1. #11781
    Quote Originally Posted by Musta View Post
    Again, wheres this information, i wanna read it.
    I mean, it's really not hard to go to WoWPedia and type "high elf" in the search bar.

  2. #11782
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    i literally linked this in my previous post. Theres nothing there talking about magic addiction on alliance high elves.

  3. #11783
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    I completely understand your argument. I think you misunderstood my response. @Obelisk Kai's entire stance is that High Elves are Blood Elves, even if you present what he feels are debatable facts because in the end, he has the "Blizzard has determined Blood Elves are High Elves. Ion Hazzikostas has deemed it so as Game Director, which means they will not be implemented and as GM, he has final power and say on whether or not they qualify as a playable allied race." To Ion they do not. @Obelisk Kai advocates that. That's the wall you run into arguing with him. But by all means, this is entertaining.
    High elves are not Blood elves. That is just the most basic thing that has been settled more than a decade ago and going in circles around it is fucking pedantic.

    Hazzikostas may say that Azeroth is made of jelly and pig shit, debating whether or not Azeroth is made of jelly and pig shit or if High elves are a viable allied race does not have to do with what that man says.

    The fact that some people are able to put in doubt decisions from the developers while opposing High elves by covering themselves behind Blizzard's butt is, at the very least, hypocritical.

    That is what is entertaining. To see people thinking they have some godly intervention into what they defend while is nothing more than the opinion of a developer that has been effectively countered many times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Musta View Post
    i literally linked this in my previous post. Theres nothing there talking about magic addiction on alliance high elves.
    Click -THAT- green text. Is linked -DIRECTLY- to what you were asking for...

    And read it.

    Just, read it...

  4. #11784
    Quote Originally Posted by Musta View Post
    i literally linked this in my previous post. Theres nothing there talking about magic addiction on alliance high elves.
    Just click the link. If you even hovered your mouse button over it you'd see it takes to a specific section.

  5. #11785
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    High elves are not Blood elves. That is just the most basic thing that has been settled more than a decade ago and going in circles around it is fucking pedantic.

    Hazzikostas may say that Azeroth is made of jelly and pig shit, debating whether or not Azeroth is made of jelly and pig shit or if High elves are a viable allied race does not have to do with what that man says.

    The fact that some people are able to put in doubt decisions from the developers while opposing High elves by covering themselves behind Blizzard's butt is, at the very least, hypocritical.

    That is what is entertaining. To see people thinking they have some godly intervention into what they defend while is nothing more than the opinion of a developer that has been effectively countered many times.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Click -THAT- green text. Is linked -DIRECTLY- to what you were asking for...

    And read it.

    Just, read it...
    But they are the same. They are a splinter faction who did not want to take the new moniker and who did not want to use specific methods to combat their mana withdrawal problems before the Sunwell was restored. Before the Scourge had overrun Quel'thalas, all of them have been High Elves. Nothing special happened to these people except that the majority first got green glowing eyes, und the some of them got yellow glowing eyes. You know, this is the specialty of Elves, that the colour of their glowing eyes somehow depends on their "mana diet". Just like flamingos get their pink feathers because of things which they eat. Geez...

    A different eye glow or colour scheme in clothing is not relevant to define a new race, just like 15 years is nothing more than a blink for such a long-living race. Void Elves are different from both because they are infused with the void. Everything else is splitting hairs.

  6. #11786
    Except the Draenei are like 40 times older than the High Elves and they became separate from Man'ari overnight because of Fel usage. Do you know how many "overnights" are in 15 years? Five thousand four hundred seventy-five. Never mind a lot of High Elves had already parted with Quel'thalas centuries ago.
    OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

    And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"

  7. #11787
    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    But they are the same. They are a splinter faction who did not want to take the new moniker and who did not want to use specific methods to combat their mana withdrawal problems before the Sunwell was restored. Before the Scourge had overrun Quel'thalas, all of them have been High Elves. Nothing special happened to these people except that the majority first got green glowing eyes, und the some of them got yellow glowing eyes. You know, this is the specialty of Elves, that the colour of their glowing eyes somehow depends on their "mana diet". Just like flamingos get their pink feathers because of things which they eat. Geez...

    A different eye glow or colour scheme in clothing is not relevant to define a new race, just like 15 years is nothing more than a blink for such a long-living race. Void Elves are different from both because they are infused with the void. Everything else is splitting hairs.
    "Nothing special happened to those people".

    High elves suffered through the pains of magic withdrawal just like the blood elves did, except they did not rely on "mana vampirism" (as they have put it, themselves) to counter those effects. In the real world, exercising and training your body is one of the many ways you can use to fight addiction, so it could be used to justify "something special" for the high elves.

    On top of that, it's a fact that fel magic can have an adverse effect on one's body, so it's a real possibility that the fel magic permeating Silvermoon (thanks to those fel crystals) could have negatively impacted the blood elves' physique, even if just slightly. Remember: blood elves started the game unable to be warriors, so they apparently couldn't wear heavy armor or wield heavy weapons unless they were filling themselves with the stolen holy magic from M'uru. That's one point in favor of my hypothesis.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    Except the Draenei are like 40 times older than the High Elves and they became separate from Man'ari overnight because of Fel usage. Do you know how many "overnights" are in 15 years? Five thousand four hundred seventy-five. Never mind a lot of High Elves had already parted with Quel'thalas centuries ago.
    Sargeras heavily infused the draenei with fel magic with the express intention of corrupting and transforming them. It wasn't just simple "background radiation".

  8. #11788
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    "Nothing special happened to those people".

    High elves suffered through the pains of magic withdrawal just like the blood elves did, except they did not rely on "mana vampirism" (as they have put it, themselves) to counter those effects. In the real world, exercising and training your body is one of the many ways you can use to fight addiction, so it could be used to justify "something special" for the high elves.

    On top of that, it's a fact that fel magic can have an adverse effect on one's body, so it's a real possibility that the fel magic permeating Silvermoon (thanks to those fel crystals) could have negatively impacted the blood elves' physique, even if just slightly. Remember: blood elves started the game unable to be warriors, so they apparently couldn't wear heavy armor or wield heavy weapons unless they were filling themselves with the stolen holy magic from M'uru. That's one point in favor of my hypothesis.

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    Sargeras heavily infused the draenei with fel magic with the express intention of corrupting and transforming them. It wasn't just simple "background radiation".
    Then please tell me why the heck did Blizzard had to invent Void Elves to differentiate them from Blood Elves, if High Elves are that much different compared to Blood Elves just from their special mana diet???

    Also, what happened to Blood Elves with the "fel taint" is not comparable to what happened to the Eredar. Not at all. It's like comparing Chernobyl victims with people who just had a radiology screening.

    Sorry, your logic is fundamentally flawed.

    And don't bring the availability of Warriors in here. This is just gameplay mechanics. Just like Gnomes got priests, who are in lore mere medics. They have always been there, just not in the focus. The addition of new class combinations is mostly a retcon with some exceptions (like Troll Druids for which we got an in-game explanation).
    Last edited by scubi666stacy; 2019-09-09 at 12:28 PM.

  9. #11789
    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    Then please tell me why the heck did Blizzard had to invent Void Elves to differentiate them from Blood Elves, if High Elves are that much different compared to Blood Elves just from their special mana diet???
    I don't pretend to read minds. Could be a myriad of reasons. They felt high elves didn't fit the story being told in BfA. Or they hate the high elf community. For all we know, any of those are just as likely. Perhaps it's because of both those reasons. Perhaps it's neither of those reasons.

    Also, what happened to Blood Elves with the "fel taint" is not comparable to what happened to the Eredar. Not at all. It's like comparing Chernobyl victims with people who just had a radiology screening.
    That's... exactly what I said.

    Sorry, your logic is fundamentally flawed.
    I think it's your reading comprehension that's "fundamentally flawed", here.

    And don't bring the availability of Warriors in here. This is just gameplay mechanics. Just like Gnomes got priests, who are in lore mere medics. They have always been there, just not in the focus. The addition of new class combinations is mostly a retcon with some exceptions (like Troll Druids for which we got an in-game explanation).
    ... You do know that class options for the playable races are heavily tied to lore, right? It's why we don't have orc paladins, draenei warlocks, pandaren death knights, human demon hunters, etc?

    So, if blood elves couldn't be warriors, which is like a basic class, there had to be a reason. And negative effects from fel magic radiation on their bodies is one possible explanation.

  10. #11790
    Okay, ty, i concede. Tho the same page says they have no culture, just a glorious past. Well, im not stupid, so i was wrong about the lack of HE details. Im sorry.

  11. #11791
    Herald of the Titans Chain Chungus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    asian thalassian :O
    Asian elves confirmed.

    Now Blizz just needs to get in touch with Talendrion for some cool designs!

  12. #11792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Donald View Post
    Asian elves confirmed.

    Now Blizz just needs to get in touch with Talendrion for some cool designs!
    Blizzard already has the capability as well:



    Alexstrazsa is basically a female Blood Elf body that's modified, and Y'sera too is a modified night elf (though I think her bone structure or w/e is blood elf), and ofc Nozdormu is a modified High elf/Night elf.

    This shows us the amount of variation they can do with races while still having them look like a member of that race.

    Y'sera obviously looks like a Night Elf, just unique.
    Alexstrasza obviously looks like a Blood Elf, just modified skin/eye colors.
    Nozdormu is obviously a High Elf, just modified/unique.

    It shows that you can change the proportions/looks drastically and still keep the essence of a look. Blizz knows how to do this.

    For Nozdormu's look they can easily remove all the dragon related regalia/tattoos and give a more "normal" looking face/size. Boom, male High Elves that look different from Blood Elves but are still looking like a High Elf.

    Just like how Y'sera is a different kind of Night Elf both different from playable Night Elves and Nightborne.

    And no I do not mean because of their horns or dragon shit like that, (cuz I know some dumbos will go "BuT tHeY r DrGnS!")

    They are obviously choosing to look like members of the respective races with their forms. Just like Kalec who basically looks human.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Better pic for reference:


  13. #11793
    Herald of the Titans Chain Chungus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Blizzard already has the capability as well:



    Alexstrazsa is basically a female Blood Elf body that's modified, and Y'sera too is a modified night elf (though I think her bone structure or w/e is blood elf), and ofc Nozdormu is a modified High elf/Night elf.

    This shows us the amount of variation they can do with races while still having them look like a member of that race.

    Y'sera obviously looks like a Night Elf, just unique.
    Alexstrasza obviously looks like a Blood Elf, just modified skin/eye colors.
    Nozdormu is obviously a High Elf, just modified/unique.

    It shows that you can change the proportions/looks drastically and still keep the essence of a look. Blizz knows how to do this.

    For Nozdormu's look they can easily remove all the dragon related regalia/tattoos and give a more "normal" looking face/size. Boom, male High Elves that look different from Blood Elves but are still looking like a High Elf.

    Just like how Y'sera is a different kind of Night Elf both different from playable Night Elves and Nightborne.

    And no I do not mean because of their horns or dragon shit like that, (cuz I know some dumbos will go "BuT tHeY r DrGnS!")

    They are obviously choosing to look like members of the respective races with their forms. Just like Kalec who basically looks human.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Better pic for reference:

    Honestly, the Nozdormu model would be an awesome one to base it on! And with the Dragon Isles being likely, I think it would be the perfect time to meet the culture that he copied the appearance of (dragons don't invent new forms, they use forms that already exist for diplomacy, etc.).

  14. #11794
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    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    But they are the same. They are a splinter faction who did not want to take the new moniker and who did not want to use specific methods to combat their mana withdrawal problems before the Sunwell was restored. Before the Scourge had overrun Quel'thalas, all of them have been High Elves. Nothing special happened to these people except that the majority first got green glowing eyes, und the some of them got yellow glowing eyes. You know, this is the specialty of Elves, that the colour of their glowing eyes somehow depends on their "mana diet". Just like flamingos get their pink feathers because of things which they eat. Geez...

    A different eye glow or colour scheme in clothing is not relevant to define a new race, just like 15 years is nothing more than a blink for such a long-living race. Void Elves are different from both because they are infused with the void. Everything else is splitting hairs.
    Oh, look.

    Catch this and please REMEMBER IT.

    The High elf civilization from before the scourge attack is -not- the same as the one that survived and splintered into the High elves and the loyal to Kael'thas, and, in a much minor quantity, students of Umbric.

    They may maintain a name that was the name everyone used back then, but that doesn't mean they are the exact same. Things changed a lot since the scourge attack, and now they -(the High elves)- are a splintered people who dislike the horde and despised the ways their former people took to survive, when there were other methods that didn't involved getting fixes for their addiction with the lives of living beings, enslaving a naaru, and entering in wars to get more power, or even mind controlling people to avoid protests.

    Not even the Blood elves with their restored city are now the High elves they once were. Imagine the High elves, who escaped to the Alliance, or got exiled and don't live on their land anymore. They live in Alliance lands, with people from the Alliance. They want Silvermoon to become Alliance, not to return there while it's horde territory.

    This is why saying that because they have the same name all their people had back then, it means they are the same.

    The only thing in that they are the same is the race or whatever you want to call it. On the other hand, fel made changes to the Blood elves that the High elves didn't suffered and they live different lives in different places. It's like saying that we should have not got Kul'tiran because we have humans and these are also humans (OBVIOUSLY before we even knew they were going to make new human models). And the best part is that High elves would not need such a drastically different model, because they already have visual differences in the body that can be developed on.

    Maybe High elves had a slightly different ear shape, maybe they were paler than the pale tones we have seen, maybe they had hair colors that can no longer be manifested in Blood elf's bodies, maybe they also had purple eyes, maybe they now wear tattoos or regalia that signifies ownership to the group of those who still call themselves High elves... Or anything that involves a: 'High elves look like this when not affected by fel radiation' and even body changes due to the different approach to the addiction.

    So many options and so many possibilities that are lore friendly. Just take into account that High elf models were done just at the same time as Blood elf ones, and they, not being playable, just got the minor visual differences according to lore. That doesn't mean it can't be developed on if the appearance is too similar for the taste of some people.
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2019-09-10 at 06:01 AM.

  15. #11795
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    You misunderstand - in this particular instance I am not making a claim one way or the other. I am talking about the specific terms addressed above, not the rolling debate that has been going on for some time. In gameplay terms, "race" is completely arbitrary - it can be a species boundary, it can be an ethnic boundary, it can an entirely abstract boundary, etc. etc. What truly separates the "races" in WoW are game mechanics like racial abilities, starting locations, and class limitations (and perhaps playability and non-playability). A "variant," genuine or not, is just as arbitrary. But as long as we know what we're talking about, we can talk about it instead of talking past one another using different versions of the terms.
    It is not completely arbitrary however. For most of the game's lifespan, most of the divisions were predicated on being actually different races. A Tauren is not an Elf, and an Elf is not a Human.

    Allied races introduced another possible division, that of being an ethnic variant of an already playable race. Hence Highmountain Tauren, Void Elves and Lightforged Draenei.

    Yet those are the only two we have concrete evidence for, species and ethnic. I would argue that the definition for race should be restricted to what Blizzard, through the races it introduces to the game, shows us what they consider to be the definition of race.

    This rules out races being defined by 'an entirely abstract boundary' which seems to include the political distinction that separates High Elven exiles from the Blood Elves. After all, while a Pandaren player can choose which faction to embrace as a part of their levelling process, they are not regarded as separate races as a result of that choice, and are regarded as one people.

  16. #11796
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    It is not completely arbitrary however. For most of the game's lifespan, most of the divisions were predicated on being actually different races. A Tauren is not an Elf, and an Elf is not a Human.

    Allied races introduced another possible division, that of being an ethnic variant of an already playable race. Hence Highmountain Tauren, Void Elves and Lightforged Draenei.

    Yet those are the only two we have concrete evidence for, species and ethnic. I would argue that the definition for race should be restricted to what Blizzard, through the races it introduces to the game, shows us what they consider to be the definition of race.

    This rules out races being defined by 'an entirely abstract boundary' which seems to include the political distinction that separates High Elven exiles from the Blood Elves. After all, while a Pandaren player can choose which faction to embrace as a part of their levelling process, they are not regarded as separate races as a result of that choice, and are regarded as one people.
    Ultimately, from a purely gameplay position, the reason I say it is arbitrary is because it is entirely subject to what the developers want - and what they want, will permit, or what they define is entirely subject to their whims. This line can and has changed, and it can change again one way or the other. It's a fictional setting, and so it is arbitrary. An ethnicity can also be defined as a difference in cultural tradition, which pretty aptly circumscribes the High Elven exiles - they're obviously a quite different culture in their refusal to adopt the Blood Elves' use of Mana Tapping during TBC and now with their refusal to recognize Silvermoon's new allegiance to the Horde. In a world dominated by two superpower factions a society's choice of faction allegiance is a pretty significant cultural stamp, I would argue. But again, this is neither here nor there as concerns the above - it is still objectively arbitrary from the stance of the game systems.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #11797
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Ultimately, from a purely gameplay position, the reason I say it is arbitrary is because it is entirely subject to what the developers want - and what they want, will permit, or what they define is entirely subject to their whims. This line can and has changed, and it can change again one way or the other. It's a fictional setting, and so it is arbitrary. An ethnicity can also be defined as a difference in cultural tradition, which pretty aptly circumscribes the High Elven exiles - they're obviously a quite different culture in their refusal to adopt the Blood Elves' use of Mana Tapping during TBC and now with their refusal to recognize Silvermoon's new allegiance to the Horde. In a world dominated by two superpower factions a society's choice of faction allegiance is a pretty significant cultural stamp, I would argue. But again, this is neither here nor there as concerns the above - it is still objectively arbitrary from the stance of the game systems.
    That Blizzard CAN change something is not particularly pertinent to the debate at hand in my opinion. We are debating what constitutes a race right now from what we know and the two lines we have are biological and ethnic. It also took a considerable amount of time for them to accommodate the ethnic shift, with sub-races being requested for well over a decade before the Allied race system was actually introduced, which implies the shifting of the lines is not something done on a whim.

    It is also worth pointing out that when Blizzard did do a neutral race, the Pandaren, they did not allow you to choose a Huojin or Tushui Pandaren from the get go from the character creator, but instead respected their own lines and created a neutral starting experience that allowed the player to decide their faction only after a shared ten levels. While the shared experience was one of the primary motives in creating a neutral race for both sides, in terms of saving time and money, it also implicitly recognized that political division is not enough on it's own to divide a people into two races. The choice for Pandaren reflects they are one people.

    And of course, as goes without saying, the Pandaren experiment of a neutral race was ultimately regarded as a failure by Blizzard with the damage done to faction diversity being the chief reason it has not been repeated.

  18. #11798
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    After all, while a Pandaren player can choose which faction to embrace as a part of their levelling process, they are not regarded as separate races as a result of that choice, and are regarded as one people.
    A High elf would not start in Quel'thalas, or any land where they had to share with the Blood elves.

    High elves would not be placed next to Pandaren on selection screen, nor in a similar position on the allied race list.

    It would be just the next one on the Alliance banner in the Allied race section.

    This is why Pandaren are just one single 'race choice', and not the unrealistic, made up reasons Kai have just invented on the fly to justify a nuance on his favor in some strange way.

    The 'evidence' got by the 'definition of race' supposedly presented on the character selection screen will always be flawed and unreal.

    Some few years ago this exact line of thinking would have ruled out Allied races entirely under the premise that: 'All races presented are totally different from one another so that is the criteria and evidence that determines what is considered a playable race and, therefore, only distinct and unique races can be added, no recolors, no reskins, no variants'.
    Last edited by Aldo Hawk; 2019-09-10 at 02:00 PM.

  19. #11799
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Donald View Post
    Honestly, the Nozdormu model would be an awesome one to base it on! And with the Dragon Isles being likely, I think it would be the perfect time to meet the culture that he copied the appearance of (dragons don't invent new forms, they use forms that already exist for diplomacy, etc.).
    Yeah I'd love for them to base Alliance's High Elves off Nozdormu's model! It would also make sense since we know from the Encyclopedia that many High Elves used meditation as a way to deal with their mana withdrawal coupled with the fact that a lot of the High Elves we see out and about are typically rangers. It could be their "iconic" body look and is way different from the Blood Elves.

  20. #11800
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    That Blizzard CAN change something is not particularly pertinent to the debate at hand in my opinion. We are debating what constitutes a race right now from what we know and the two lines we have are biological and ethnic. It also took a considerable amount of time for them to accommodate the ethnic shift, with sub-races being requested for well over a decade before the Allied race system was actually introduced, which implies the shifting of the lines is not something done on a whim.
    No, it is not pertinent to your historical argument in this thread, but it is pertinent to the post I recently made that you've been responding to. The time it takes them to shift their position in any direction has no bearing on its ultimate arbitrary nature, either. It is entirely at their discretion, and thus at their whim if they so choose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    It is also worth pointing out that when Blizzard did do a neutral race, the Pandaren, they did not allow you to choose a Huojin or Tushui Pandaren from the get go from the character creator, but instead respected their own lines and created a neutral starting experience that allowed the player to decide their faction only after a shared ten levels. While the shared experience was one of the primary motives in creating a neutral race for both sides, in terms of saving time and money, it also implicitly recognized that political division is not enough on it's own to divide a people into two races. The choice for Pandaren reflects they are one people.
    The difference between the Houjin and Tushui Pandaren is both philosophical as well as political, given their choices of faction allegiance. The shared experience, while nice for the Pandaren as a people within the narrative, isn't really material in my opinion. The two Pandaren "races" within the game are still divided by their politics and their philosophy for approaching life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    And of course, as goes without saying, the Pandaren experiment of a neutral race was ultimately regarded as a failure by Blizzard with the damage done to faction diversity being the chief reason it has not been repeated.
    That is true, but many arguments have been forth as to why that case isn't entirely applicable vis-à-vis the Blood Elves and High Elven exiles. I don't personally consider the Pandaren option a failure, myself; but that's not my distinction to make. Nor do I think the developers are either inerrant or objectively correct in several of their own conclusions about the game. The argument to authority is not generally how I approach this concern.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

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