1. #11621
    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Possibly, although we can't forget Alleria was the most anti orc elf to ever anti orc lol. Her whole arc on Beyond the Dark Portal was to be less extermination minded about the orcs hehe!
    I think that in very long talk Sylvanas could explain everything: the Mannoroth's blood, Scourge of Lordaeron, fall of Quel'thalas and so on. I don't think she would become Horde enthusiast but maybe she would turn neutral.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm not saying it is. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency between Obelisk Kai first saying that the process is repeatable, regarding the VE population argument, but then saying that it's NOT a repeatable process, meaning blood elves cannot get VE stuff like void powers or looks.
    Are we sure it is not repeatable? Maybe it is but Locus Walker doesn't want to explain it to Alleria.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  2. #11622
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    They are still blood elves. On top of that, we don't know if the process is reversible or not. As far as I can recall, I haven't even seen nor heard of a single void elf that regrets their choices and wishes they could change back. For all we know, there is a way to reverse the process, but the ren'dorei are maybe not interested in pursuing it, in going back to the way they were before.


    The concept of "transformation", in and of itself, does not imply said transformation is impossible to be undone.

    No, they are not still Blood Elves. They are clearly different from Blood Elves. If they were still the same as Blood Elves, they wouldn't be called Void Elves. They wouldn't have gone through a transformation. As for 'undoing' the process, sheer hypocrisy on your part. I have put forward a rationale for my belief that the Void Elves can reproduce by converting other Elves.

    1.) Moorgard's commentary
    2.) In game where the number of Void Elves does not match the small group present at the initial transformation.
    3.) Common sense in that if they couldn't reproduce, the Horde would have wiped them out by now given the number we have killed.

    You are extremely resistant to this because it suits your arguments to say 'Void Elves cannot reproduce', because if they could reproduce then they could reproduce from Alliance High Elves. They hypocrisy comes from you saying 'we don't know if the process can be reversed' and attempting to use that as a counter-point.

    While on the one hand you reject outright that they can convert other Elves, a position with actual evidence behind it, you hypocritically deploy a counter-argument that the transformation can be undone in an attempt to counter a point I made. There is absolutely no evidence that the process can be reversed. The presumption that the transformation is one way is therefore a fair assumption to operate under.

    Void Elves are differentiated from Blood/Alliance High Elves because the unique options available to Void Elves are a by-product of the transformation. You cannot be a blue skinned, tentacled Blood Elf any more than you can be a fair skinned, blonde haired Void Elf. Even were your completely hypothetical, literally zero evidence proposition that the transformation from Void Elf back into a Blood/Alliance High Elf possible, that would still some involve some sort of transitional, transformational process between the two states and would have no impact on the fact that those two states ARE differentiated.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Alleria is the living proof that it can be done. She alternates back and forth between both "stages", 'void elf' and 'high elf', so why couldn't, or shouldn't, that process be replicated for the other elves?
    Well I think I may have answered this before for you but I am not adverse to doing so again. Alleria is a hero character, like Anduin (who is a plate wearing, sword wielding priest) and others. The rules that apply to hero characters don't necessarily apply to player characters. And to be more specific, Alleria came by her powers a completely different way in that she ate the heart of a dark naaru to become a Void Elf rather than being blasted by void energies in a failed attempt to turn them into an ethereal. Now, if Blizzard allows players to become Void Elves by repeating the process Alleria did then sure, they can have their 'switch form' mode, however Dark Naaru are exceptionally, extremely rare. You know, the kind of occurrence you'd use in the plotline of a hero character rather than making available to every Tom, Dick and Harry Void Elf. This of course is not to say that Blizzard will not eventually give Void Elf like skins to the Void Elves...but that will still be a Void Elf, and won't be done the same way Alleria came by her abilities.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    This is something I have repeated over and over, and you repeatedly fail to acknowledge this. If it's because you're being intentionally confrontational, or intentionally obtuse, I don't know, but whenever we say the name "high elf" here, we're not talking about the entire Thalassian race, but the group, currently in game, that still maintains the name "high elf". The "high elf exiles", as @Aucald puts it.
    I note the phrase 'intentionally obtuse', which Aucald has used. 'High Elf exile' is also a phrase Aucald has deployed. I am glad to see he has enriched your writing style.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    There is already a name that is used to describe the entire elven race: "Thalassian elf". You used that name as well, so why is it so hard for you to understand and acknowledge that when we say "high elves" we're talking about the group of elves in the lore that still maintain that name for themselves, that did not re-brand themselves at Kael'Thas behest, and did not follow Kael'Thas' edict of draining mana from living beings, and not the entire Thalassian race?
    Because the entire thrust of the pro High Elf position is that the Alliance High Elves are a distinct race. Reserving the name 'High Elf' for just the Alliance High Elves implicitly concedes the point. This is not the case.

    Void Elves have been described as 'another flavour of High Elves'. They are 'NOT' the Alliance High Elves, well, most of them aren't. Some of them clearly were. But they are High Elves. Just a different type.
    Blood Elves, as you WERE told, ARE High Elves.
    Alliance High Elves ARE High Elves too, but to call them High Elves alone is to privilege their claim to the legacy of the entire race, which as they dying dregs of a political splinter faction they don't deserve.

    So there is a High Elf race, also known as the Thalassian Elves. There are two types of thalassian elf, Blood/Alliance High Elves and Void Elves. There are not three.
    Among the Blood/Alliance High Elf type, there is a political split between the overwhelming majority of their people and a tiny band of exiles.

    In a similar vein, there are four Tauren races. Mulgore, Highmountain, Yaungol and Taunka. There are not five despite the political split between the Mulgore Tauren and the Grimtotem. The Grimtotem are a political faction of the Mulgore Tauren who are currently in exile. They do not constitute a distinct Tauren race. As with the Grimtotem, so the Alliance High Elves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm not saying it is. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency between Obelisk Kai first saying that the process is repeatable, regarding the VE population argument, but then saying that it's NOT a repeatable process, meaning blood elves cannot get VE stuff like void powers or looks.
    And this seems like a perfect TLDR as it shows you completely misunderstood the initial point. The process IS repeatable, but you cannot simultaneously be a Blood/Alliance High Elf and a Void Elf. They are two distinct states, separated by a transformative process. Therefore, if you are a Blood Elf and go through the process, you gain VE looks and powers but you become a Void Elf and stop being a Blood/Alliance High Elf.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-08-16 at 10:58 AM.

  3. #11623
    Brewmaster elbleuet's Avatar
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    Blood elves aren't High elves. They're fel corrupted or light corrupted Thalasian elves.

    The untouched elves are those who sided with the Alliance.

    And blood elves never defined themselves as high elves.

    Face it. You will never get Horde High elves and that's a good thing because High elves are an iconic race of the Alliance.
    "If you want to play alongside High and Void elves, the Alliance is waiting for you"

  4. #11624
    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Blood elves aren't High elves. They're fel corrupted or light corrupted Thalasian elves.

    The untouched elves are those who sided with the Alliance.

    And blood elves never defined themselves as high elves.

    Face it. You will never get Horde High elves and that's a good thing because High elves are an iconic race of the Alliance.
    Nobody wants Horde "High Elves". We have Blood Elves, the true heirs of Silvermoon. But after the restoration of the Sunwell, they are phsically quite the same as the renegade High Elves - because the renegades are allowed to visit the Sunwell, although they are traitors.

  5. #11625
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Blood elves aren't High elves. They're fel corrupted or light corrupted Thalasian elves.
    Blood Elves ARE High Elves according to the Game Director. And if they are light corrupted, so are the Alliance High Elves.

    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    The untouched elves are those who sided with the Alliance.
    These Elves also have an addiction they need to sate. They are not 'untouched'.

    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    And blood elves never defined themselves as high elves.
    Every Blood Elf alive today except the very youngest defined themselves as High Elves in the not too distant past, and given their lifespans are thousands of years long, over 99% of their lifespans.

    Quote Originally Posted by elbleuet View Post
    Face it. You will never get Horde High elves and that's a good thing because High elves are an iconic race of the Alliance.
    Blood Elves ARE Horde High Elves...so I guess you are right. We will never get what we already have. It would be like asking to have your favorite t-shirt you are wearing. Alliance High Elves are not however an iconic Alliance race and insisting they are iconic merely demonstrates are an ignorance of or a contempt for existing lore.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-08-16 at 09:23 AM.

  6. #11626
    Quote Originally Posted by KidorioL View Post
    It is true that Blood elves represent the fantasy High elf trope, but the actual Warcraft High elves represent it's own unique trope separate from the standard High elf trope.
    High elves aren't supremacist, arrogant or overly racist. They're humble, friendly and supporting of the Alliance and their human allies and even Horde races in some cases.

    They're their own unique elf trope and that's what has attracted many people to them, it was never having blonde pretty elves in the Alliance.
    This is literally what Obelisk Kai's (and a lot of "antis" in general's) baseline is made from, dude. "High Elf fans" like to have in their head that it's a divide between "good blue-eyed elves" and "bad green-eyed elves", completely disregarding an entire world's history and dismissing two separate races' entire stories.

    Using "overly racist" vs "racist" isn't gonna save you any face, the High Elves are incredulously racist, and worse, they're hypocritical when it comes to their racism, as they'd rather stay in bed with the Alliance than stick up for their not-even-as-distant-as-cousins in Silvermoon. I'm not saying that's something to hate about them, there's tons of interesting thoughts to think there and things you can possibly do with that storytelling wise, but that's the reality of it. They are more "supremacist", arrogant, and racist, than their kin and on top of it they aren't honest about it in any capacity. Again, that doesn't mean they're not cool or worthy of affection, but pretending it's the opposite because "blood elves bad" is just fucking non-sense.

    I don't think the "anti" argument of "high elves rob the blood elf fantasy >:[" is very honest, even when long-time posters and friends like Obelisk Kai do it, but then posts like these justify them entirely (on a public forum level). Just because the High Elves aren't named something as edgy and portray themselves as taking the moral high-ground doesn't mean they aren't capable of having negative traits, and the specific traits you assign to Blood Elves to make them look bad are all specifically ones that are worse in the High Elf pop regardless.

    If you want High Elves, and boy, do I, you cannot sit here and condescend that High Elves are the good guys and Blood Elves are the bad guys. Not only is it objectively false, but you create more opposition for them actually ever coming by sowing discord among potential fans with sweeping lines like "ugh, High Elves are just better than those supremacist, arrogant, racist Blood Elves "

  7. #11627
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Are we sure it is not repeatable? Maybe it is but Locus Walker doesn't want to explain it to Alleria.
    I'm not saying it is, or it isn't, really.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    No, they are not still Blood Elves. They are clearly different from Blood Elves. If they were still the same as Blood Elves, they wouldn't be called Void Elves.
    By that rationale, "blood elves" are not "high elves" anymore, or else they wouldn't have taken that new name. Names are just that: names. One very possible reason they took on a new name was because they were ostracized and banished from their own homes, and decided to carve a new path for themselves.

    But they are still blood elves. They just got a different makeover. What you're doing is saying that the lightforged draenei are no longer draenei, that the highmountain tauren are no longer tauren.

    As for 'undoing' the process, sheer hypocrisy on your part. I have put forward a rationale for my belief that the Void Elves can reproduce by converting other Elves.

    1.) Moorgard's commentary
    2.) In game where the number of Void Elves does not match the small group present at the initial transformation.
    3.) Common sense in that if they couldn't reproduce, the Horde would have wiped them out by now given the number we have killed.


    You are extremely resistant to this because it suits your arguments to say 'Void Elves cannot reproduce', because if they could reproduce then they could reproduce from Alliance High Elves. They hypocrisy comes from you saying 'we don't know if the process can be reversed' and attempting to use that as a counter-point.
    This entire thing has nothing to do with what I wrote regarding my claim about the transformation not being necessarily impossible to be reversed. You went on a huge tangent and went off-course, considering I never once mentioned anything about "reproduction" or "population" in the section you quoted.

    While on the one hand you reject outright that they can convert other Elves, a position with actual evidence behind it, you hypocritically deploy a counter-argument that the transformation can be undone in an attempt to counter a point I made. There is absolutely no evidence that the process can be reversed. The presumption that the transformation is one way is therefore a fair assumption to operate under.
    False. On all accounts. I never said that the transformation can be reversed, I only said it could be, because we have no evidence that it cannot.

    Void Elves are differentiated from Blood/Alliance High Elves because the unique options available to Void Elves are a by-product of the transformation. You cannot be a blue skinned, tentacled Blood Elf any more than you can be a fair skinned, blonde haired Void Elf. Even were your completely hypothetical, literally zero evidence proposition that the transformation from Void Elf back into a Blood/Alliance High Elf possible, that would still some involve some sort of transitional, transformational process between the two states and would have no impact on the fact that those two states ARE differentiated.
    Void elves are "blue-skinned, tentacled blood elves". That aside: yes, you technically can. Alleria Windrunner is the living proof that it is possible. What converted the first void elves, i.e., Umbric's group, was a seemingly chaotic process that got interrupted "in the middle". What converted Alleria was a controlled process. Considering we see both Alleria and Locus-Walker in the Telogrus Rift zone, why couldn't Alleria, or even Locus-Walker, use that same process to convert new void elves instead of relying in the same process that almost consumed Umbric and his group?

    Well I think I may have answered this before for you but I am not adverse to doing so again. Alleria is a hero character, like Anduin (who is a plate wearing, sword wielding priest) and others. The rules that apply to hero characters don't necessarily apply to player characters. And to be more specific, Alleria came by her powers a completely different way in that she ate the heart of a dark naaru to become a Void Elf rather than being blasted by void energies in a failed attempt to turn them into an ethereal. Now, if Blizzard allows players to become Void Elves by repeating the process Alleria did then sure, they can have their 'switch form' mode, however Dark Naaru are exceptionally, extremely rare. You know, the kind of occurrence you'd use in the plotline of a hero character rather than making available to every Tom, Dick and Harry Void Elf. This of course is not to say that Blizzard will not eventually give Void Elf like skins to the Void Elves...but that will still be a Void Elf, and won't be done the same way Alleria came by her abilities.
    Alleria's case is not the same as Anduin or similar "notorious NPCs". And before you claim "special pleading", let me explain: Alleria's situation is about her body, her self, and not about which armor she wears or what spells she has. Alleria's process from "high elf"→"void elf" was explained in the lore, and demonstrated in the game. Yes, she consumed the "heart" of a fallen Naaru, but that was not the entire process. We also saw her consuming the "heart" of a void revenant, and we also know that is also not the entirety of the process as Alleria and Locus-Walker's banter during their quest chain in Mac'Aree suggests that Alleria has already been "studying" with Locus-Walker, and even in her very first appearance in Argus she's already demonstrating void powers. For all we know, the reason that Alleria has "gone void" after consuming the fallen Naaru's "heart" was because the thing was almost too powerful and she had to focus to contain it.

    The point is: "consuming a fallen Naaru's 'heart'" is not the totality of the process of 'converting to the void', and it doesn't need to be necessary for it, either. A simple "consuming a void naaru is too risky, so we advise not to do it" rationale would work, especially if the version of the conversion process for new void elves from Alleria and Locus-Walker is a condensed, shortened, "tl-dr" version of the original for expedience's sake.

    I note the phrase 'intentionally obtuse', which Aucald has used. 'High Elf exile' is also a phrase Aucald has deployed. I am glad to see he has enriched your writing style.
    Not really. I used the sentence "intentionally obtuse" waaaaaaaay before Aucald used that sentence in this debate. As for "high elf exiles", I gotta try something to get through to you.

    Because the entire thrust of the pro High Elf position is that the Alliance High Elves are a distinct race. Reserving the name 'High Elf' for just the Alliance High Elves implicitly concedes the point. This is not the case.
    There is no "implying" anything. High elves are a separate group from the blood elves in the game, already.

    Void Elves have been described as 'another flavour of High Elves'. They are 'NOT' the Alliance High Elves, well, most of them aren't. Some of them clearly were. But they are High Elves. Just a different type.
    Blood Elves, as you WERE told, ARE High Elves.
    Alliance High Elves ARE High Elves too, but to call them High Elves alone is to privilege their claim to the legacy of the entire race, which as they dying dregs of a political splinter faction they don't deserve.
    "Clearly were"? Sounds a lot like a simple assumption with no real evidence to back it up. As for what comes after: it's irrelevant. Blood elves are no longer high elves in name. They are blood elves. When discussing high elves, blood elves and void elves, the name "high elf" can no longer be used to describe the entire thalassian race, considering there is still a group within the game that is named "high elf". The most honest thing to do is to start referring to the entire race as "thalassian elf" while leaving the name "high elf" to the ones that still use that name.

    "Ah but then the culture and privilege of it..." Bollocks. The legacy of the "entire race" still belong to the Thalassian elves. To the high elves, to the blood elves, to the void elves. It's just really amusing that you say that "name changing doesn't mean anything" when people say that the blood elves are no longer high elves because they rebranded themselves, but the moment "rebranding" is used here to start calling the entire elven race by another name... suddenly "name changing" means everything?

    So there is a High Elf race, also known as the Thalassian Elves. There are two types of thalassian elf, Blood/Alliance High Elves and Void Elves. There are not three.
    Among the Blood/Alliance High Elf type, there is a political split between the overwhelming majority of their people and a tiny band of exiles.
    No. Where "allied race" mechanics and requirements are concerned, there are three "types" of thalassian elves: high elves, blood elves and void elves. You don't see high elves strolling around in blood elf lands, and you don't see blood elves strolling in high elf lands.

    High elves are separate from the blood elves politically, and culturally. Just like the "void" changes the void elves culturally from the blood elves, as you like to claim, so do their situation (i.e., their exile from Silvermoon) change the high elves' culture from the blood elves.

    In a similar vein, there are four Tauren races. Mulgore, Highmountain, Yaungol and Taunka. There are not five despite the political split between the Mulgore Tauren and the Grimtotem. The Grimtotem are a political faction of the Mulgore Tauren who are currently in exile. They do not constitute a distinct Tauren race. As with the Grimtotem, so the Alliance High Elves.
    Actually... yes, they do. Where the game mechanics of "playable race" and "playable allied race" are concerned, yes, the Grimtotem Tauren are a distinct, separate "race".
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  8. #11628
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Blood Elves ARE High Elves according to the Game Director. And if they are light corrupted, so are the Alliance High Elves.
    You’ve been asked for proof of this by me for a while now and I’m not sure if you just haven’t seen my posts on it or choose to ignore it.

    Moorgard clarified on how they deal with the Golden Eyes for NPCs and yet we do not see any Alliance High Elves with Golden Eyes.

    They did go ahead and correct the Green Eyes that Frostfencer Seraphi had originally to Blue Eyes though.

    Forstfencer Seraphi doesn’t come across as an “important NPC” relegating the need to make a relatively small change such as fixing his eye color.

    So how come they took the time to fix a random High Elf’s eye color to Blue on Alliance but haven’t done the same with plunking Gold Eyes on an Alliance High Elf NPC?

    You said the same thing that occurs to Blood Elves regarding the Sunwell must occur to Alliance High Elves.

    We have been told Golden Eyes occur due to the devotion to Light.

    Therefore if no Alliance High Elves have Golden Eyes that must mean the entire group must not be devoted to the Sunwell/Light as Blood Elves or that they are not affected by the Sunwell in the same way as Blood Elves.

  9. #11629
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    A Thalassian has to actively worship the light through the Sunwell to suffer the physical change of the golden eyes.

    It is NOT a passive thing that happens to everyone, and High elves do NOT use the light magic from the Sunwell, since they never harmonized with the essence of M'uru.

    Draenei worship the light through the Naaru, Blood elves do through the essence of a Naaru in the Sunwell.

    High elves believe in the light the same way humans and dwarves do.

  10. #11630
    Keyboard Turner Hrazmadul's Avatar
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    I guess Blizzard was wrong in their cinematic then? Not sure why they specifically tell all 3 groups apart.
    Cant post links youtube below
    watch?v=fn4M1q-a38E
    also brought up ages ago by Taliesin
    watch?v=C2Sr-sadSk4

  11. #11631
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    You’ve been asked for proof of this by me for a while now and I’m not sure if you just haven’t seen my posts on it or choose to ignore it.
    That Game Director never said it and he knows it. I really don't feel like there is a point to waste time on someone who really is not actually arguing in good faith and just bends his own arguments depending on when it suits him.

  12. #11632
    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    I think that in very long talk Sylvanas could explain everything: the Mannoroth's blood, Scourge of Lordaeron, fall of Quel'thalas and so on. I don't think she would become Horde enthusiast but maybe she would turn neutral.
    Neutral always felt like a possibility; joining the horde did not.

  13. #11633
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Neutral always felt like a possibility; joining the horde did not.
    I don't know how it would have been otherwise, honestly. Seems like there is a perception that the story can go so many ways that the idea of something following a path dictated by the likes of the characters and the context is just too linear.

    I don't know, it's like thinking Genn could simply learn about the struggles the horde had to endure and comprehend that everyone was a victim and just make peace with the Alliance, when even in the real world this is not what usually happens because even with understanding of the whole situation, one can simply not forgive.

  14. #11634
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    I don't know how it would have been otherwise, honestly. Seems like there is a perception that the story can go so many ways that the idea of something following a path dictated by the likes of the characters and the context is just too linear.

    I don't know, it's like thinking Genn could simply learn about the struggles the horde had to endure and comprehend that everyone was a victim and just make peace with the Alliance, when even in the real world this is not what usually happens because even with understanding of the whole situation, one can simply not forgive.
    Alleria is Sylvanas' sister and Quel'thalas is her kingdom. She should not love Stormwind over them.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

  15. #11635
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matrix123mko View Post
    Alleria is Sylvanas' sister and Quel'thalas is her kingdom. She should not love Stormwind over them.
    She was out of the world for quite some time, before all of that happened.

    In fact, after the old horde attacked Quel'thalas. And she is not only married to Turalyon, who is an Alliance war hero, she also has a kid with him and also another sister who is allied with the Alliance that also shares the same vision about not quite liking the horde so to speak.

    Knowing out of the blue that her sister Sylvanas was not only the queen of a realm populated by undead, and an undead herself, and also the warchief of the horde, didn't help at all.

    It would have went against the same character to simply ally with the horde. Or even going neutral, which is more plausible, but less likely given the way the character is written.

  16. #11636
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    She was out of the world for quite some time, before all of that happened.
    Of course she was.
    In fact, after the old horde attacked Quel'thalas.
    I am aware of that.
    And she is not only married to Turalyon, who is an Alliance war hero, she also has a kid with him
    Turalyon was Lordaeronian, not Stormwindian.
    and also another sister who is allied with the Alliance that also shares the same vision about not quite liking the horde so to speak.
    But she always tried to maintain relative peace between two factions because she loved Sylvanas.
    Knowing out of the blue that her sister Sylvanas was not only the queen of a realm populated by undead,
    Ex Lordaeronians would be better term. Forsaken are the original Alliance, after all.
    and an undead herself,
    And Alleria is a monster with tentacles. She should not prejudice.
    and also the warchief of the horde, didn't help at all.
    So she, and entire Quel'thalas, could be an indicator that new Horde is trustworthy.
    It would have went against the same character to simply ally with the horde.
    Of course, she has a trauma with orcs.
    Or even going neutral, which is more plausible, but less likely given the way the character is written.
    It would be totally plausible and even more interesting. After all, she hates the old Horde because of deep love to her brother. Prior to Legion, she was portrayed as someone who loved her family over anything. Imagine her standing before tragic dilemma: choice between two beloved sisters who stand against eachother, between country she sworn to protect and her only son. There is no right choice. Even neutrality is acceptance of death of the weaker.
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...lopment-thread
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    If you are suggesting to take my Night Elfs Shadowmeld away, then please find some pike to run yourself through, tyvm.

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    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    By that rationale, "blood elves" are not "high elves" anymore, or else they wouldn't have taken that new name. Names are just that: names. One very possible reason they took on a new name was because they were ostracized and banished from their own homes, and decided to carve a new path for themselves.
    No, the same rationale does not apply. Blood Elves merely renamed themselves as Blood Elves in honor of the fallen. As the timeline shows, the Elves who lived in Quel'lithien MUST have called themselves Blood Elves for a period because they were exiled from Quel'thalas long after Kael'thas had renamed his people, when Lor'themar was serving as a true Regent. After they were exiled, they dropped calling themselves Blood Elves and reverted to calling themselves High Elves again in order to make a political point. Names are just names for a people who are in every other respect identical to each other and these particular elves changed names very rapidly over a very short period of time.

    Void Elves on the other hand have been changed from what a baseline thalassian elf is due to the failed attempt to change them into Ethereals, which left them in an in-between state. One is not analogous to the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But they are still blood elves. They just got a different makeover. What you're doing is saying that the lightforged draenei are no longer draenei, that the highmountain tauren are no longer tauren.
    No, they are not still Blood Elves. A Blood Elf has a one to one correspondence with the conception of a traditional warcraft high elf, a Void Elf is not a traditional style warcraft high elf. They are a different flavour of high elf, they are similar (not identical) to Blood Elves, they are transformed.
    And yes, a Lightforged Draenei is not the same as the other Draenei. If there were no differences as a result of the Lightforging process, the lightforging process would not be required. A Lightforged Draenei is a different flavour of Draenei, distinct from the baseline 'normal' Draenei. In this, they are analogous to the Void Elves in that have they have been differentiated from ordinary Draenei by an outside force, in this case the light rather than the void.
    The Highmountain Tauren are a variant of the Tauren, all Tauren are variants of the initial Tauren race, the Yaungol. The Highmountain are differentiated in their separation from other Tauren for the past ten millenia in Highmountain, and the Blessing of Cenarius that caused them to develop moose like antlers rather than bovine horns.

    In all counter examples you list, the same truism holds. The group you cite is differentiated on some fundamental level from their parent, forming a distinct evolutionary offshoot that is either the by-product of an outside transformative force, or biological and lore separation that is the by-product of the passage of time.
    Alliance High Elves do not qualify as they are not an offshot, they are political refugees identical in every respect to the core population beyond their political position..

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    This entire thing has nothing to do with what I wrote regarding my claim about the transformation not being necessarily impossible to be reversed. You went on a huge tangent and went off-course, considering I never once mentioned anything about "reproduction" or "population" in the section you quoted.
    The response is predicated on the fact you are attempt to create a smokescreen by suggesting, without any evidence to support your position, with no examples in game or developer commentary outside it, that the Void Elf transformation can be reversed. The reason this position was put forward was to counter a point I had made. However, as there is zero evidence that the transformation cannot be reversed, it is not a point worthy of consideration.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    False. On all accounts. I never said that the transformation can be reversed, I only said it could be, because we have no evidence that it cannot.
    That there is no evidence it cannot be is irrelevant. There is no evidence that the moons of Azeroth are not made of cheese. That does not mean we have to give serious consideration to the idea that they could be. Until such time as the potential to reverse the transformation is brought up, the presumption is that the transformation is permanent.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Void elves are "blue-skinned, tentacled blood elves". That aside: yes, you technically can. Alleria Windrunner is the living proof that it is possible. What converted the first void elves, i.e., Umbric's group, was a seemingly chaotic process that got interrupted "in the middle". What converted Alleria was a controlled process. Considering we see both Alleria and Locus-Walker in the Telogrus Rift zone, why couldn't Alleria, or even Locus-Walker, use that same process to convert new void elves instead of relying in the same process that almost consumed Umbric and his group?
    Void Elves are not Blood Elves. They are former Blood Elves transformed by an intervention from the Void. What the transformation did was create an entirely new type of high elf, where before there was just one type there are now two, but they are no longer Blood Elves.

    As for Alleria, once again, her transformation came about due to incredibly unique circumstances involving an incredibly rare entity, a fallen Naaru whose heart she consumed. This is possible because, as a hero character, Alleria is written in a such way that grants her a unique status and a unique narrative. Given the extreme rarity of a fallen Naaru, there is no way every potential Void Elf could harvest the heart of one to provoke a transformation similar to Alleria's.
    So, the mass transformation triggered by being bombarded by void energies is a simpler way conceived of by Blizzard to create a population of Void Elves as Alleria's method is impossible to repeat on a large scale that is consistent with the lore.

    And of course, the Void Elves are blue/gray/purple for a reason, to provide aesthetic differences between Void Elves and the Blood Elves. Their skin tone is a feature, not an aberration. After all, had they wished to grant Alleria like abilities to the Void Elves that came after her as a result of a process they created in lore for the specific purpose of creating more Void Elves, they were perfectly able to do so. They did not. A deliberate choice in other words.

    Skin tone differentiation has been used as the primary aesthetic difference on multiple allied races. Dwarves and Dark Iron. Nightborne and Night Elves. Lightforged Draenei and Draenei. Orcs and Mag'har Orcs. Void Elves fall into the same pattern as the rest of these groups.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Alleria's case is not the same as Anduin or similar "notorious NPCs". And before you claim "special pleading", let me explain: Alleria's situation is about her body, her self, and not about which armor she wears or what spells she has. Alleria's process from "high elf"→"void elf" was explained in the lore, and demonstrated in the game. Yes, she consumed the "heart" of a fallen Naaru, but that was not the entire process. We also saw her consuming the "heart" of a void revenant, and we also know that is also not the entirety of the process as Alleria and Locus-Walker's banter during their quest chain in Mac'Aree suggests that Alleria has already been "studying" with Locus-Walker, and even in her very first appearance in Argus she's already demonstrating void powers. For all we know, the reason that Alleria has "gone void" after consuming the fallen Naaru's "heart" was because the thing was almost too powerful and she had to focus to contain it.

    The point is: "consuming a fallen Naaru's 'heart'" is not the totality of the process of 'converting to the void', and it doesn't need to be necessary for it, either. A simple "consuming a void naaru is too risky, so we advise not to do it" rationale would work, especially if the version of the conversion process for new void elves from Alleria and Locus-Walker is a condensed, shortened, "tl-dr" version of the original for expedience's sake.
    We have been over this. The transformation to her void elf form was clearly depicted in game as the by-product of her eating the heart of a dark Naaru. There was an entire cinematic dedicated to it. Sylvanas in the three sister's comic accuses her sister of hypocrisy over her upset at Sylvanas being undead by accusing her of being 'tranformed-nay-twisted by a fallen Naaru'?. Every time Alleria's transformation is referenced, it is tied back to that consumption of the essence of a dark Naaru.

    That is the clear narrative function of why she consumed a Naaru in the first place. She completed the other steps you list and they did not result in her turning into a Void Elf, though they were clearly steps along the way to her being primed to absorb the essence of a Dark Naaru and thereby effect her transformation. As with your previous ideas regarding the possibility the Void Elf transformation can be reversed. this theory has no evidence behind it and is clearly contrary to the intent expressed by the narrative. Until demonstrated otherwise, and it won't be, absorbing void entities is not a path towards triggering a transformation into an Alleria type Void Elf. We only have evidence that consuming a dark naaru heart can provoke that transformation. We have no evidence for anything else.




    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Not really. I used the sentence "intentionally obtuse" waaaaaaaay before Aucald used that sentence in this debate. As for "high elf exiles", I gotta try something to get through to you.
    Please, I fully understand your position. I am very careful in my use of terminology. I don't call that group 'Alliance High Elves' because I enjoy typing the word Alliance so often. While I understand your position, I absolutely reject it and categorizing Alliance High Elves as Alliance High Elves is my way of showing that. Aucald's terminology of High Elf exile is also acceptable, but I've been using Alliance High Elf for quite a while now so it is typed mostly out of habit.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    There is no "implying" anything. High elves are a separate group from the blood elves in the game, already.
    In the same fashion that the Grimtotem are separate from the rest of the Tauren of Mulgore, or the Defias are separate from the Humans of Stormwind. Divided by politics, nothing else.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    "Clearly were"? Sounds a lot like a simple assumption with no real evidence to back it up.
    1.) Moorgard's commentary
    2.) In game where the number of Void Elves does not match the small group present at the initial transformation.
    3.) Common sense in that if they couldn't reproduce, the Horde would have wiped them out by now given the number we have killed.

    That is evidence. Admittedly, not irrefutable evidence, but evidence sourced from developers and from the game itself.

    Frankly, leaving evidence aside, I figure it's just a matter of time till their ability to convert other elves is confirmed beyond all doubt one way or another. The idea that the only Void Elves are the tiny group present at the initial transformation is preposterous. If Blizzard intends for them to have a future in game, they have to be able to make more just to keep their story going.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    As for what comes after: it's irrelevant. Blood elves are no longer high elves in name. They are blood elves. When discussing high elves, blood elves and void elves, the name "high elf" can no longer be used to describe the entire thalassian race, considering there is still a group within the game that is named "high elf". The most honest thing to do is to start referring to the entire race as "thalassian elf" while leaving the name "high elf" to the ones that still use that name.
    Blood Elves ARE High Elves. As you said earlier, names don't matter, and I agree when it is between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves. A Blood Elf IS a High Elf in every respect but name. So when I say Blood Elves ARE High Elves, I refer to the former meaning, of a traditional style High Elf as seen before the end of Warcraft 3. But Blood Elves redefined what a High Elf is, that is a Blood Elf, when they changed their name as was their right. What the Alliance High Elves mean by their use of the term 'High Elf' is not the same as it was before the fall of Silvermoon. It has now been politicised by the exiles to mean 'not a Blood Elf' and does not mean what it meant in the past. What it exemplifies is a political distinction only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    "Ah but then the culture and privilege of it..." Bollocks. The legacy of the "entire race" still belong to the Thalassian elves. To the high elves, to the blood elves, to the void elves. It's just really amusing that you say that "name changing doesn't mean anything" when people say that the blood elves are no longer high elves because they rebranded themselves, but the moment "rebranding" is used here to start calling the entire elven race by another name... suddenly "name changing" means everything?
    No, the legacy of Quel'thalas belongs to the Blood Elves. A legacy is what is left to your successors. What the High Elves built was the Kingdom of Quel'thalas and everything that went with it. The Blood Elves, as the inheritors of that Kingdom ARE the heirs to the legacy of Quel'thalas. It is why Prince Kael had the right to rename the entire race from High Elf to Blood Elf. Those that rejected the legacy claimed the moniker High Elf, and seek legitimization not based on their own terms but because of their loyalty to the Alliance. A name change alone is pretty meaningless as a point of differentiation, as between Blood Elves and Alliance Elves. When accompanied by something else, such as a failed transformation that leaves the targets in a midway state, the name change gains substance from all other alterations, such as that between Blood/Alliance High Elves and Void Elves.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    No. Where "allied race" mechanics and requirements are concerned, there are three "types" of thalassian elves: high elves, blood elves and void elves. You don't see high elves strolling around in blood elf lands, and you don't see blood elves strolling in high elf lands.
    Completely false. Alliance High Elves were rejected as an Allied race on the grounds that they were identical to Blood Elves. You cannot claim to have three distinct types of something if two of your three proposals are regarded as identical. There are therefore two types of thalssian elf, traditional style high elves as represented by Blood Elves/Alliance High Elves, and the new void variant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    High elves are separate from the blood elves politically, and culturally. Just like the "void" changes the void elves culturally from the blood elves, as you like to claim, so do their situation (i.e., their exile from Silvermoon) change the high elves' culture from the blood elves.
    They are separate politically. They are not separate culturally. The Void is a pervasive force with a transformative physical and mental impact on the Void Elves. The exile from Silvermoon is the political situation the Alliance High Elves are in. Hence, political difference.

    And I see high elves strolling around the Kingdom of Quel'thalas all the time. The vast majority in fact. And I see Blood Elves strolling around in High Elf lands too. Same people in the same lands.

    If you meant Blood Elves in Alliance High Elf lands, that is of course a nonsense and completely impossible.
    Alliance High Elves don't HAVE lands. They live in someone else's territory.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Actually... yes, they do. Where the game mechanics of "playable race" and "playable allied race" are concerned, yes, the Grimtotem Tauren are a distinct, separate "race".
    That you believe the Grimtotem are a separate race due to their political circumstances underscores either a failure to grasp how race functions in Warcraft, or is something you feel you have to argue as your internal logic for justifying Alliance High Elves as a separate 'race' demands it lest you be accused of inconsistency.

    No, Grimtotem Tauren are not a separate race. They are a renegade tribe of Mulgore Tauren and they were not magically transformed into a different races when Baine kicked them out of Mulgore. The sheer illogicity of this suggestion and belief helpfully demonstrates the nonsensical logic at the core of arguing that Alliance High Elves are as distinct a race from Blood Elves as Void Elves are a distinct race from Blood Elves.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    You’ve been asked for proof of this by me for a while now and I’m not sure if you just haven’t seen my posts on it or choose to ignore it.

    Moorgard clarified on how they deal with the Golden Eyes for NPCs and yet we do not see any Alliance High Elves with Golden Eyes.

    They did go ahead and correct the Green Eyes that Frostfencer Seraphi had originally to Blue Eyes though.

    Forstfencer Seraphi doesn’t come across as an “important NPC” relegating the need to make a relatively small change such as fixing his eye color.

    So how come they took the time to fix a random High Elf’s eye color to Blue on Alliance but haven’t done the same with plunking Gold Eyes on an Alliance High Elf NPC?

    You said the same thing that occurs to Blood Elves regarding the Sunwell must occur to Alliance High Elves.

    We have been told Golden Eyes occur due to the devotion to Light.

    Therefore if no Alliance High Elves have Golden Eyes that must mean the entire group must not be devoted to the Sunwell/Light as Blood Elves or that they are not affected by the Sunwell in the same way as Blood Elves.
    I am going to firstly note the irony of the pro High Elf community quoting Moorgard as a source when he said something they agreed with. His response to a question that asked him 'where do all the void elf numbers come from' was equally clear given the context of the question, but it is still not accepted despite being both the common sense interpretation, in that introducing a race few in number and with no means of making more makes no sense and that the answer only makes sense in that he was explaining where Void Elf numbers come from.

    Still, now that I have dealt with the hypocrisy on offer here, we can move forward. So Moorgard apparently provided two tweets that previously escaped our notice regarding Blood Elf golden eyes.

    https://twitter.com/Moorgard/status/...241684480?s=19 is where I believe they can be found.

    So, what does he tell us here? Firstly, the potential of golden eyes is present based on devotion to the light. This is genuinely new information, and actually welcome. It means that not all Blood Elves are fated to have golden eyes, and it means that blue eyes for Blood Elves are still a viable option. After all, if all Blood Elves were going to end up with golden eyes, they could just skip the blue eyes entirely. So that is a little fillip to that particularly campaign.
    While this has been theorised by many for a while, including myself given that the NPCs in game with golden eyes are Priests and Paladins, confirmation is good.

    We know that prior to the fall of Quel'thalas, the High Elves worshipped the light. All of them. Warcraft 3 Priests in fact are High Elves. We know of the existence of High Elf Paladins prior to the fall of Silvermoon. The High Elf people had a relationship with the light. In fact, one of the early differentiating characteristics between the Blood Elves and the Alliance High Elves was that the Blood Elves forsook the light due to how they felt it had abandoned them during the fall of Quel'thalas.

    In other words, once the Sunwell was restored, the Blood Elves returned to their faith in the light. Another of the few differences between themselves and Alliance High Elves erased by that day. Now, we know for an absolute fact that every thalassian elf who is not a Void Elf has a connection to the Sunwell. We know that every thalassian elf who is not a Void Elf uses the Sunwell to sate their addiction. (Void Elves almost certainly do not have a connection to the Sunwell due to it's light based nature, but that is not pertinent to the debate right now). Therefore, with the same connection to the Sunwell as the Blood Elves, and the same addiction to magic as the Blood Elves, the question as to why Alliance High Elves do manifest golden eyes is answered.

    They absolutely can, but Alliance High Elves are primarily Hunters and Mages. There is a difference between all Elves worshipping the light and showing devotion. I'm a Roman Catholic but not a particularly devout one. The Hunters and Mages follow the light, but they aren't devout enough to manifest golden eyes. Which isn't surprising given the vast majority of their people still have green eyes.

    This explains why Paladins and Priests manifested the eyes. It explains why your non Paladin and Priest character can have them, as an expression of their personal devotion to the Holy Light. Frostfencer Seraphi may be a Rogue who is part Mage or a Mage who is part rogue, but he is neither Paladin or Priest and he clearly isn't devoted. But if he were to express a greater devotion, there is no reason he would not manifest golden eyes.

    What Moorgard left blank though was the final question, someone asking whether all of them would transition to golden eyes over time or whether a level of zealotry would be required. For our purposes, the question is academic and no longer relevant. Either all Elves will transition, as all share a connection to the Sunwell but the zealous will transition faster, or only the zealous thalassian elves will manifest golden eyes, whether Blood Elves or Alliance High Elves. It is that the opportunity is clearly afforded to all non void thalassian elves regardless of political alignment that matters.
    Last edited by Obelisk Kai; 2019-08-20 at 03:21 PM.

  18. #11638
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    In all counter examples you list, the same truism holds. The group you cite is differentiated on some fundamental level from their parent, forming a distinct evolutionary offshoot that is either the by-product of an outside transformative force, or biological and lore separation that is the by-product of the passage of time.
    Alliance High Elves do not qualify as they are not an offshot, they are political refugees identical in every respect to the core population beyond their political position..
    Yes, they do. Because they do have lore separation from the blood elves that is the "by-product of the passage of time". Being exile changes a culture, because the high elves need to adapt and survive. There is also the fact they did not partake in the fel magic like their cousins did, and had to find other ways to deal with the withdrawal pains caused by the lack of magical energies to "feed" from, so those are two options for lore reasoning for more physical/biological differences to be made.

    The response is predicated on the fact you are attempt to create a smokescreen by suggesting, without any evidence to support your position, with no examples in game or developer commentary outside it, that the Void Elf transformation can be reversed. The reason this position was put forward was to counter a point I had made. However, as there is zero evidence that the transformation cannot be reversed, it is not a point worthy of consideration.
    False. This is not a "smokescreen". The mention of the possibility of reversing the transformation is an actual valid point to counter the claim that the transformation is permanent, whether you like it or not. Because since neither possibilities (permanent/reversible) are stated as fact in the lore, using one possibility in your argumentation means the other possibility becomes just as valid to use in counter-arguments.

    That there is no evidence it cannot be is irrelevant. There is no evidence that the moons of Azeroth are not made of cheese. That does not mean we have to give serious consideration to the idea that they could be. Until such time as the potential to reverse the transformation is brought up, the presumption is that the transformation is permanent.
    No, we don't have to give serious consideration to the idea that the moon could be made of cheese, and the reason for that is because the moons being made of cheese or not does not impact anything in the subjects being discussed. The moment someone puts forth an argument based on the possibility of the moons being made of cheese, we'll discuss that. Until then, leave the moons alone. And as for "such time as the potential to reverse the transformation is brought up", newsflash for you: it has been brought up. Here, in this thread, and by you, if I'm not mistaken, when you talked about "reversible transformations" and "void elves are not blood elves".

    Void Elves are not Blood Elves. They are former Blood Elves transformed by an intervention from the Void. What the transformation did was create an entirely new type of high elf, where before there was just one type there are now two, but they are no longer Blood Elves.
    They are blood elves. Likely they've just chosen a different name since they've been evicted from their homes.

    As for Alleria, once again, her transformation came about due to incredibly unique circumstances involving an incredibly rare entity, a fallen Naaru whose heart she consumed. This is possible because, as a hero character, Alleria is written in a such way that grants her a unique status and a unique narrative. Given the extreme rarity of a fallen Naaru, there is no way every potential Void Elf could harvest the heart of one to provoke a transformation similar to Alleria's.
    You don't know that. This is nothing but headcanon, since we don't know if she could take a 'void form' before consuming the heart of the fallen naaru. The fact that she hasn't, until that point, is not proof she could not. But we do know that she has been under tutelage of Locus-Walker for some time before we even got to Argus. So, again, for all we know, Alleria already could take a 'void form', but never had any reason to do it until the heart of the fallen naaru has shown to be so strong she needed to take such void form to contain it.

    So, the mass transformation triggered by being bombarded by void energies is a simpler way conceived of by Blizzard to create a population of Void Elves as Alleria's method is impossible to repeat on a large scale that is consistent with the lore.
    Again: you don't know that! On top of that, do you really think that new void elves are being converted using the exact same method that Umbric's group was? That they're trapping the new converts into a void trap and hoping they're pulling them out safely? Or that they're going through a safer, more reliable method, likely devised by Locus-Walker, perhaps an abbreviated form of the lessons he taught Alleria, for expedience's sake?

    Skin tone differentiation has been used as the primary aesthetic difference on multiple allied races. Dwarves and Dark Iron. Nightborne and Night Elves. Lightforged Draenei and Draenei. Orcs and Mag'har Orcs. Void Elves fall into the same pattern as the rest of these groups.
    Really? You're going to bring the nightborne and night elves as "skin tone differentiation"? "Purple elves vs purple elves"? And again: in the list of importance for faction differentiation, skin tones are likely in the bottom of the list, considering those are easily put aside by the armor in the game. Silhouette and animations matter much more than simple skin color that can be easily hidden with armor.

    We have been over this. The transformation to her void elf form was clearly depicted in game as the by-product of her eating the heart of a dark Naaru. There was an entire cinematic dedicated to it.
    False. It's your interpretation that the event means that. Another possibility is that Alleria already could take on a "void form" but just haven't, until now, and the heart of the fallen Naaru proved too much for her to contain on her own so she had to take a 'void form' to empower herself to be able to do it, and the cinematic was Blizzard's way of saying "look how awesome she is!"

    Sylvanas in the three sister's comic accuses her sister of hypocrisy over her upset at Sylvanas being undead by accusing her of being 'tranformed-nay-twisted by a fallen Naaru'?. Every time Alleria's transformation is referenced, it is tied back to that consumption of the essence of a dark Naaru.
    So you're claiming that Sylvanas is an expert on void, void elves and void transformations, now? Or perhaps Sylvanas, who was not at Argus, may have been acting on second-hand information (i.e. not necessarily correct) in the comic?

    Please, I fully understand your position. I am very careful in my use of terminology. I don't call that group 'Alliance High Elves' because I enjoy typing the word Alliance so often. While I understand your position, I absolutely reject it and categorizing Alliance High Elves as Alliance High Elves is my way of showing that. Aucald's terminology of High Elf exile is also acceptable, but I've been using Alliance High Elf for quite a while now so it is typed mostly out of habit.
    So is this you confessing that you're doing this just to be confrontational? Calling the Alliance high elves "high elves" is correct, and should be the correct way, since they're actually tagged as "high elves" in the game, and their race's name is already designed as "thalassian elves".

    In the same fashion that the Grimtotem are separate from the rest of the Tauren of Mulgore, or the Defias are separate from the Humans of Stormwind. Divided by politics, nothing else.
    And they're all valid options for allied races. Politics shape culture. High elves have different politics than the blood elves. Likely different cultures due to their exile. And physical differences, while I don't think are necessary, can easily be given just going by the lore we currently have.

    1.) Moorgard's commentary
    2.) In game where the number of Void Elves does not match the small group present at the initial transformation.
    3.) Common sense in that if they couldn't reproduce, the Horde would have wiped them out by now given the number we have killed.

    That is evidence. Admittedly, not irrefutable evidence, but evidence sourced from developers and from the game itself.
    None of those state that some of the void elves "clearly were" high elves.

    Blood Elves ARE High Elves. As you said earlier, names don't matter, and I agree when it is between Blood Elves and Alliance High Elves. A Blood Elf IS a High Elf in every respect but name. So when I say Blood Elves ARE High Elves, I refer to the former meaning, of a traditional style High Elf as seen before the end of Warcraft 3. But Blood Elves redefined what a High Elf is, that is a Blood Elf, when they changed their name as was their right. What the Alliance High Elves mean by their use of the term 'High Elf' is not the same as it was before the fall of Silvermoon. It has now been politicised by the exiles to mean 'not a Blood Elf' and does not mean what it meant in the past. What it exemplifies is a political distinction only.
    You said it yourself: they redefined their high elf culture and name into "blood elf". The "high elf" name now belongs to the ones that chose to still hold it, which are the group tagged "high elf" in the game and lore. When a character in the lore say "high elf" they're not talking about the blood elves. When a character in the lore says "blood elf" they're not talking about the high elves.

    No, the legacy of Quel'thalas belongs to the Blood Elves. A legacy is what is left to your successors. What the High Elves built was the Kingdom of Quel'thalas and everything that went with it. The Blood Elves, as the inheritors of that Kingdom ARE the heirs to the legacy of Quel'thalas. It is why Prince Kael had the right to rename the entire race from High Elf to Blood Elf. Those that rejected the legacy claimed the moniker High Elf, and seek legitimization not based on their own terms but because of their loyalty to the Alliance. A name change alone is pretty meaningless as a point of differentiation, as between Blood Elves and Alliance Elves. When accompanied by something else, such as a failed transformation that leaves the targets in a midway state, the name change gains substance from all other alterations, such as that between Blood/Alliance High Elves and Void Elves.
    What really amuses me about this whole quote of yours is how it debunks your own claim that both groups, blood elves and high elves, have the same culture. However, you're wrong that those that rejected the name 'blood elf' have rejected their legacy. One does not follow the other, otherwise an argument could be said about blood elves "rejecting their heritage" by changing their name.

    Completely false. Alliance High Elves were rejected as an Allied race on the grounds that they were identical to Blood Elves.(1) You cannot claim to have three distinct types of something if two of your three proposals are regarded as identical.(2) There are therefore two types of thalssian elf, traditional style high elves as represented by Blood Elves/Alliance High Elves, and the new void variant.
    (1) Were they, or was it because they did not fit the story being told in BfA, so far? Or because, as Blizzard themselves said: they wanted to something "new and unexpected"? You're stating opinions as facts, here.
    (2) Would the Kul'Tirans, prior to BfA, be also "regarded as identical" as the Stormwind humans?

    They are separate politically. They are not separate culturally.
    They could be. Being exiled from your homeland, forced to deal with a group-wide case of withdrawal pains due to the destruction of the Sunwell does change a culture. At the same time, the blood elves also changed culturally when they embraced draining mana from living beings (something that was apparently seen as abhorrent by their predecessors) and went so far in their hatred against the light to actually kidnap, torture and experiment on a Naaru.

    And I see high elves strolling around the Kingdom of Quel'thalas all the time. The vast majority in fact. And I see Blood Elves strolling around in High Elf lands too. Same people in the same lands.
    For someone who is quick to call "false" when information contradicts their headcanon, you sure love to state falsehoods. There are no high elves in blood elf lands. Those high elves that are caught in blood elf lands are attacked, either killed or captured. And there are no blood elves in high elf lands because, being exiles, high elves have no land of their own anymore.

    That you believe the Grimtotem are a separate race due to their political circumstances underscores either a failure to grasp how race functions in Warcraft, or is something you feel you have to argue as your internal logic for justifying Alliance High Elves as a separate 'race' demands it lest you be accused of inconsistency.
    And I think this quote underscores how much you overly estimate your own opinions regarding what is actually going on. "Playabe races" is not the same thing as "actually different biological race".

    No, Grimtotem Tauren are not a separate race. They are a renegade tribe of Mulgore Tauren and they were not magically transformed into a different races when Baine kicked them out of Mulgore. The sheer illogicity of this suggestion and belief helpfully demonstrates the nonsensical logic at the core of arguing that Alliance High Elves are as distinct a race from Blood Elves as Void Elves are a distinct race from Blood Elves.
    Yes, they're sufficient as a candidate to be an allied race. They're a separate group from the Mulgore Tauren, have different culture, and different politics.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  19. #11639
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    DISCLAIMER: This post turned out very long because analyses usually do, but also to provide a finality to the topic of Moorgard's tweets on Blood Elf Golden Eyes. His answers were very explicit regarding Blood Elves and their propensity for Golden Eyes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    I am going to firstly note the irony of the pro High Elf community quoting Moorgard as a source when he said something they agreed with. His response to a question that asked him 'where do all the void elf numbers come from' was equally clear given the context of the question, but it is still not accepted despite being both the common sense interpretation, in that introducing a race few in number and with no means of making more makes no sense and that the answer only makes sense in that he was explaining where Void Elf numbers come from.
    You should probably learn the differences between an implicit answer and an explicit answer. His responses on the Golden Eyes topic is not answered vaguely whereas his "where do extra void elves come from" was, hence as I've stated so many times before -> No media news outlet even bothered to post that information because of how non-committal of an answer it is. It is so non-committal that when people talk about Void Elves (rarely if they ever do because most people don't care above surface looks) that this isn't even brought up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Still, now that I have dealt with the hypocrisy on offer here, we can move forward. So Moorgard apparently provided two tweets that previously escaped our notice regarding Blood Elf golden eyes.

    https://twitter.com/Moorgard/status/...241684480?s=19 is where I believe they can be found.

    So, what does he tell us here? Firstly, the potential of golden eyes is present based on devotion to the light. This is genuinely new information, and actually welcome. It means that not all Blood Elves are fated to have golden eyes, and it means that blue eyes for Blood Elves are still a viable option. After all, if all Blood Elves were going to end up with golden eyes, they could just skip the blue eyes entirely. So that is a little fillip to that particularly campaign.
    While this has been theorised by many for a while, including myself given that the NPCs in game with golden eyes are Priests and Paladins, confirmation is good.
    Other than 2-3 non-descript unexplained Blood Elves with Blue Eyes (most likely due to bugs when High Elves and Blood Elves shared file names which they do not anymore since BFA), we see that Blood Elves have "skipped blue eyes" entirely. There are not important/significant/essential Blood Elves that carry this phenotype with them. When it came time to "update their eyes" only Golden was given, and we have the explanation why -> To show the individual's degree in devotion to the Light. Be my guest at that campaign.

    We also are told that "For players, we intentionally didn't restrict which classes can have golden eyes. Whatever story you want to make for your character's eye color, more power to you."

    Indicating it is merely gameplay reasons and not lore-based one to allow any player character Blood Elf to have Golden Eyes. Lore-wise though, they explain how they will handle them, "For NPCs, we will be selective. Priests & paladins are more likely to have them, but others can if it makes sense."

    Meaning it is not a process that happens willy-nilly, and what is implied but not explicitly stated is that it would be an exceptionally devoted Blood Elf who is not a Priest or Paladin to manifest Golden Eyes.

    Also let us note that we have yet to see any High Elf with these Golden Eyes. All High Elves in BFA have Blue Eyes despite this change coming in. We also know that internally within the games files Blizzard separated the High Elves from the Blood Elves. This leads to the most likely conclusion that they did so in order to prevent High Elves from spawning with Golden Eyes just as the few buggy aforementioned pre-BFA file separation Blood Elves have Blue Eyes. One can conclude that with that file separation means it is unlikely to ever see High Elves with Golden Eyes spawned. Otherwise what would be the point to separate those file names, the purpose of which is to more easily spawn an appropriate Thalassian Elf, either High Elf or Blood Elf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    We know that prior to the fall of Quel'thalas, the High Elves worshipped the light...Therefore, with the same connection to the Sunwell as the Blood Elves, and the same addiction to magic as the Blood Elves, the question as to why Alliance High Elves do manifest golden eyes is answered.
    I shortened this down because it's the same regurgitation of facts that everyone involved in this conversation already knows and doesn't need rehashed as well as includes more conjecture from you. Your opinions here are just that, it is not demonstrable proof which is what I was initially asking for: proof.

    We have not seen any High Elf with Golden Eyes since that change was made in BFA content. We also know that they separated internally the file names spawning High Elves from the Blood Elves right before/as the change was implemented.

    Therefore, all your conjecture is actually meaningless because for all your words you are not bringing proof yet writing as if proof already exists. This is a major issue with a lot of your posts honestly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    They absolutely can, but Alliance High Elves are primarily Hunters and Mages. There is a difference between all Elves worshipping the light and showing devotion. I'm a Roman Catholic but not a particularly devout one. The Hunters and Mages follow the light, but they aren't devout enough to manifest golden eyes. Which isn't surprising given the vast majority of their people still have green eyes.
    You start out talking about Alliance High Elves but then your last sentence somehow switched to speaking about Blood Elves. I don't understand where you make the transition. But the majority of Blood Elves having Green Eyes doesn't have anything to do with Alliance High Elves maintaining their Blue Eyes. This again is not proof, "the Hunters and Mages follow the Light" are you speaking about Alliance High Elves or Blood Elves? Because aside from not being "devout enough to manifest golden eyes" the Alliance High Elves since their inception have never manifested the Fel Green Eyes that all Blood Elves had. And in BFA the High Elves continue to manifest the color they always - Blue Eyes.

    You have two things you must show if you want others to believe as you do:
    1) That an NPC Blood Elf non-Priest/non-Paladin manifests Golden Eyes due to their devotion (which is as Moorgard states, possible, but yet to be shown)
    2) That a High Elf NPC manifests Golden Eyes (a topic which has never been brought up nor even asked if possible to any developer on the matter, let alone Moorgard)

    Otherwise what you're doing is having a conclusion and then trying to find (or at least say since you have no real proof) data to fit that conclusion. Which is faulty, typically the data must form the conclusion. The only times when it's how you're doing it is if there's obvious bias, which there is, but at least I have not been arguing without the data to back it up.

    If the data does exist as in my two points, then I wouldn't be putting forth the arguments I do now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    This explains why Paladins and Priests manifested the eyes.
    Yup, their devotion to the Light.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    It explains why your non Paladin and Priest character can have them, as an expression of their personal devotion to the Holy Light.
    Incorrect, Moorgard explicitly says regarding Golden Eyes for players, "For players, we intentionally didn't restrict which classes can have golden eyes. Whatever story you want to make for your character's eye color, more power to you."

    I could say my Blood Elf Mage has Golden Eyes because he took a swim in the Sunwell when no one was looking and I would be entirely correct as per Moorgard. You are not understanding his statement. He's saying first of all that they allowed it to all players' classes because they didn't want a restriction.

    That is a gameplay reason, not a lore one.

    Then he states "whatever story you want to make about your character's eyes, more power to you" (paraphrasing) which means you can come up with any reason you want for your character but this is not the logic that is followed Blizzard.

    Therefore in my example, just because I state for my character they got their Golden Eyes from swimming in the Sunwell, I do not have authority to say "this is how every non-paladin & non-priest gained their Golden Eyes" as if that is the actual lore. It is simply my own headcanon.

    If you want to play the "look at the context of the question he asked" as you do with Void Elf numbers then you should follow suit. The first reply from Moorgard on explaining it is the degree of devotion to the Light is a question centered on "Lore wise would the eyes of the blood elves have progressively changed over the last few years or would they have changed shortly after the sunwell was purified?"

    Therefore Moorgard's answer is based on lore here. The 2nd reply of Moorgard is in context of a person asking, "would it be possible for a mage or a ranger to get golden eyes, even if they are not zealots since the Sunwell is partially made of Light?"

    Moorgard's answer now is based on the player character aka gameplay. This is why he says "for players we didn't restrict which classes can have them" (paraphrasing) and also why he adds "Whatever story you want to make for your character's eye color, more power to you." To which he follows up with how they're going to handle it for NPCs (aka Lore wise). Moorgard is explaining that they're not going to tell a player "No, your Blood Elf has golden eyes because they're so devoted to the Light" he is telling the player "you can come up with any reason you want for your character to explain their Golden Eyes".

    As it's obvious the person asking the question wants their character Blood Elf to have Golden Eyes but the reason to not be being devoted to the Sunwell like a "zealot".

    Again, stop taking decisions done for gameplay reasons as if they are lore reasons. We know lore-wise it is Paladin and Priest Blood Elves devoted to the Light that makes them manifest Golden Eyes, and the potential is there for non-paladin & non-priest Blood Elves. This has no bearing on Alliance High Elves who have not been shown to be in the same predicament nor even explored upon by developers of whether its possible or not.

    This also clearly shows us how they separate what is done for gameplay and what is done for lore. You seem to be having trouble with that. "My non-Paladin/non-Priest Blood Elf has Golden Eyes because they ate Sunwell-infused cake at a birthday party" works for my character BUT that does not mean the actual lore follows my character's Golden Eye basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Frostfencer Seraphi may be a Rogue who is part Mage or a Mage who is part rogue, but he is neither Paladin or Priest and he clearly isn't devoted.
    This is honestly a strange statement, no Rogue wields a sword and a shield in WoW. I will say people did think he was some sort of Frost Paladin before and that Blizzard did say the Island expedition classes are not necessarily straight transferable playable classes, but a Rogue? You play Horde so you must've fought him on Islands at some point, does he use abilities that some reason made you think Rogue? Know that I have a Horde character so this question is more rhetorical as I've experienced fighting Seraphi myself.

    Anyways, https://wow.gamepedia.com/Island_Expedition lists him as a Cryomancer/Frost Mage. Apparently the Island teams are mirrors, therefore Auric's Angels are the Cryomancers to the Blazing Sunhawks Pyromancers.

    Note here though that you are not helping your argument that "what happens to Blood Elves, happens to High Elves as well". As I said, most saw him as a Frost Paladin and indeed the skills he uses in battle such as Avenger's shield would denote a hint of this, still he has Blue Eyes. I am not saying he is a Paladin though, because as stated by Blizzard the NPC Teams classes aren't all a perfect fit into the playable ones we have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    What Moorgard left blank though was the final question, someone asking whether all of them would transition to golden eyes over time or whether a level of zealotry would be required. For our purposes, the question is academic and no longer relevant. Either all Elves will transition, as all share a connection to the Sunwell but the zealous will transition faster, or only the zealous thalassian elves will manifest golden eyes, whether Blood Elves or Alliance High Elves. It is that the opportunity is clearly afforded to all non void thalassian elves regardless of political alignment that matters.
    Both questions to which he responded to encompass all that is required. Even what you say a "final question" asked.

    The first question about did they change gradually or did it happen suddenly. Moorgard answers "It's not that all blood elf eyes have changed from green to gold. It's that the potential for golden eyes is present." so whoever asked "whether all of them would transition to golden eyes over time" is answered by this first response from Moorgard. The "potential for Golden Eyes is present". "Not that all Blood Elf eyes have changed from Green to Gold." That's very explicit and thus that unanswered question is redundant.

    The 2nd question was already answered by both part 1 and part 2 of Moorgard's answer. To answer "whether a level of zealotry would be required" Moorgard already states in part 1, an answer given about a "Lore wise" question, that it is based on individual's degree of devotion to the Light. In part 2 he clarifies to someone asking if they can have a mage or ranger with Golden Eyes despite not being a zealot for the Sunwell, in which Moorgard answers how "for players and their characters" (paraphrasing) they didn't want to restrict anything. Then also includes how they will deal with NPCs, Priests and Paladins being most likely to have them, but a potential for others "if it makes sense".

    The question you're talking about, can be found here: https://twitter.com/Moorgard/status/1017104558462386176 asked by Leyloriel. It was asked 2 days before Moorgard gave his part 2 answer to NevisMenegatti who appears to be asking a follow-up to Leyloriel's question.

    Therefore it appears Moorgard did in fact answer that question as I evidenced that he gives very explicit answers here and thus separately answering Leyloriel's tweet is unnecessary, he answers it when he responds to Nevis who asked his question in conjunction Leyloriel.

    But whether he answered that tweet separately or not doesn't even matter. We have very explicit answers about the Golden Eyes for Blood Elves, what it means lore-wise, how it will be handled with NPCs, how "if it makes sense" for a non-Paladin/non-Priest character they will add it, and how they did not impose such restrictions on player's character classes (meaning whatever reasoning you come up with for your character is not the actual lore reason, unless you choose to follow the lore reasoning). Moorgard wasn't being vague at all here with regards to the Golden Eyes topic.

    He also never mentions High Elves at all, only Blood Elves. We yet do not see a High Elf NPC with Golden Eyes, therefore your original claim that "if they [Blood Elves] are light corrupted, so are the Alliance High Elves." remains without proof.

    And at the very end of the day, you know you can always try asking Moorgard/Ion through tweets/twitter DMs about these claims you make and whether they are true or not, right?

    You did it for Jeremy Feasel and also for Ghostcrawler, it would be regular for you to do so with those claims you make to have finality on things such as "what happens to Blood Elves with Golden Eyes means it affects the High Elves too since they're the same people right, but we haven't been shown that - how come?" or to even simply ask "Will Blood Elves ever get their Blue Eyes back?"

    Yet you don't which is surprising to me. What makes you wanna ask Jeremy Feasel when it was proven High Elves are a potential down the line or Ghostcrawler about High Elves yet not Moorgard or Ion?
    Last edited by FlubberPuddy; 2019-08-20 at 04:42 PM.

  20. #11640
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    In the same fashion that the Grimtotem are separate from the rest of the Tauren of Mulgore, or the Defias are separate from the Humans of Stormwind. Divided by politics, nothing else.
    Grimtotem live in Mulgore, and are neutral, if not just hostile. While on the other hand Defias are mostly just hostile to everyone.

    However, saying Defias can't be playable comes from a very big lack of imagination or/and a necessity to prove a point that pretty much isn't there.

    I have approached this some pages ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    Defias can be made playable, even as horde.

    Really, stating that it can't be done comes as a plain lack of imagination and/or a very shortsighted outcome originated from closing your mind due to a brute argument developing.

    Thin human model, X classes, racials, Defias lore/aesthetic, etc, etc, etc...
    There you have it, Defias humans. Not so much different from Kul'tiran humans...

    For the other hand, there are just so much that can be done with High elves to have a different Aesthetic without transforming them, such as I suggested some pages ago:

    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    The High elf model can be modified to show how they looked when not affected by the aftermath of the scourge invasion.

    Is simple as that. We all know how Blood elves look. Now, how did High elves look back then? Current models don't make justice by the simple fact they were designed to be playable for Blood elves and then just slightly modified for High elf NPCs.

    It's super simple, and more than a lore friendly way to have a distinct looking High elf playable race in opposition to the Blood elves. Show what a High elf that didn't went through what the Blood elves did looks like.
    How did the High elves looked like before the scourge invasion? Not so tan? Different body builds? A different posture? Maybe we were just told about blue eyes but they also had purple and even white ones? Hair colors that Blood elves can't manifest anymore? They maybe now wear tatoos as some sort of tribalism to differentiate from Blood elves?

    Retroactive changes are more than a lore friendly possibility, that when mixed with more modern changes they could have went with we can end up with pretty much a High elf that is still a High elf that looks even more different when compared to a Blood elf.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Frankly, leaving evidence aside, I figure it's just a matter of time till their ability to convert other elves is confirmed beyond all doubt one way or another. The idea that the only Void Elves are the tiny group present at the initial transformation is preposterous. If Blizzard intends for them to have a future in game, they have to be able to make more just to keep their story going.
    I also hope so, since Void elves are so bare bones it's just pathetic and a shame for the lovers of the warcraft universe.

    However, this does not make true that they already have a way to do so, or that it coming out would change a lot about them. Given the response Moorgard gave, they are very cautious about things like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    And I see high elves strolling around the Kingdom of Quel'thalas all the time. The vast majority in fact. And I see Blood Elves strolling around in High Elf lands too. Same people in the same lands.
    You should not whine and complain to be called intentionally obtuse after things like this over and over and over.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That you believe the Grimtotem are a separate race due to their political circumstances underscores either a failure to grasp how race functions in Warcraft, or is something you feel you have to argue as your internal logic for justifying Alliance High Elves as a separate 'race' demands it lest you be accused of inconsistency.

    No, Grimtotem Tauren are not a separate race. They are a renegade tribe of Mulgore Tauren and they were not magically transformed into a different races when Baine kicked them out of Mulgore. The sheer illogicity of this suggestion and belief helpfully demonstrates the nonsensical logic at the core of arguing that Alliance High Elves are as distinct a race from Blood Elves as Void Elves are a distinct race from Blood Elves.
    https://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/...od-elf-shaman/

    'your character comes from a specific "faction" within that race.

    Playable Humans are always from the nation of Stormwind. Playable Blood Elves are always from Silvermoon. While it's possible for there to be "break aways" in the story and for members of those races to join "opposing factions" and learn new skills, that's not something that's on offer to player characters.

    If those classes were ever added to those races, I would expect specific backstory to be created for how those races adopted those techniques and rituals, such as with gnome hunters "creating" and taming mechanical beasts.'

    Also Grimtotem Tauren can also become playable, it would come with development on them to do so, but it's more than a plausible possibility. Saying they can't by just saying that they look exactly like playable Mulgore Tauren is not correct and also does not prove any point.

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