Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[bdlovelace]

So are Kul'tiran and Stormwind humans. Seems to me you're taking the concept of "playable race" and applying it the same definition as the word "race". No, a playable race is not a "race", but a particular group of said race. When you create a troll character, you're playing as a Darkspear troll. Not as a Gurubashi troll, not an Amani troll, not a Zandalari troll. When you make a human, you're playing as a Stormwind human. Not as a Lordaeron human, not as an Arathi human, not as a Gilneas human. Dwarves? You're an Ironforge dwarf. Etc, etc. Which is why saying "high elves and blood elves are the same race" is not a very useful argument.

youre trying to separate high/blood elves by comparing them to kul tiran and stormwind humans who have different ethnic backgrounds and geographical origins. a more accurate and honest comparison would be if 1% of the SW population left because they thought the water tasted funny one day and moved to dalaran.

high/blood elves are the exact same identical people with the only difference being the adjective they identify as. in this case all high elves come from quel'thalas and the blood elves fulfill the high elf fantasy, that literally a few left and serve as the occasional portal keeper has no bearing on anything

[Ielenia]

youre trying to separate high/blood elves by comparing them to kul tiran and stormwind humans who have different ethnic backgrounds and geographical origins. a more accurate and honest comparison would be if 1% of the SW population left because they thought the water tasted funny one day and moved to dalaran.

high/blood elves are the exact same identical people with the only difference being the adjective they identify as. in this case all high elves come from quel'thalas and the blood elves fulfill the high elf fantasy, that literally a few left and serve as the occasional portal keeper has no bearing on anything

High elves and blood elves are only as "identical" as Blizzard decides them to be. Remember that, in vanilla WoW, blood elves and high elves had the exact same build as night elves, only with lighter skin. It wasn't until TBC came along and made blood elves playable that the Thalassian race got a model of their own.

Kul'tiran humans had the exact same build and skin color as Stormwind humans throughout the entire game, until BfA came along to make them playable. My point is that if Blizzard decides to make high elves playable, they will make them distinct. More than enough lore currently exists that could be used for that, and even more could be created.

[bdlovelace]

Kul'tiran humans had the exact same build and skin color as Stormwind humans throughout the entire game, until BfA.

again stormwind humans come from stormwind. kultirans come from kul tiras. we saw a few kul tirans before BFA. when we actually go to kul tiras it turns out theres a few different flavors. high/blood elves come from the same place, quel'thalas. theres no lore reason any physical changes made to alliance high elves couldnt also be applied to blood elves. void elves are what you are in fact proposing, a model made distinct from the blood elves for the alliance. but what you want is the exact blood elf fantasy to be given to the alliance

kul tirans are also on the same faction. youd have a better chance of asking for a blue eyed high elf AR for the horde. but then wouldnt golden eyed blood elves have to become a new AR as well? see how logical this request sounds now?

[Broflake]

It's not a disingenuous argument. It's a statement of fact. The group of high elves that refused to follow AKael'thas' teachings, that refused to be 'mana vampires' as they called it, the group that did not join the Horde, that followed a different path than the blood elves, had to find different ways to deal with the pains of withdrawal after their connection to the Sunwell was severed and had to adapt their culture and lifestyle to survive after being banished from their homeland is not playable.

A few corrections before I proceed. I corrected the name since it wasn't Arthas it was Kael'thas.
Secondly, the only high elves that exist, are those who simply did not go home. The high elves who did not wish to be mana vampires were the Quel'lithien elves, and they were the only exiled group of high elves.
All the other high elves used magical crystals to feed their mana addiction. There is no suggestion of a different lifestyle/culture.
The argument is disingenuous because it is an attempt to create a difference which is purely political in its creation. The difference between high elf and blood elf is political. This does not make them different people in terms of race/lifestyle/culture. It is the equivalent of you and I having a disagreement.
This is the same as the fogsail and alterac humans. They did not go inline with the actions of stormwind/kul tiras humans, but they are still humans, they are only politically difference.
This is why the argument is disingenuous, because it attempts to suggest there are differences which are not supported by lore.

So are Kul'tiran and Stormwind humans. Seems to me you're taking the concept of "playable race" and applying it the same definition as the word "race". No, a playable race is not a "race", but a particular group of said race. When you create a troll character, you're playing as a Darkspear troll. Not as a Gurubashi troll, not an Amani troll, not a Zandalari troll. When you make a human, you're playing as a Stormwind human. Not as a Lordaeron human, not as an Arathi human, not as a Gilneas human. Dwarves? You're an Ironforge dwarf. Etc, etc. Which is why saying "high elves and blood elves are the same race" is not a very useful argument.

There are a few flaws with this argument you are presenting.
Firstly, blood elves and high elves come from the same nation. Quel'Thalas. They are all also from the same generation. All the sub-groups you have mentioned are different both in terms of their geographical origination, as well as their culture and life styles. This is very different from every single example you have provided as no other group has the same situation. This is not a case of a group of elves developing completely separate from their own race of thalassian elves.

Secondly, core races are indeed meant to represent the race as a whole. This is why Amani trolls will never become playable. The darkspear are meant to represent this troll race. Same for every other core race. Now at this point, one would say, well what about the allied races? What do they represent and what do they mean?

Allied races purposes is literally only to expand upon the already existing looks of that race. This is supported by the ask the dev statements.
The kul tiran model is NOT exclusive to humans, and is to be used for everyone. This is why we see skinny humans across every single nation.

Now...then someone goes...void elves and nightborne?
Both void elves and nightborne were changed significantly to be their own races. They are an exception to Blizzards existing rule purely for the racial exchange.

There is also a game design issue at hand. If you are playing a race which already exists, and the allied race has the same aesthetics/origins/biology, they are kept on their core faction.


This is why high elves are so controversial compared to other AR suggestions. They completely ignore the context of every single existing allied race, and they also present design issues given the implementation of void elves who prevent the existence of high elves ever being playable.

[Broflake]

I did a big long post but I think it got eaten =(
Lovelace addressed it for me previously.
I will also add the following.

Kul tirans and SW humans are not any different per Blizzard. The KT models also apply to all humans and will be used in th efuture for humans as well. Indeed, they even recognize if the biology is the same, then they stay on the same faction.

High elves and blood elves are only as "identical" as Blizzard decides them to be. Remember that, in vanilla WoW, blood elves and high elves had the exact same build as night elves, only with lighter skin. It wasn't until TBC came along and made blood elves playable that the Thalassian race got a model of their own.

Blizzard decided they were the same people and identical way back in WC and onwards. If we use this argument, then it goes back to what I said earlier. The lore doesn't matter.

[Alixie]

The high elves are allowed to return. Alleria was in Silvermoon during the Nightborne recruitment quest.

They're only allowed to visit the Sunwell under heavy guard. IIR, Lorthemar says Alleria, who is a special case, was allowed to make a pilgrimage, not loiter around the city unattended.

A shower thought on unification and the Sunwell.

I doubt cross fraction mingling of blood and high elves will happen. Peace is one thing, but its unlikely that either party wants to bury the hatchet. Blood Elves participating in their own "Undead warlord destroys elf city and wipes out most of their population" campaign, probably soured their opinions on their cousins worse than ever. And the previous patch showed that a number of Blood Elves are still pissy about "muh Purge" years later.

There is also the fact that the Night Elves and Zandalari who are still fresh with anger about the opposing fraction, enough to barely participate in the final siege. I DO believe that there will be a fraction split with the Forsaken. They showed that there are still Forsaken who want to stay loyal to Sylvanas/Horde, and Forsaken who want to leave with Calia for a new life. Another "same race but different fraction" situation.

I think the High Elves as secular/non practicing in a way that they no longer worship the Sunwell like the Blood Elves. They make pilgrimages out of respect for the memory of what was lost, but its clearly in the past for them. In the Shadow of the Sun, Lorthemar monologued that while the High Elves were resentful of him exiling them and leaving them to be attacked by Sylvanas's minions, they should still be grateful that they got a new Sunwell as a consolation prize.

What would be interesting is if the High Elves made it crystal clear that they do NOT worship or care about the Sunwell anymore. They've had years to wean themselves off the Sunwell - some like the Highvale ditched magic all together - they might not want to go back to that addiction and lifestyle. They can chose to "stay vegan" even when holy hamburgers are back on the menu. Its a good way to both sever the High Elves connection to the Sunwell, and have them move on from the past that the Blood Elves want to stay in.

[bdlovelace]

I doubt cross fraction mingling of blood and high elves will happen.

they already mingle in dalaran. auric sunchaser resides as a high elf representative on quel'danas. vereesa continued to work with the farstriders and halduron in legion. and the purge is blamed solely on jaina. and with the faction war being put on the back burner there isnt even a hatchet to bury. its all about being for azeroth now

[matrix123mko]

With Sylvanas out and Horde officially dismantled blood elves can get blue eyes customisation options.

[Gurluas]

i have read the thread. and i find kai the most convincing and honest. most pros want the blood elf fantasy copy pasted to the alliance. pretty much every change proposed has been a blood elf combing their hair different and smearing on war paint. hairstyle is not distinct enough. a political opinion isnt either. you could scrap the portal keeper and the island expedition team memebr in boralus and 99% of the alliance wouldnt notice or care. thats how much of a role they play in the alliance story



how? dark iron dwarves appear in the war campaign and for assaults. you know who doesnt? these elusive, almost mythic, alliance high elves. not a single one appears in the war campaign

Kai is delusional and blatantly ignores any arguments that doesn't go with his agenda. Most pros disagree with the Blizzard statement but acknowledge it and try to find a compromise or solution, and it's because High elves have indeed been proven to be different from Blood elves in almost every appearance they've had since TBC.

Thematically yes they are the Alliance Blood elves...with different morals, a different backstory, and different beliefs.
And if Skincolor and different hairstyles isn't enough, then what about the Mag'har and the Dark Iron? They're literally different skin colored Dwarves/Orcs with different hairstyles.

I did however go a step further and suggests arcane crystalline elves or leafy plant elves.
If the faction wall is torn down and reunification happens though...It'd be a good way to get High elves in I'll admit.

[Ielenia]

again stormwind humans come from stormwind. kultirans come from kul tiras. we saw a few kul tirans before BFA. when we actually go to kul tiras it turns out theres a few different flavors. high/blood elves come from the same place, quel'thalas. theres no lore reason any physical changes made to alliance high elves couldnt also be applied to blood elves. void elves are what you are in fact proposing, a model made distinct from the blood elves for the alliance. but what you want is the exact blood elf fantasy to be given to the alliance

Kul'tiras haven't existed long enough for speciation to occur. Kul'tiras humans are still humans. As for lore, yes, there are. High elves did not depend on "mana vampirism" to deal with their withdrawal pains. So, Blizzard could use the idea that they trained their bodies to withstand the physical pains of their addiction. On top of that, one of the side effects of fel magic is that it weakens the body, and considering blood elves simply could not be warriors when TBC came along, it supports my hypothesis.

kul tirans are also on the same faction. youd have a better chance of asking for a blue eyed high elf AR for the horde.

You wouldn't be saying that if you cared even just a little about the lore. Also, wouldn't that logic mean nightborne should've been in the Alliance?

but then wouldnt golden eyed blood elves have to become a new AR as well? see how logical this request sounds now?

The only lack of logic comes from you. High elves have different political and cultural views than the blood elves. High elves hate the blood elves. High elves had to find different ways to deal with the consequences of their severed connection to the Sunwell.

[Alixie]

they already mingle in dalaran. auric sunchaser resides as a high elf representative on quel'danas. vereesa continued to work with the farstriders and halduron in legion. and the purge is blamed solely on jaina. and with the faction war being put on the back burner there isnt even a hatchet to bury. its all about being for azeroth now

Elves are notorious for having grudges, and Halduron was one of the few Blood Elves who wanted to work with the traitorous High Elves. Lorthemar's arm had to be bent to allow Halduron to take some Farstriders to help the Alliance with the troll problem. In the Nightborne recruitment scenario, he divisively declines Alleria's proposition to rejoin the Alliance before she even asks. He throws in a petty insult about Anduin too. In the two sisters, Alleria gets the same reaction from Sylvanas when she brings up the possibly of the Blood Elves rejoining the Alliance. Then there is Lidrian who took her Blood Knights and left the Silver Hand, distancing herself from the Alliance even more. The Belf leadership has made it recently clear that they do not support the idea of going back to the Alliance in anyway.

Now throw on the fresh wounds post BFA with the other races. Nobody, particularly on the Alliance has a good reason to want to join the Horde or see them walking in their cities. Not while Teldrassil is still smoldering, and Darkshore is still infested with Blight and Horde troops. The only race that seems likely to split because of political differences are the Forsaken.

[CottonCandyCastro]

Elves are notorious for having grudges, and Halduron was one of the few Blood Elves who wanted to work with the traitorous High Elves. Lorthemar's arm had to be bent to allow Halduron to take some Farstriders to help the Alliance with the troll problem. In the Nightborne recruitment scenario, he divisively declines Alleria's proposition to rejoin the Alliance before she even asks. He throws in a petty insult about Anduin too.

Lor'themar also makes a big deal about how he wouldn't deny her a visit to the Sunwell because blah blah blah birthright blah Silvermoon. Which doesn't seem like something a rabid helf hating bigot would do to me, fam.

It sounds more like someone who just doesn't like the Alliance. Can you blame him?

[Rootsbum]

As long as KT humans is its own race, I dont see a issue with High Elfs.
KT humans are basically fat humans with another culture.
They also have skinny/normal models, so why cant we have new HEs as well? The unplayable ones would be the ones ingame.

A new model for High Elfs with a body-type/style reflecting the culture they have had since drifting from the the BE.

[FlubberPuddy]

Lor'themar also makes a big deal about how he wouldn't deny her a visit to the Sunwell because blah blah blah birthright blah Silvermoon. Which doesn't seem like something a rabid helf hating bigot would do to me, fam.

It sounds more like someone who just doesn't like the Alliance. Can you blame him?

Then immediately attempts to have her in chains, just because a Void being (which Alleria wasn't working with) decided to show up, and when Alleria HELPED THEM get rid of that Void entity.

I think it's safe to say Lor'themar is prime example of a wishy-washy person in all that's happened, including BfA.

- - - Updated - - -

If the faction wall is torn down and reunification happens though...It'd be a good way to get High elves in I'll admit.

Pretty much how I see it too. Remains to be seen though.

- - - Updated - - -

they already mingle in dalaran. auric sunchaser resides as a high elf representative on quel'danas. vereesa continued to work with the farstriders and halduron in legion. and the purge is blamed solely on jaina. and with the faction war being put on the back burner there isnt even a hatchet to bury. its all about being for azeroth now

And Vereesa would like Blood Elves to come back to the Alliance so I guess there's that going for mingling too

[CottonCandyCastro]

Then immediately attempts to have her in chains, just because a Void being (which Alleria wasn't working with) decided to show up, and when Alleria HELPED THEM get rid of that Void entity.

If your presence creates a situation where an entire race is put at risk because of your pacts with the forces of evil, you don't really get to act shocked if said race tells you to sling your hook.

[Broflake]

They're only allowed to visit the Sunwell under heavy guard. IIR, Lorthemar says Alleria, who is a special case, was allowed to make a pilgrimage, not loiter around the city unattended.

This is false, the sunwell is under heavy guard because it is the sunwell, not because of the high elves. Why would they need to defend it from the high elves who are just as dependent upon its existence? Lor'themar makes it lear that as they are children of quel'thalas, they would never be denied the ability to see it,. which included Alleria who despote being transformed into a void elf, was allowed to visit.
In fact, it is only after the matter of the sunwell being threatened by the void in which he states "you can no longer call silvermoon your home.".

I doubt cross fraction mingling of blood and high elves will happen. Peace is one thing, but its unlikely that either party wants to bury the hatchet. Blood Elves participating in their own "Undead warlord destroys elf city and wipes out most of their population" campaign, probably soured their opinions on their cousins worse than ever. And the previous patch showed that a number of Blood Elves are still pissy about "muh Purge" years later.

And if you play the quest, they are pissy towards Jaina Proudmoore, and not their high elf kin.

I think the High Elves as secular/non practicing in a way that they no longer worship the Sunwell like the Blood Elves. They make pilgrimages out of respect for the memory of what was lost, but its clearly in the past for them. In the Shadow of the Sun, Lorthemar monologued that while the High Elves were resentful of him exiling them and leaving them to be attacked by Sylvanas's minions, they should still be grateful that they got a new Sunwell as a consolation prize.

You mean...despite the fact they clearly worship and find the sunwell holy as seen in the Quel'delar sword quest and Alleria desiring to see it once more because she has missed it for such a long period of time?
Lor'themar also does not like their reliance on the sunwell, and he does not state they should be grateful. The entire thing is him being remorseful for his actions of exiling the quel'lithien high elves and wishing to help them and make amends.

What would be interesting is if the High Elves made it crystal clear that they do NOT worship or care about the Sunwell anymore. They've had years to wean themselves off the Sunwell - some like the Highvale ditched magic all together - they might not want to go back to that addiction and lifestyle. They can chose to "stay vegan" even when holy hamburgers are back on the menu. Its a good way to both sever the High Elves connection to the Sunwell, and have them move on from the past that the Blood Elves want to stay in.

All thalassian elves, blood and high elves are connected to the sunwellthroughout space and time. So no...they are not weaned off of anything. The moment the sunwell disappears again they wil have the same situation in TBC.

[Ielenia]

Same then can be said of Blood Elves and the Elves you are requesting.. especially considering they're not doing anything to propagate any sort of physical distinction between the two that then wouldn't be able to be applied to Blood Elves.

So what? Blizzard didn't do anything to propagate any sort of physical distinction between Kul'Tiras humans and Stormwind humans until BfA.

So in essence what is being requested is the Blood Elf model, just on the Alliance..

Nope. Wrong. Try again.

which is highly unlikely to happen and a very specific dev; who's name need not be mentioned, has already weighed in on that thought.

And? Are you saying they are incapable of changing their minds?

[Broflake]

So what? Blizzard didn't do anything to propagate any sort of physical distinction between Kul'Tiras humans and Stormwind humans until BfA.

Per Blizzard there is no distinction in appearances between Kul Tirans and Stormwind Humans. They all look the same according to lore.

Nope. Wrong. Try again.

Except it is, because of the fact that if high elves were to suddenly gain a different appearance, it would need to be reflected in blood elves as well because they are from the same region, place, and generation.

And? Are you saying they are incapable of changing their minds?

I do not believe anyone is saying that, but it is clear Blizzard is viewing the matter objectively and simply does not wish to create a high elf race due to the contentious situation involved, as well as the difficulty and redesigning such a race who is already represented.
This isn't a case of different region (Kul tirans), or separation (LF dranei), or different clan (Mag'har, HM tauren, Dark Iron, Nightborne).
Let alone void elves exist, and their existence alone really puts an end to the matter.

[Obelisk Kai]

Except, "that type of High Elf" that the players who request High Elves isn't playable. Something even Aucald understands after getting clarification. Also, the entire AR system wouldn't exist if the goal of race options wasn't people wanting to play "that type of X". The very foundation of the AR as a whole is that "hey now if you want to place as this type of dwarf vs that type of dwarf you can."

The comment made by Ion on that day was a Red Herring, as he tried to justify "hey this 'race' is playable - go play them" when the entire purpose of Allied Races isn't completely new races but variations of existing ones. Hence every bit of AR released so far being a variant off of what already exists.

As far as "Allied Races being so rare they wouldn't spend time doing High Elves", I've brought up that they've acknowledged Wildhammer Dwarves as a valid request and those are simply Bronzebeard looking Dwarves with tattoos slapped on them. If these guys are valid, so are High Elves. Not to mention that you seem to keep ignoring that Afrasiabi, post Ion- "horde is waiting for you" QA, said "don't give up hope" and that was specifically a shoutout to High Elf requesters despite the question involving Void Elves, the meat of it was surrounding the High Elf request.

Besides, he's not talking to Void Elf fans when he says that as I recall Void Elf fans are extremely happy to have Void Elves the way they are.

Allied Races might become more rare, but it isn't a system Blizzard stated that replaces getting new races (think of Goblin/Worgen/Pandaren/Blood Elves/Draenei) which you seem to imply a lot. Can we see new races utilized through the Allied Race system? Sure, Vulpera for instance seem likely, but the basis of all AR is from existing races - Zandalari are a modified Night Elf skeleton, just like Nightborne for instance.

The problem with the approach that High Elf exiles are a distinct grouping from other Elves, similar to how Dark Iron Dwarves are distinct from Bronzebeard, is that it is incorrect. Each Allied race that has been introduced is in some way genuinely distinct from their parent. High Elf exiles do not reach the criteria. This entire thread began as an attempt to invent differences that don't exist in an attempt to justify them as an Allied race, and yet in the end all that was managed was different hairstyles and tattoos. That is not enough.

Ion's comment was in no way a red herring. It emphasises that the Allied Race system, a system built to accommodate variants of existing races for players, cannot cope with the High Elf exiles as the level of variance is too small to justify their inclusion at the expense of faction diversity. Void Elves in fact are, objectively, extremely close to High Elves, which is unsurprising given they are another flavour. Void Elves are as close to Blood/High Elves as it is possible to get whilst still remaining a variant, given that the changes made to them were a minor adjustment in skin/hair tones and a new origin story.

As for the Afrasiabi comment, we have been over this. The question was not about High Elves, it was about high elf like skin tones on Void Elves. That these are possible is not an example volunteered by Afrasiabi himself, but was specifically framed that way by the Lost Codex interviewing team. That the Lost Codex interviewing team, while framing the question, made the point that Void Elves fill the High Elf niche within the Alliance (to which Afrasiabi was nodding along). That Afrasiabi's answer quickly segued from 'it's possible' to a commentary regarding the High Elf debate is seen on the forums by the developers, with an admonishment that people should 'be respectful'. I don't rely on the Afrasiabi comment because it wasn't about High Elves, it promised nothing, was given the briefest of answers and was actually more about people behaving themselves on the forums than about Void Elf skin tones.

As for ARs getting more rare, that is confirmed. Blizzard has said this themselves and it makes sense that don't wish the Alliance and Horde to collapse into indistinct blobs with too many options. It also makes sense in that excitement for new additions is dulled if they are a regular or semi-regular event. I also do not see Allied races and 'new' core races being seen as independent of each other. A new race is a new race, whether they be core or they be allied. The real distinction between core and allied race is not the allied race is a variant of an existing race, although the allied race system can accommodate that, it is that the Allied Race must be unlocked by a player through in game tasks on another character, whereas a core race can be created from the get go. Brand new races that are not variants of an existing race can be added through the Allied race system. And the Allied race system spares Blizzard the expense of creating a dedicated starting zone for that race, something which has proven a huge bottleneck for them in the past.

They're the most protested because they're the most popular. It just follows by nature. PewDiePie for instance has 100m subscribers now, how many haters do you think he has in comparison to someone who has 1m subscribers by comparison?

Also it was a Forum Ticket answerer, not a CM that said that.

As you note down below you don't spend time on the official forums, so I'll let you glean some info: Go into the US megathreads of the various Allied Races. ALL of them will have anywhere from 1-X posts dissenting the inclusion of that race as an AR and the more active threads will have more posts dissenting in comparison to the lesser active ones.

Pointing out that the High Elf request has the most dissenters isn't an argument against their inclusion, because every AR has dissenters. The High Elf request has both the most for and the most against because it is the most popular. Just like my PewDiePie example. You will find the MOST haters for him than any other YT creator by nature of him being the most popular.

A WoW example would be Sylvanas for instance. She's famous, so she has the most fans and also the most haters of the playerbase that enjoys Horde leaders. In comparison, Lor'themar who is less popular by definition has less haters but also less fans.

You're trying to make some argument which doesn't make sense. If something is popular it's going to have fans and haters, the more popular it is the more fans AND haters it will have.

In regards to the ticket, the person responding was a GM who also works on the forums which implies some cross-pollination with the CMs, as CMs work on the forums.

You are incorrect in believing that popularity leads to inevitable flame wars. I have been around long enough to remember when the most popular request for a new race was Pandaren, with common threads requesting their addition. The pushback against the idea was minimal. At the moment, the request for the High Elven exiles is the most popular, but no other Allied race proposal generates this level of backlash. As the CM/GM ticket response said it is literally impossible to please everyone. So on the one hand we have a request that generates a phenomenal amount of player arguments, and on the other we have a Blizzard developer team who prize faction diversity as an important and integral part of their game design. The pushback on the official forums is probably one reason why Blizzard rejected the High Elves exiles as a candidate and created the Void Elves instead as a variant.

How come it "feels to be the last opportunity", just because Allied Races will become more rare? If you're going to repeat what I already replied to above, then just re-read the above. Allied Races becoming rare doesn't mean High Elf AR opportunity won't happen, especially if Wildhammer are still valid. AR are not the vehicle taking place of new races.

Just like how in BFA Blizzard stated they're taking a break from Class sets, yet everyone seems to think Blizzard said "we're not doing Class sets anymore" and you see posts mention "I hOpE tHeY bRiNg ClAsS sEtS bAcK!!$!#" when it's like no-shit, they never stated such a thing in the first place.

Same thing with AR, Blizzard hasn't stated it's the only way they're going to bring new races now.

Wildhammer are a valid request, and not a parallel to High Elf exiles, because Wildhammer don't fall at the same point High Elven exiles fell, that is breaching faction diversity. I personally think they are so close to Bronzebeard Dwarves in so many respects that it would be a waste of a slot to add them, but they would also not come at the expense of the Horde so I have no strong opinion either way regarding them.

In regards to this Blizzcon being the last opportunity, in truth I think the last opportunity was lost a long time ago. The hardest truth to accept is that Void Elves almost certainly killed the High Elf Exile dream. When Blizzard created Void Elves, they knew exactly what they were doing and what the consequences of that decision would be in that it closed that particular door.

Blizzard almost certainly will not give the Alliance another thalassian elf model, to give the Alliance two to the Horde's one.

Blizzard almost certainly will not give the Horde a second thalassian elf model to justify giving the Alliance a second option, because then we end up with four thalassian elven races on top of two Kaldorei type elven races.

Blizzard almost certainly will not want to undermine the role of Void Elves as the Alliance's thalassian Elves. And let us not forget that Void Elves were explicitly designed to give the Alliance thalassian elves in such a way that respected the faction distinctiveness of the Horde.

All of the above is a given.

The next new races added (beyond those planned for BFA which haven't been announced yet), whether core or allied, are going to be some way off. Probably two years for the next set, maybe more. Once you get beyond BFA, you move beyond an expansion where multiple new races were added in a relatively short period of time meaning there was bound to be something added that appealed to everyone or improved their faction.

When we move back to new races being rare, the High Elven Exile community is staking it's hopes on the idea that Blizzard is going to use a new race slot for the Alliance, something that will only come every two or four years or maybe even longer, on something that is a.)a close variant of Void Elves and b.) already available as a Horde race. Not to mention that at the same time, the Horde would get either a.) a brand new race that will delight them or b.) a new race that, similar to the High Elven exiles, is barely a variant at all on an existing option. The backlash would either be from everyone if the Horde got a similar barely different race or double from the Alliance if they got a duplicate and the Horde got something new and amazing.

When I say this Blizzcon is the last opportunity, I mean in a wider sense that beyond this, the wider community will be a lot less tolerant of the possibility and will be a lot less eager to make the sacrifice to accommodate your near duplicate. But they won't have to, as stated, Void Elves really finished off the dream. Why on earth would Blizzard bother with a duplicate when giving High Elf like (not necessarily exact) skins to the Void Elves is an option, an option they are far from certain to take but still an option they have (and remember they remain convinced that this entire debate is driven by skin tones as Ion believed and as the Lost Codex guys reinforced and which I also agree with. We have people in this thread in the past 48 hours say skin tones would fix Void Elves for them, and as stated, anyone who says that has proven it is about the look rather than the lore).

I don't think boundaries will be relaxed either, but the rest of this part not commenting on because I don't agree Void Elves are a compromise for High Elves. Again, post-Ion - Afrasiabi's comment encourages continuation of this very request.

Again, I don't get why you keep citing Afrasiabi in relation to High Elf exiles when he was asked about skin tones on Void Elves. It's an entirely different point.

That faction boundaries probably won't be relaxed and that what we are heading towards is a classic type cold peace, where co-operation between the factions happens but PVP happens at the fringes, is something I am pleased with.

They will read this I'm sure, so just bolding it for them lol. Also, they specifically referred to the Silver Covenant, but as I said - SC is synonymous with High Elves at this point. If they were referring to High Elves then they'd be immediately wrong as we see High Elf presence in BfA since 8.0.

The Silver Covenant still exists, but they are still tied to Dalaran in lore, did not participate in the war and are likely heavily depleted in terms of numbers. With Alleria and the Void Elves, Blizzard is likely to begin using them as the foil to the Blood Elves in the future (as it makes more narrative sense). I don't expect a grand finale for the Silver Covenant, more that they will stay in the background as they are now surplus to requirements. If they ever come back, it will be because Dalaran plays a role in the story again.

Here's the thing. Someone can make an argument that Vereesa acts as a proxy for High Elves. Just as how people get all jumpy and excited over Dark Rangers happening because of Sylvanas's presence and how people act like Alleria's story = Void Elf story. Whether they're correct or incorrect on doing so is another story, but people do this all the time not just with Vereesa. Nor even the Elven sisters.

Some argued with Rexxar getting a new appearance to mean Ogres/Mok'nathal would join the Horde as an AR, yet no presence of them to be found. It's not uncommon at all that people do this. If they're right in doing so is another conversation entirely.

Although I have no further inclination to go deeper into that line of conversation.

Most of those were logical lines of thought. Before Void Elves, I would have argued Undead Elves would have been a logical Allied race, but Void Elves not fill the gothic thalassian elf niche and Undead Elves would contribute to Elf bloat. They are surplus to requirements in other words.

Rexxar and the Mok'Nathal was a good idea on the basis that they might have wanted to double dip the effort they spent on the Kul Tiran models by creating a second Allied race from it. Yet both Mok'Nathal and High Elven exiles face the same arguments, they've been ruled out in some way. As such, the presence of Rexxar and Veressa means they are their on their own terms, rather than as indicators of new allied races.

Having loads of fun, am honestly so glad for Classic to exist. Am getting to experience the beginning of the game and it feels good, progress is slow and steady and satisfying. I actually do not see myself buying new expansions for WoW unless they go on sale or have a feature I truly love (like check this I just saw Wish for potential new Worgen druid forms. If they come out with customization like that, I would have reasons to play more current WoW - because gearing in current doesn't feel as great as gearing in Classic. I'm content to finish up whatever content comes in BfA and then grind out all the collectables that exist and going back to Classic and completing what I want to on there.

Condolences for your guild choosing Shazzrah, that literally is the biggest content creator/streamer server so unless they had plans to play with those people they should've chose another server from the get-go. Like on the US side, all the streamers announced they'd be going to Faerlina and so recommended Herod for those not wanting to play with streamers.

Also I hear queues in EU are worse than on US, so that probably had a factor as well for queues lasting longer than US side.

It's definitely gotten more fun as I met guildies from retail who decided to play on the same server I was on. My original plan was going solo on a non-streamer server, though now if the guild falls apart (through boredom or something ) or something I will re-roll to Faerlina on US as a particular streamer is doing great things with creating a strong community presence/guild. That's where I'll go if I find myself playing solo!

I just couldn't justify a second MMO, which is what classic is. That, and I still enjoy retail although things are relatively quiet now given most of my guildies are on classic. Still, I got my Ahead of the Curve on Azshara, got my achievement run done and I am using the lack of raiding to do a few other things. It has worked out.

[Ielenia]

Because Blizzard felt there was a possible distinction to be made between the two.

The point of was: there was no distinction given, at all, to the Kul'Tirans, until it was time to make them into a playable race. We had Kul'Tirans in Legion, in a small area of Azsuna, and still they looked like a normal human.

Tell me, how could there possibly be a distinction between Blood Elves and the Elves you're asking for, whom you keep telling us have not done anything that would distinguish themselves from their Blood Elven kin.

There are no body difference between the high elves and blood elves solely because the high elves are not playable. If Blizzard decides to make them into a playable race, they will make them more distinct.

Yet, here you preach they would somehow look different from Blood Elves.

I do, because not only there are lore justifications for that, but also more lore could be created.

Therefore...

Nope. Wrong. Try again.

Select your own face palm gif from the internet and insert here.

'Facepalming' is basically my reaction as I read this post of yours and your previous one.

Sure, they can. Would it make for any length of compelling story? Lets look at Garrosh.. or Jaina.. or Sylvanas.. or any other bit of story they flip flopped on. Some of us prefer cohesion over changing things. This is why WoW isn't regarded; by any means of the thought, as an overall cohesive story. You have game elements that rule out other game elements, books that over rule game story, and devs making decisions outside all of those etc etc.

So... is your gripe about the model, or the story? Because until now you focused solely on the model.

Which is why I stick by Ions statement. You want to play a fair skinned and blonde haired elf the Horde is there for you.

Except I don't want to play a blood elf character because the blood elves are not high elves and do not share their current lore. And High elves would never be in the Horde.

You want a Thallasian Elf that looks different from Blood Elves? Void Elves.

I don't want to play a void elf. Because void elves are not high elves.