Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Aldo Hawk]

You reported it and I respect your ability to do so... Doesn't that and your 2 page moaning and defending your views against it afterwards qualify as a 'ragefest'?

And I respect your right (?) to be wrong.

Many Devs have come out saying "you wanna play as a high elves? then play blood elves" I was merely basing my comment on that.

Your rotten comment was solely based on creating discomfort on the thread. Don't take others as cretins.

Reading the majority of your replies I think this subject is a little to close to home for you, you're forever shooting down people who go against your idea of high elves and call out their ignorance and how they're wrong. You don't need to be the white knight for High Elves accept peoples views instead of shooting them down. Please note I say accept their views and their ability to say it, not believe in them.

That is what I do here and there is nothing wrong with it. You can't tell me to not answer to people who come here just to spout falsehoods and bullshit to -actually- shoot down the other side of the argument without logic or knowledge and with bad intents and willful misunderstanding.

Or even to not answer you about your inflammatory comments.

There is no justification for doing what you did. Only excuses on why what you said is 'nothing' or 'unimportant'. Nobody needs your ill comment to create even more discomfort.

Good Morning.

And good fucking riddance.

[Rhlor]

Actually, I will have to respectfully disagree there. This IS a debate (or least supposed to be one) between people wanting Alliance High Elves to be playable, with proposing different ideas as to the matter, and various other people, naturally including opponents.

It is NOT a debate that Alliance High Elves are not currently playable – that one is factual, indeed (Void Elves excluded). But the topic itself is what is self evident – suggestions and designs as to how AHE might work. Not whether they are playable, not even whether they will or will not be playable. Or at least this is what I subjectively find the thread to be.

I think this debate will not make sense in 9.0

it is clear that the factions are going to be dissolved at least in PVE. Then there is no alliance or horde. asking for high elves in the alliance when the alliance does not exist is meaningless. You want to play with a light-skinned blond elf in Stormwind? play a blood elf

[FlubberPuddy]

I think this debate will not make sense in 9.0

it is clear that the factions are going to be dissolved at least in PVE. Then there is no alliance or horde. asking for high elves in the alliance when the alliance does not exist is meaningless. You want to play with a light-skinned blond elf in Stormwind? play a blood elf

Remains to be seen if factions will dissolve (aka can group with whoever regardless of faction).

[ddi2]

Actually, I will have to respectfully disagree there. This IS a debate (or least supposed to be one) between people wanting Alliance High Elves to be playable, with proposing different ideas as to the matter, and various other people, naturally including opponents.

It is NOT a debate that Alliance High Elves are not currently playable – that one is factual, indeed (Void Elves excluded). But the topic itself is what is self evident – suggestions and designs as to how AHE might work. Not whether they are playable, not even whether they will or will not be playable. Or at least this is what I subjectively find the thread to be.

Some people debate here, some people don't. It should be obvious to anyone who had followed this thread that one certain famous poster in this thread is not actually debating anyone here, he is just desperately trying to prevent High Elves from happening as if Blizzard is reading this thread. He doesn't actually care how much sense High Elves make. And hence he bends and changes facts and his own previous arguments to be as anti-High Elf as possible. And he knows it, he deliberately does it. So arguing with him is not actually a debate. Or at least not a debate in a good faith.

[Rivex]

That is what I do here and there is nothing wrong with it.

Well there is... you can't flame and call people out on the very thing you do yourself.. Bit hypocritical but then again so are your other hundred or so posts.

Doesn't matter your clearly set in your ways and this isn't going anywhere.

I bid you a fond good day sir.

[Obelisk Kai]

Saying that the official Blizzard statements agree with you is not really a good argumentative stance to take since those very statements have been put into question, in this thread.

You can call it "word of god" as much as you want, but Blizzard is not a god, or even as infallible as one. They make mistakes. They are not 100% correct in everything. "It's their story, so their word regarding the story is always the correct stance." Well, didn't Red Shirt Guy show that is not the case?

Blizzard's opinions and statements are not above reproach or criticism. Saying that their opinions agree with yours, by itself, does not make you any more or less correct than anyone else's.

The resort to the Appeal to Authority fallacy as a way of countering Blizzard's words will not work. The Appeal to Authority fallacy exists because appealing to the words of a presumed authority on a topic to prove something ignores that the individual being cited is fallible.

The reason it fails in this case is that the authority in question is pronouncing on their own creative work, the fictional world of warcraft. An authority can be wrong in real life, but a creator cannot be wrong about their work of fiction.

The Red shirt guy example never has been the parallel you think it is. The question posed by the Red Shirt guy was incredibly niche and related to the purely lore issue of two relatively obscure Dwarven characters. Does this mean a creator was wrong about their work of fiction? No, because it wasn't being wrong, it was an oversight and when it was pointed out to them it was corrected. Being wrong would have meant doubling down on their NPC placement and ignoring the lore that said it was incorrect.

The parallel fails because their stance on Blood Elves is not an error. It is actually a sound interpretation of the facts on a matter that is not purely lore, but heavily involves gameplay factors as well. And, in contrast to red shirt's guy triumphant moment when he did make Blizzard realise they had overlooked something, when the pro High Elf case was put to the developers you got a robust defense of the faction divide and a statements of Blizzard's interpretation of the facts, which has been our last word on the matter.

Blizzard's opinions and statements are indeed not above reproach or criticism, it is your right to make those critiques and argue for a change. But what you cannot do is insist that your opinion has equal value, or even superior value, to their own. Stating Blizzard is wrong will get you nowhere. Stating 'this is why Blizzard should change their minds' might lead to progress, but it also implies an acceptance of the facts they have put forth on this topic.

[Aldo Hawk]

Well there is... you can't flame and call people out on the very thing you do yourself.. Bit hypocritical but then again so are your other hundred or so posts.

Doesn't matter your clearly set in your ways and this isn't going anywhere.

I bid you a fond good day sir.

Things clear, you were the one coming here to bother others.

Then you got called out as you deserved.

I am not here to be polite and kind, and you don't even deserve it.

Learn your place.

[Obelisk Kai]

Lol, "one last hurrah", you must not realize this request has apparently been going on since the beta of WoW, before I was even privy of the Warcraft franchise. On the official forums, people are STILL talking about High Elves/debating about High Elves with a furor unseen by any other race request to this day. It will most likely continue even if you or me or the others here stop participating in said discussion. Because someone will always be requesting it until it may happen or the game ceases development.

That's not changing just because they don't get announced at Blizzcon, as many already expect no High Elf announcement for the entirety of BfA.

Maybe it will be "done for a while" but that's honestly what I expected it to be months ago, yet taking a gander on forums shows this not to be the case. What I am sad about is for San'layn peeps, it appears their content leader has lost hope since the recent War Campaign ousted Sylvanas as a selfish villain.

But yes, please. Consider it done. I'm sure there are many that won't mind if certain posters thought "it's over" and didn't participate anymore.

I think you misread what I wrote. I didn't say the topic would stop, it hasn't stopped in years and won't stop for the forseeable future. I said this is the last month of the topic having any relevance. Blizzcon will bring the curtains down on Battle for Azeroth and begin the next phase of WoW. After this, as confirmed by Blizzard, Allied races are going to get considerably rarer. A pair of races per expansion, or every other expansion would not be a surprising cadence.

As Allied races become rare, the chances that Blizzard will waste a rare opportunity for adding a new race to the game on something that is a duplicate of a core Horde race, and only a mild variant of an existing Alliance Allied race, are so small as to be non-existant. As they said, if you want to play that type of High Elf, the Horde is waiting for you. This position is common sense.

You cite the intense desire on the forums as if it was meaningful, I have often seen people cite High Elves as the most requested race ever, but they are also the most protested race ever. As the leaked CM post from the High Elf discord said 'While 'Every Voice matters' is one of our core values, and we value people voicing their opinions, that doesn't mean we have to agree with them. It is quite impossible to please everyone'. It also presumes that the debate, which even you acknowledge goes back to the days of classic, has had no success and has only recently begun to illicit responses. That is not true. Whilst the hard core of the pro High Elf community has rejected them, Void Elves are clearly the direct result of years of agitation for Alliance High Elves. It is incorrect therefore to presume that Blizzard is responding in a vacuum on this subject. It seems Blizzard's attitude is that they actually fulfilled the request whilst respecting their own red lines regarding faction diversity at the same time.

Blizzcon 2019 feels to be the last opportunity for them to reverse course and grant a High Elf Allied race, perhaps as part of the hypothetical 'final pair' of Allied races, the ones Ion asked for feedback on in a recent Q and A (Mecha Gnomes and Vulpera are probably a set pair, the hypothetical final pair would be the sixth and last pair)

Sure if that's what you consider done then so be it. I don't feel anyone would lament over that. Also if either of the two above cases happen, I am pretty sure most people would at least feel "now this is at least a compromise now".

"Don't give up hope" was said strictly to High Elf fans. I don't doubt the fervor over them that still continues to this day isn't something Blizzard is thinking about for post-BfA future.

Void Elves themselves are the compromise of course, but a Void Elf with 'normal' skin tones would still be a Void Elf, with Void Elf racials and the inability to be a Paladin. This is why I doubt Void Elves will receive such a customization, as it undermines their aesthetic distinctiveness and will still not be enough to satisfy the hardcore, but it clearly is possible.

The end of the War campaign has made me far more sceptical that the boundaries between the Alliance and Horde will be weakened. It seems the aim was never to remove or weaken the factions as a result of the war, it was to return the two to a position where they can nominally co-exist and co-operate in the face of future threat. This is in line with Ion Hazzikostas' recent interview with Forbes in April where he ruled out a PVE version of mercenary mode and where he extols the virtues of the faction system as being an integral part of the game. It is also in line with the existence of Void Elves and Nightborne in the first place, as why create Void Elves as a compromise for the Alliance (and then give Nightborne to the Horde as a quid pro quo) if the factions were to be significantly weakened in 9.0? Had that been the plan, and they would have known years ago it was the plan, they would have given Nightborne to the Alliance, Undead Elves to the Horde and surprised High Elf fans with the ability play a fair skinned, blue eyed, majestic elf in the Alliance in 9.0 with the weakening of the factions.

You say this very matter-of-factly but have you spent time on the US forum threads? I don't expect you too since you're EU, but the bold has in fact been said, or I should say it was something like "the Silver Covenant doesn't exist anymore because they're not in BfA, so they must've all died". Which at this point, SC is synonymous with High Elves anyway.

But the point is that kind of "logic" has been posted on US forums. It is not me exaggerating.

I don't spend time on the US forums. Or the EU forums in fact. I am content to say my piece on this topic here. If someone said that they are wrong. Of course I would quibble and say they should be strictly saying High Elf exiles, as Blood Elves ARE High Elves, High Elf exiles are High Elves and Void Elves are a flavour of High Elf, but I would presume that individual referred to the High Elf exiles.

No, you miss my point. Which is that people have different viewpoints of lore characters and it is inarguable in the sense that they aren't going to change their viewpoint of such character through argumentation of another viewpoint.

Basically, if someone thought Sylvanas was God's gift to Azeroth (as easily can be seen some do even here on MMO-C) and someone else thought she was the most vile thing on Azeroth - 99.9% of the time it will be a waste of time trying to convince the other that their viewpoint "is the true one".

So argue all you want over Vereesa's importance/unimportance, my point is you can see her however you wish because to me your viewpoint of her doesn't matter. I have my own viewpoint of Vereesa and to me that's enough.

Fair enough, but Veressa is being treated as a proxy for the High Elven exiles as a whole. You build Veressa up it seems, and you build up the High Elven exiles. Therefore is she even shows her face, it's a win for the High Elven exiles.

Yet the reason she is plainly there is because she is Sylvanas's sister. Alleria, who is the only one who speaks during this part of the quest, even opens her dialogue by saying 'Our sister...' clearly establishing the context for their presence.

I am happy to acknowledge Veressa as a character in her own right and debate the pros and cons of her role, but I draw the line at seeing as her as being representative of High Elven exile importance because that is not her role in the story now. Her role in the story is tied to Sylvanas and to Alleria.

Now if you kind folks excuse me, I have more Classic to play

I hope you are having more fun with it than I did, my guildies chose Shazzrah server to roll on and I could not tolerate the queues. By the time they all transferred to a new server I'd given up.

[Rivex]

Learn your place.

Jesus you have a Ego complex.

Think you need to tone it down a bit. Your starting to show off your very young age.

Good Afternoon

[brt2pp]

what's the point of this thread ? high elves are no more in lore, what remained of them are blelfs or void elfes, that is official blizzard stance and i doubt it's going to change. jsut deal with it that blizzard decided to give high elves to horde in burning crusade

[Aldo Hawk]

The resort to the Appeal to Authority fallacy as a way of countering Blizzard's words will not work. The Appeal to Authority fallacy exists because appealing to the words of a presumed authority on a topic to prove something ignores that the individual being cited is fallible.

The reason it fails in this case is that the authority in question is pronouncing on their own creative work, the fictional world of warcraft. An authority can be wrong in real life, but a creator cannot be wrong about their work of fiction.

This dehumanizes the creators implying that their doings are somewhat godly and they can never ever get anything wrong just because they created it.

Writers are fallible. There is nothing godly or divine in written fantasy stories. They get things wrong, they forget things, they change things because they don't know what to do with them.

The Red shirt guy example never has been the parallel you think it is. The question posed by the Red Shirt guy was incredibly niche and related to the purely lore issue of two relatively obscure Dwarven characters. Does this mean a creator was wrong about their work of fiction? No, because it wasn't being wrong, it was an oversight and when it was pointed out to them it was corrected. Being wrong would have meant doubling down on their NPC placement and ignoring the lore that said it was incorrect.

That is not how being incorrect about something works. Your world of fantasy only deceives yourself.

'Isn't falstad dead?'

Doesn't matter what he did after saying that, he got his own creation wrong.

You see... This comes from a fantasy mindset where the doublethink is strong.

You say that he can only be wrong if he doubled down on Falstad being dead. While repeating like a broken record that he would always be right just because it's him.

So you want to be the arbiter on when they are right or wrong?

If he decided that Falstad were going to be actually dead, he would have be and by your own logic it would have not been wrong. Even tho it would be doubling down on Falstad being dead.

'The Red Shirt Gut example' is the most basic example on why the authority -fallacy- doesn't work with this. An author can be wrong about what he creates.

Stating that it is 'niche', 'small', or whatever, is nothing more than trying to diminish the threat to this fantasy of the authority fallacy being correct when it suits you.

On the other hand, Ion Hazzikostas is not a writer himself. His commentary has been proven wrong since we had ways to demonstrate why and how.

Leadership, numbers, hubs, etc...

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Jesus you have a Ego complex.

Think you need to tone it down a bit. Your starting to show off your very young age.

Good Afternoon

You are just showing that you don't have anything to say.

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what's the point of this thread ? high elves are no more in lore, what remained of them are blelfs or void elfes, that is official blizzard stance and i doubt it's going to change. jsut deal with it that blizzard decided to give high elves to horde in burning crusade

Your ignorance does not shape reality.

[brt2pp]

Your ignorance does not shape reality.

it's not ignorace, it's what blizzard say, and since they are shaping the story trying to create your own headcanon is pointless, i mean, you can give examples of none velfs/belfs affiliated helfs all you want, but it doesn't matter and easily refuted by "old lore", "retcon". blizzard are ones creating the story, not you

[Rivex]

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Your ignorance does not shape reality.

Coming from the guy who can't accept the fact High Elves will never be in game as a playable race. Blood elves will probably get the blue eye tint at the very most. Still Blood Elves though just with blue eyes!

"Blood Elves are basically High Elves. Slightly different eye color and backstory, but if you want to be a light skinned elf, that is basically a Blood Elf. Giving that to the Alliance would blur the line between factions.

There aren't a ton of High Elves out there in WoW.

If you are Alliance any want to be an elf, the Horde is there for you."

Developer Q&A with Ion Hazzikostas 24/08/2018

The delusion is with you sir. You can't argue against Ion on this one.

[Aldo Hawk]

Coming from the guy who can't accept the fact High Elves will never be in game as a playable race. Blood elves will probably get the blue eye tint at the very most. Still Blood Elves though just with blue eyes!

"Blood Elves are basically High Elves. Slightly different eye color and backstory, but if you want to be a light skinned elf, that is basically a Blood Elf. Giving that to the Alliance would blur the line between factions.

There aren't a ton of High Elves out there in WoW.

If you are Alliance any want to be an elf, the Horde is there for you."

Developer Q&A with Ion Hazzikostas 24/08/2018

The delusion is with you sir. You can't argue against Ion on this one.

You are wrong, and I didn't said that to you.

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it's not ignorace, it's what blizzard say, and since they are shaping the story trying to create your own headcanon is pointless, i mean, you can give examples of none velfs/belfs affiliated helfs all you want, but it doesn't matter and easily refuted by "old lore", "retcon". blizzard are ones creating the story, not you

It is, you said an ignorant thing. That High elves don't exist anymore and that only Blood and Void elves do. Insulting the intelligence of everyone here.

[bdlovelace]

It is, you said an ignorant thing. That High elves don't exist anymore and that only Blood and Void elves do. Insulting the intelligence of everyone here.

i dont think anyone has said they dont exist. only that there are a few individuals loyal enough that showed up for the fourth war. i dont think thats enough to justify giving the alliance carbon copies of blood elves.

[Aldo Hawk]

i dont think anyone has said they dont exist. only that there are a few individuals loyal enough that showed up for the fourth war. i dont think thats enough to justify giving the alliance carbon copies of blood elves.

Dude, it's in the previous page.

Are you kidding me?

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post51645706

[CottonCandyCastro]

Learn your place.

getaloadofthisguycam.mp4

[alog109]

Just dropping by, and showing my support for High Elves for the Alliance.

[Black Goat]

The funny thing is that when Blizzard doesn't seem to agree with Obelisk Kai, he blatlantly ignores it because it doesn't suits his arguments

Isn't that exactly what you're doing? The irony in your statement is what's truly funny. You all literally ignore Blizzard's statements. You attempt to poke little fan-fic holes in their words and their implementation in a desperate attempt to seem as if you're right when the game very, very clearly shows you're wrong.

It's not really complicated to look at the game, see there are no playable High Elves, and conclude that Blizzard must not think they're worth the effort or that the story they want to portray doesn't leave room for them. Especially since you guys have been requesting them since dirt was invented. They've had 15 years or more to "agree" with you, and they haven't yet. Looks like their stance aligns with Obelisk's and mine. And let's not even get into the fact they've said High Elves are playable as Blood Elves on the Horde side.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

[bdlovelace]

i think he meant alliance high elves dont really have a role to play in the alliance story besides flavor NPCs like being dalaran portal keepers. while alleria and the void elves are firmly with the alliance and fighting the horde. making the portal keepers playable takes away from void elves being developed and just copies the blood elf fantasy into the alliance.