Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

There is one Pandaren people, yes - and in the ethnological sense, there is one Pandaren race. But in the gameplay sense there are three Pandaren "races": the Horde-aligned Houjin, the Alliance-aligned Tushui, and the non-playable and neutral mainland Pandaren. Again, referring to the original substance of my original and recent post, what truly defines a "race" in the gameplay sense is their game mechanics and faction, not ethnological difference. Lightforged Draenei aren't their own people, after all, they're part of the Draenei race. Kul Tiran Humans similarly aren't a different species from a Stormwindian or Lordaeronian Human - they've got some physical distinctiveness, but not enough to change their effective genotype (and both the regular Humans and Kul Turan Humans are offshoots of their Vrykul progenitors). The High Elven exiles aren't a different species from the Blood Elves, and they're of the same ethnic extraction as well, but in gameplay terms they are a different "race" in the same way the Lightforged Draenei are separate from the original Draenei in the game systems.

The conflation of race and faction here is what is confusing matters. There are three distinct political factions based on their political alignment, one horde, one alliance, and the overwhelming majority who are neutral. I would point out that in terms of gameplay, there is only a single Pandaren race option with the choice of faction being made after the choice of race.

I have to say, the Lightforged Draenei are an odd hill to argue from and a poor comparison with high exiles when the Void Elves are a far more appropriate match. Both consist of individuals who were previously bog standard members of their race transformed by outside powers into something unique, and thus were differentiated along ethnic lines and justified their position as Allied races. A lightforged draenei in other words, is as distinct from an ordinary Draenei as a Void Elf is from a Blood/High Elf. Were they as close to Draenei as High Elf exiles were, they'd simply be bog-standard Draenei who had been on their spaceship for a couple of millenia and they would almost certainly not be an Allied race.

And of course the fans aren't inerrant - if that were the case we wouldn't even be having this debate, that was never a claim made to my knowledge. The fact that the developers aren't inerrant isn't a personal or subjective one - it's a patent statement of fact, we *know* they've been wrong before. They've admitted to being wrong many times. They'll be wrong again in the future, no doubt. This isn't a "your side/my side" distinction, it's just a fact of the matter like water rolling downhill. They can and have been wrong, their word or opinion on a given matter isn't the end-all or be-all of a given debate, especially in the sense of the dialectic.

This discussion is a critical exegesis on the matter of the truth of opinions - it does not, as I see it, have an objective right or wrong answer that any authority or person can provide. I'm not right in my position, and neither are you, no one is - we're just two parties with opinions on the matter in a sea of other opinions that may or may not agree with ours in whole or in part. Part of the problem of this thread has been parties trying to ram their opinion into fact, which of course parties who disagree are going to take issue with, and which will inspire some of those other parties to try to ram their own opposing positions into fact. Treating this debate as objective is wrongheaded, in my view. Subconsciously adding "in my opinion" to the end of every other sentence you read here would probably help a lot of participants.

As for the quantity and degree of specific differences in the High Elven exiles and the Blood Elves, that is a largely subjective conclusion - and it hinges wildly on the emphasis you place on certain elements. I would say one's choice of Azerothian faction/political affiliation in the Warcraft universe is a huge factor that cannot be understated - but that is my own opinion, to which others may agree or disagree. Similarly, I think the distinction between the Lightforged Draenei and the regular Draenei is exceedingly minimal, moreso than the one between the Blood and Void Elves, but that is also my opinion - to someone who RP's a Lightforged Draenei or is more immersed in the gameplay experience of them, the opposite could be true (and I can see the validity of such arguments despite not sharing in them).

Yet the reason you are able to cite previous instances of developers making mistakes is because they have admitted it and taken steps to rectify the damage. Is it not inappropriate to therefore use their own admissions of wrongdoing on occasion to say that because they were clearly wrong on X, and they admitted it, that they are clearly wrong on Y? That seems a bit of a leap. Particularly as the body of official commentary on this topic covers nearly fourteen years, from the Caydiem blue post in 2005 to the leaked CM response from the High Elf discord where a pro High Elfer was told that while they value people voicing their opinions, that that doesn't automatically mean they have to agree with them. That is the critical difference between previous occasions where they were making mistakes, and this debate, that they haven't said they were wrong and they keep reiterating their position on this matter. Those reiterated positions become the developer commentary regularly cited as the underpinnings of the 'anti High Elf' position, the body of evidence we have which we take to these debates to prove the opinions of the pro High Elf side wrong.

After all, when two groups get into an argument, how do you settle it? You cite evidence to back up your position. The inability of the other side to cite evidence,(once again evidence is something the creators have said, something written in an official work or something done in game) means that the other side dedicates itself to proving the official commentary wrong. Disagreeing with another fan's opinion can be considered one thing, disagreeing with a developer because what they say contradicts your own opinion is another thing, but disagreeing with a fan...then disagreeing with the developer...then insisting not only is the developer wrong but that you are right is pure arrogance (you have not done this of course, others have).

The developers stand behind faction diversity as the reason to deny playable High Elf exiles. As they have not accepted this is wrong, their rationales are valid and perfectly citeable in debate.

[Aucald]

The conflation of race and faction here is what is confusing matters. There are three distinct political factions based on their political alignment, one horde, one alliance, and the overwhelming majority who are neutral. I would point out that in terms of gameplay, there is only a single Pandaren race option with the choice of faction being made after the choice of race.

Except if you go into the character creation UI you will see two Pandaren options underneath the races selectors for Horde/Alliance, and we know there's a third that is also unplayable but appear in-game as NPC's the like. I am pointedly saying not to conflate the terms here and use the one that is applicable to what you're discussing - in-game "race" vs. ethnographic race. Conflating the terms is the problem, yes. In the case of the Pandaren their faction identity constitutes the in-game "race" choice you make.

I have to say, the Lightforged Draenei are an odd hill to argue from and a poor comparison with high exiles when the Void Elves are a far more appropriate match. Both consist of individuals who were previously bog standard members of their race transformed by outside powers into something unique, and thus were differentiated along ethnic lines and justified their position as Allied races. A lightforged draenei in other words, is as distinct from an ordinary Draenei as a Void Elf is from a Blood/High Elf. Were they as close to Draenei as High Elf exiles were, they'd simply be bog-standard Draenei who had been on their spaceship for a couple of millenia and they would almost certainly not be an Allied race.

Why is that? The Lightforged Draenei are definitely a great pick to underscore the differences between in-game race and ethnographic race, even better than the Void Elves since the Void Elves are more substantially changed both physiologically, ethnographically, and politically (turning into a Void-tainted species, altered appearance, and with a change in faction affiliation to boot). The Lightforged Draenei as still obviously Draenic in appearance, are Alliance-affilitiated like their regular brethren, and beyond an additional ritual to give them golden tattoos and eyes are no different than their cousins who arrived on the Exodar. And yet in the game UI they appear as another "race" altogether.

Yet the reason you are able to cite previous instances of developers making mistakes is because they have admitted it and taken steps to rectify the damage. Is it not inappropriate to therefore use their own admissions of wrongdoing on occasion to say that because they were clearly wrong on X, and they admitted it, that they are clearly wrong on Y? That seems a bit of a leap. Particularly as the body of official commentary on this topic covers nearly fourteen years, from the Caydiem blue post in 2005 to the leaked CM response from the High Elf discord where a pro High Elfer was told that while they value people voicing their opinions, that that doesn't automatically mean they have to agree with them. That is the critical difference between previous occasions where they were making mistakes, and this debate, that they haven't said they were wrong and they keep reiterating their position on this matter. Those reiterated positions become the developer commentary regularly cited as the underpinnings of the 'anti High Elf' position, the body of evidence we have which we take to these debates to prove the opinions of the pro High Elf side wrong.

They were still wrong - their admission of that wrongness wasn't what caused the original wrongness. What are you trying to argue here? No is claiming that having been wrong before makes them wrong now, it simply means they can't be used as an objective authority on the matter - their word doesn't make them wrong anymore than it makes them right, it's just their opinion on the matter. Even Blizzard came right out and said "there will never be playable High Elves ever, from now unto the end of time because that is the substance of our decree" it wouldn't matter, and it wouldn't make them right. It's what would happen, sure; but people would still argue it because it's not a matter of objective truth.

After all, when two groups get into an argument, how do you settle it? You cite evidence to back up your position. The inability of the other side to cite evidence,(once again evidence is something the creators have said, something written in an official work or something done in game) means that the other side dedicates itself to proving the official commentary wrong. Disagreeing with another fan's opinion can be considered one thing, disagreeing with a developer because what they say contradicts your own opinion is another thing, but disagreeing with a fan...then disagreeing with the developer...then insisting not only is the developer wrong but that you are right is pure arrogance (you have not done this of course, others have).

Depends on the argument in question - there are different forms of argument all with different means and procedures for proving truth. Evidentiary argumentation is one form of arguing, yes; but it has its necessary limits. This is not a type of argument where evidence is paramount because it's a dialectical argument - it is about opinions and subjective stances, what is or isn't proper, what should or shouldn't be done. What Blizzard thinks is simply one position in that argument, but it's not the truth of it anymore than my stance is, or your stance is. It's like arguing about something that should be done in the future: how you cite evidence for something that has no rational existence? What's your evidence for where you should go have lunch tomorrow? Is pizza superior to salad, etc. etc. etc. Even arrogance doesn't make someone "wrong" in this kind of debate, it just means people are unlikely to go along with their opinion because it's apt to badly stated or spoken.

The developers stand behind faction diversity as the reason to deny playable High Elf exiles. As they have not accepted this is wrong, their rationales are valid and perfectly citeable in debate.

Their rationale is valid and perfectly worthy of citing, yes; what it doesn't do is make them automatically correct in the matter.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Sounds to me like Devi has set a precedent already, meaning dark skin Thalassian elves exist. Why the devs decided to only put fair skin and purple skin options for playable elves is baffling. Maybe some sort of personal bias?

Kinda, but mostly just passive, result of WoW's highly derivative origins. Which I don't have issues with it, but like you can clearly trace the aesthetic inspirations of WarI and II to Classic Medieval Fantasy, Warhammer and Lord of the Rings.

Warcraft has been subverting its own narrative since War3, tho, and that's when the story IMHO began to feel more unique, with the orcs redemption, Arthas fall and the Night Elves, and ever since WoW ha become more and more unique narrative wise.

But stuff like "White Elves" keeps being a holdover of a previous blueprint. White everything humanoid sans humans really; like they realizes they had to add variety of skin color on humans at the time, but somehow that didn't click for dwarves, gnomes and elves.

asian thalassian :O

ThalAsian, if you will.

But for real; I love the concept, but I didn't like the actor they chose at first; then I realized that for some reason I think elves should have long/oval faces? IDK why. But someone like Godfrey Gao, Takeshi Kaneshiro or Ju Ji-hoon. Then I realized that wow generally gives men oval shaped faces to men and round faces to women and I was like woah. Now I really like this elf and his badass scar, must be a ranger, and I kinda ended up basing one of my chars on him

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As for the quantity and degree of specific differences in the High Elven exiles and the Blood Elves, that is a largely subjective conclusion - and it hinges wildly on the emphasis you place on certain elements. I would say one's choice of Azerothian faction/political affiliation in the Warcraft universe is a huge factor that cannot be understated - but that is my own opinion, to which others may agree or disagree. Similarly, I think the distinction between the Lightforged Draenei and the regular Draenei is exceedingly minimal, moreso than the one between the Blood and Void Elves, but that is also my opinion - to someone who RP's a Lightforged Draenei or is more immersed in the gameplay experience of them, the opposite could be true (and I can see the validity of such arguments despite not sharing in them).

Hanging on a bit from this and the previous sayings about the Huojin/Tushui divide, I can't help but bring up that the High Elf/Blood Elf political and ideological divide has had more consequences and a more lasting effect than the former. I sure hoped than the pandaren divide led to more conflict, but nary a thing.

In contrast, as recently as 8.2.5 we are still dealing with the actions of the Silver Covenant as Jaina's enforcers when we deal with Hathorel, because the Purge of Dalaran an subsequent repercussions are something that can't simply be forgotten for obvious reasons.

[Hawkknight97]

WoW. I can see that this is still going.

Here I am again and this time I'm back giving my two cents for playable high elves aside of getting permanently banned from the Discord through.

You know Life sure does have its ups and downs. Pretty much.

[Frenchvince]

A new story opens for the High Elves with 8.2.5.

May be an HE option for BE / VE or a new breed added.

[Syegfryed]

A new story opens for the High Elves with 8.2.5.

ah yes, the good old "anything that happens in warcraft is somehow someway a new story or a hint to high elves"

[Hallowseve17]

Vereesa and Alleria Windrunner are tasked with tracking down Sylvanas in the war campaign finale. There was no need to put Vereesa in there when she's done nothing this expansion, except for being in Three Sisters. Perhaps she is there to give the high elf fans hope.

[Rhlor]

Now that it is clear that the factions will dissolve stop asking for high elves? just play with a blood elf

[Obelisk Kai]

Vereesa and Alleria Windrunner are tasked with tracking down Sylvanas in the war campaign finale. There was no need to put Vereesa in there when she's done nothing this expansion, except for being in Three Sisters. Perhaps she is there to give the high elf fans hope.

Veressa was put in there for the same reason she was put on Argus, she has a familial connection with an important character in this particular storyline.

[elbleuet]

Veressa was put in there for the same reason she was put on Argus, she has a familial connection with an important character in this particular storyline.

That's so funny because she was also there along with Varian and Jaina during the Siege of Orgrimmar back in MoP ... Maybe she had familial connection with Varian who knows...
She was also there during the Siege of Suramar and now the Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0.
No, she's just there because she's an important Alliance character.

Also those high elven siege weapons just in front of Orgrimmar ... that's priceless ! Was glad to see them, and was glad to see Alleria and Vereesa. Was wondering if they'll show up eventually...

[Obelisk Kai]

That's so funny because she was also there along with Varian and Jaina during the Siege of Orgrimmar back in MoP ... Maybe she had familial connection with Varian who knows...
She was also there during the Siege of Suramar and now the Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0.
No, she's just there because she's an important Alliance character.

Also those high elven siege weapons just in front of Orgrimmar ... that's priceless ! Was glad to see them, and was glad to see Alleria and Vereesa. Was wondering if they'll show up eventually...

She was there in Siege of Orgrimmar because she had played a role in the Isle of Thunder as a part of the Dalaran forces that were then a part of the Alliance during 5.2.

She was there during the Siege of Suramar as a part of the Dalaran forces sieging the city.

And she was alone as a High Elf exile (I didn't see a single other one) during this most recent battle, accompanying her sister like the good sidekick she is because they were dealing with her sister. People love family drama. It's an easy narrative for people to sink their teeth into.

Veressa exists as either a flunky or a sister. That is her narrative role. As evidence, this is the first time I believe Veressa has done anything in game since Argus. This 'important Alliance character' managed to sit out the entire rest of the war.

[elbleuet]

She was there in Siege of Orgrimmar because she had played a role in the Isle of Thunder as a part of the Dalaran forces that were then a part of the Alliance during 5.2.

She was there during the Siege of Suramar as a part of the Dalaran forces sieging the city.

And she was alone as a High Elf exile (I didn't see a single other one) during this most recent battle, accompanying her sister like the good sidekick she is because they were dealing with her sister. People love family drama. It's an easy narrative for people to sink their teeth into.

Veressa exists as either a flunky or a sister. That is her narrative role. As evidence, this is the first time I believe Veressa has done anything in game since Argus. This 'important Alliance character' managed to sit out the entire rest of the war.

Haha, what ?

That's actually more than what Lor'Themar did in 7 expansions whereas he's a racial leader and Vereesa's not.

And when the Legion threatened Azeroth from Argus he was taking care of his hairs at that time. Does that mean he's irrelevant as a character ?

[FlubberPuddy]

Also those high elven siege weapons just in front of Orgrimmar ... that's priceless ! Was glad to see them, and was glad to see Alleria and Vereesa. Was wondering if they'll show up eventually...

I guess I missed this, do you or anyone else know what they are called so I can look it up on wowhead/etc?

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As evidence, this is the first time I believe Veressa has done anything in game since Argus. This 'important Alliance character' managed to sit out the entire rest of the war.

That’s strange to consider “evidence” since there’s the time that Vereesa in Cataclysm helped clear out trolls with that one dude (I forget his name but he’s the other ranger dude alongside Lorthemar, not Rommath). Then ofc MoP with the Purge which Blizzard didn’t forget about as it became a plot point reference in rescuing Baine in 8.2, showing it to be a major plot point.

One could actually even claim that with Sylvanas being set up as a villain that Vereesa will have even more of a role to play in upcoming story related to Sylvanas.

The same way people keep saying Void Elves will get fleshed out yknow, “just wait and see” etc etc.

[Rivex]

High elves are indeed Blood elves.....Come at me

[Hallowseve17]

I guess I missed this, do you or anyone else know what they are called so I can look it up on wowhead/etc?

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Ballista#H...elven_ballista

The blue ones. Also, no clue why they were there because there were no nameless blood elf, void elf, or high elf soldiers present.

[Aldo Hawk]

I guess I missed this, do you or anyone else know what they are called so I can look it up on wowhead/etc?

https://imgur.com/a/DUTnUpp

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High elves are indeed Blood elves.....Come at me

You are too naive to think you can cause some sort of 'ragefest' with that.

You are simply incorrect.

Only the other way is correct, and to some extent.

Someone being wrong is just someone being wrong.

And I don't think you are genuinely wrong, you know what you are doing, so I just reported it for what it is.

Good night.

[FlubberPuddy]

Nice, and no Dalaran soldiers in sight, thereby confirming High Elves are part of the Alliance !

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Very interesting that Blizzard put them there, and indeed Vereesa showed up with Alleria. Could be there's more to see about High Elves following BfA.

[Aldo Hawk]

Nice, and no Dalaran soldiers in sight, thereby confirming High Elves are part of the Alliance !

Confirming?

Only some stupidly stubborn people needs 'confirmation' about that (Even tho they don't want to stop believing what they want).

That is something someone with two neurons connecting with each other and no self conviction already knew.

And by the way, I have seen that the armies have been placed very well. They are doing a good job with portraying such things in game.

However, it was mostly incomplete, and pretty basic. But I would bet that if the quests were more engaging and lasted long, the scenario would have been much, much more elaborated.

Edit: By the way. This is mildly spoiling, so beware.

--------------------------------------------------

Has anyone seen the Black Prince agents in stealth looking at the armies?

My friend pulled one by accident and we ended up killing it. In this case it was a blood elf. Surely a rogue. With around 400-500k HP.

That is interesting...

[Kyphael]

Now that it is clear that the factions will dissolve stop asking for high elves? just play with a blood elf

Absolutely not!!! I don't want to play a fair-skinned, blonde-haired, green/golden-eyed Thalassian elf on the Alliance! I want TRUE High Elves. I want to play a fair-skinned, blonde-haired, blue eyed Thalassian elf on the Alliance. Anything less than that is unacceptable. If Blizzard ends up going that route by giving the Alliance Blood Elves instead of High Elves, there will be a new shit storm mega thread. I want to be able to ZOOM IN on my character and other player characters to VERIFY, that it is a High Elf by the indicative color of blue eyes. To have playable Blood Elves on Alliance instead of High Elves would be a slap on the face of every High Elf fan.

[FlubberPuddy]

Only some stupidly stubborn people needs 'confirmation' about that (Even tho they don't want to stop believing what they want).

Yup, you know the types of peeps I'm referring