1. #11841
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    They were the High elves. That is a part of their past, not the present.

    You are blinding yourself too much about this, you perfectly know what High elves we are talking about, and these ain't the Blood elves.


    I'm not here to give history lessons. Your claim about not being able to find 'anything' lacks meaning and importance. High elves nowadays (since before world of warcraft really, but nowadays) are not the Blood elves, they may be High elves, but they don't call themselves like that anymore and the group that stays in the Alliance still does. They are the High elves that are being talked about, bringing Blood elves in this manner does nothing but mud the conversation into a what is what that is not needed since the concepts are far from obscure. It's a clear matter that don't need such simple responses.

    Quel'thalas fell after the Scourge's attack, some people didn't wanted to do with their old land due to decisions their former people made and joining the horde didn't help either. They still call themselves High elves and they are Alliance, not Horde, and they are not Blood elves.


    Then why do you make such a drama about High elves being the same race as Blood elves?

    They are a different group that is not playable even playing the most similar thing out there, that is the whole point.
    Soooo you are not telling me anything, alright. Im done, they are the same race, period.

  2. #11842
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musta View Post
    Soooo you are not telling me anything, alright. Im done, they are the same race, period.
    I took the bother to explain from where the High elves that are the matter of the discussion came, even being common knowledge.

    I'm sorry if you believe that the only way it is plausible is through your own personal bias and invented set of check marks.

    This gate keeping is ridiculous.

  3. #11843
    You really think that the 2 factions will not be anymore? Is it because of the kinematics with Jaina and Thrall, who talk about making peace?

    I do not think that will happen with all the tragic moments that happened during BFA.

    Personally, I would never forgive the arsonist who burned my home or the killer who murdered my father ...

    And to come back to the High Elves, they are and have always been at war with the blood elves, it's even more so since the Dalaran purge and the BFA (military campaign) events. The Sunreaver want to get their revenge.

    And there is an interesting moment to note after the victory against Azshara, Lorthemar Theron said to Jaina: I will take my place alongside Saurcroc and Thrall, and pray for the Sin'dorei to support me.

    He knows that there will be a possible break with his own people in making this decision.

  4. #11844
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo Hawk View Post
    You are the one bringing up that they are the same race, not me.

    - - - Updated - - -


    They are not the same group.

    By your logic, Mag'har are the same race, as void elves or lightforged, or even humans. You know, Kul'tiran humans.

    High elves are not Blood elves, they are a different group with differences in their relationship with their former land, the Alliance is their home, and just as Void elves, they also want Silvermoon to become Alliance, is one of the props that were carried by Vereesa and now by Alleria and their Void elves.

    They dislike the horde, they don't want to return to Silvermoon while the horde banner is planted in Quel'thalas' soil.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Can you please have a bit of decency?

    We all know, even you, that the video portrays a specific point in time where they didn't used fel as a source of magic leaving Silvermoon with fel energies sinking into the bodies of the people in there.

    In fact, it's nothing more than a proof that they were very careful with the way the story was told and show back then, and has been carried to this day.

    If anyone feel any kind of snark from Musta's comment, I'm just gonna tell that it is nothing more than demagogy, not even saying or showing anything that is important to the discussion.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Alchemy.

    /10char

    Edit: Ok, I think I didn't made justice with your post.

    In one hand, we have that the world of warcraft has tons of non-scientific things that can't be found in the real world.

    But on the other hand, that is the way that it is, and a fantasy game having things that are not scientifically correct is not a bad thing. In fact, if it's done right, it helps to build interesting concepts that give credibility to such fantasy world.

    Unless you are referring to a political view on the concepts that are portrayed in the game, in which I don't even want to talk about. This is a whole subject by itself, I suggest to open a thread about it in the place this forum allows for it (which I think it exists, I have seen political threads in this website).
    You said they were different "species"! that's absurd they are the same race !!! Blizzard said it is the same breed! but they have different political positions !!!! for example there were Spaniards who were on the side of the allies during the second war! and there were Spaniards who fought on the axis side! That made those Spaniards who wanted Spain to be freed from the facist regime were not Spanish? or that those who fought on the eastern front on the side of the Germans were not Spanish?

    They were all Spaniards and everyone has their own ideals and their own desires as to what the Spanish government should be. They did not want to found a new country, they wanted to return to Spain.
    Thalassians living in the alliance territories want to return to quelthalas and change sides.

    they are the same race they aim to return to the same country and live with the same people who live in that country just want a regime change.

  5. #11845
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    This argument seems increasingly semantic and pedantic. The High Elven exiles and the Blood Elves are the same species, and as "race" is an entirely social construct it's not really applicable in the real-world sense. In the WoW sense of "race," which is actually a taxonomy that doesn't concern itself with socialization and actually defines artificial barriers concerning playability and manner of playability, they are indeed a different "race" - in that the Blood Elves are a playable Horde "race" and the High Elven exiles are currently not a playable "race" and if they were they would likely be an Alliance one. So let's keep our terms distinct and not draw from real-world parallels are that inapplicable on both the level of the game systems themselves, as well as the fantastical situation as described in the narrative.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  6. #11846
    I am Murloc! FlubberPuddy's Avatar
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    Aucald puts it best.

    WoW “races” are different from how we handle the term IRL.

    In WoW, a Lightforged Draenei is a different “race” from the Draenei, despite both being Draenei.

    A Highmountain Tauren is a different “race” from the Tauren despite both being Tauren.

    In these examples, both “races” still call themselves as Draenei and Tauren respectively.

    Blood Elves in WoW do not call themselves “High Elves” and the “race” is only playable as a Horde member.

    On the flip side, High Elves still refer to themselves as High Elves and are not playable. And are seen much more often as members of the Alliance or among the Alliance races.

    Aucald put it well.

    I’ll put it another way: let’s not start playing stupid, everyone that spends even a modicum of time within this conversation can quickly see that the High Elves being asked for are an unplayable race of Alliance members.

    Saying that people just want “a blood elf on the Alliance” is frankly dumb because Void Elves are exactly that, they have all Blood Elf history up to end of TBC till their exile by Rommath or whoever.

    High Elves in the Alliance left the nation of Silvermoon before TBC even began. They have less shared history with the Blood Elves than the Void Elves do.

    Also the recent talk about the new banner and how some suggest it could be a wild hammer race along with dragonmaw for AR shows the hypocrisy some have against Elven races and not the excuse of “we just got X race type, let’s get more unique ones”.

    The thing about the High Elf request is people are lumping in their other agendas (as in no more elf races) into it and that’s why people are getting so uppity over the request imo.

    If you’re not going to get enraged that a wild hammer or dragonmaw orc allied race would come next then you’re just being hypocritical when it comes to the high elf request.

    Especially since there’s no bigger allied race request than this one.

  7. #11847
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhlor View Post
    You said they were different "species"that's absurd they are the same race !!!
    If this is some kind of joke I'll just say that I don't want to be part of it anymore.

    You first came out of nowhere with the race lie, and now with that I called them different species.

    You are not even saying the truth.

    As @Aucald said, this argument is super pedantic and unnecessary.

    Race in wow means a specific group of such 'race'.

    Orcs, Mag'har orcs. Humans, Kul'tiran. Etc...

  8. #11848
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    This argument seems increasingly semantic and pedantic. The High Elven exiles and the Blood Elves are the same species, and as "race" is an entirely social construct it's not really applicable in the real-world sense. In the WoW sense of "race," which is actually a taxonomy that doesn't concern itself with socialization and actually defines artificial barriers concerning playability and manner of playability, they are indeed a different "race" - in that the Blood Elves are a playable Horde "race" and the High Elven exiles are currently not a playable "race" and if they were they would likely be an Alliance one. So let's keep our terms distinct and not draw from real-world parallels are that inapplicable on both the level of the game systems themselves, as well as the fantastical situation as described in the narrative.
    This is, of course, incorrect, insofar as your conclusions are that the High Elven exiles would be a different race to the Blood Elves in gameplay terms based solely on their allegiance to that Alliance. The reason that this is incorrect, is that it relies upon a factor explicitly ruled out as being a differentiator, political allegiance.
    Even the Pandaren, with whom a flawed equivalence is drawn with the High Elves, are treated as the same race yet whose members make a different choice at a particularly critical moment in their storyline.

    The High Elven exiles are not a distinct race. They are a political faction of an existing playable race. Furthermore, real world parallels can be drawn with this situation (and indeed other fantastical situations within WoW) and attempting to say parallels cannot be drawn seems to be arbitrary, particularly given divisions in fiction and in real life are underpinned by similar factors (unsurprising as the fiction would have been informed by real world events).
    I would propose that the real world situation that most reflects that of the Thalassian Elves is the nation of Cuba, who would be analogous to the Blood Elves, and the exile community who are political opposed to the current status of their homeland. Both groups are fully Cuban of course.

    Blood Elves and High Elves are the same race. High Elves are therefore playable. The minor variation in lore between a Blood Elf and a High Elf exile does not invalidate that.

  9. #11849
    Quote Originally Posted by Fossil-Free View Post
    WoW (and really all games) need to move away from the pseudoscience of "race" in their descriptive terminology. "Race" doesn't exist, there are only clines. It's really no different from believing in a flat earth, "four humors," phrenology, "the great chain of being," catastrophism, etc.

    Species and culture are the only two things that have any validity. And culture's validity is pretty shaky from a behavioral ecology standpoint.
    Quote Originally Posted by Villager720 View Post
    Race exists as a social construct - just like laws and justice.
    Nonsense. I honestly can't tell if it's sarcasm or you actually believe that.

  10. #11850
    Quote Originally Posted by FlubberPuddy View Post
    Aucald puts it best.

    WoW “races” are different from how we handle the term IRL.

    In WoW, a Lightforged Draenei is a different “race” from the Draenei, despite both being Draenei.

    A Highmountain Tauren is a different “race” from the Tauren despite both being Tauren.

    In these examples, both “races” still call themselves as Draenei and Tauren respectively.

    Blood Elves in WoW do not call themselves “High Elves” and the “race” is only playable as a Horde member.

    On the flip side, High Elves still refer to themselves as High Elves and are not playable. And are seen much more often as members of the Alliance or among the Alliance races.

    Aucald put it well.

    I’ll put it another way: let’s not start playing stupid, everyone that spends even a modicum of time within this conversation can quickly see that the High Elves being asked for are an unplayable race of Alliance members.

    Saying that people just want “a blood elf on the Alliance” is frankly dumb because Void Elves are exactly that, they have all Blood Elf history up to end of TBC till their exile by Rommath or whoever.

    High Elves in the Alliance left the nation of Silvermoon before TBC even began. They have less shared history with the Blood Elves than the Void Elves do.

    Also the recent talk about the new banner and how some suggest it could be a wild hammer race along with dragonmaw for AR shows the hypocrisy some have against Elven races and not the excuse of “we just got X race type, let’s get more unique ones”.

    The thing about the High Elf request is people are lumping in their other agendas (as in no more elf races) into it and that’s why people are getting so uppity over the request imo.

    If you’re not going to get enraged that a wild hammer or dragonmaw orc allied race would come next then you’re just being hypocritical when it comes to the high elf request.

    Especially since there’s no bigger allied race request than this one.
    This, thank you.

  11. #11851
    Quote Originally Posted by Heartbreaker View Post
    Nonsense. I honestly can't tell if it's sarcasm or you actually believe that.
    It's science, and it's not my fault you haven't learned how variation works. Try taking a class or two, you might learn something.

  12. #11852
    Quote Originally Posted by Fossil-Free View Post
    It's science, and it's not my fault you haven't learned how variation works. Try taking a class or two, you might learn something.
    More nonsense. People in different regions have evolved differently, that is why they look different and can be distinguished from other races. What they look like, whether it's height, skin color or facial features like eye shape etc. is all in their DNA. It is biological. It couldn't be any other way. You can't make people look the same. "Social construct" is just another way of saying "it's only in our heads". No.

  13. #11853
    Quote Originally Posted by Fossil-Free View Post
    It's science, and it's not my fault you haven't learned how variation works. Try taking a class or two, you might learn something.
    I wouldn't be rude, if you were not. But please, don't make fun of yourself. What you said is actually greatly embarassing.

  14. #11854
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    This is, of course, incorrect, insofar as your conclusions are that the High Elven exiles would be a different race to the Blood Elves in gameplay terms based solely on their allegiance to that Alliance. The reason that this is incorrect, is that it relies upon a factor explicitly ruled out as being a differentiator, political allegiance.
    Even the Pandaren, with whom a flawed equivalence is drawn with the High Elves, are treated as the same race yet whose members make a different choice at a particularly critical moment in their storyline.

    The High Elven exiles are not a distinct race. They are a political faction of an existing playable race. Furthermore, real world parallels can be drawn with this situation (and indeed other fantastical situations within WoW) and attempting to say parallels cannot be drawn seems to be arbitrary, particularly given divisions in fiction and in real life are underpinned by similar factors (unsurprising as the fiction would have been informed by real world events).
    I would propose that the real world situation that most reflects that of the Thalassian Elves is the nation of Cuba, who would be analogous to the Blood Elves, and the exile community who are political opposed to the current status of their homeland. Both groups are fully Cuban of course.

    Blood Elves and High Elves are the same race. High Elves are therefore playable. The minor variation in lore between a Blood Elf and a High Elf exile does not invalidate that.
    Draw your arbitrary lines wherever you wish - I'm not speaking to the debate as to whether or not the High Elven exiles are included with the Blood Elves or not included, I'm just delineating the difference between "race" as a real-world social construct, "race" as a gameplay construct in WoW, and the idea of species in general. As long as people understand the terms and use them properly a debate can actually be had. The rest of it is just people talking past one another about different ideas using terms that aren't clear or agreed upon.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #11855
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musta View Post
    They are the SAME RACE, KAEL'THAS CHANGED THEIR NAME!
    So are Kul'Tiras humans and Stormwind humans.

    Plus there are lore basis for build/posture differences between high elves and blood elves, chief among those are the myriad of possible ways the high elves could have done to dealt with the effects of magic withdrawal, as they refused to follow Kael'Thas teachings, while the blood elves embraced said teachings, draining mana from living beings, and the fact they were not affected by fel magic like the citizens of Silvermoon.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
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  16. #11856
    Quote Originally Posted by lachlol View Post
    I wouldn't be rude, if you were not. But please, don't make fun of yourself. What you said is actually greatly embarassing.
    You should be embarrassed by your ignorance of how to spell the word embarrassing.

  17. #11857
    Ill say my last bit on the HE topic. A plot hole. Cuz i wanna know. WHen the split occurs and some HEs go to the alliance, why did they not suffer from magic addiction? they were way too far from the sunwell and after that it got blow up, but none of the alliance's HEs were affected. Why? Wheres the explanation?

  18. #11858
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Draw your arbitrary lines wherever you wish - I'm not speaking to the debate as to whether or not the High Elven exiles are included with the Blood Elves or not included, I'm just delineating the difference between "race" as a real-world social construct, "race" as a gameplay construct in WoW, and the idea of species in general. As long as people understand the terms and use them properly a debate can actually be had. The rest of it is just people talking past one another about different ideas using terms that aren't clear or agreed upon.
    My lines are not arbitrary. Stating they are arbitrary implies I settled upon them myself. The lines were defined by Blizzard developers i.e. the people who have the right to define them. Within WoW, race in gameplay terms means groups that are biologically identical of whom one example is enough to count that particular race as playable. In order for another version of that race to be playable it has to be precisely that, another version, a genuine variant.

    High Elf exiles are not a separate race. They are not separate if we use real world parallels. They are not separate if we use lore based definitions. They are not separate if we use gameplay definitions. In fact, the entire discussion of race in this topic is entirely pointless, as we are not discussing separate races but differing factions of the same race. The reason WHY race has been drawn into this topic is that some, in pursuit of their goal, wish to pretend that the High Elf exiles ARE a separate race. As they are not, it is relatively easy to disprove this stance, but it is a persistent article of faith for some.

  19. #11859
    Bloodsail Admiral Aldo Hawk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musta View Post
    Ill say my last bit on the HE topic. A plot hole. Cuz i wanna know. WHen the split occurs and some HEs go to the alliance, why did they not suffer from magic addiction? they were way too far from the sunwell and after that it got blow up, but none of the alliance's HEs were affected. Why? Wheres the explanation?
    They did, where did you got this information? They did as the rest of their people...

    There is no explanation possible since the Sunwell has unlimited range, and there is no need for an explanation since what you said was never the case.

    I don't know if you have genuine interest on the topic. Feels like you just don't like it so you treat it the harshest way you can come up with and try to call it a day.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk Kai View Post
    My lines are not arbitrary.
    They are, you invented them thinking that what's in the selection screen is some kind of pattern that conveniently fits with your bias.

    Except there are Kul'tiran humans. Humans, with a different model, but humans. And uncorrupted orcs. And lightbound Draenei. And nature blessed Tauren. And void infused Blood elves...

    Blizzard never said: 'Within WoW, race in gameplay terms means groups that are biologically identical of whom one example is enough to count that particular race as playable. In order for another version of that race to be playable it has to be precisely that, another version, a genuine variant.'

    High elves have differences from Blood elves. Fel radiation modified the Blood elves and both of them had different lives involving different magics and different ways of dealing with the addiction. That changes the elves a lot in warcraft, and this was not so drastic, but enough to show differences that can be perfectly further explored in some sort of retroactive revisit of how the High elves look without fel taint in game and adding visual characteristics that denote belonging to a group of exiles that found their way once again long ago into the Alliance.

    Again, they are not a carbon copy, Pandaren are.

    The desire for it to stay underdeveloped is unjustifiable. Before TbC, they had a remodel of Night elves. Thalassians were crafted to be playable on the Horde, whilst the Alliance population being not playable and not showing much until later expansions, simply getting minor features according to lore. Who said that it cannot be developed and that it has to be maintained in the current status of NPCs?

  20. #11860
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musta View Post
    Ill say my last bit on the HE topic. A plot hole. Cuz i wanna know. WHen the split occurs and some HEs go to the alliance, why did they not suffer from magic addiction? they were way too far from the sunwell and after that it got blow up, but none of the alliance's HEs were affected. Why? Wheres the explanation?
    This question, this "plot hole" of yours, demonstrates how little you know about the high elves. No one is saying that they did not suffer from magic addiction. Worse: the high elves suffered more from the symptoms of withdrawal because they refused to follow Kael'Thas orders to drain mana from living beings to sate their addiction.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

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