1. #11561
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    faction diversity
    You are so passionate and caught up in this High Elf thread, but what do you think of those who want Wildhammer Dwarves, Broken, Taunka, Forest Trolls, and any other reasonable, lore-established "allied race" being requested as playable? I'm interested in hearing your perspective.

  2. #11562
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hallowseve17 View Post
    You are so passionate and caught up in this High Elf thread, but what do you think of those who want Wildhammer Dwarves, Broken, Taunka, Forest Trolls, and any other reasonable, lore-established "allied race" being requested as playable? I'm interested in hearing your perspective.
    Several of those suggestions don't seem to offer much beyond what an already available option provides to the playerbase, for example Wildhammer are not a huge leap from Bronzebeard and definitely not in the same league as Dark Irons. Some, like the Broken, are completely viable.

    However, all these suggestions have in common is that the proposed allied race is on the same faction as the parent race, therefore they do not compromise any sense of faction identity. So while I might feel the Wildhammer would be a bit of a waste of a slot, it's no skin off my nose if Alliance players want to agitate for it and I wish them luck in their endeavours.

  3. #11563
    [QUOTE=FlubberPuddy;51479629]It is mentioned that there were High Elven Paladins within the Silverhand as before the whole capturing Naaru thing they believed in the same Holy Light as Humans and Dwarves.[quote]
    Really? Huh, learn something new every day.

    During Legion, you would even be able to see High Elf Shieldbearers sometimes whenever you picked your Order of Wrath ability that auto-completed a WQ for ya.
    Really? I only sporadically played a paladin during Legion. Always thought those were blood elves.

    Thus we know as recent as Legion they still exist.
    However, due to how rare they seem to be, I think their 'population' is not enough to warrant a class option like that, plus it doesn't fit with the high elf aesthetic and lore.

  4. #11564
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    However, due to how rare they seem to be, I think their 'population' is not enough to warrant a class option like that, plus it doesn't fit with the high elf aesthetic and lore.
    It may not be and I don't mind that as a concession to getting playable High Elves. I disagree that it doesn't fit though since that's originally how they existed before the Naaru stuff.

    "Blood elves were once high elves allied with the humans like the dwarves. Like the two others, high elves also believed in the Holy Light. A few were members of the Silver Hand, such as Mehlar Dawnblade, while others belonged to the high elven Royal Guard. The high elves began to distance themselves from Light worship after the Third War, during which Quel'Thalas came under the brutal attack of the undead Scourge. The survivors, now calling themselves blood elves, came to view the Light (which many believed had abandoned their homeland in its hour of greatest need) with contempt."

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Paladin_races

    It fits with high elf lore, it just wasn't advertised very much/at the forefront of their society. All that said, I already don't expect them to come with Paladins should they become playable, but their existence does predate the "Blood Elf Naaru imprisonment Paladin" era, albeit minor hence not an expectation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    However, all these suggestions have in common is that the proposed allied race is on the same faction as the parent race, therefore they do not compromise any sense of faction identity. So while I might feel the Wildhammer would be a bit of a waste of a slot, it's no skin off my nose if Alliance players want to agitate for it and I wish them luck in their endeavours.
    It's no skin off anyone's nose for any race that gets included on either faction, despite agreements or disagreements to its addition.

    But anyways, you speak of parent race, although I believe it is more likely if ever an implementation of "High Elven exiles" were playable then they'd more likely be seen on the Alliance side rather than Horde side.

    Given the fact that, y'know, High Elven exiles are already part of the Alliance and seen among them throughout their territories. Whereas I don't believe a "High Elven exile" would ever become playable under the "same faction as the parent race".

    High Elven exiles are indeed the exception to that "same faction as parent race" rule since they've already been cemented on the Alliance faction side for as long as WoW has existed.

    - - - Updated - - -

    As I wrote that last sentence I just realized that Void Elves are another group of Thalassian exiles that are on the Alliance faction. Therefore it seems this divide will always hold true: Thalassian exiles on the Alliance and Thalassian not-exiles on the Horde.

  5. #11565
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    It's okay we all know black people (or elves) are just ridiculous on a fantasy setting.

    Sure, we can deal with retcons to whole races like Draenei, Zandalari, Kul'tirans and Nightborne, but if you say that darker skin tones could be added to existing races? No sir that is just to darn far the lore is sacred (when it comes to add darker people) sacred I tell you!
    What's even better is there is nothing in the lore that actually prevents it from happening, contrary to some people's real-world racism that they are basing their headcanon on.

    Elisande said High Elves have mixed with Humans, that is official lore.

    Humans have the potential for dark skin, that is official lore.

    Therefore, High Elves too have the potential for dark skin, that is official lore because of simple deductive logic.

  6. #11566
    beautiful. Idk if they'll pick it though since we already have Void elves. I'd still want it though.

  7. #11567
    Quote Originally Posted by Fossil-Free View Post
    What's even better is there is nothing in the lore that actually prevents it from happening, contrary to some people's real-world racism that they are basing their headcanon on.

    Elisande said High Elves have mixed with Humans, that is official lore.

    Humans have the potential for dark skin, that is official lore.

    Therefore, High Elves too have the potential for dark skin, that is official lore because of simple deductive logic.
    Then they are not elves anymore. They are crossbreeds.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  8. #11568
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    I mean the fact that you keep harping on the skin color, which you are free to not vibe with, over the rest of the designs, is kinda telling of what your, preoccupations are.
    My "preoccupation", at least when it comes to Warcraft and the various beings present in the game's universe, is to point out when something is untrue to it's original, true depiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder
    But again, that you keep focusing on the skin tone of the character when the armor itself could go on any (like in fact I have the same armor with some "tier" differences on another character who is light skinned) is telling.
    Don't hide your inaccurate fanart that has zero consistency with Warcraft's universe behind lowkey jibes about me being racist. It's inaccurate, it's inconsistent and the main point of inaccuracy and inconsistency is the high elves' skin color. The facial anatomy is partially off too. It has "fanart value", but can easily draw flak over its inconsistencies.

    Those are supposed to be Warcraft's high elves with dark skin and such high elves don't exist. I really dig(no pun intended) Dark Iron dwarves, but I sure would point out if you made fanart of a black Kurdran Wildhammer or a white Dagran Thaurissan. The armor is decently accurate, so why would I ponder on that? I

    The fact that you have to resort to a lowkey racism-hinting card, instead of addressing the core issue of your inaccurate fanart and its complete inconsistency with what it is supposedly meant to represent, shows how you are unable to take criticism after pointedly putting your stuff out there for readers to judge. Instead of doing that, you should reckognize that it is very inaccurate.
    Last edited by Magnagarde; 2019-08-10 at 01:34 PM.

  9. #11569
    Quote Originally Posted by Fossil-Free View Post
    What's even better is there is nothing in the lore that actually prevents it from happening, contrary to some people's real-world racism that they are basing their headcanon on.

    Elisande said High Elves have mixed with Humans, that is official lore.

    Humans have the potential for dark skin, that is official lore.

    Therefore, High Elves too have the potential for dark skin, that is official lore because of simple deductive logic.
    Doesn’t environment shape skin color in the real world? It has something to do with vitamin D and sun exposure. Humans need a certain amount of vitamin D, not enough is bad and too much is bad too. Sun exposure allows for the production of Vitamin D.

    So I’m given to understand that people’s in the north lost skin pigmentation over thousands of years to allow their bodies to absorb all the sun they could get because there’s precious little of it in places like Northern Europe and Russia.

    Meanwhile people who settled or stayed in areas close to the equator that get tons of sunlight especially places with little tree cover developed or retained darker skin so as not to produce too much Vitamin D.

    At least that’s how it was explained to me.


    So all that’s required to have dark skinned Elves is for any group of Elves to have lived in an area with lots of sun n for a long time. And that’s without fantasy or magic entering into the discussion at all.

  10. #11570
    Quote Originally Posted by Fossil-Free View Post
    Elisande said High Elves have mixed with Humans, that is official lore.
    No, not really. At least not to the extend you seem to be implying it is.

    The only two high elves we know have mated with humans is Vereesa, and Alleria. Those are the only two we know are confirmed. Orphanages don't have half-elf children. So, for all we know, Alleria and Veressa are outliers.

    Elisande's sentence does not make it canon, however, as she could very easily have said that in the way she did to provoke Veressa and the high elves, attacking them on the fact they're exiles without a home.

  11. #11571
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    It's fine to discuss the palette of skin tones available to the Elven races, but let's make sure we don't introduce the trapping of real-world racial politics or race identity to this thread. Keep it confined to the fictional universe of Warcraft, and Elves specifically.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #11572
    Quote Originally Posted by Magnagarde View Post
    My "preoccupation", at least when it comes to Warcraft and the various beings present in the game's universe, is to point out when something is untrue to it's original, true depiction.

    Don't hide your inaccurate fanart that has zero consistency with Warcraft's universe behind lowkey jibes about me being racist. It's inaccurate, it's inconsistent and the main point of inaccuracy and inconsistency is the high elves' skin color. The facial anatomy is partially off too. It has "fanart value", but can easily draw flak over its inconsistencies.

    Those are supposed to be Warcraft's high elves with dark skin and such high elves don't exist. I really dig(no pun intended) Dark Iron dwarves, but I sure would point out if you made fanart of a black Kurdran Wildhammer or a white Dagran Thaurissan. The armor is decently accurate, so why would I ponder on that? I

    The fact that you have to resort to a lowkey racism-hinting card, instead of addressing the core issue of your inaccurate fanart and its complete inconsistency with what it is supposedly meant to represent, shows how you are unable to take criticism after pointedly putting your stuff out there for readers to judge. Instead of doing that, you should reckognize that it is very inaccurate.
    Dark Skinned High Elves Do exist in Lore, btw.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Devi

    She's from an alternative timeline, but her dark skin color is not remarked as something exceptional, or odd. Not even a hint of a mixed parentage, she's just presented as a dark skinned elf.

    But I dunno man, of all the hills to die on "there are no dark skinned elves" is just such a worthless one , specially when it's just me drawing my character, and it's like I'm personally offending you with the "inaccuracy" and "inconsistency"

    Regardless of such, I'd like to see expanded skin tones for every race, and in terms of retcons it's far lower than much more egregious changes, specially when skin tone doesn't have to carry any sociocultural weight in-group in azeroth, thus existing as an aesthetic choice. If all the answer you have to the idea of more expansive skin tone selection is "is inaccurate to the lore" then you both lack imagination and are sweeping under the carpet all the far more drastic changes in lore we have already

    But again, weird hill to die on.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Naruto is stooopid View Post
    Doesn’t environment shape skin color in the real world? It has something to do with vitamin D and sun exposure. Humans need a certain amount of vitamin D, not enough is bad and too much is bad too. Sun exposure allows for the production of Vitamin D.

    So I’m given to understand that people’s in the north lost skin pigmentation over thousands of years to allow their bodies to absorb all the sun they could get because there’s precious little of it in places like Northern Europe and Russia.

    Meanwhile people who settled or stayed in areas close to the equator that get tons of sunlight especially places with little tree cover developed or retained darker skin so as not to produce too much Vitamin D.

    At least that’s how it was explained to me.


    So all that’s required to have dark skinned Elves is for any group of Elves to have lived in an area with lots of sun n for a long time. And that’s without fantasy or magic entering into the discussion at all.
    Not necessarily. The inuit people live on the artic and have dark skin; several groups of non european lineage that live far south or north have dark skin tones, so it's less of an evolutionary rule (fair skin to get vitamin d) and more of a possibility.

    And specifically for the World of Warcraft, it really comes down to how sunlight could have affected the diverse range of Kaldorei skin, specially kaldorei living on different climates given how expansive the Kaldorei empire was.

    When it comes to it, the reasons why high elves are fair skinned aren't more deeper than Warcraft taking their cues from mainstream Lotro inspired Fantasy.

    Knowing the Blizz devs, wouldn't surprise me that if we ever got dark skinned elves it would be from an ecuatorian island lodge previously undisturbed, so who knows heh.

  13. #11573
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Several of those suggestions don't seem to offer much beyond what an already available option provides to the playerbase, for example Wildhammer are not a huge leap from Bronzebeard and definitely not in the same league as Dark Irons. Some, like the Broken, are completely viable.

    However, all these suggestions have in common is that the proposed allied race is on the same faction as the parent race, therefore they do not compromise any sense of faction identity. So while I might feel the Wildhammer would be a bit of a waste of a slot, it's no skin off my nose if Alliance players want to agitate for it and I wish them luck in their endeavours.
    So I'm assuming if/when Blizzard introduces cross-faction play as it's been hinted at and/or rumored for next expansion, you're going to react like this?


  14. #11574
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Several of those suggestions don't seem to offer much beyond what an already available option provides to the playerbase, for example Wildhammer are not a huge leap from Bronzebeard and definitely not in the same league as Dark Irons. Some, like the Broken, are completely viable.

    However, all these suggestions have in common is that the proposed allied race is on the same faction as the parent race, therefore they do not compromise any sense of faction identity. So while I might feel the Wildhammer would be a bit of a waste of a slot, it's no skin off my nose if Alliance players want to agitate for it and I wish them luck in their endeavours.
    Well I hate to break it to you, but this is irrelevant since the addition of Void Elves and Nightborne.

  15. #11575
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    So I'm assuming if/when Blizzard introduces cross-faction play as it's been hinted at and/or rumored for next expansion, you're going to react like this?

    Whilst that may be the fantasy of some pro High Elfers, no. The weakening of faction restrictions will be a matter of regret, however it will be something applied to all races within the game at the same time which will not single out Alliance High Elves for special treatment. Quite the contrary, under this system it would be clear that anyone who wished to play a traditional High Elf within the Alliance would be expected to create a Blood Elf for that purpose.

    Besides, I am not convinced this is where thing are actually going. It is definitely possible, and if it is happening the groundwork is being laid, but it doesn't chime at all with an interview earlier this year where Ion was asked if there would be a PVE version of mercenary mode to allow Alliance and Horde to work together in PVE content, i.e the entire point of cross-faction play, and he was seemingly very forthright that this was not going to happen. He could have been lying, or what will actually happen will conform to the letter of what he said if not the spirit, but we will know in 81 and a half days and to give a sense of just how quick that will pass, 81 days ago was the EU elections.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-08-12 at 07:41 AM.

  16. #11576
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    So I'm assuming if/when Blizzard introduces cross-faction play as it's been hinted at and/or rumored for next expansion, you're going to react like this? [SNIP]
    I would not care. I just want people to stop pretending that the High Elf NPCs in the game are somehow representative of their whole population, while the huge majority is called Blood Elves. I also want to point out that adding High Elves would only do a minor service to the die hard fans and wasting an Allied Race slot which could be put to a much better use. I would love to get Jinju for the Alliance instead. This would be a very cool and interesting addition, while High Elves ... are quite boring.

    Neverwinter had 2 sorts of "High Elves" races, one added later than the other, with only minor differences in the colour of hair and such. I did not feel that they have been that much of an enrichment to the game. Genasi or Dragonborn would have had a much greater impact for me. Same goes for the High Elves. I find Night Elves, Blood Elves, Nightborne and Void Elves all more interesting than High Elves.

    Also, we already have 4 Elven races in the game. This is enough. And it comes from a huge Elf fan, btw. Most of my characters belong to one of these races, followed by Trolls.

    I think that the game is better off with High Elves staying in their NPC role.

  17. #11577
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fossil-Free View Post
    Well I hate to break it to you, but this is irrelevant since the addition of Void Elves and Nightborne.
    Nightborne and Void Elves are thematically opposed to Night Elves and Blood Elves. Nightborne are arcane wielding, urbane city elves. Night Elves are druidic, rustic arboreal elves. Thematically, the Nightborne are far closer to the Blood Elves than they are to the Night Elves, which is appropriate given the common origin the Nightborne and Blood Elves share as Highborne within the Night Elf Empire. Nightborne do not infringe on the theme of the Night Elves.

    Void Elves are twisted elves orientated around the shadow. Blood Elves, and by extension Alliance High Elves who are the same people, are orientated around the light. The shadow and the light are in permanent opposition to each other and are thematic polar opposites.
    The Void Elves can be accused of picking up the old Blood Elf theme of messing with dangerous magic, except in this case they substituted the shadow for the fel, but the key term in that statement is 'old'. Blood Elves no longer mess with dangerous magics, that was an aberrant period in their history between the destruction and restoration of the Sunwell that has now concluded and left the Blood Elves being nothing more than traditional High Elves with a new adjective and new political allegiances. The Void Elves have therefore appropriated a discarded theme for themselves, and that is fine.

    But both groups are radically different from their parents in terms of theme and look and do not undermine the identity of their respective factions as a result. Nor do they serve as excuses to add further options to the Alliance and Horde that are closer to the original parents. The thematic distance of both groups from their parents was deliberate, not incidental.

  18. #11578
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Dark Skinned High Elves Do exist in Lore, btw.

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Devi

    She's from an alternative timeline, but her dark skin color is not remarked as something exceptional, or odd. Not even a hint of a mixed parentage, she's just presented as a dark skinned elf.

    But I dunno man, of all the hills to die on "there are no dark skinned elves" is just such a worthless one , specially when it's just me drawing my character, and it's like I'm personally offending you with the "inaccuracy" and "inconsistency"

    Regardless of such, I'd like to see expanded skin tones for every race, and in terms of retcons it's far lower than much more egregious changes, specially when skin tone doesn't have to carry any sociocultural weight in-group in azeroth, thus existing as an aesthetic choice. If all the answer you have to the idea of more expansive skin tone selection is "is inaccurate to the lore" then you both lack imagination and are sweeping under the carpet all the far more drastic changes in lore we have already

    But again, weird hill to die on.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Not necessarily. The inuit people live on the artic and have dark skin; several groups of non european lineage that live far south or north have dark skin tones, so it's less of an evolutionary rule (fair skin to get vitamin d) and more of a possibility.

    And specifically for the World of Warcraft, it really comes down to how sunlight could have affected the diverse range of Kaldorei skin, specially kaldorei living on different climates given how expansive the Kaldorei empire was.

    When it comes to it, the reasons why high elves are fair skinned aren't more deeper than Warcraft taking their cues from mainstream Lotro inspired Fantasy.

    Knowing the Blizz devs, wouldn't surprise me that if we ever got dark skinned elves it would be from an ecuatorian island lodge previously undisturbed, so who knows heh.
    Apparently Vitamin D deficiency is a problem in many Inuit communities. Especially those who live inland and have strayed away from traditional Inuit diets that were rich in Vitamin D foods.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417586/

  19. #11579
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    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    I would not care. I just want people to stop pretending that the High Elf NPCs in the game are somehow representative of their whole population,
    What an invent.

    No, High elves represent... Surprise! High elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    I also want to point out that adding High Elves would only do a minor service to the die hard fans and wasting an Allied Race slot which could be put to a much better use.
    Like Lightforged? Kul'tirans?

    Look, it's fine that you have preferences, but a 'finite' (strange concept) allied race slot can't have a 'better use' than to deliver what players want, the number of people wanting X thing only matter to those who are against that X. I'm sorry that your perception is not a truth, you call it garbage and waste. It isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    I would love to get Jinju for the Alliance instead. This would be a very cool and interesting addition, while High Elves ... are quite boring.
    What are you doing in this thread then? Go and open a Jinyu thread to talk about concepts for it or whatever, instead of being an obnoxious dead weight in here.

    Also, again, the world does not revolve around you. High elves are boring. For you.

    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    I find Night Elves, Blood Elves, Nightborne and Void Elves all more interesting than High Elves.
    I find Blood elves more interesting to play than Tauren.

    You are not gonna see me shitting on Tauren. Why? Because I am not a piece of trash and I am playing my Blood elves thank you very much.

    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    Also, we already have 4 Elven races in the game.
    How many of them are left? 2? 3? WOW what a quantity, such bloaty, very numbery!

    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    This is enough. And it comes from a huge Elf fan, btw. Most of my characters belong to one of these races, followed by Trolls.
    Good for you. However, 'enought' is not an empirical quantity I'm affraid. A good suggestion that you should take into account is to enjoy what you have, and realise how little this request affect you.

    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    I think that the game is better off with High Elves staying in their NPC role.
    And I think High elves are a piece of the Alliance that is lacking for players to play, as much as Dark Iron Dwarves were, as much as Mag'har Orcs were (not AU but whatever...).

    It's availability can only enrich.
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2019-08-12 at 10:02 AM.

  20. #11580
    Quote Originally Posted by Naruto is stooopid View Post
    Apparently Vitamin D deficiency is a problem in many Inuit communities. Especially those who live inland and have strayed away from traditional Inuit diets that were rich in Vitamin D foods.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3417586/
    Traditionally, they received most of their vitamin D from their hunting diet. And their skin is darker at a latitude where it should be lighter due to the reflection of UV rays off the snow and ice fields, as well as being on the water which also reflects a good deal as well. They require a greater intake of vitamin D than their ice-free and land-dwelling neighbors to the south (with light skin), which is obtained through the seals and other marine mammals they hunt. Of course, much of this has been rapidly changing with modernization, as you alluded to.

    This means that High Elves from somewhere really icy and who spend a lot of time on the water would probably also have dark skin.

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