason for doing so.

Zero.

Dude, these guys have been all over the place in the Alliance war campaign. I also expect that we will get more lore for VE together with the BE. They are two sides of a coin now, replacing BE and HE. Just like NB and NE are now the dichotomy, after NE and Highborne have been in the past.

It's really obvious on a meta level.

- - - Updated - - -

Technically the "parent race" of the Blood Elves are the Alliance High Elves whos most true towards the original High Elves we had before the big majority went Blood Elf. So their parent race is still here, but it's just semantics, you mean of course parent race as in the already playable one. But again, technically the Alliance High Elves ARE their own "parent race". Of course they can't be an Allied Race of themselves, so they might not go under that category as the rest of the bunch, like HM Tauren for instance.

Void Elves already broke that "parent race" argument anyway.

Blood Elves are the parent race. High Elves are Blood Elves who have chosen to keep their old name and who have chosen to not drain magic from living creatures / use fel. They have split up from the main body of their people who are Blood Elves. All High Elves in the Alliance are dissidents, if you look at them closely. They are not the representatives of their race.

Stop twisting facts.

[Obelisk Kai]

Considering I do not quite put the same emphasis as you do as concerns the protection of the Blood Elves' identity, it would scan that I also don't think the gameplay issue is as pressing or overwhelming as you do. The Blood Elves aren't special enough to be afforded such abstruse protection - especially in light of the all the other precedents made as concerns Allied Race inclusions. This strikes me as a form of special pleading.

No other race in the game is subject to the same demand; to be duplicated to the other faction. Were there as concerted an effort to duplicate any other race from either faction, I would argue against it as vehemently. So this isn't a case of special pleading, this is a case of unique circumstances in that only the Blood Elves face this persistent, never-ending demand to be duplicated. And that is precisely what the demand for playable Alliance High Elves is.

As previously stated, I prefer the two factions remain - each with their own respective sets of disparate cultures. Preferably, I'd also like to see more variation in each of the factions as opposed to the current predominance of Human/Orcish aesthetics, but that is neither here nor there.

I would argue if the two factions are to remain, then the differences between them should be preserved to keep the two factions distinct. To make the divide matter. Whilst I also oppose the elimination of the factions, I would prefer that to a scenario where their distinctiveness is broken down or rendered meaningless.

As that is the case at the moment, Blood Elves should remain the unique traditional High Elf option they are as a part of the Horde. Should the faction boundaries break down somewhat, Alliance players can avail of playing a Blood Elf as the unique traditional High Elf option they are. Neither outcome supports a distinct Alliance High Elf race however.

Blood Elves are High Elves, but they are not High Elves who have been exiled from their country of origin and leave as refugees in foreign lands, clinging to a heritage that has moved on without them and struggling to maintain themselves despite winnowed numbers and little support. In terms of lore the High Elven exiles are practically, fundamentally, culturally, and socially different from their now Blood Elven peers. In gameplay terms, the experience of these exiles is not available to be played in any capacity, as one can only play and thus experience the perspective of those who were not exiled from Silvermoon and do not live as refugees. Doubly so as this other faction is *not* allied with the Horde and thus does not share in that distinction either. No duplication from a lore or even gameplay-based story need exist because the experiences will be necessarily separate and distinct from one another.

Defias Humans are Humans, but they were chased out of Stormwind following the death of Tiffin Wrynn, who had to live in poverty and degradation on the fringes of that kingdom, desperately clinging to a measure of self-respect even as their lawlessness and banditry saw them become feared and hated.

The lore is no justification for a High Elf allied race. That just isn't enough of a reason to justify them. There are multiple groups across the world who are identical in every way to already available options except for a change in a part of their narrative but who aren't playable and that is because narrative isn't enough, as my passage above on the Defias is meant to show. It has never been treated as a differentiating factor in this game, and never when deciding upon allied races. If a different story WAS all that it took to qualify as an Allied race, then Blizzard would have given the Alliance High Elves without even thinking of Void Elves.
Even what you argue is 'gameplay terms' is simply more story themed differentiation, which at it's root is the political disagreement between Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves that Blizzard told us was insufficient when they explained why they rejected Alliance High Elves.

Void Elves are the result of Blizzard doing what you are arguing they should do, avoiding a neutral race through meaningful differentiation. And, even if you disagree with Void Elves being able to turn Alliance High Elves into new Void Elves, the Blood Elves they ARE sourced from are thalassian elves exiled from their country of origin and who have to live as refugees in a foreign land. And of course, if Alliance High Elves are able to be turned into Void Elves which I believe the evidence shows and which even you seem to admit is logically probable if not explicit, then your above objection almost entirely vanishes as the one residue left would be an Alliance High Elf who has chosen not to be a Void Elf which is an awfully thin distinction to predicate an entire race upon.
Given so many pro High Elfers who say it's not about the aesthetic, but about the origin of the Void Elves that they find problematic, explicit confirmation that a Void Elf can be a former Alliance High Elf is all that is required to play a Void Elf with the lore and gameplay experience you describe. That individual Void Elf would have had the lore experience you describe and which they claim is what is critical for them.

As a coda though, I re-iterate that the lore experience is meaningless as a differentiating factor and was explicitly rejected as a differentiating factor by the developers when they explained why Alliance High Elves were rejected and Void Elves created in their stead. That it is an important factor for some of those seeking Alliance High Elves is clear, but the importance they place on it is irrelevant because it cannot change the fundamental fact that an Alliance High Elf and Blood Elves are biologically and thematically identical.

The salient point here is that the Void Elves were provided a lore-based and gameplay mechanic sequence to *make* them different enough to constitute a new identity - the same process can be done with the High Elven exiles (either via a soft retcon and/or minor tweaks) while preserving their aesthetics and culture. Separate them from the Sunwell, alter their models slightly, give them a unique and perpendicular story, etc. etc. No one is saying distinctiveness is unimportant (although few people take it to such logical extremes) - distinctiveness can be preserved without reducing or lessening either of the factions' fundamental integrity.

This part doesn't make sense I am afraid. The reason Void Elves were provided a lore based process to make them different was to justify their differences and to create a viable variant that previously did not exist. If the changes the Void Elves had to undergo to justify their existence as an Allied race weren't required, they would never have created Void Elves in the first place and they would have given the Alliance High Elves as Ion indicated in 2014.

And the best way to maintain distinctiveness is to keep the factions actually distinct. Alliance High Elves are just political exiles, they are as much differentiated from Blood Elves as the the Dutch Government in Exile was differentiated from the Dutch in Nazi occupied Netherlands. As such, nothing substantial can be done to differentiate them that keeps them High Elves because if anything substantial happened, substantial enough to justify their inclusion as an Allied race, then they wouldn't be true High Elves anymore but a variant. Which is what happened with Void Elves.

Void Elves have almost certainly been separated from the Sunwell, as logically it doesn't make sense for a void based race to feed on a light based energy source.
Void Elf models have been altered slightly in that their skin colour palette was shifted from human tones to blue/gray/purple.
Void Elves now have a unique story.
And, lest we forget, Void Elves ARE also High Elves, a different flavour.

In other words, if you believe your solutions sound reasonable, they are because Blizzard already did it with the Void Elves. Yet we are having this debate because the hardcore pro High Elf community rejected this compromise as 'not being the High Elves they wanted'.

If the objection is truly based on lore, then accepting Void Elves can convert other Elves and that some Alliance High Elves have become Void Elves is the answer, as you can roleplay your Void Elf as a former Alliance High Elf.
If the objection is based on aesthetics and theme, as I believe is far likelier, then repeating the solution already attempted will simply result in the same aggrieved group saying that 'this isn't what we wanted'.
What they seem to want is an unaltered thalassian elf without any consideration for the integrity of the Blood Elves or the identity of the Horde faction and which should be vehemently argued against at every opportunity.

As I said previously - the reason provided as to why they weren't added doesn't square with what already know, and even further with what has already been done as concerns Allied Races. Returning again and again to this refrain isn't very helpful when the gist is that the refrain *itself* is a mistaken notion. We all know what was done, and we all know the stated reasons as to why - the contention is because people do not fundamentally agree with those reasons and cannot square them with the current state of affairs. The very foundation of your argument is what is in question here, not its details or its extended elements. The reason people are likely getting short with this tack is because it has the appearance of being self-sealing as it is a form of presuppositionalism - an argument cannot be proven correct by continually pointing to itself as its own truth. "It is what it is and that is all it will be" is not a valid form of argumentation, not if you want to have a meaningful or constructive debate.

There is an awful lot to unpack here, but I will try. First, I will begin with your closing statement that using developer commentary is not a valid form of argumentation. I have never stated that it is the final word on the matter. However, it is the final word on the matter as we are aware of it. As the creators of the game and the lore, Blizzard effectively functions as a referee. Through their comments and actions we divine intent. If they change their minds and let us know, then that becomes the final word on the matter. However, for as long as they do express an opinion on this matter, and they have, then that opinion is a valid contribution to this debate, particularly given their last intervention was as final and definitive as it was.
What is not a valid form of argumentation is the corollary to your statement, that Blizzard can change their minds. The possibility of Blizzard changing their minds is one I regard as a low blow in terms of debate, not because it is wrong, but because at that point debate ceases. No matter how vehemently Blizzard goes in a particular direction, no matter how much a course of action is communicated by developer commentary and in game action, the 'low-blow' is an attempt to demolish the intellectual underpinning of a position someone disagrees with by saying 'we can get them to change their minds, so their statement shouldn't count'.
How are you supposed to respond to that? Of course they can change their minds, that is their right and their perogative. But the possibility they can change their minds should not be used as a bludgeon to undermine what they have said so far, particularly on a topic such as this where they have been extremely consistent in their approach.

Secondly, how does it not square with what we know? There are enough interviews and developer comments out there that we can easily reconstruct what happened. That they considered Alliance High Elves as a candidate (Ion hazzikostas 2014 interview), that they realised Alliance High Elves were simply too close to Blood Elves (Ion Hazzikostas 2017 and 2018), that this was a threat to faction diversity which they had learned was a negative (Greg Street 2013) and that they decided to add a 'new and cool' variant of that race (Shani Edwards 2017) instead, one that didn't blur the lines between the factions.

If people disagree with the fundamental logic behind why that decision was made, they are free to express it. But these are people whose agenda involves weakening faction diversity because the race they want to play happens to be on the other side of the faction wall, and Blizzard has made the decision to keep that wall robust. Their contentions about whether or not Alliance High Elves are viable does not stem from an earnest appraisal of gameplay mechanics in other words, but from their own desire to be able to play a Horde race without having to go Horde.

As such, citing developer commentary is not only legitimate, it is imperative. The pro High Elf community has form for disregarding everything that mitigates against the realization of their goal. Commentary is at first dismissed, with the developer or employee who made the comment being 'stupid' or 'not knowing what he is talking about'. After enough time has elapsed, the commentary is then dismissed as 'old' or 'not relevant' with the possibility that behind the scenes Blizzard MIGHT have changed their minds used as a reason to invalidate said commentary. And there has been a LOT of commentary...which I include here.

The 2005 Caydiem 2005 post which confirmed the reason Alliance High Elves were not playable was due to their population. If you read some of the older High Elf threads from around 2013, 2014, this was the post that was the most debated as it was a Blizzard employee explaining why Alliance High Elves weren't playabe.
The Warcraft Encyclopedia entries on Blood Elves and High Elves which confirmed that the Alliance High Elf population was extremely low and that they were fragmented and scattered...commentary confirmed as still true by Ion Hazzikostas in 2017 and 2018.
The Warcraft Encyclopedia still confirmed canon by Sean Copeland, aka Loreology, in a tweet he made several years later.
Ghostcrawler stating Blizzard weren't keen on how neutral races worked out in a 2013 tweet. As discussed earlier in the thread, I contacted Ghostcrawler several years later to ask how this tweet related to the possibility of Alliance High Elves and he cited faction diversity as the negative aspect (more choice for Alliance being the positive).
And finally the Ion Hazzikostas interviews in 2017 and 2018 which ended up with 'Blood Elves are High Elves and High Elves are playable'.

I return to the Blood Elves are High Elves phrase not as the truth in it's own right...even though it really, really is. It is the summation of fifteen years of commentary on this topic. It is not taken in isolation. And as the above list demonstrates, on no occasion has the pro High Elf community found itself on the front foot, never with a positive piece of evidence for it's own case. The pro high elf case has over the years simply been a reaction to each reaffirmation from Blizzard of the lore rationale; that Alliance High Elves are too few in number and too fragmented to be playable...or the gameplay rationale, that Alliance High Elves are identical to Blood Elves and thus would undermine the racial identity of the Blood Elves and the integrity of the Horde by providing an identical version of an already existing race to the other faction.

Protestations that Alliance High Elves could be differentiated are undermined by the fact Void Elves were differentiated in precisely the manner you have suggested and yet have been deemed unacceptable by the pro High Elf community.

"Mollify" was probably the wrong choice of term. Hazzikostas' response to complaints about the Void Elves and the High Elven controversy has all the earmarks of similar PR blunders of late - "you think you do but you don't" and the now legendary "don't you guys have phones?" It's needlessly trite and doesn't address the substance of the complaints themselves, waving them away with a snarky dismissal that did exactly what I predicted it would by making the disaffected segment even angrier and thus more defiant. It's exactly the wrong tack to take if you wanted that segment to actually accept the Void Elven compromise, especially given the factional contention that was already in play due to the basic theme of the coming expansion (e.g. a "red vs. blue" faction conflict-centered extravaganza). They did indeed fail entirely, albeit in a different way then I think you took it - and their bluntness contained in it much less truth as opposed to an appalling lack of recognition. Since we've already covered and recovered the ground of ways in which they not identical, and not even really similar except in the realm of gameplay appearance, I think we can avoid covering it again here.

Again, I disagree. He gave a community long known for disregarding what they have been told a harsh, blunt truth. For evidence, I point out how every other phrase or comment that contained ambiguity or attempted to spare their feelings on this matter was torn apart and reinterpreted hundreds of time until it didn't mean what it obviously meant. It's hard to misinterpret 'Blood Elves are High Elves' and 'the Horde is waiting for you'. Remember, he was restating what he said at Blizzcon 2017 for the second time in seven months, after a months long campaign first to get Void Elves to have High Elf like skins (if anyone is wondering why the developers and others think this is about the aesthetics, the huge campaign to get Void Elves changed is why) and then for High Elves themselves when the Void Elf campaign produced no changes. Nor do I think his motive was in getting them to accept the compromise. There will always be a hard core who refuse to reconcile themselves to the Void Elf compromise. But Void Elves are currently the fourth most played alliance race at level 120 in the US and the EU with a combined total of three hundred thousand level 120 toons, making them the most popular and successful allied race of all. I would judge that a far better metric by which to judge the success of the Void Elf compromise.

Again, circular reference or reasoning does not validate itself - tautologies are not arguments. You've already established that your "bare minimum" is an impossible standard because, in your words, it will *never* be possible. In this sense your argument is auto-discrediting, you've made it somewhat pointless to even attempt to debate the matter because you've effectively stuffed your fingers in your ears and are now chanting "I'm not listening," proverbially speaking. As I've said previously, everything done with the Void Elves could have been fundamentally replicated with the High Elven exiles resulting in a discrete and differentiated group that stood as apart from the Blood Elves as the Void Elves now do *without* having to change their culture or society by introducing foreign elements like the Void. To put it succinctly: the Void Elves were not necessary to creating a High Elven variant for the Alliance - there was already an existing group that only needed the bare minimum of essential differentiation to qualify. That is the crux of the argument - and the reason why the developer's stated rationale has been so negatively received. The reasons as to why the Void Elves were made in the first place is secondary to this primary point of contention. If they could iterate an entirely new group, why not iterate on the one that is preexisting and already being clambered for

The reasons why Void Elves were made in the first place is far from secondary in this debate. They are central.

You state that I am 'sticking my fingers in my ears' and that 'I am not listening' because of my bare minimum because the only way to differentiate an Alliance High Elf from a Blood Elf is that the end result is not an Alliance High Elves and that that will 'never be possible'. I assert it again; it will never be possible, not in how different races are presented within the framework of the game as it currently exists. You can as much meaningfully differentiate an Alliance High Elf from a Blood Elf as you can meaningfully differentiate a Defias Brotherhood member from a Stormwind Human through the liberal application of lipstick.

You cannot meaningfully differentiate a race from it's parent and yet still have them remain identical. And story is not enough, has never been enough and will never be enough. Every single Allied race so far has been something more than the just lore in terms of difference.

Now that the Alliance actually has a thalassian elf option, the chances of Blizzard being persuaded to give the Alliance a second option have to be incredibly low. Not only does it contribute to elf bloat, not only does it give the Alliance two thalassian options to the Horde's one despite the Horde hosting the vast majority of the thalassian elf population...but it actively undermines their thinking behind why they created the Void Elves in the first place, to give the Alliance a thalassian elf option that was not identical to the Blood Elves.

You cite Void Elves as some kind of precedent which strikes me as deeply flawed reasoning. If the process was so straightforward that Alliance High Elves could be meaningfully differentiated from Blood Elves, then why didn't Blizzard go and do that? They literally went out of their way NOT to add Alliance High Elves, to the point that they created a genuine variant nobody had ever heard of before.

Void Elves are not a precedent. They are in fact the culmination of everything you suggest Blizzard could do. And to state something bluntly, to rise above the arguments, does anyone outside this echo chamber actually believe that having gone to the bother of creating a High Elf variant for the Alliance that Blizzard is going to go back and give them a second one? That really is fantasy.

The High Elven exiles already exist within the story and don't infringe on the Blood Elves being a traditional High Elven option, making the Void Elves both redundant and unnecessary to the equation. I don't think the anti-High Elf community is a monolith either, so the the unreasonable element I am underscoring here is a bit more specific than that. Portraying this as some kind of political drama is also highly odd, and equally unnecessary - no one is being conceded to here, and this isn't a game of political brinkmanship over video game rights or some such. It's a disagreement about a particular choice made by the developers in a fantasy video game - one group of people saying they got it right and issuing their reasons, and the other claiming they got it wrong and addressing their grievances. It's a matter of opinion. On that particular score the decision has more or less been made, and is highly unlikely to be unmade or changed in the short-term. If you must make it a game of brinkmanship then your victory is more or less a foregone conclusion, for what it might avail anyone. I prefer the discussion and debate, though; as well as the addressing of "what if's" and "what could have been's" - this isn't a contest in my mind, more an intellectual exercise.

And also the faint but extant hope that a developer is reading these arguments and takes away some instruction for the future, even if it doesn't concern this specific point of contention.

Alliance High Elves are thalassian elves who are in no way physically differentiated from the Blood Elves, who possess a connection to the Sunwell and thus an affinity for the Holy light. So yeah, they infringe on the identity of the Blood Elves in the same way recruiting a squad of Grimtotem Tauren into the Alliance would infringe on the Tauren, or if the Horde recruited the Defias, they would infringe the identity of the Humans.

Saying that they don't infringe on Blood Elf identity is based on the flimsiest of differences, their political opinion. A difference that will have meaning only in the subjective space of the player's mind. All anyone else will see is an elf that looks exactly like a Horde Blood Elf.

You are correct that the decision has been made. Void Elves are the answer. Many in the pro High Elf community are of the opinion that they can get Blizzard to change their minds and add Alliance High Elves as a separate group, yet they fail to appreciate just how much finality Void Elves apply to the debate.

There are three real outcomes left.

That Blizzard ignores the pro High Elf community for the remainder of the game's lifecycle as they have ignored them for the past fifteen years.

That Blizzard alters Void Elves to be more 'High Elf like' in terms of aesthetics, but it would still be a Void Elf without the ability to play a Paladin.

That Blizzard weakens factions restrictions and allows Blood Elves to participate in PVE content on behalf of the Alliance, but that would still be a Blood Elf...which IS a High Elf.

None of these outcomes has Alliance High Elves as a separate group. Common sense says all of them are likelier by several orders of magnitude than Blizzard adding a third thalassian race, one identical to a core Horde race, and a second thalassian option to the Alliance at that.

And while I would oppose both of the later options, all three would preserve the identity of the Blood Elves so I guess that, yes, my viewpoint is far likelier to prevail on this matter than not.

[Ielenia]

Dude, these guys have been all over the place in the Alliance war campaign.

As "fodder". They might have been "all over the place" in the war campaign, but no lore about the void elves was developed or expanded.

I also expect that we will get more lore for VE together with the BE.

I've been waiting throughout the entirety BfA so far and nothing have been shown.

[FlubberPuddy]

There is an awful lot to unpack here, but I will try. First, I will begin with your closing statement that using developer commentary is not a valid form of argumentation. I have never stated that it is the final word on the matter. However, it is the final word on the matter as we are aware of it. As the creators of the game and the lore, Blizzard effectively functions as a referee. Through their comments and actions we divine intent. If they change their minds and let us know, then that becomes the final word on the matter. However, for as long as they do express an opinion on this matter, and they have, then that opinion is a valid contribution to this debate, particularly given their last intervention was as final and definitive as it was.

See, it is interesting that you have this written, and even stating "what developers say becomes the final word on the matter" and "Blizzard functions as a referee" yet you and many others have tried to downplay the actual "final word on the matter" which wasn't said by Ion, but Alex Afrasiabi which was a call to High Elf fans to not give up hope on the possibility of High Elf customization coming to Void Elves on the Alliance.

Regardless of the context, this is the final official word on things regarding High Elf fantasy within the Alliance, Not what Ion said in 2017 and re-iterated in April 2018. Afrasiabi's comment ushers High Elf fans to continue asking for it.

What is not a valid form of argumentation is the corollary to your statement, that Blizzard can change their minds. The possibility of Blizzard changing their minds is one I regard as a low blow in terms of debate, not because it is wrong, but because at that point debate ceases. No matter how vehemently Blizzard goes in a particular direction, no matter how much a course of action is communicated by developer commentary and in game action, the 'low-blow' is an attempt to demolish the intellectual underpinning of a position someone disagrees with by saying 'we can get them to change their minds, so their statement shouldn't count'.

Not true, as we can see by the times of Afrasiabi's comment, we still had debates going on about it. "He says it as a passing thought" "it was still in context of Void Elves" "the 'don't give up hope' means nothing" (even though it's what he emphasized).

Thus we have evidence that developers "change their mind" about a topic from "go play Horde" to "don't give up hope" and debates about it still exist. No one just lied down and said, "well I guess I can't say anything to that".

And it is not a "low-blow" argument, because this company - the World of Warcraft team - has numerous times in the past, and most likely numerous times in the future, given "final words" on various matters concerning additions to the game and then later reversed those "final words".

This has happened enough times that it doesn't make the "they can change their minds" argument a low-blow, but actually strengthens it each time they do it. What it's showing their players is given enough feedback/support they will change their mind. And this is why when it comes to High Elves there's vehement pushback, because it actually DOES have a lot of support to happen but people equate it to things above its station like "If High Elves are playable then Horde Alliance divide means nothing" which is absolute hyperbole.

If the only thing that changed was that High Elves became playable, then that doesn't automatically make it so that every race can play with either faction as that hyperbolic statement appears to imply. Heck, from what keeps getting revealed by datamining, it appears High Elves are not the requirement in the slightest for this to happen.

How are you supposed to respond to that? Of course they can change their minds, that is their right and their perogative. But the possibility they can change their minds should not be used as a bludgeon to undermine what they have said so far, particularly on a topic such as this where they have been extremely consistent in their approach.

You respond the way you have been responding apparently, undermining certain comments (Afrasiabi's) while uplifting others (Hazzikostas's).

People utilize the "change their mind" argument because of its history with the developers. Also because this change of tone happened in less than a year (from April to Blizzcon that year). This was a very quick turn around compared to something like Player Housing where Ion himself touted the Garrisons as "Warcraft's version of Player Housing" to the earlier this year's 4FanSites interview stating "Housing is a big topic at Blizzard" and how they want to do the feature correct.

Very quick turn around in terms of developer commentary compared to other topics the players wanted devs to "change their minds" about, such as the finally now Worgen remodels coming to fruition.

Btw as an aside, that the new model rework for Worgens still has eye color connected to the face, means it's probably going to be a very long while before we get eye color separation from faces.

- - - Updated - - -

As "fodder". They might have been "all over the place" in the war campaign, but no lore about the void elves was developed or expanded.

I've been waiting throughout the entirety BfA so far and nothing have been shown.

Funny how Void Elves being used as fodder in the current expansion and nothing else seems enough to justify their playable status over High Elves, yet the High Elves have been present across multiple expansions with more lore added to them each time and that apparently means squat.