Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Broflake]

I really think sooner or later they will add them to the game. Maybe with the factions being at peace, they can rebuild Silvermoon together and let the High Elves return.

The high elves are allowed to return. Alleria was in Silvermoon during the Nightborne recruitment quest.

[Moody Blue]

The high elves are allowed to return. Alleria was in Silvermoon during the Nightborne recruitment quest.

All the better.

[Ielenia]

I would have to respectfully disagree with you here Aldo. The blood elf people are high elves, they simply renamed themselves. It is through them that you experience the high elf storyline. Their crushing defeat at the hands of Arthas and their rebirth as blood elves. To suggest they are not playable is a disingenuous argument.

It's not a disingenuous argument. It's a statement of fact. The group of high elves that refused to follow Arthas' teachings, that refused to be 'mana vampires' as they called it, the group that did not join the Horde, that followed a different path than the blood elves, had to find different ways to deal with the pains of withdrawal after their connection to the Sunwell was severed and had to adapt their culture and lifestyle to survive after being banished from their homeland is not playable.1

High elves are Blood elves. The elves calling themselves high elves are those who refused to follow the rest of their people with the name change. At a fundamental level, they are still the same race.

So are Kul'tiran and Stormwind humans. Seems to me you're taking the concept of "playable race" and applying it the same definition as the word "race". No, a playable race is not a "race", but a particular group of said race. When you create a troll character, you're playing as a Darkspear troll. Not as a Gurubashi troll, not an Amani troll, not a Zandalari troll. When you make a human, you're playing as a Stormwind human. Not as a Lordaeron human, not as an Arathi human, not as a Gilneas human. Dwarves? You're an Ironforge dwarf. Etc, etc. Which is why saying "high elves and blood elves are the same race" is not a very useful argument.

[bdlovelace]

So are Kul'tiran and Stormwind humans. Seems to me you're taking the concept of "playable race" and applying it the same definition as the word "race". No, a playable race is not a "race", but a particular group of said race. When you create a troll character, you're playing as a Darkspear troll. Not as a Gurubashi troll, not an Amani troll, not a Zandalari troll. When you make a human, you're playing as a Stormwind human. Not as a Lordaeron human, not as an Arathi human, not as a Gilneas human. Dwarves? You're an Ironforge dwarf. Etc, etc. Which is why saying "high elves and blood elves are the same race" is not a very useful argument.

youre trying to separate high/blood elves by comparing them to kul tiran and stormwind humans who have different ethnic backgrounds and geographical origins. a more accurate and honest comparison would be if 1% of the SW population left because they thought the water tasted funny one day and moved to dalaran.

high/blood elves are the exact same identical people with the only difference being the adjective they identify as. in this case all high elves come from quel'thalas and the blood elves fulfill the high elf fantasy, that literally a few left and serve as the occasional portal keeper has no bearing on anything

[Ielenia]

youre trying to separate high/blood elves by comparing them to kul tiran and stormwind humans who have different ethnic backgrounds and geographical origins. a more accurate and honest comparison would be if 1% of the SW population left because they thought the water tasted funny one day and moved to dalaran.

high/blood elves are the exact same identical people with the only difference being the adjective they identify as. in this case all high elves come from quel'thalas and the blood elves fulfill the high elf fantasy, that literally a few left and serve as the occasional portal keeper has no bearing on anything

High elves and blood elves are only as "identical" as Blizzard decides them to be. Remember that, in vanilla WoW, blood elves and high elves had the exact same build as night elves, only with lighter skin. It wasn't until TBC came along and made blood elves playable that the Thalassian race got a model of their own.

Kul'tiran humans had the exact same build and skin color as Stormwind humans throughout the entire game, until BfA came along to make them playable. My point is that if Blizzard decides to make high elves playable, they will make them distinct. More than enough lore currently exists that could be used for that, and even more could be created.

[bdlovelace]

Kul'tiran humans had the exact same build and skin color as Stormwind humans throughout the entire game, until BfA.

again stormwind humans come from stormwind. kultirans come from kul tiras. we saw a few kul tirans before BFA. when we actually go to kul tiras it turns out theres a few different flavors. high/blood elves come from the same place, quel'thalas. theres no lore reason any physical changes made to alliance high elves couldnt also be applied to blood elves. void elves are what you are in fact proposing, a model made distinct from the blood elves for the alliance. but what you want is the exact blood elf fantasy to be given to the alliance

kul tirans are also on the same faction. youd have a better chance of asking for a blue eyed high elf AR for the horde. but then wouldnt golden eyed blood elves have to become a new AR as well? see how logical this request sounds now?

[Broflake]

It's not a disingenuous argument. It's a statement of fact. The group of high elves that refused to follow AKael'thas' teachings, that refused to be 'mana vampires' as they called it, the group that did not join the Horde, that followed a different path than the blood elves, had to find different ways to deal with the pains of withdrawal after their connection to the Sunwell was severed and had to adapt their culture and lifestyle to survive after being banished from their homeland is not playable.

A few corrections before I proceed. I corrected the name since it wasn't Arthas it was Kael'thas.
Secondly, the only high elves that exist, are those who simply did not go home. The high elves who did not wish to be mana vampires were the Quel'lithien elves, and they were the only exiled group of high elves.
All the other high elves used magical crystals to feed their mana addiction. There is no suggestion of a different lifestyle/culture.
The argument is disingenuous because it is an attempt to create a difference which is purely political in its creation. The difference between high elf and blood elf is political. This does not make them different people in terms of race/lifestyle/culture. It is the equivalent of you and I having a disagreement.
This is the same as the fogsail and alterac humans. They did not go inline with the actions of stormwind/kul tiras humans, but they are still humans, they are only politically difference.
This is why the argument is disingenuous, because it attempts to suggest there are differences which are not supported by lore.

So are Kul'tiran and Stormwind humans. Seems to me you're taking the concept of "playable race" and applying it the same definition as the word "race". No, a playable race is not a "race", but a particular group of said race. When you create a troll character, you're playing as a Darkspear troll. Not as a Gurubashi troll, not an Amani troll, not a Zandalari troll. When you make a human, you're playing as a Stormwind human. Not as a Lordaeron human, not as an Arathi human, not as a Gilneas human. Dwarves? You're an Ironforge dwarf. Etc, etc. Which is why saying "high elves and blood elves are the same race" is not a very useful argument.

There are a few flaws with this argument you are presenting.
Firstly, blood elves and high elves come from the same nation. Quel'Thalas. They are all also from the same generation. All the sub-groups you have mentioned are different both in terms of their geographical origination, as well as their culture and life styles. This is very different from every single example you have provided as no other group has the same situation. This is not a case of a group of elves developing completely separate from their own race of thalassian elves.

Secondly, core races are indeed meant to represent the race as a whole. This is why Amani trolls will never become playable. The darkspear are meant to represent this troll race. Same for every other core race. Now at this point, one would say, well what about the allied races? What do they represent and what do they mean?

Allied races purposes is literally only to expand upon the already existing looks of that race. This is supported by the ask the dev statements.
The kul tiran model is NOT exclusive to humans, and is to be used for everyone. This is why we see skinny humans across every single nation.

Now...then someone goes...void elves and nightborne?
Both void elves and nightborne were changed significantly to be their own races. They are an exception to Blizzards existing rule purely for the racial exchange.

There is also a game design issue at hand. If you are playing a race which already exists, and the allied race has the same aesthetics/origins/biology, they are kept on their core faction.


This is why high elves are so controversial compared to other AR suggestions. They completely ignore the context of every single existing allied race, and they also present design issues given the implementation of void elves who prevent the existence of high elves ever being playable.

[Broflake]

I did a big long post but I think it got eaten =(
Lovelace addressed it for me previously.
I will also add the following.

Kul tirans and SW humans are not any different per Blizzard. The KT models also apply to all humans and will be used in th efuture for humans as well. Indeed, they even recognize if the biology is the same, then they stay on the same faction.

High elves and blood elves are only as "identical" as Blizzard decides them to be. Remember that, in vanilla WoW, blood elves and high elves had the exact same build as night elves, only with lighter skin. It wasn't until TBC came along and made blood elves playable that the Thalassian race got a model of their own.

Blizzard decided they were the same people and identical way back in WC and onwards. If we use this argument, then it goes back to what I said earlier. The lore doesn't matter.

[Alixie]

The high elves are allowed to return. Alleria was in Silvermoon during the Nightborne recruitment quest.

They're only allowed to visit the Sunwell under heavy guard. IIR, Lorthemar says Alleria, who is a special case, was allowed to make a pilgrimage, not loiter around the city unattended.

A shower thought on unification and the Sunwell.

I doubt cross fraction mingling of blood and high elves will happen. Peace is one thing, but its unlikely that either party wants to bury the hatchet. Blood Elves participating in their own "Undead warlord destroys elf city and wipes out most of their population" campaign, probably soured their opinions on their cousins worse than ever. And the previous patch showed that a number of Blood Elves are still pissy about "muh Purge" years later.

There is also the fact that the Night Elves and Zandalari who are still fresh with anger about the opposing fraction, enough to barely participate in the final siege. I DO believe that there will be a fraction split with the Forsaken. They showed that there are still Forsaken who want to stay loyal to Sylvanas/Horde, and Forsaken who want to leave with Calia for a new life. Another "same race but different fraction" situation.

I think the High Elves as secular/non practicing in a way that they no longer worship the Sunwell like the Blood Elves. They make pilgrimages out of respect for the memory of what was lost, but its clearly in the past for them. In the Shadow of the Sun, Lorthemar monologued that while the High Elves were resentful of him exiling them and leaving them to be attacked by Sylvanas's minions, they should still be grateful that they got a new Sunwell as a consolation prize.

What would be interesting is if the High Elves made it crystal clear that they do NOT worship or care about the Sunwell anymore. They've had years to wean themselves off the Sunwell - some like the Highvale ditched magic all together - they might not want to go back to that addiction and lifestyle. They can chose to "stay vegan" even when holy hamburgers are back on the menu. Its a good way to both sever the High Elves connection to the Sunwell, and have them move on from the past that the Blood Elves want to stay in.

[bdlovelace]

I doubt cross fraction mingling of blood and high elves will happen.

they already mingle in dalaran. auric sunchaser resides as a high elf representative on quel'danas. vereesa continued to work with the farstriders and halduron in legion. and the purge is blamed solely on jaina. and with the faction war being put on the back burner there isnt even a hatchet to bury. its all about being for azeroth now

[matrix123mko]

With Sylvanas out and Horde officially dismantled blood elves can get blue eyes customisation options.

[Gurluas]

i have read the thread. and i find kai the most convincing and honest. most pros want the blood elf fantasy copy pasted to the alliance. pretty much every change proposed has been a blood elf combing their hair different and smearing on war paint. hairstyle is not distinct enough. a political opinion isnt either. you could scrap the portal keeper and the island expedition team memebr in boralus and 99% of the alliance wouldnt notice or care. thats how much of a role they play in the alliance story



how? dark iron dwarves appear in the war campaign and for assaults. you know who doesnt? these elusive, almost mythic, alliance high elves. not a single one appears in the war campaign

Kai is delusional and blatantly ignores any arguments that doesn't go with his agenda. Most pros disagree with the Blizzard statement but acknowledge it and try to find a compromise or solution, and it's because High elves have indeed been proven to be different from Blood elves in almost every appearance they've had since TBC.

Thematically yes they are the Alliance Blood elves...with different morals, a different backstory, and different beliefs.
And if Skincolor and different hairstyles isn't enough, then what about the Mag'har and the Dark Iron? They're literally different skin colored Dwarves/Orcs with different hairstyles.

I did however go a step further and suggests arcane crystalline elves or leafy plant elves.
If the faction wall is torn down and reunification happens though...It'd be a good way to get High elves in I'll admit.

[Ielenia]

again stormwind humans come from stormwind. kultirans come from kul tiras. we saw a few kul tirans before BFA. when we actually go to kul tiras it turns out theres a few different flavors. high/blood elves come from the same place, quel'thalas. theres no lore reason any physical changes made to alliance high elves couldnt also be applied to blood elves. void elves are what you are in fact proposing, a model made distinct from the blood elves for the alliance. but what you want is the exact blood elf fantasy to be given to the alliance

Kul'tiras haven't existed long enough for speciation to occur. Kul'tiras humans are still humans. As for lore, yes, there are. High elves did not depend on "mana vampirism" to deal with their withdrawal pains. So, Blizzard could use the idea that they trained their bodies to withstand the physical pains of their addiction. On top of that, one of the side effects of fel magic is that it weakens the body, and considering blood elves simply could not be warriors when TBC came along, it supports my hypothesis.

kul tirans are also on the same faction. youd have a better chance of asking for a blue eyed high elf AR for the horde.

You wouldn't be saying that if you cared even just a little about the lore. Also, wouldn't that logic mean nightborne should've been in the Alliance?

but then wouldnt golden eyed blood elves have to become a new AR as well? see how logical this request sounds now?

The only lack of logic comes from you. High elves have different political and cultural views than the blood elves. High elves hate the blood elves. High elves had to find different ways to deal with the consequences of their severed connection to the Sunwell.

[Alixie]

they already mingle in dalaran. auric sunchaser resides as a high elf representative on quel'danas. vereesa continued to work with the farstriders and halduron in legion. and the purge is blamed solely on jaina. and with the faction war being put on the back burner there isnt even a hatchet to bury. its all about being for azeroth now

Elves are notorious for having grudges, and Halduron was one of the few Blood Elves who wanted to work with the traitorous High Elves. Lorthemar's arm had to be bent to allow Halduron to take some Farstriders to help the Alliance with the troll problem. In the Nightborne recruitment scenario, he divisively declines Alleria's proposition to rejoin the Alliance before she even asks. He throws in a petty insult about Anduin too. In the two sisters, Alleria gets the same reaction from Sylvanas when she brings up the possibly of the Blood Elves rejoining the Alliance. Then there is Lidrian who took her Blood Knights and left the Silver Hand, distancing herself from the Alliance even more. The Belf leadership has made it recently clear that they do not support the idea of going back to the Alliance in anyway.

Now throw on the fresh wounds post BFA with the other races. Nobody, particularly on the Alliance has a good reason to want to join the Horde or see them walking in their cities. Not while Teldrassil is still smoldering, and Darkshore is still infested with Blight and Horde troops. The only race that seems likely to split because of political differences are the Forsaken.

[CottonCandyCastro]

Elves are notorious for having grudges, and Halduron was one of the few Blood Elves who wanted to work with the traitorous High Elves. Lorthemar's arm had to be bent to allow Halduron to take some Farstriders to help the Alliance with the troll problem. In the Nightborne recruitment scenario, he divisively declines Alleria's proposition to rejoin the Alliance before she even asks. He throws in a petty insult about Anduin too.

Lor'themar also makes a big deal about how he wouldn't deny her a visit to the Sunwell because blah blah blah birthright blah Silvermoon. Which doesn't seem like something a rabid helf hating bigot would do to me, fam.

It sounds more like someone who just doesn't like the Alliance. Can you blame him?

[Rootsbum]

As long as KT humans is its own race, I dont see a issue with High Elfs.
KT humans are basically fat humans with another culture.
They also have skinny/normal models, so why cant we have new HEs as well? The unplayable ones would be the ones ingame.

A new model for High Elfs with a body-type/style reflecting the culture they have had since drifting from the the BE.

[FlubberPuddy]

Lor'themar also makes a big deal about how he wouldn't deny her a visit to the Sunwell because blah blah blah birthright blah Silvermoon. Which doesn't seem like something a rabid helf hating bigot would do to me, fam.

It sounds more like someone who just doesn't like the Alliance. Can you blame him?

Then immediately attempts to have her in chains, just because a Void being (which Alleria wasn't working with) decided to show up, and when Alleria HELPED THEM get rid of that Void entity.

I think it's safe to say Lor'themar is prime example of a wishy-washy person in all that's happened, including BfA.

- - - Updated - - -

If the faction wall is torn down and reunification happens though...It'd be a good way to get High elves in I'll admit.

Pretty much how I see it too. Remains to be seen though.

- - - Updated - - -

they already mingle in dalaran. auric sunchaser resides as a high elf representative on quel'danas. vereesa continued to work with the farstriders and halduron in legion. and the purge is blamed solely on jaina. and with the faction war being put on the back burner there isnt even a hatchet to bury. its all about being for azeroth now

And Vereesa would like Blood Elves to come back to the Alliance so I guess there's that going for mingling too

[CottonCandyCastro]

Then immediately attempts to have her in chains, just because a Void being (which Alleria wasn't working with) decided to show up, and when Alleria HELPED THEM get rid of that Void entity.

If your presence creates a situation where an entire race is put at risk because of your pacts with the forces of evil, you don't really get to act shocked if said race tells you to sling your hook.

[Broflake]

They're only allowed to visit the Sunwell under heavy guard. IIR, Lorthemar says Alleria, who is a special case, was allowed to make a pilgrimage, not loiter around the city unattended.

This is false, the sunwell is under heavy guard because it is the sunwell, not because of the high elves. Why would they need to defend it from the high elves who are just as dependent upon its existence? Lor'themar makes it lear that as they are children of quel'thalas, they would never be denied the ability to see it,. which included Alleria who despote being transformed into a void elf, was allowed to visit.
In fact, it is only after the matter of the sunwell being threatened by the void in which he states "you can no longer call silvermoon your home.".

I doubt cross fraction mingling of blood and high elves will happen. Peace is one thing, but its unlikely that either party wants to bury the hatchet. Blood Elves participating in their own "Undead warlord destroys elf city and wipes out most of their population" campaign, probably soured their opinions on their cousins worse than ever. And the previous patch showed that a number of Blood Elves are still pissy about "muh Purge" years later.

And if you play the quest, they are pissy towards Jaina Proudmoore, and not their high elf kin.

I think the High Elves as secular/non practicing in a way that they no longer worship the Sunwell like the Blood Elves. They make pilgrimages out of respect for the memory of what was lost, but its clearly in the past for them. In the Shadow of the Sun, Lorthemar monologued that while the High Elves were resentful of him exiling them and leaving them to be attacked by Sylvanas's minions, they should still be grateful that they got a new Sunwell as a consolation prize.

You mean...despite the fact they clearly worship and find the sunwell holy as seen in the Quel'delar sword quest and Alleria desiring to see it once more because she has missed it for such a long period of time?
Lor'themar also does not like their reliance on the sunwell, and he does not state they should be grateful. The entire thing is him being remorseful for his actions of exiling the quel'lithien high elves and wishing to help them and make amends.

What would be interesting is if the High Elves made it crystal clear that they do NOT worship or care about the Sunwell anymore. They've had years to wean themselves off the Sunwell - some like the Highvale ditched magic all together - they might not want to go back to that addiction and lifestyle. They can chose to "stay vegan" even when holy hamburgers are back on the menu. Its a good way to both sever the High Elves connection to the Sunwell, and have them move on from the past that the Blood Elves want to stay in.

All thalassian elves, blood and high elves are connected to the sunwellthroughout space and time. So no...they are not weaned off of anything. The moment the sunwell disappears again they wil have the same situation in TBC.

[Ielenia]

Same then can be said of Blood Elves and the Elves you are requesting.. especially considering they're not doing anything to propagate any sort of physical distinction between the two that then wouldn't be able to be applied to Blood Elves.

So what? Blizzard didn't do anything to propagate any sort of physical distinction between Kul'Tiras humans and Stormwind humans until BfA.

So in essence what is being requested is the Blood Elf model, just on the Alliance..

Nope. Wrong. Try again.

which is highly unlikely to happen and a very specific dev; who's name need not be mentioned, has already weighed in on that thought.

And? Are you saying they are incapable of changing their minds?