1. #11801
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Sin'dorei's light devotion is directly tied with the Sunwell, the golden eyes are tied to having light devotion through the Sunwell, High elves have light devotion the way they always did, and they didn't had golden eyes before the light infused Sunwell, for the reason that devotion to the light alone doesn't give golden eyes (This would have been a known thing even before the light infusing of the Sunwell), it has to be -actively- done through the Sunwell.

    This doesn't go against what Moorgard said, this is exactly what Moorgard said and this is nothing that goes against what Moorgard said. A Blood elf gets golden eyes because of their devotion to the light, and the way they devote to the light, is through the light infused Sunwell.

    This is not the case with High elves. The High elves devote to the light the same way Humans and Dwarves do. Through the church. And that is not the way they can get golden eyes.

    What happens here is that Kai is headcanoning through an oversimplification of the information, as he often does. Nobody can create a two-point criteria with this subject and expect it to be truthful to the way the light works (thing that as I saw, is overly not known) and the way the Sunwell is involved with the light and devotion to it. Things are complex, and this is not the first time a slightly complex concept in warcraft has been mistaken with being overly simple.

    Just remember him (and many others) repeating over and over how the Thalassians will end up with golden eyes because they were 'suckin'' the light from it. While we only saw paladins and priests having these. The novelty and clarification here is that there is a lore reason for non paladin or priests being able to have those with the condition of -actively- being light worshipers, and the way Sin'dorei do that, is through the Sunwell. Not Quel'dorei.

  2. #11802
    Honestly, if they get rid of factions (or relax them) just give BEs a blue eyed option and call it a day.

  3. #11803
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    It should be the presumed status quo. The contrary position, that they cannot get golden eyes because Blood Elves have a different relationship with the light than High Elves, is the position that requires proof as it is a radically different proposition from the presumed status quo.
    I don't believe you understand how a "status quo" works then. A status quo isn't "presumed" it EXISTS. It MUST exist to be a status quo. That's how it works. This is why the onus becomes on you to prove, as my statement IS the status quo: There are no High Elves with Golden Eyes.

    Your comment in contention was "since High Elves and Blood Elves are the same, if Blood Elves have Golden Eyes so too will High Elves". This is not a status quo because currently no High Elf with Golden Eyes exists.

    You cannot claim something is a "presumed status quo" because by definition a status quo must already exist. Not be presumed, not be deduced, etc. It IS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Which leads neatly into the next point, that as the High Elven exiles are primarily Hunters and Mages (exiled Farstriders and Kirin Tor), they can't have golden eyes.
    This comment really makes no sense, even with all the context because originally you've been saying every non-DH/DK class can have Golden Eyes "based on lore" and now you're saying that High Elves who are Hunters/Mages cannot. Which would also then contradict your statements about how the gameplay option available to player BE characters is a lore based one.

    Because if High Elves who are Hunters/Mages cannot have Golden Eyes then that means it is clearly simply a gameplay decision to allow BE Hunters/Mages the ability to have Golden Eyes. This is if we are keeping up with your logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Plenty of people have have argued that the political separation is tantamount to them being different races.
    Even if others have argued it, I have not. Therefore I am surprised you were surprised by me saying so. I am not the entire pro-High Elf brigade, I am simply me. What others say doesn't mean I also said it. There's some individuals who think High Elves will be announced at this Blizzcon. I would find them very unrealistic imo. I think I also have gone on record for making such posts too in the past (dissuading others that High Elves will come so soon).

    Anyways, I shortened a lot of what you said because this back-and-forth isn't fruitful. Maybe it wasn't fruitful for a very long time, but now with Classic out and the time that takes, as well as my other responsibilities, I am much much less inclined to continue forum conversations that may likely never end.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Shazzrah EU is quite packed and the queues substantial. In the end I didn't play for long yesterday as I got disconnected and retreated to my other gaming love, Europa Universalis 4, as I waited. When I did get in I found the game very enjoyable. Should I get in today, as I am back in the queue as I type this, I hope to reach level 10 on my Druid and head into Darkshore.

    Yes, in classic, I am playing Alliance. Partly because many of my friends are, partly because Alliance was a better developed faction in classic, partly because of the superior PVE experience, partly because I missed vanilla from the Alliance perspective the first time around. I am curious to explore the old game from the blue perspective.
    I'm not sure if you follow media/content creators around WoW much, but it's packed because that is decidedly the "streamer"/"content creator" server for EU therefore it's expected. It's similar to Faerlina US here. Although I found myself a cozy place on Atiesh US. Don't have time for PvP servers these days since I can't stay up with the crowd.

    Hope you enjoy your Druid and time on Alliance, and it sure is the "superior PVE experience" ;D. As another streamer once said, "this is the closest you'll get to Lord of the Rings.....unless you actually play LOTRO."

    I'm really enjoying my time on my Paladin and taking it slow/taking in the world. A lot of people say to play "how you want to play" with regards to first timers, so I'm doing just that.

  4. #11804
    what has this devolved into?
    Anemo: traveler, Sucrose
    Pyro: Yanfei, Amber, diluc, xiangling, thoma, Xinyan, Bennett
    Geo: Noelle, Ningguang, Yun Jin, Gorou
    Hydro: Barbara, Zingqiu, Ayato
    Cyro: Shenhe, Kaeya, Chongyun, Diona, Ayaka, Rosaria
    Electro: Fischl, Lisa, Miko, Kujou, Raiden, Razor

  5. #11805
    Quote Originally Posted by Madkat124 View Post
    Honestly, if they get rid of factions (or relax them) just give BEs a blue eyed option and call it a day.
    That would solve none of the issues the high elf supporters have, and would be just another middle finger to the HE community.

  6. #11806
    pilgrimages to the sunwell have probably not been possible for some time now for some high elves.

    I mean, how can this be possible with Sunreaver?

    We saw during the rescue of Baine that the Sunreaver want the death of Jaina and the traitors of the horde who are with the alliance, for the vengence of the purge of Dalaran.

    As a result, the high elves of the silver covenant are concerned by this threat because they made this purge with Jaina.

    So all the High Elves are not going to sunwell and they will surely "feed" on another source of magic.

    I do not think there will be peace or neutral faction between the high elves of the covenant and the blood elves as long as there will be the Sunreaver in the horde.

  7. #11807
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frenchvince View Post
    pilgrimages to the sunwell have probably not been possible for some time now for some high elves.

    I mean, how can this be possible with Sunreaver?

    We saw during the rescue of Baine that the Sunreaver want the death of Jaina and the traitors of the horde who are with the alliance, for the vengence of the purge of Dalaran.

    As a result, the high elves of the silver covenant are concerned by this threat because they made this purge with Jaina.

    So all the High Elves are not going to sunwell and they will surely "feed" on another source of magic.
    Well, I also think that the pilgrimages would have suffered some changes due to a pair of events since MoP. (Alleria was a special case, since she was not even in Azeroth during the purge of Dalaran, and the war in BfA happened -after- her visit).

    However... Unless there is a way that the Blood elves can cut the arcane magic from reaching the specific group of the High elves... I don't think they would need to find another source.

    Unless they themselves decide to, so they cut even more ties with their former people. But that is just speculation. The energies of the Sunwell can reach the Thalassians anywhere they are so I'm expecting to see more info about this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    That would solve none of the issues the high elf supporters have, and would be just another middle finger to the HE community.
    This is true.

    High elves are not Blood elves. Blue eyes and no faction barrier is not a solution.

  8. #11808
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Fair enough, but the entire concept is also incredibly unlikely as it touches on some live wire real world issues. Were a retcon option taken, it should be to provide those tones to Blood Elf players.
    Yeah, this is not an issue really. Again, as retcons go, saying "yeah there are more skin tones" barely affects anything. And again, there's also the option of introducing another High Elf population that joins the blood elves -and SC, if playable- to add justification.

    There's simply not even an inkling of highborne descendant elves being prejudiced against skin color; of all the elves, Elisande saw the BE as the most kin to the nightborne, even when they look different, and shunned the HE's, who look just like BE's. It's pretty clear that ideology and lifestyle are far more important, and the easy friendship between NB and BE as show how close they are even when they have very opposite skin tones.

    I think it's very easy to interpret NB and BE as not caring about skin tone on the slightest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    Even the one dark skinned elf mentioned in lore, we don't know what that means. All thalassian elves we know of right now are pale skinned, it could be that a dark-skinned thalassian elf is one of those with a ruddy, red complexion (an option available in the character creator) as that would be dark skinned relative to some of the lighter tones available.
    When the point is to add more options, the whole deal is to read the lore to support that; One is using the lore to justify a point of view -add dark skin options for blood elves-

    All you are doing when you say "well they might be referring to the already ruddier skin tones" is contesting the proposition itself, being either because you don't want dark skinned elves, or you believe lore has to be preserved to a standard.

    I doubt is the first is your motivation, the second is a fool's errand: Warcraft's lore is continually evolving and being retconned, it's comic book lore, crowdsourced without a central and unique vision like a book series. Warcraft's lore evolves in relationship to the gameplay desired which includes the options they would want to give players.

    I'm not saying Devi has dark skin as a "gotcha" moment, and that dark skinned elves are a must because of it; I'm simply presenting it a possibility of something that could already be in lore and not need further explanation to be added.

  9. #11809
    Field Marshal Resident Rump's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MyWholeLifeIsThunder View Post
    Yeah, this is not an issue really. Again, as retcons go, saying "yeah there are more skin tones" barely affects anything. And again, there's also the option of introducing another High Elf population that joins the blood elves -and SC, if playable- to add justification.

    There's simply not even an inkling of highborne descendant elves being prejudiced against skin color; of all the elves, Elisande saw the BE as the most kin to the nightborne, even when they look different, and shunned the HE's, who look just like BE's. It's pretty clear that ideology and lifestyle are far more important, and the easy friendship between NB and BE as show how close they are even when they have very opposite skin tones.

    I think it's very easy to interpret NB and BE as not caring about skin tone on the slightest.



    When the point is to add more options, the whole deal is to read the lore to support that; One is using the lore to justify a point of view -add dark skin options for blood elves-

    All you are doing when you say "well they might be referring to the already ruddier skin tones" is contesting the proposition itself, being either because you don't want dark skinned elves, or you believe lore has to be preserved to a standard.

    I doubt is the first is your motivation, the second is a fool's errand: Warcraft's lore is continually evolving and being retconned, it's comic book lore, crowdsourced without a central and unique vision like a book series. Warcraft's lore evolves in relationship to the gameplay desired which includes the options they would want to give players.

    I'm not saying Devi has dark skin as a "gotcha" moment, and that dark skinned elves are a must because of it; I'm simply presenting it a possibility of something that could already be in lore and not need further explanation to be added.
    Sounds to me like Devi has set a precedent already, meaning dark skin Thalassian elves exist. Why the devs decided to only put fair skin and purple skin options for playable elves is baffling. Maybe some sort of personal bias?

  10. #11810
    asian thalassian :O

  11. #11811

    If Blizzard did end the faction divide, that may open High Elves to the Alliance

    DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT FOR OR AGAINST THE WHOLE HIGH ELF/ BLOOD ELF DEBOCLE THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR AGES THIS IS JUST AN OBSERVATION

    If we are to entertain the idea, that Blizzard does in fact end the faction split in the next expac, and a 3rd faction breaks off, or just both factions are merged somehow, I think this would finally give Blizzard the excuse needed to give the Alliance High Elves. I already know the argument that High Elves and Blood Elves are the same, even Blizzard has said themselves, they are basically the same. But by ending the faction split, they would finally have a valid reason to just let both factions have that race, and label them as High Elves for the Alliance.

    If another faction split did happen, Blood Elves would most likely be one of the major ones to stay with the Alliance seeing as Lor'themar and Jaina came to terms in Nazjatar this patch.

  12. #11812
    One of the more reasonable of those recent leaks had a bit about some/most allied races being baked in as customizations for existing core races.

    If true, I could see "Thalassian elf" being a thing, with blood, high, and void all as branching options.

    Only way I really see that happening though. I don't see them ever adding a third actual race with the same model.
    Xal'atath whispers: Your allies consider me a bad influence. Yet all I've ever done is speed you along the path you chose.

  13. #11813
    Nice touch with the disclaimer, I had my response all ready, but you disarmed me.

    And you're damn right I'm going to pay to faction change my blood elf to the Alliance like all the other suckers who want playable High Elves!

  14. #11814
    Pandaren Monk Melsiren's Avatar
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    Yep, the death of the factions pretty much ends the "HE delema"

    Been saying this since before BFA funny enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrashi View Post
    High elf fans are basically flat-earth society of warcraft lore.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Alleria Windrunner View Post
    I AM the victim.

  15. #11815
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralqadar View Post
    Yep, the death of the factions pretty much ends the "HE delema"

    Been saying this since before BFA funny enough.
    Kind of sucks the death of factions didn't come before Void Elves. Now we're stuck with them.
    Last edited by Kyphael; 2019-09-05 at 09:41 PM.

  16. #11816
    I am Murloc! Maljinwo's Avatar
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    They are already playable.
    Still, if they end the faction divide, Alliance or not wouldn't matter
    This world don't give us nothing. It be our lot to suffer... and our duty to fight back.

  17. #11817
    Pandaren Monk AngerFork's Avatar
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    Personally, the whole Q&A speech against having High Elves is one of the main reasons I've been thinking we're about to lose the faction divide, at least as far as playable races are concerned. Without the divide, the only thing really preventing full High Elves would just be the eye color, the starting zone, and the term "High Elf." None of these would be all that hard for Blizz to adjust should they wish...but if they were to put in High Elves and then lose the faction divide, then you have two races which in essence look nearly the exact same as playable options.

    Given the High Elf NPCs we've seen in Boralus, I almost wonder if High Elves were the initial plan for an Alliance Allied Race, but that the call was made a bit later to end this expansion with at least all races playable on both factions. That IMO would largely explain not just why we saw the High Elves get more of a role in Legion around Suramar and the High Elves we still see in Boralus, but it would also explain why Void Elves seem to have had no real story or existence anywhere pre-7.3. If this is the case, I then wonder if we were initially slated to get Krokul instead of the Army of the Light as we did or if the plan was always for the Lightforged to be there, but instead would act as two Light-based Alliance Allied Races to match alongside Anduin's Light-based faith.

  18. #11818
    For fuck's sake, pay attention to what's going on in the game.

    The factions aren't going anywhere. What is coming, however, is the option to switch sides. They're setting it up with the main storyline quests, and why do you think those quests show a little faction icon next to them? Do you really not know what faction you're in? Oh, wait, no, it's not because Blizzard thinks we're morons (well, they do, but not in this case), it's because they're getting you used to that so that when this change does come into effect, you'll know which faction your individual characters are in. That's literally the only functional point of including those icons. Zero other reason; if it was just to denote a story/legendary quest line, aaaaaaaany other icon would have worked just fine, it didn't need to be unique to each faction. Especially since it has nothing to do with your faction in and of itself, not with them swapping sides themselves (like Baine).

    Regardless, stop trying to spread this ignorant, unfounded bullshit. Factions aren't going anywhere. The game revolves around them way too much, from start to finish. Stripping them away would be a monumental task above and beyond what they did with Cataclysm. Letting you swap however, in a fashion not too dissimilar to Mercenary Mode, is pretty much already baked into the current game.

    So yeah, tough call which one is coming. ESPECIALLY SINCE THE GAME IS ALREADY SETTING UP FACTION CHANGES.

  19. #11819
    If the game gets rid of factions, what would be the point of introducing High Elves? Just add a blue eye option when creating Blood Elves and you're done.

  20. #11820
    The Insane Syegfryed's Avatar
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    if there is not alliance or horde it will not matter, always this same bullshit thread, there is one to discuss this matter already

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