Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

snip.

But there isn't any real discussion to be had.

The premise of the thread is 'how can we change High Elves enough to justify including them as an Allied race?'.

Yet what do we find? Cosmetic options only, unique hair styles and face paint. The thalassian model isn't altered at all, and the only concession made was that Traycor recently came up with some tan skin options and there is no reason those options couldn't be made available to any Blood Elf hanging out in Stranglethorn Vale.

The truth is, what Traycor claims he is aiming for, Blizzard has already done. The Void Elves are a High Elf changed enough to justify adding them as an Allied race. The Void Elf is a compromise. Stating that a Void Elf is a compromise, which it is, angers pro High Elfers because they aren't happy with the compromise. I'm not happy with it either of course but I accept it, and anyone who thinks the point of a compromise is to make everyone happy hasn't studied history or politics. It's to arrive at a solution that doesn't award one side complete victory.

Hence the Alliance gets the model, but one with a completely different theme. Void Elves are the end of the debate.

They would not have created Void Elves had they any intention of giving the Alliance a more traditional version of High Elves

[Deleted]

Yet what do we find? Cosmetic options only, unique hair styles and face paint. The thalassian model isn't altered at all, and the only concession made was that Traycor recently came up with some tan skin options and there is no reason those options couldn't be made available to any Blood Elf hanging out in Stranglethorn Vale.

(the points I'm about to make have probably already been made multiple times in this thread)

To be fair, this is all fanmade, so isn't it a bit unfair to expect a full-blown rework of the official model?

HM Tauren and LF Draenei have about as much effort put into them, though comparing High Elves to Nightborne would be more appropriate as "faction swapping" is fundamentally involved, I suppose. At a glance, Nightborne are not that different from Night Elves, so there's no reason the same can't be the case for High Elves. A hypothetical official release would of course feature a different (entirely new?) model, with unique customization options, idle animations, if not an entirely new animation set (I've been thinking Humans', but with unique attacks)

But yeah, the introduction of Void Elves does kind of muddy the waters, and I imagine Blizzard was, in fact, hoping they'd be accepted as a suitable compromise.

[Ithekro]

The idea of changing the High Elves cosmetically is an attempt to appease the Horde players really so that the High Elves will be easy to spot on the Battlegrounds in comparison to the Blood Elves. Half Elves are also this sort of compromise, where the model is still normal human/elf looking, but not exactly Blood Elf looking

Void Elves are a compromise, but an unwelcome one, since they look unnatural for those that wanted High Elves since Vanilla. You know Vanilla, when there were plenty of High Elves around and all were Alliance allied. There might have been one or two Blood Elves around, but none of them were part of the Horde. Only in TBC did the Blood Elves join the Horde, and yet there were still High Elves in the Alliance, and still are in the Alliance to the end of Legion.

That is the major issue. There are still High Elves in the Alliance and have been the WHOLE TIME. They even presented the Alliance with more High Elves in TBC and Wrath. This isn't a new thing or something that steals from the Horde as they have always been there and people have always wanted to play them. Thus people will continue wanting to play them until they are allowed to do so, or you make all the High elves extinct (either by them all converting to Void Elves, or all rejoining the Blood Elves, or both, leaving no High Elves anyplace in game). That is what it will take to end this sort of thread.

The argument about giving the Alliance the Horde's "most played race" is hogwash and worthless because its not about "stealing" from the Horde, its about getting High Elves in the Alliance as was seen since before the Horde ever had Blood Elves. No one on the Alliance cares that its the same model as the Blood Elves. No one on the Horde should care that the Alliance has them because the lore is already there and has been there since Vanilla for the High Elves to be in the Alliance. There is nothing lore breaking about this idea.

Game breaking? After 11 years with Blood Elves in the Horde and all the new Allied Races coming in I highly doubt that the arrival of High Elves as an Alliance Allied Race will really effect the player balance of power anymore. I mean players will still have to rep grind to unlock them and level them up from level 20 as an alt. But if people's complaints about top Mythic+ and Mythic raids being 90% Horde are true and High Elves shift that balance, doesn't that actually help the game? If it is true that adding Blood Elves to the Horde is what saved the Horde faction post Vanilla from being overwhelmed by the Alliance in terms of server populations and raid populations, wouldn't it be fair to do similar for the Alliance in the post Legion era where raiding and pvp BG/Arena seem to be Horde dominated? Server populations? With pvp realms becoming a thing of the past, I don't think that sort of population balance will be important anymore. With the new community systems Blizzard is adding in BfA, server population issues will start to become redundant. Plus the Horde will still have Blood Elves...and Vulpera, and Nightborne, and Zandalari Trolls...and the long awaited Brown orcs! Its not like people will not want to play Horde for lack of good races to pick. The only thing that will drive Horde players away would be if the story makes them something they don't want to be, and even without High Elves in the Alliance, they would flee.

So there is no lore reason why players can't be High Elves. There shouldn't be any game related issues with it happening other than quick enemy recognition in pvp, which has already been an issue with pandarens and somewhat with nightborne. It shouldn't break player server balance anymore. It might balance out Mythics. And it would end these sort of thread once the Elf RP crowd finally can get their damned Elves.

[Deleted]

Still funny to me that "there's not enough High Elves left in the world" was an argument against their being playable for the longest time, and yet here we have Void Elves, which have existed for like 3 months?? and surely there can't be even 100 of them, canonically?

[protip]

snip

Lore doesn't exist in a vacuum, and Blizzard isn't going to copy-paste blood elves over to the Alliance. Void elves are an unwelcome compromise, because compromise is unwelcome. That's a personal problem, not something Blizzard needs to apologize for. High elves in their current state will never be an Alliance race, in the same way that humans in their current state will never be a Horde race. It doesn't matter if the Horde recruits humans from some distant island, because the most important part of faction identity is what races you can play. The lore just doesn't matter in that context.

I know by now that the response to this will be "but void elves!" and then I'll explain that was the compromise. And then I'll hear "but Nightborne!" and I'll have to explain that the Nightborne were given to the Horde because Blizzard is extremely careful about balancing allied races. Our elf for your elf, that's what happened, and that's why the void elf storyline seems weird, and people think it's strange that the Nightborne went Horde. When Blizzard tries to shoehorn in a compromise on behalf of players, that design quality is going to have some holes in it.

I recognize that there is a group of people who want to roleplay elf characters. Much of this thread has seen development towards a woodsy, magical, slightly modified skin tone. Those also already exist in the form of night elves. You now have access to both that woodsy type of elves, and the Thalassian model. There have already been concessions on behalf of high elf fans. You don't have to like it, but some of the decisions Blizzard has made can't be changed without sacrificing something of greater value. If you really want to roleplay as a high elf on the Alliance, just choose an elf and use your imagination. You have selected a option that is no longer a major part of the Alliance, and you'll have to make some sacrifices for choosing an unusual story for your character. It's not Blizzard's responsibility to make every roleplay scenario playable.

But there isn't any real discussion to be had.

The premise of the thread is 'how can we change High Elves enough to justify including them as an Allied race?'.

Right, I don't disagree with you on the "how can we justify high elves on the Alliance" part, but I do think there's a place for discussion. I'd like people to give some consideration to alternate paths in whatever form that might take. Void elves are the model without the theme, I'm suggesting some of the themes without the model. We really don't need more elves, so let's talk about something new, even if it means using elves as a starting point.

[Alanar]

They were part of the alliance only for a very short period, only to help themself.
Naming them a core part of the alliance is realy old lore and not even true.
I am facepalming this whole thread were my palm start hurting.
Overexplaining doesnt work and people still want the horde blood elves with blue eyes.

The void elves clearly stopped the debate, so why continue? Wait no dont even awnser this my good lord.

- - - Updated - - -

Lore doesn't exist in a vacuum, and Blizzard isn't going to copy-paste blood elves over to the Alliance. Void elves are an unwelcome compromise, because compromise is unwelcome. That's a personal problem, not something Blizzard needs to apologize for. High elves in their current state will never be an Alliance race, in the same way that humans in their current state will never be a Horde race. It doesn't matter if the Horde recruits humans from some distant island, because the most important part of faction identity is what races you can play. The lore just doesn't matter in that context.

I know by now that the response to this will be "but void elves!" and then I'll explain that was the compromise. And then I'll hear "but Nightborne!" and I'll have to explain that the Nightborne were given to the Horde because Blizzard is extremely careful about balancing allied races. Our elf for your elf, that's what happened, and that's why the void elf storyline seems weird, and people think it's strange that the Nightborne went Horde. When Blizzard tries to shoehorn in a compromise on behalf of players, that design quality is going to have some holes in it.

I recognize that there is a group of people who want to roleplay elf characters. Much of this thread has seen development towards a woodsy, magical, slightly modified skin tone. Those also already exist in the form of night elves. You now have access to both that woodsy type of elves, and the Thalassian model. There have already been concessions on behalf of high elf fans. You don't have to like it, but some of the decisions Blizzard has made can't be changed without sacrificing something of greater value. If you really want to roleplay as a high elf on the Alliance, just choose an elf and use your imagination. You have selected a option that is no longer a major part of the Alliance, and you'll have to make some sacrifices for choosing an unusual story for your character. It's not Blizzard's responsibility to make every roleplay scenario playable.



Right, I don't disagree with you on the "how can we justify high elves on the Alliance" part, but I do think there's a place for discussion. I'd like people to give some consideration to alternate paths in whatever form that might take. Void elves are the model without the theme, I'm suggesting some of the themes without the model. We really don't need more elves, so let's talk about something new, even if it means using elves as a starting point.

I dont think there is place for this anymore afther 11 years of pointless discussion..

[Ithekro]

The response is not "but Void Elves" or anything like that, the response is, look around the Alliance cities, leveling zones, Pandaria, Alliance side of Dalaran, Northrend, Outlands, and the Broken Isles. Find the Alliance High Elves. There are plenty of them to be adventures. And they've been there the whole time.

The argument that "there aren't enough of them to justify a race" becomes bullshit in the face of Void Elves and everyone can see that. (There are probably more High Elves in Alliance territory than there were Draenei on the Exodar).

Now if people would RP Void Elves as High Elves and ignore the void parts, people would probably be happy or at least sedated. But some RPer are edgelords and can't not be emo elves or void bombs because that's what their model looks like, and they've had too much drama class but don't know how to not overact. If you are going to overact, be a Giant Ham and/or chew the scenery like a memorable actor. Not a cringlord.

[Obelisk Kai]

Right, I don't disagree with you on the "how can we justify high elves on the Alliance" part, but I do think there's a place for discussion. I'd like people to give some consideration to alternate paths in whatever form that might take. Void elves are the model without the theme, I'm suggesting some of the themes without the model. We really don't need more elves, so let's talk about something new, even if it means using elves as a starting point.

Half Elves then.

[Shibito]

For the Alliance!

Ugh this is why i cant play alliance anymore a 17 year old crybaby high king

[protip]

The response is not "but Void Elves" or anything like that, the response is, look around the Alliance cities, leveling zones, Pandaria, Alliance side of Dalaran, Northrend, Outlands, and the Broken Isles. Find the Alliance High Elves. There are plenty of them to be adventures. And they've been there the whole time.

The argument that "there aren't enough of them to justify a race" becomes bullshit in the face of Void Elves and everyone can see that. (There are probably more High Elves in Alliance territory than there were Draenei on the Exodar).

Now if people would RP Void Elves as High Elves and ignore the void parts, people would probably be happy or at least sedated. But some RPer are edgelords and can't not be emo elves or void bombs because that's what their model looks like, and they've had too much drama class but don't know how to not overact. If you are going to overact, be a Giant Ham and/or chew the scenery like a memorable actor. Not a cringlord.

High elves, in their current form, are indistinguishable from blood elves, and will never be added as playable characters. They may be in the game as NPCs, but the post you're responding to explains why that doesn't matter. If you move past that, the next argument is the void elf one.

The void elf argument is an attempt to break down two ideas: 1) the population argument, 2) the idea that factions need to be distinct. This doesn't work because void elves were already a compromise. Blizzard still clearly holds the position that factions should be different. As I explained in my previous post, the population argument is irrelevant; these decisions are made for the sake of gameplay. The reason that we know "there are very few high elves remaining in the Alliance," and "they've been assimilated into other cultures," even if only through exposition, is because Blizzard was not interested in adding them. It may just be an excuse to back up a design choice, but without a compelling reason to change that design, high elves are a pipe dream.

Half Elves then.

So, what would make half elves cool and different? Why not start with some backstory, anyone have ideas?

We know that they are hated by elves, and at least Garithos thought they were scum. What kind of conditions might they live in?

[Obelisk Kai]

High elves, in their current form, are indistinguishable from blood elves, and will never be added as playable characters. They may be in the game as NPCs, but the post you're responding to explains why that doesn't matter. If you move past that, the next argument is the void elf one.

The void elf argument is an attempt to break down two ideas: 1) the population argument, 2) the idea that factions need to be distinct. This doesn't work because void elves were already a compromise. Blizzard still clearly holds the position that factions should be different. As I explained in my previous post, the population argument is irrelevant; these decisions are made for the sake of gameplay. The reason that we know "there are very few high elves remaining in the Alliance," and "they've been assimilated into other cultures," even if only through exposition, is because Blizzard was not interested in adding them. It may just be an excuse to back up a design choice, but without a compelling reason to change that design, high elves are a pipe dream.



So, what would make half elves cool and different? Why not start with some backstory, anyone have ideas?

We know that they are hated by elves, and at least Garithos thought they were scum. What kind of conditions might they live in?

They're the children of the High Elves who sided with the Alliance, they know their parents' homeland hates them and considers them mongrels. The Humans they live with are more sympathetic but they live as a kind apart. They try and live up to their elven parent's ideal of what Quel'thalas was, whilst regarding Quel'thalas itself as a kingdom of traitors who turned their backs on thousands of years of shared history to side with the Horde.

[FlubberPuddy]

SNIP

Really good post and explanation on the crux of the issue.

I mean just look at these threads:

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20762116548 (About High Elves)
https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20762007586 (About thinking Wildhammer Dwarves were wiped out)

The amount of support both got pretty much shows how a not so insignificant amount of Alliance players are feeling about their Allied Races right now. Silly to think that Alliance players cannot ask for the Allied Races on our faction already, but are not yet playable.

I think another thing to understand is that Allied Races aren't meant to appeal to everyone, they're not like the old new races being added. For instance, I don't care for Dwarves, or Draenei much, but that doesn't mean I can't understand that some players love them dearly and will play them. They just aren't for me. You know what are though? High Elves. And I don't seem to be alone in that regard, heck don't even seem to be that minor in support compared to other Alliance race options.

What I mainly see when I see opposition coming from Blood Elf players is that "whatever High Elves get for customization should apply to Blood Elves too" oh ho so I think they don't want to feel slighted by the customization options. Except this is already how Draenei players feel with LF Draenei "why did it take a whole race just for gold eyes?" and how Blood Elf players feel on Void Elves "BEs should get the male facial hair options too!"

Well doesn't look like that's stopping Blizzard from implementing these races in any way whatsoever so that statement, while understandable, is pretty moot. The extra customizations given to the ARs are undoubtedly put in to increase the differences from the existing races, therefore it's only natural to assume that if High Elves get added they can be done the same way as well.

You are right though @Ithekro that changing High Elves cosmetically is more for Horde players than anything else. I bet a lot of people in support for High Elves don't really care either way as long as proper High Elves actually got added in. But even then these ideas are great for possibly adding new customization should High Elves get released.

Also I've seen some people say there's not much discussion to be had but if that were truly true then topics like this would've died out? The truly dead topics don't continue at all. In brainstorming a lot can be discussed because you're focusing on future potential with a basis of what is available now.

[Obelisk Kai]

snip

I don't care that Alliance players feel hard done by the current allied race selection. Blizzard bent over backwards with Void Elves and it still wasn't enough.

There are plenty of ways of dealing with any feelings of being short changed without agitating for a carbon copy of the Horde's most popular race.

You are feeling hard done by because you want what you can never have.

Use your imaginations and focus on something else.

[FlubberPuddy]

I don't care that Alliance players feel hard done by the current allied race selection. Blizzard bent over backwards with Void Elves and it still wasn't enough.

There are plenty of ways of dealing with any feelings of being short changed without agitating for a carbon copy of the Horde's most popular race.

You are feeling hard done by because you want what you can never have.

Use your imaginations and focus on something else.

No thanks, don't care what you think either. I'll continue supporting a race on Alliance I actually care about.

That feels more productive of my time than taking your advice.

If you believe High Elves truly won't ever be a thing then good on you, but from what I've noticed you seem to try real hard against their inclusion on all fronts so it makes me think you don't really believe that.

[Ithekro]

I don't care that Alliance players feel hard done by the current allied race selection. Blizzard bent over backwards with Void Elves and it still wasn't enough.

There are plenty of ways of dealing with any feelings of being short changed without agitating for a carbon copy of the Horde's most popular race.

You are feeling hard done by because you want what you can never have.

Use your imaginations and focus on something else.

There are already High Elves (or carbon copies of "the Horde's most popular race") in the Alliance, and they've been there, in game, since before any Blood Elf joined the Horde, or anyone could play an elf that wasn't a Night Elf.

It shouldn't matter anymore. There is no lore preventing it from happening, because it already exists all over the Alliance since before the Blood Elves joined the Horde. Blood Elves are Blood Elves. They are For the Horde. High Elves are High Elves, they are for the Alliance. Its has been that way since the Horde got Blood Elves, and hasn't changed since. Playable High Elves does nothing to the Blood Elves story and tarnishes nothing about Blood Elves or their players. It won't effect them at all. Save for those that were playing Blood Elf only because they couldn't play High Elf, but those are the sort you really don't want in the Horde anyway, as they have no loyalty. Will they be snooty about it? Probably, but you can shove your boot into their faces in pvp later as you have seniority and a half dozen brown orcs backing you up. It shouldn't effect player balance anymore, or if it does it wont matter due to how sharding and community systems are going to work in BfA. PVP realms are going to be non-existent. BG and Arena are already dominated by the Horde from what I understand. High End Progressive Raiding is already dominated by the Horde. Mythic+ Top 100 is already dominated by the Horde. Giving the Alliance High Elves as an Allied Race, won't matter for balance. All it does is give those player that have been dying for their High Elf fantasy their damned elves after desiring them for 14 or 15 years now.

Would I make one? Probably not. I don't make alts very often (I only have six characters after 10 years of playing and the newest one made was at the start of MoP)
Do I have a Blood Elf? Yes.
Would I race change him to High Elf? Probably not, unless my guild decided they needed another priest on the Alliance side, which is doubtful, since they prefer druid and paladin healers, and I'd rather play my warlock.

[Deleted]

Have been following this and other threads closely, as they offer *some* interesting discussion.

I can understand the plight, but most of the time becomes unreasonable. Truth is, as was mentioned before, the real problem lies on TBC when High Elves became Horde. It was a bold move, one that gave the story or expectations a good spin - and I say good because it turned out to be a much more interesting story than High Elves simply joining Alliance. They were never part of the Alliance to begin with, as said it was more of a short alliance made out of necessity than truly adopting the values of the Alliance. And the only direct link existing apart of some stragglers is Silver Covenant, a small militia that now represents the Alliance within Kirin Tor but feeling more for other ulterior motives (Rhonin & Alleria nostalgia) than the Alliance itself. But yeah, this contradicted most expectations.

Some players however extrapolate too far (for example, "Elisande pointing out Quel'dorei = High Elves = Alliance" - if anything Silver Covenant would have been mentioned to reinforce the connection you want to see, not the other way around; the mingling referred has more to do with the mixed bloodline than a faction) and cling to whatever they can. But the reality is some Alliance players would wish to have the Thalassian model, but with pale skin and blue eyes, and that's it. This is what I feel is the true reason for sure request - and what sparked these discussions since TBC. And don't get me wrong, I do too recognize these are true High Elves, as they are envisioned for most, the ones that did not become Blood Elves for political/cultural reasons (though culture remains similar in essence, but the obvious dichotomy regarding magic and sustenance).

People ask for a compromise now when they got one already, in fact. I understand it will not please everyone, but I do not see it much different than this thread itself. With all due respect to the OP because he's putting quite the work on these concepts, these are far from the mark as well, for me this doesn't become close to what I'd like to see either, with tribal paintings (yes, I know where you get your inspiration from. but it doesn't give me that vibe at all, looks just tribal) and some weird hairdos that have absolutely nothing to do how the culture is imagined (if we are to point out that "void elves look like monsters with tentacle hair", I must say I'd prefer the void elves hair options - some are really tame - than this tribal, ruffled awkward thing) and DRAGONS!!11!, which you already admitted is something that's not working lol. Again, I'm not trying to disregard your work, but just wanting to show that like with Void Elves, not all are going to like these suggestions and it's not how they envision HEs either.

I have asked my fellow Alliance friends about this and what I see (which is anecdotal at best) is they are pretty content with Void Elves - because they wanted a Thalassian model. Some point out the extreme edginess (which I totally agree, not my favourite part) but they are fine with it. Only one mentioned the High Elf situation, but even then he understands why it was not implemented and this is some sort of compromise that won't please some, but will please others.

It is asked in this thread several times why some players are against High Elves being implemented, if it's not going to affect them directly. People excuse with Horde bias, feeling like Horde is defensive about feeling something is taken from them (true to some extent, because like many others I didn't like the Pandaren experience at all) and so on. For me, from a gameplay standpoint (I play both factions, btw)... Too many god damn elves already. And I'm one that started my wow with building an army of night elves and blood elves later on! But the game has more to offer, over the years I changed my choices, I've tried different races and stuck with them, because I want variety to choose from, we already have 4 elf races, starting to be too much. The same with the half-elf suggestion, it's again... another elf with a similar model with an excuse to justify it. Enough, really. You might feel that adding one more won't do harm, but the reality is it's going to limit your choices even further and take away the opportunity to have something innovative, something different and exciting. I am up to for a lighter skin to be added for Void Elves, this is something that I believe would reach another level of compromise with the RP community (who are the ones I feel that actually have some complaints to back them up then the "I wanna be pretty and innocent and pure" crowd: it is actually difficult to have good RP when a race looks is so strongly attached to their story, ie, hard to overcome the void edginess). But another race entirely... Nope.

Either way, these are my 2 cents. I think some people in this thread (both sides) are being very reasonable with their arguments and counterpoints, makes an interesting read, other the occasional "I don't care what you think *insert emoticon*" post.

Edit: Spelling

[Traycor]

Really cool! These are a must IMO, but with blue paint of course .

Updated male version. Every one of these skins is darker than the darkest Blood Elf skin. These varieties show that even with darker skin, a blue eyed High Elf can still look like a High Elf, and it will feel different from Blood Elves. I believe with the new hair styles, war paint, feathered wooden ear jewelry, optional hair streaks, optional battle scars, and darker skin tones, the High Elf design is more than sufficiently different from Blood Elves to warrant adding a High Elf Allied Race into the game.

[RangerDaz]

Updated male version. Every one of these skins is darker than the darkest Blood Elf skin. These varieties show that even with darker skin, a blue eyed High Elf can still look like a High Elf, and it will feel different from Blood Elves. I believe with the new hair styles, war paint, feathered wooden ear jewelry, optional hair streaks, optional battle scars, and darker skin tones, the High Elf design is more than sufficiently different from Blood Elves to warrant adding a High Elf Allied Race into the game.

Very nice, Traycor! They seem cool ideas.

The only one i didn't like much was the "garden elf" hair style (the first one from the right, the brown one). All the rest looks great.

[Traycor]

and DRAGONS!!11!, which you already admitted is something that's not working lol.

I think I should prune the less lore friendly ideas from the OP. They seem to be causing confusion. Many people think the thread is proposing to implement all of these ideas together, which is not the case. It's to brainstorm new potential tools that could be mixed and matched or used for inspiration for something else entirely.

The primary usefulness of the dragon suggestion was to point out that something like an alliance with a magical race can in and of itself create enough distinction for racial design (see Dragonmaw). It's a game design philosophy thing. If the ideas work, then you try and see if the lore can be created around it. If not, you drop or modify the idea. That's the gradual process of design.

[RangerDaz]

I think I should prune the less lore friendly ideas from the OP. They seem to be causing confusion. Many people think the thread is proposing to implement all of these ideas together, which is not the case. It's to brainstorm new potential tools that could be mixed and matched or used for inspiration for something else entirely.

The primary usefulness of the dragon suggestion was to point out that something like an alliance with a magical race can in and of itself create enough distinction for racial design (see Dragonmaw). It's a game design philosophy thing. If the ideas work, then you try and see if the lore can be created around it. If not, you drop or modify the idea. That's the gradual process of design.

I think it would be nice to separate the best ideas from the rest, placing them as optional or alternative, or simply other ideas.