Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[FlubberPuddy]

As Allied races become rare, the chances that Blizzard will waste a rare opportunity for adding a new race to the game on something that is a duplicate of a core Horde race, and only a mild variant of an existing Alliance Allied race, are so small as to be non-existant. As they said, if you want to play that type of High Elf, the Horde is waiting for you. This position is common sense.

Except, "that type of High Elf" that the players who request High Elves isn't playable. Something even Aucald understands after getting clarification. Also, the entire AR system wouldn't exist if the goal of race options wasn't people wanting to play "that type of X". The very foundation of the AR as a whole is that "hey now if you want to place as this type of dwarf vs that type of dwarf you can."

The comment made by Ion on that day was a Red Herring, as he tried to justify "hey this 'race' is playable - go play them" when the entire purpose of Allied Races isn't completely new races but variations of existing ones. Hence every bit of AR released so far being a variant off of what already exists.

As far as "Allied Races being so rare they wouldn't spend time doing High Elves", I've brought up that they've acknowledged Wildhammer Dwarves as a valid request and those are simply Bronzebeard looking Dwarves with tattoos slapped on them. If these guys are valid, so are High Elves. Not to mention that you seem to keep ignoring that Afrasiabi, post Ion- "horde is waiting for you" QA, said "don't give up hope" and that was specifically a shoutout to High Elf requesters despite the question involving Void Elves, the meat of it was surrounding the High Elf request.

Besides, he's not talking to Void Elf fans when he says that as I recall Void Elf fans are extremely happy to have Void Elves the way they are.

Allied Races might become more rare, but it isn't a system Blizzard stated that replaces getting new races (think of Goblin/Worgen/Pandaren/Blood Elves/Draenei) which you seem to imply a lot. Can we see new races utilized through the Allied Race system? Sure, Vulpera for instance seem likely, but the basis of all AR is from existing races - Zandalari are a modified Night Elf skeleton, just like Nightborne for instance.

You cite the intense desire on the forums as if it was meaningful, I have often seen people cite High Elves as the most requested race ever, but they are also the most protested race ever. As the leaked CM post from the High Elf discord said 'While 'Every Voice matters' is one of our core values, and we value people voicing their opinions, that doesn't mean we have to agree with them. It is quite impossible to please everyone'.

They're the most protested because they're the most popular. It just follows by nature. PewDiePie for instance has 100m subscribers now, how many haters do you think he has in comparison to someone who has 1m subscribers by comparison?

Also it was a Forum Ticket answerer, not a CM that said that.

As you note down below you don't spend time on the official forums, so I'll let you glean some info: Go into the US megathreads of the various Allied Races. ALL of them will have anywhere from 1-X posts dissenting the inclusion of that race as an AR and the more active threads will have more posts dissenting in comparison to the lesser active ones.

Pointing out that the High Elf request has the most dissenters isn't an argument against their inclusion, because every AR has dissenters. The High Elf request has both the most for and the most against because it is the most popular. Just like my PewDiePie example. You will find the MOST haters for him than any other YT creator by nature of him being the most popular.

A WoW example would be Sylvanas for instance. She's famous, so she has the most fans and also the most haters of the playerbase that enjoys Horde leaders. In comparison, Lor'themar who is less popular by definition has less haters but also less fans.

You're trying to make some argument which doesn't make sense. If something is popular it's going to have fans and haters, the more popular it is the more fans AND haters it will have.

Blizzcon 2019 feels to be the last opportunity for them to reverse course and grant a High Elf Allied race, perhaps as part of the hypothetical 'final pair' of Allied races, the ones Ion asked for feedback on in a recent Q and A (Mecha Gnomes and Vulpera are probably a set pair, the hypothetical final pair would be the sixth and last pair).

How come it "feels to be the last opportunity", just because Allied Races will become more rare? If you're going to repeat what I already replied to above, then just re-read the above. Allied Races becoming rare doesn't mean High Elf AR opportunity won't happen, especially if Wildhammer are still valid. AR are not the vehicle taking place of new races.

Just like how in BFA Blizzard stated they're taking a break from Class sets, yet everyone seems to think Blizzard said "we're not doing Class sets anymore" and you see posts mention "I hOpE tHeY bRiNg ClAsS sEtS bAcK!!$!#" when it's like no-shit, they never stated such a thing in the first place.

Same thing with AR, Blizzard hasn't stated it's the only way they're going to bring new races now.

The end of the War campaign has made me far more sceptical that the boundaries between the Alliance and Horde will be weakened. It seems the aim was never to remove or weaken the factions as a result of the war, it was to return the two to a position where they can nominally co-exist and co-operate in the face of future threat. This is in line with Ion Hazzikostas' recent interview with Forbes in April where he ruled out a PVE version of mercenary mode and where he extols the virtues of the faction system as being an integral part of the game. It is also in line with the existence of Void Elves and Nightborne in the first place, as why create Void Elves as a compromise for the Alliance (and then give Nightborne to the Horde as a quid pro quo) if the factions were to be significantly weakened in 9.0? Had that been the plan, and they would have known years ago it was the plan, they would have given Nightborne to the Alliance, Undead Elves to the Horde and surprised High Elf fans with the ability play a fair skinned, blue eyed, majestic elf in the Alliance in 9.0 with the weakening of the factions.

I don't think boundaries will be relaxed either, but the rest of this part not commenting on because I don't agree Void Elves are a compromise for High Elves. Again, post-Ion - Afrasiabi's comment encourages continuation of this very request.

I don't spend time on the US forums. Or the EU forums in fact. I am content to say my piece on this topic here. If someone said that they are wrong. Of course I would quibble and say they should be strictly saying High Elf exiles, as Blood Elves ARE High Elves, High Elf exiles are High Elves and Void Elves are a flavour of High Elf, but I would presume that individual referred to the High Elf exiles.

They will read this I'm sure, so just bolding it for them lol. Also, they specifically referred to the Silver Covenant, but as I said - SC is synonymous with High Elves at this point. If they were referring to High Elves then they'd be immediately wrong as we see High Elf presence in BfA since 8.0.

Fair enough, but Veressa is being treated as a proxy for the High Elven exiles as a whole. You build Veressa up it seems, and you build up the High Elven exiles. Therefore is she even shows her face, it's a win for the High Elven exiles.

Yet the reason she is plainly there is because she is Sylvanas's sister. Alleria, who is the only one who speaks during this part of the quest, even opens her dialogue by saying 'Our sister...' clearly establishing the context for their presence.

I am happy to acknowledge Veressa as a character in her own right and debate the pros and cons of her role, but I draw the line at seeing as her as being representative of High Elven exile importance because that is not her role in the story now. Her role in the story is tied to Sylvanas and to Alleria.

Here's the thing. Someone can make an argument that Vereesa acts as a proxy for High Elves. Just as how people get all jumpy and excited over Dark Rangers happening because of Sylvanas's presence and how people act like Alleria's story = Void Elf story. Whether they're correct or incorrect on doing so is another story, but people do this all the time not just with Vereesa. Nor even the Elven sisters.

Some argued with Rexxar getting a new appearance to mean Ogres/Mok'nathal would join the Horde as an AR, yet no presence of them to be found. It's not uncommon at all that people do this. If they're right in doing so is another conversation entirely.

Although I have no further inclination to go deeper into that line of conversation.

I hope you are having more fun with it than I did, my guildies chose Shazzrah server to roll on and I could not tolerate the queues. By the time they all transferred to a new server I'd given up.

Having loads of fun, am honestly so glad for Classic to exist. Am getting to experience the beginning of the game and it feels good, progress is slow and steady and satisfying. I actually do not see myself buying new expansions for WoW unless they go on sale or have a feature I truly love (like check this I just saw Wish for potential new Worgen druid forms. If they come out with customization like that, I would have reasons to play more current WoW - because gearing in current doesn't feel as great as gearing in Classic. I'm content to finish up whatever content comes in BfA and then grind out all the collectables that exist and going back to Classic and completing what I want to on there.

Condolences for your guild choosing Shazzrah, that literally is the biggest content creator/streamer server so unless they had plans to play with those people they should've chose another server from the get-go. Like on the US side, all the streamers announced they'd be going to Faerlina and so recommended Herod for those not wanting to play with streamers.

Also I hear queues in EU are worse than on US, so that probably had a factor as well for queues lasting longer than US side.

It's definitely gotten more fun as I met guildies from retail who decided to play on the same server I was on. My original plan was going solo on a non-streamer server, though now if the guild falls apart (through boredom or something ) or something I will re-roll to Faerlina on US as a particular streamer is doing great things with creating a strong community presence/guild. That's where I'll go if I find myself playing solo!

[Black Goat]

Learn your place.

Exactly how far is that staff shoved up your ass? Who do you think you are to tell another human to "Learn their place"? Are you like a slave driver or something in a foreign country? Living in the big house too long, it seems.

[Aldo Hawk]

i think he meant alliance high elves dont really have a role to play in the alliance story besides flavor NPCs like being dalaran portal keepers. while alleria and the void elves are firmly with the alliance and fighting the horde. making the portal keepers playable takes away from void elves being developed and just copies the blood elf fantasy into the alliance.

What he said is crystal clear.

And he is wrong.

They are part of the Alliance, as much as Dark Iron Dwarves are.

The only difference is that they are not playable.

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Exactly how far is that staff shoved up your ass? Who do you think you are to tell another human to "Learn their place"? Are you like a slave driver or something in a foreign country? Living in the big house too long, it seems.

Your comment was pretty hilarious, I must admit.

However. You are defending someone who's only intent is to create a bad environment through messages that only have inflammatory goals behind them.

If you feel that I said something out of place, I would strongly suggest that you should reconsider your stance, since it's very wrong.

[Ielenia]

The resort to the Appeal to Authority fallacy as a way of countering Blizzard's words will not work. The Appeal to Authority fallacy exists because appealing to the words of a presumed authority on a topic to prove something ignores that the individual being cited is fallible.

The reason it fails in this case is that the authority in question is pronouncing on their own creative work, the fictional world of warcraft. An authority can be wrong in real life, but a creator cannot be wrong about their work of fiction.

Except we're not talking about objective matters, like how big the continent of Kalimdor is, or how all the different types of magic interact with one-another. We're talking about subjective matters, and, on that subject, Blizzard's "authority" is very much questionable. The "blurring of faction lines" is highly subjective. The "low population" argument is highly subjective. Even the "they look alike" is also subjective.

The Red shirt guy example never has been the parallel you think it is. The question posed by the Red Shirt guy was incredibly niche and related to the purely lore issue of two relatively obscure Dwarven characters. Does this mean a creator was wrong about their work of fiction? No, because it wasn't being wrong, it was an oversight and when it was pointed out to them it was corrected. Being wrong would have meant doubling down on their NPC placement and ignoring the lore that said it was incorrect.

An oversight is still a mistake. It means you were wrong. And yes, the Red Shirt Guy example is a viable parallel, because it shows that what Blizzard says is not 100% perfect and void of errors, and "what they say, goes" regarding their creative work.

The parallel fails because their stance on Blood Elves is not an error. It is actually a sound interpretation of the facts on a matter that is not purely lore, but heavily involves gameplay factors as well. And, in contrast to red shirt's guy triumphant moment when he did make Blizzard realise they had overlooked something, when the pro High Elf case was put to the developers you got a robust defense of the faction divide and a statements of Blizzard's interpretation of the facts, which has been our last word on the matter.

"Sound interpretation" is, again, just your opinion. Because there are lot of controversy regarding said "sound interpretation". Even former Blizzard employees voiced their disagreement regarding said "sound interpretation".

Blizzard's opinions and statements are indeed not above reproach or criticism, it is your right to make those critiques and argue for a change. But what you cannot do is insist that your opinion has equal value, or even superior value, to their own. Stating Blizzard is wrong will get you nowhere. Stating 'this is why Blizzard should change their minds' might lead to progress, but it also implies an acceptance of the facts they have put forth on this topic.

But everyone's opinions do have equal value, since we're talking about subjective matters.

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Coming from the guy who can't accept the fact High Elves will never be in game as a playable race.

Just a 'FYI', "'X feature' will never be in the game" are usually DOA arguments. Because your statement is just as true and false as saying "'X feature' will be in the game".

"Blood Elves are basically High Elves. Slightly different eye color and backstory, but if you want to be a light skinned elf, that is basically a Blood Elf. Giving that to the Alliance would blur the line between factions.

There aren't a ton of High Elves out there in WoW.

"If you are Alliance any want to be an elf, the Horde is there for you."

Developer Q&A with Ion Hazzikostas 24/08/2018

Here's another statement from Blizzard: "You think you do, but you don't."

How did that turn out?

The delusion is with you sir. You can't argue against Ion on this one.

Don't project, please. And yes, we can, and we are.

[Black Goat]

Your comment was pretty hilarious, I must admit.

However. You are defending someone who's only intent is to create a bad environment through messages that only have inflammatory goals behind them.

If you feel that I said something out of place, I would strongly suggest that you should reconsider your stance, since it's very wrong.

I'm... wrong? You told someone to "learn their place" in a discussion about High Elves, which has so many implications regarding how you view yourself. I think you're taking your obsession for this too far. I will begin reporting your posts that insult and degrade other people in the furtherance of your unpopular High Elf opinion, and I hope others do, too. I don't report posts or people hardly, but your attitude and choice of words disgusts me to the point where I'll make an exception for you.

You're wrong for being so nasty to people who are only here to discuss the pros and cons of High Elves. You should strongly reconsider how you talk to people.

[Aldo Hawk]

I'm... wrong? You told someone to "learn their place" in a discussion about High Elves

Except you fail to understand that the message I responded to goes beyond a 'discussion about High Elves', since it was crafted to do anything but -discuss-.

Reconsider your stance, since it's very, very wrong.

Edit: In fact, I see you responded to another poster saying that the request is based on fan-fic.

That is not only ignorant but heavily wrong.

You have not taken any time to read what others said or even to try to understand anything that goes beyond what you personally want.

[Black Goat]

Except you fail to understand that the message I responded to goes beyond a 'discussion about High Elves', since it was crafted to do anything but -discuss-.

Reconsider your stance, since it's very, very wrong.

I don't need to reconsider anything. You're nothing more than a bully with an unpopular opinion who would prefer to tell people their wrong, call them stupid, and other derogatory phrases like "learn your place" so you can feel special about supporting a fictional video game race. I'm not "failing" to understand anything. A brief search of your post history helps me understand exactly what I'm talking to -- a person that wants to put people down instead of raise them up.

- - - Updated - - -

Edit: In fact, I see you responded to another poster saying that the request is based on fan-fic.

That is not only ignorant but heavily wrong.

You have not taken any time to read what others said or even to try to understand anything that goes beyond what you personally want.

Yes, I have. You're still wrong. High Elves are playable, just not on the Alliance faction. It's not a complex issue. People can type all the paragraphs they want to try and dilute the facts. Yet only one fact remains: High Elves, by and large, converted to Blood Elves and joined the Horde. End of story. That's not an opinion. That's not debatable. That's a demonstrable fact both in game and in lore.

[Aldo Hawk]

I don't need to reconsider anything. You're nothing more than a bully with an unpopular opinion who would prefer to tell people their wrong, call them stupid, and other derogatory phrases like "learn your place" so you can feel special about supporting a fictional video game race. I'm not "failing" to understand anything. A brief search of your post history helps me understand exactly what I'm talking to -- a person that wants to put people down instead of raise them up.

These are your feelings talking.

And I don't have to 'raise up' anybody when the intention is clearly to come here and spout some derogatory and incendiary comment with the purpose of creating a bad environment.

Just look at it and write with a straight face that it was not the intent: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post51636917

In fact, you are telling me to shy away instead of answering to -actual- 'bullies'.

Yes, I have. You're still wrong. High Elves are playable, just not on the Alliance faction. It's not a complex issue. People can type all the paragraphs they want to try and dilute the facts. Yet only one fact remains: High Elves, by and large, converted to Blood Elves and joined the Horde. End of story. That's not an opinion. That's not debatable. That's a demonstrable fact both in game and in lore.

High elves are not playable.

I play a Blood elf, it is my main, I played the majority of the time I have played WoW through the eyes of a Blood elf.

Blood elves are not the High elves that are being asked for.

High elves are not Blood elves. High elves are not Void elves.

You just want to repeat that Blood elves and Void elves are High elves because that is all that you have at the end. However, that fact does not conflict with the other fact that High elves are not Blood elves or Void elves. It only conflicts because individuals like you push for it as if it meant the other way is not correct. Which is a -wrong- stance and a -wrong- argument to make.

What you call a 'demonstrable fact' does nothing more than jump over the blatantly obvious existence of the High elves that never returned to Quel'thalas, despise the Horde and stayed with the Alliance. It is a falsehood pushed only by your personal desire for the request to fade off and stop being mentioned again.

[Starla]

I'm dropping by to say I hope Blizz listens to those of us who disagree with adding playable high elves to the Alliance.
If anything the Alliance players should be happy they have Void Elves.
Void Elves being so popular makes me think that blizz is happy with their addition to the Alliance.

[Gurluas]

i dont think anyone has said they dont exist. only that there are a few individuals loyal enough that showed up for the fourth war. i dont think thats enough to justify giving the alliance carbon copies of blood elves.

Please read this thread, most High elf proponents want to change them and make them distinct from Blood elves, while keeping the unique flavor that makes them appealing to begin with.

[Kyphael]

Might want to leave that one alone....seems like she's kind of emotional.

I'm dropping by to say I hope Blizz listens to reason and doesn't give playable high elves to the Alliance.
If anything the Alliance players should be happy they have Void Elves........oh wait, they are!!!

I'd still settle for some blue eyes/light hair/skin customization on the Void Elf and call it a day. At this point, it's the only realistic remaining compromise, if that. I don't even expect their own Allied Race slot anymore.

[Starla]

They'll not be high elves then.

[CottonCandyCastro]

I'd still settle for some blue eyes/light hair/skin customization on the Void Elf and call it a day. At this point, it's the only realistic remaining compromise, if that. I don't even expect their own Allied Race slot anymore.

To be entirely fair void elves are, themselves, a compromise.

[sammygm]

I'd say if the speculation about faction lines blurring is true, and I can walk around Silvermoon and Stormwind without getting attacked or having to set foot in Orgrimmar ever again, wear Alliance themed gear and tabards, team up and interact with Alliance races as a Blood Elf, then I'd say that's a good compromise in my eyes. It'd at least save me from levelling up a fresh character or race changing.

Add like a blue eye colour option to Blood Elf as a bonus.

[bdlovelace]

Please read this thread, most High elf proponents want to change them and make them distinct from Blood elves, while keeping the unique flavor that makes them appealing to begin with.

i have read the thread. and i find kai the most convincing and honest. most pros want the blood elf fantasy copy pasted to the alliance. pretty much every change proposed has been a blood elf combing their hair different and smearing on war paint. hairstyle is not distinct enough. a political opinion isnt either. you could scrap the portal keeper and the island expedition team memebr in boralus and 99% of the alliance wouldnt notice or care. thats how much of a role they play in the alliance story

What he said is crystal clear.

And he is wrong.

They are part of the Alliance, as much as Dark Iron Dwarves are.

The only difference is that they are not playable.

how? dark iron dwarves appear in the war campaign and for assaults. you know who doesnt? these elusive, almost mythic, alliance high elves. not a single one appears in the war campaign

[Broflake]

High elves are not playable.

I would have to respectfully disagree with you here Aldo. The blood elf people are high elves, they simply renamed themselves. It is through them that you experience the high elf storyline. Their crushing defeat at the hands of Arthas and their rebirth as blood elves. To suggest they are not playable is a disingenuous argument.

Blood elves are not the High elves that are being asked for.

High elves are not Blood elves. High elves are not Void elves.

High elves are Blood elves. The elves calling themselves high elves are those who refused to follow the rest of their people with the name change. At a fundamental level, they are still the same race.
On the other hand, void elves are blood elves who are transformed. Those blood elves were also around during the time of Arthas and also changed their names from being high elves. It is more accurate to state high elves and blood elves are the same people, but void elves are those elves transformed by void magic,

What you call a 'demonstrable fact' does nothing more than jump over the blatantly obvious existence of the High elves that never returned to Quel'thalas, despise the Horde and stayed with the Alliance. It is a falsehood pushed only by your personal desire for the request to fade off and stop being mentioned again.

This is only partially true here. Some high elves are against the Horde, such as Alleria and Vereesa. Some are not against them and are neutral and sometimes friendly towards the Horde. To suggest the high elves hate the horde is not making an honest argument.


Now, to address another argument.
It is my understanding those wanting them playable are offering to change them. I have several issues with the notion for the following reason.

First, the appearance of high elves and blood elves is the same because they are the same people, with the same origins. Their lore has established their appearance ever since the Warcraft RTS games. Changing them would be a pure violation of the original lore, a lore, which by those of the pro side, state they wish to protect. On the other hand, changing it in such a manner means the lore no longer matters.

Second, even if we ignore the first, if the reason you like high elves is because of the original lore, then does it not contradict your stance to change them? Why would you change what you originally admired? It becomes more of a matter of title, then, rather than it being about the actual race and lore itself. Perhaps I am wrong, but it just seems too...superficial? Struggling to find the right word.

[Moody Blue]

I really think sooner or later they will add them to the game. Maybe with the factions being at peace, they can rebuild Silvermoon together and let the High Elves return.

[Broflake]

I really think sooner or later they will add them to the game. Maybe with the factions being at peace, they can rebuild Silvermoon together and let the High Elves return.

The high elves are allowed to return. Alleria was in Silvermoon during the Nightborne recruitment quest.

[Moody Blue]

The high elves are allowed to return. Alleria was in Silvermoon during the Nightborne recruitment quest.

All the better.

[Ielenia]

I would have to respectfully disagree with you here Aldo. The blood elf people are high elves, they simply renamed themselves. It is through them that you experience the high elf storyline. Their crushing defeat at the hands of Arthas and their rebirth as blood elves. To suggest they are not playable is a disingenuous argument.

It's not a disingenuous argument. It's a statement of fact. The group of high elves that refused to follow Arthas' teachings, that refused to be 'mana vampires' as they called it, the group that did not join the Horde, that followed a different path than the blood elves, had to find different ways to deal with the pains of withdrawal after their connection to the Sunwell was severed and had to adapt their culture and lifestyle to survive after being banished from their homeland is not playable.1

High elves are Blood elves. The elves calling themselves high elves are those who refused to follow the rest of their people with the name change. At a fundamental level, they are still the same race.

So are Kul'tiran and Stormwind humans. Seems to me you're taking the concept of "playable race" and applying it the same definition as the word "race". No, a playable race is not a "race", but a particular group of said race. When you create a troll character, you're playing as a Darkspear troll. Not as a Gurubashi troll, not an Amani troll, not a Zandalari troll. When you make a human, you're playing as a Stormwind human. Not as a Lordaeron human, not as an Arathi human, not as a Gilneas human. Dwarves? You're an Ironforge dwarf. Etc, etc. Which is why saying "high elves and blood elves are the same race" is not a very useful argument.