Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Heartbreaker]

It's science, and it's not my fault you haven't learned how variation works. Try taking a class or two, you might learn something.

More nonsense. People in different regions have evolved differently, that is why they look different and can be distinguished from other races. What they look like, whether it's height, skin color or facial features like eye shape etc. is all in their DNA. It is biological. It couldn't be any other way. You can't make people look the same. "Social construct" is just another way of saying "it's only in our heads". No.

[Nebron]

It's science, and it's not my fault you haven't learned how variation works. Try taking a class or two, you might learn something.

I wouldn't be rude, if you were not. But please, don't make fun of yourself. What you said is actually greatly embarassing.

[Aucald]

This is, of course, incorrect, insofar as your conclusions are that the High Elven exiles would be a different race to the Blood Elves in gameplay terms based solely on their allegiance to that Alliance. The reason that this is incorrect, is that it relies upon a factor explicitly ruled out as being a differentiator, political allegiance.
Even the Pandaren, with whom a flawed equivalence is drawn with the High Elves, are treated as the same race yet whose members make a different choice at a particularly critical moment in their storyline.

The High Elven exiles are not a distinct race. They are a political faction of an existing playable race. Furthermore, real world parallels can be drawn with this situation (and indeed other fantastical situations within WoW) and attempting to say parallels cannot be drawn seems to be arbitrary, particularly given divisions in fiction and in real life are underpinned by similar factors (unsurprising as the fiction would have been informed by real world events).
I would propose that the real world situation that most reflects that of the Thalassian Elves is the nation of Cuba, who would be analogous to the Blood Elves, and the exile community who are political opposed to the current status of their homeland. Both groups are fully Cuban of course.

Blood Elves and High Elves are the same race. High Elves are therefore playable. The minor variation in lore between a Blood Elf and a High Elf exile does not invalidate that.

Draw your arbitrary lines wherever you wish - I'm not speaking to the debate as to whether or not the High Elven exiles are included with the Blood Elves or not included, I'm just delineating the difference between "race" as a real-world social construct, "race" as a gameplay construct in WoW, and the idea of species in general. As long as people understand the terms and use them properly a debate can actually be had. The rest of it is just people talking past one another about different ideas using terms that aren't clear or agreed upon.

[Ielenia]

They are the SAME RACE, KAEL'THAS CHANGED THEIR NAME!

So are Kul'Tiras humans and Stormwind humans.

Plus there are lore basis for build/posture differences between high elves and blood elves, chief among those are the myriad of possible ways the high elves could have done to dealt with the effects of magic withdrawal, as they refused to follow Kael'Thas teachings, while the blood elves embraced said teachings, draining mana from living beings, and the fact they were not affected by fel magic like the citizens of Silvermoon.

[FossilFree]

I wouldn't be rude, if you were not. But please, don't make fun of yourself. What you said is actually greatly embarassing.

You should be embarrassed by your ignorance of how to spell the word embarrassing.

[Musta]

Ill say my last bit on the HE topic. A plot hole. Cuz i wanna know. WHen the split occurs and some HEs go to the alliance, why did they not suffer from magic addiction? they were way too far from the sunwell and after that it got blow up, but none of the alliance's HEs were affected. Why? Wheres the explanation?

[Obelisk Kai]

Draw your arbitrary lines wherever you wish - I'm not speaking to the debate as to whether or not the High Elven exiles are included with the Blood Elves or not included, I'm just delineating the difference between "race" as a real-world social construct, "race" as a gameplay construct in WoW, and the idea of species in general. As long as people understand the terms and use them properly a debate can actually be had. The rest of it is just people talking past one another about different ideas using terms that aren't clear or agreed upon.

My lines are not arbitrary. Stating they are arbitrary implies I settled upon them myself. The lines were defined by Blizzard developers i.e. the people who have the right to define them. Within WoW, race in gameplay terms means groups that are biologically identical of whom one example is enough to count that particular race as playable. In order for another version of that race to be playable it has to be precisely that, another version, a genuine variant.

High Elf exiles are not a separate race. They are not separate if we use real world parallels. They are not separate if we use lore based definitions. They are not separate if we use gameplay definitions. In fact, the entire discussion of race in this topic is entirely pointless, as we are not discussing separate races but differing factions of the same race. The reason WHY race has been drawn into this topic is that some, in pursuit of their goal, wish to pretend that the High Elf exiles ARE a separate race. As they are not, it is relatively easy to disprove this stance, but it is a persistent article of faith for some.

[Aldo Hawk]

Ill say my last bit on the HE topic. A plot hole. Cuz i wanna know. WHen the split occurs and some HEs go to the alliance, why did they not suffer from magic addiction? they were way too far from the sunwell and after that it got blow up, but none of the alliance's HEs were affected. Why? Wheres the explanation?

They did, where did you got this information? They did as the rest of their people...

There is no explanation possible since the Sunwell has unlimited range, and there is no need for an explanation since what you said was never the case.

I don't know if you have genuine interest on the topic. Feels like you just don't like it so you treat it the harshest way you can come up with and try to call it a day.

- - - Updated - - -

My lines are not arbitrary.

They are, you invented them thinking that what's in the selection screen is some kind of pattern that conveniently fits with your bias.

Except there are Kul'tiran humans. Humans, with a different model, but humans. And uncorrupted orcs. And lightbound Draenei. And nature blessed Tauren. And void infused Blood elves...

Blizzard never said: 'Within WoW, race in gameplay terms means groups that are biologically identical of whom one example is enough to count that particular race as playable. In order for another version of that race to be playable it has to be precisely that, another version, a genuine variant.'

High elves have differences from Blood elves. Fel radiation modified the Blood elves and both of them had different lives involving different magics and different ways of dealing with the addiction. That changes the elves a lot in warcraft, and this was not so drastic, but enough to show differences that can be perfectly further explored in some sort of retroactive revisit of how the High elves look without fel taint in game and adding visual characteristics that denote belonging to a group of exiles that found their way once again long ago into the Alliance.

Again, they are not a carbon copy, Pandaren are.

The desire for it to stay underdeveloped is unjustifiable. Before TbC, they had a remodel of Night elves. Thalassians were crafted to be playable on the Horde, whilst the Alliance population being not playable and not showing much until later expansions, simply getting minor features according to lore. Who said that it cannot be developed and that it has to be maintained in the current status of NPCs?

[Ielenia]

Ill say my last bit on the HE topic. A plot hole. Cuz i wanna know. WHen the split occurs and some HEs go to the alliance, why did they not suffer from magic addiction? they were way too far from the sunwell and after that it got blow up, but none of the alliance's HEs were affected. Why? Wheres the explanation?

This question, this "plot hole" of yours, demonstrates how little you know about the high elves. No one is saying that they did not suffer from magic addiction. Worse: the high elves suffered more from the symptoms of withdrawal because they refused to follow Kael'Thas orders to drain mana from living beings to sate their addiction.

[Kyphael]

They are, you invented them thinking that what's in the selection screen is some kind of pattern that conveniently fits with your bias.

Except there are Kul'tiran humans. Humans, with a different model, but humans. And uncorrupted orcs. And lightbound Draenei. And nature blessed Tauren. And void infused Blood elves...

Blizzard never said: 'Within WoW, race in gameplay terms means groups that are biologically identical of whom one example is enough to count that particular race as playable. In order for another version of that race to be playable it has to be precisely that, another version, a genuine variant.'

High elves have differences from Blood elves. Fel radiation modified the Blood elves and both of them had different lives involving different magics and different ways of dealing with the addiction. That changes the elves a lot in warcraft, and this was not so drastic, but enough to show differences that can be perfectly further explored in some sort of retroactive revisit of how the High elves look without fel taint in game and adding visual characteristics that denote belonging to a group of exiles that found their way once again long ago into the Alliance.

Again, they are not a carbon copy, Pandaren are.

The desire for it to stay underdeveloped is unjustifiable. Before TbC, they had a remodel of Night elves. Thalassians were crafted to be playable on the Horde, whilst the Alliance population being not playable and not showing much until later expansions, simply getting minor features according to lore. Who said that it cannot be developed and that it has to be maintained in the current status of NPCs?

He doesn't care that Blizzard's stance, and vicariously his own, is illogical or contradictory. Just by virtue of being in agreement with Blizzard's side of the argument, he's right and has a point. "Pandaren was a mistake Blizzard admitted to making that it doesn't want to repeat again. They are committed in maintaining factions distinct so adding High Elves would further blur that line." Watch. lol

[Aucald]

My lines are not arbitrary. Stating they are arbitrary implies I settled upon them myself. The lines were defined by Blizzard developers i.e. the people who have the right to define them. Within WoW, race in gameplay terms means groups that are biologically identical of whom one example is enough to count that particular race as playable. In order for another version of that race to be playable it has to be precisely that, another version, a genuine variant.

High Elf exiles are not a separate race. They are not separate if we use real world parallels. They are not separate if we use lore based definitions. They are not separate if we use gameplay definitions. In fact, the entire discussion of race in this topic is entirely pointless, as we are not discussing separate races but differing factions of the same race. The reason WHY race has been drawn into this topic is that some, in pursuit of their goal, wish to pretend that the High Elf exiles ARE a separate race. As they are not, it is relatively easy to disprove this stance, but it is a persistent article of faith for some.

You misunderstand - in this particular instance I am not making a claim one way or the other. I am talking about the specific terms addressed above, not the rolling debate that has been going on for some time. In gameplay terms, "race" is completely arbitrary - it can be a species boundary, it can be an ethnic boundary, it can an entirely abstract boundary, etc. etc. What truly separates the "races" in WoW are game mechanics like racial abilities, starting locations, and class limitations (and perhaps playability and non-playability). A "variant," genuine or not, is just as arbitrary. But as long as we know what we're talking about, we can talk about it instead of talking past one another using different versions of the terms.

[Fetus Rex]

Why do people want High Elves? They are beta traitors who abandoned their Prince. Now they are no more than a pleb. Bunch of Night Elves lite with a touch of arcane.

[Kyphael]

Why do people want High Elves? They are beta traitors who abandoned their Prince. Now they are no more than a pleb. Bunch of Night Elves lite with a touch of arcane.

Most people don't care about lore, they just want High Elves because they were playable in the Alliance in Warcraft III.

[Fetus Rex]

Most people don't care about lore, they just want High Elves because they were playable in the Alliance in Warcraft III.

The only way to introduce them is to give them some kind of unique theme or twist like an allegiance with blue dragonflight. But then some would scream again that it's likr Void Elves. HE unfortunately have nothing going for themselves right now.

[Kyphael]

The only way to introduce them is to give them some kind of unique theme or twist like an allegiance with blue dragonflight. But then some would scream again that it's likr Void Elves. HE unfortunately have nothing going for themselves right now.

To be honest, after the Void Elf debacle, the only way to even play a High Elf anymore would be to give Void Elves some tattoos customization like Alleria's with fair skin/blonde hair and call it a day.

Just dug this up. Why couldn't High Elves have a model that resembles Nozdormu's elven form? Looks distinct enough from all other 4 elf variants. Females could resemble Alleria.

[Musta]

They did, where did you got this information? They did as the rest of their people...

There is no explanation possible since the Sunwell has unlimited range, and there is no need for an explanation since what you said was never the case.

I don't know if you have genuine interest on the topic. Feels like you just don't like it so you treat it the harshest way you can come up with and try to call it a day.

- - - Updated - - -


They are, you invented them thinking that what's in the selection screen is some kind of pattern that conveniently fits with your bias.

Except there are Kul'tiran humans. Humans, with a different model, but humans. And uncorrupted orcs. And lightbound Draenei. And nature blessed Tauren. And void infused Blood elves...

Blizzard never said: 'Within WoW, race in gameplay terms means groups that are biologically identical of whom one example is enough to count that particular race as playable. In order for another version of that race to be playable it has to be precisely that, another version, a genuine variant.'

High elves have differences from Blood elves. Fel radiation modified the Blood elves and both of them had different lives involving different magics and different ways of dealing with the addiction. That changes the elves a lot in warcraft, and this was not so drastic, but enough to show differences that can be perfectly further explored in some sort of retroactive revisit of how the High elves look without fel taint in game and adding visual characteristics that denote belonging to a group of exiles that found their way once again long ago into the Alliance.

Again, they are not a carbon copy, Pandaren are.

The desire for it to stay underdeveloped is unjustifiable. Before TbC, they had a remodel of Night elves. Thalassians were crafted to be playable on the Horde, whilst the Alliance population being not playable and not showing much until later expansions, simply getting minor features according to lore. Who said that it cannot be developed and that it has to be maintained in the current status of NPCs?

Where it says they did?

- - - Updated - - -

This question, this "plot hole" of yours, demonstrates how little you know about the high elves. No one is saying that they did not suffer from magic addiction. Worse: the high elves suffered more from the symptoms of withdrawal because they refused to follow Kael'Thas orders to drain mana from living beings to sate their addiction.

Again, wheres this information, i wanna read it.

- - - Updated - - -

Ill go dig the lore on HE, it seens that I missed some critical points in history.

- - - Updated - - -

ANother thing, i dont want to shit on HE lore, quite the opposite, the informations you guys provide are in direct conflict to what i know, and as a lore freak, i need to fix this in my head.

[Aldo Hawk]

He doesn't care that Blizzard's stance, and vicariously his own, is illogical or contradictory. Just by virtue of being in agreement with Blizzard's side of the argument, he's right and has a point. "Pandaren was a mistake Blizzard admitted to making that it doesn't want to repeat again. They are committed in maintaining factions distinct so adding High Elves would further blur that line." Watch. lol

You have missed the whole point of my post, but whatever, your misunderstanding is not my problem.

Just for clarification. One tweet from one developer saying he is not a fan doesn't mean something being a mistake said by 'Blizzard'.

But the discussion about whether Pandaren were a mistake or not, is irrelevant. High elves are more distinct to Blood elves than Horde Pandaren are to Alliance Pandaren. And these differences can more than perfectly be developed on.

On the other hand, 'Blizzard' never said something along the lines of: 'Within WoW, race in gameplay terms means groups that are biologically identical of whom one example is enough to count that particular race as playable. In order for another version of that race to be playable it has to be precisely that, another version, a genuine variant.'

That is an invention from a fan that thinks he can get behind the developers' minds just by looking at what is implemented in the selection screen. AKA An invent.

- - - Updated - - -

Most people don't care about lore, they just want High Elves because they were playable in the Alliance in Warcraft III.

Because they are part of the Alliance.

Saying that it is just because they were on Warcraft III just misses the point.

I never played Warcraft III and I want them to become playable because they -CURRENTLY- and since wow came out day one, they were there in the Alliance.

[Nebron]

You should be embarrassed by your ignorance of how to spell the word embarrassing.

So your reply is an objection against my misspelling as a result of either a simple missclick or me being not a native speaker? You offer nothing substantive?

Saying that the "race" is simply a social construct might be your personal worldview - it's okay. But race obviously is not a social construct. You can go as deep as you wish and conclude that LANGUAGE is the thing that may be called a social construct.

From a scientific point of view term "race" has been coined to distinguish particular groups of organisms that have a common origin and retain the ability to reproduce with other such groups, by their original genetical traits. If race is a social construct, then you should apply it to species too.
Species on the other hand is a term that represent groups of organisms that can't reproduce with each other (with some special exceptions).

Just because you cannot understand this concept, it doesn't necessarily mean it's unscientific. By the way, it's called an argument from personal incredulity. As I said, you can argue whether the concept of "race" applied to humans is valid within the language itself, but it's absolutely acceptable from the scientific perspective. I am not sure if we talk about the same "science", but from what I know science is entirely disconnected from emotions. The word "race" has simply been coined as a taxonomic term. Just because people use the phrase "black" to offend African Americans by connecting it with slavery, it doesn't make race a social construct. You mess the language with science.

Edit: it's worth mentioning that many scienticists have shifted away from using the word "race" and began to use substitutes like "ethnicity" as a result of civil rights movements with no reason, especially that these words have a different meaning. And this is what happens to science when politics are involved.

[Musta]

https://wow.gamepedia.com/High_elf

[Kyphael]

You have missed the whole point of my post, but whatever, your misunderstanding is not my problem.

Just for clarification. One tweet from one developer saying he is not a fan doesn't mean something being a mistake said by 'Blizzard'.

But the discussion about whether Pandaren were a mistake or not, is irrelevant. High elves are more distinct to Blood elves than Horde Pandaren are to Alliance Pandaren. And these differences can more than perfectly be developed on.

On the other hand, 'Blizzard' never said something along the lines of: 'Within WoW, race in gameplay terms means groups that are biologically identical of whom one example is enough to count that particular race as playable. In order for another version of that race to be playable it has to be precisely that, another version, a genuine variant.'

That is an invention from a fan that thinks he can get behind the developers' minds just by looking at what is implemented in the selection screen. AKA An invent.

- - - Updated - - -


Because they are part of the Alliance.

Saying that it is just because they were on Warcraft III just misses the point.

I never played Warcraft III and I want them to become playable because they -CURRENTLY- and since wow came out day one, they were there in the Alliance.

I completely understand your argument. I think you misunderstood my response. @Obelisk Kai's entire stance is that High Elves are Blood Elves, even if you present what he feels are debatable facts because in the end, he has the "Blizzard has determined Blood Elves are High Elves. Ion Hazzikostas has deemed it so as Game Director, which means they will not be implemented and as GM, he has final power and say on whether or not they qualify as a playable allied race." To Ion they do not. @Obelisk Kai advocates that. That's the wall you run into arguing with him. But by all means, this is entertaining.