Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

factions arent ending. the war is

This likely correct. Whilst talk of the factions ending or being dissolved has been common place for a while now, the evidence of such a move is pretty thin.

At the moment, the main evidence seems to be that this is where the war campaign MIGHT conclude and the UI upgrades that were added in 8.2. Whilst these are definite indicators that an end to the factions are possible, they are far from conclusive.

When 8.2 was being previewed last Spring, Ion Hazzikostas gave an interview in Forbes Magazine.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/hnewman.../#79b98484a0e1

"Newman: Something that y'all have tried on the battleground side is to have the mercenary system. Is there the possibility that something like that might apply for PvE play as well? That you could decide as a member of the Horde that you're going to raid Crucible of Storms as an Alliance player for the evening?"

Hazzikostas: Honestly I think that's extremely unlikely for a few reasons. The Alliance-Horde divide is something that's integral to Warcraft. It's integral to the franchise, to the world, integral to World of Warcraft. The mercenary mode, it's very fourth-wall breaking, there's an artifice to it. But the premise is, you are disguising yourself. You're transforming into a member of the Alliance. And it's for random match activity only.

The Alliance player doesn't know this dwarf next to them is actually secretly a Horde player. As far as they can tell they're doing the Alliance battleground, fighting against the other team. And it was an extreme solution to a problem that warranted one, because queue times and matchmaking are a direct function of how many Horde players and how many Alliance players are queueing.

The people you can get switching over are actually 200% beneficial: You're not just adding an Alliance player to the pool. You're removing a Horde player from the pool and having them go over to the Alliance side. So you doubly decrease wait times.

For dungeons or raids, matchmaking isn't a faction challenge. There's no direct component there. And the challenges aren't the random match-made PvP groups, they're with organized groups.

Mercenary mode, even on the PvP side, is not designed to create social connections. This is not letting you make friends on the Horde, if you were Alliance or vice versa, who you're going to PvP with. It's just getting you a random battleground faster. Whereas the barriers for things like Mythic Plus groups or Mythic raiding guilds, those require that sustained ongoing social connection that's incompatible with the Horde-Alliance division that is so integral to World of Warcraft.

That quote was from an interview in April. Whilst I am sure some will argue he was lying in order to obfuscate the change, there are easier ways to obfuscate a future change rather than offering a full throated defense of the status quo. As a lawyer, Ion has carefully parsed his words in the past, and saying one thing only to be shown to have been lying a few months later is the kind of mistake that would haunt Blizzard in future.

We know from this interview that they think the faction divide is important. We know from the High Elf rejection that they think the existing races (with the clear exception of Pandaren) have strong ties to the existing factions.

And the entire war campaign ended with the reclamation of the soul of the Horde through Saurfang's sacrifice.

No. The factions aren't going anywhere. The 'last hurrah' for the faction war seems to be about settling the Horde and the Alliance into a permanent status quo vis a vis each other.

I predict we are going to have a situation where the core leaders of the factions are friendly and co-operative with each other. Each of the new threats faced by the Horde and Alliance will be dealt with co-operatively. However, outliers within each faction (Tyrande and Genn for the Alliance, Talanji for the Horde) will not accept the new status quo and they will justify war mode from 9.0 onwards, by asking players to declare for their faction and do what they can to hurt the other side. To my mind that is the likelier scenario.

[Aldo Hawk]

I would have to respectfully disagree with you here Aldo. The blood elf people are high elves, they simply renamed themselves. It is through them that you experience the high elf storyline. Their crushing defeat at the hands of Arthas and their rebirth as blood elves. To suggest they are not playable is a disingenuous argument.

High elves are not playable. Kul'tiran were not playable, Mag'har were not playable, Lightforged were not playable, Highmountain were not playable.

You are just blindly following Ion's words. Which strikes me as extremely unsurprising given the way you have been writing posts in here. Very poorly with many lacks of information and a clear desire for things to be your way through pointing at pure nuances and holding onto baseless conjectures.

High elves are Blood elves.

You perfectly know this is false, and only the other way is correct.

Silver Covenant, Allerian Stronghold or Quel'danil are not composed of Blood elves.

That statement is willfully ignorant. You ignored all background and context. But well, how not, as if you cared.

The elves calling themselves high elves are those who refused to follow the rest of their people with the name change. At a fundamental level, they are still the same race.

I am not repeating myself. This has been treated tons and tons and tons of time and you perfectly know my stance on it. Repeating it as if I needed to learn it is insulting. But yeah, keep repeating how 'bait-y' and rude is everyone else, bud.

On the other hand, void elves are blood elves who are transformed. Those blood elves were also around during the time of Arthas and also changed their names from being high elves. It is more accurate to state high elves and blood elves are the same people, but void elves are those elves transformed by void magic,

What you try to say here is unintelligible, since you try to go against any bit I say. However, you are agreeing that Void elves are not by any means High elves.

However, the 'what is what' argument has been already closed. Blood elves are from the High elf race. High elves are from (duh) the High elf race, and not Blood elves.

Too easy to understand.

This is only partially true here. Some high elves are against the Horde, such as Alleria and Vereesa. Some are not against them and are neutral and sometimes friendly towards the Horde. To suggest the high elves hate the horde is not making an honest argument.

To suggest a requested playable option has to be 100% one way is delusional.

The High elves, as per the group that is being talked about, hate the Horde as a whole. You will find outsiders in every race on Azeroth, it doesn't mean that an argument saying that 'X' group of them aren't generally a certain way is dishonest. In fact, ironically, saying that is pretty dishonest in itself.

Now, to address another argument.
It is my understanding those wanting them playable are offering to change them. I have several issues with the notion for the following reason.

First, the appearance of high elves and blood elves is the same because they are the same people, with the same origins. Their lore has established their appearance ever since the Warcraft RTS games. Changing them would be a pure violation of the original lore, a lore, which by those of the pro side, state they wish to protect. On the other hand, changing it in such a manner means the lore no longer matters.

Except lore showing things they were not showing before as a somewhat retroactive world building to put things in a more differentiated way while respecting the lore is more than possible and lore friendly.

And even without doing something like that, you are saying that the lore can't go forward, since changing it would mean the lore would no longer matter.

What I see here is that you actually don't care about the lore as long as the Alliance don't get a playable option that by lore is part of that faction.

Second, even if we ignore the first, if the reason you like high elves is because of the original lore, then does it not contradict your stance to change them? Why would you change what you originally admired? It becomes more of a matter of title, then, rather than it being about the actual race and lore itself. Perhaps I am wrong, but it just seems too...superficial? Struggling to find the right word.

Because it doesn't and things aren't black and white?

Small changes to change silhouette and certain aspects that would let players distinguish things from distance have been suggested and discussed. Not even the 'crystal elves' have been openly talked about because overall that is not desired, it would simply be a whole different thing.

I find funny to see how the same people that claim High elves are Blood elves and that the Alliance should not get them because they look alike even tho they are part of the lore of the Alliance are also saying that the request is superficial and shallow.

But yeah, it has become too normal. Not that I find strange to see shameless commentary as me or other requesters being disingenuous or dishonest after proving time and time again that it happens to be more on the contrary. It has become too normal. What a shame.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm just bluntly pointing out that the people who want playable high elves just want to play pink elves on the Alliance. It's time to end the BS and realize that the vast majority of their fanboys couldn't care less if their high elf wasn't actually a member of any high elf faction, because they'd still RP as one. There's no ulterior motive driving the vast majority of these people.

Sadly, this is what happened with Mag'har. And is something that should not be pursued actively again.

[Broflake]

High elves are not playable. Kul'tiran were not playable, Mag'har were not playable, Lightforged were not playable, Highmountain were not playable.

Kul'tirans, different people, different region.
Mag'har, different people, different region.
LFD, different people, different region.
HM tauren, different people, different region.
High elves, same people as blood elves, same region as blood elves.
This is why it is not false to state blood elves are the high elves you want.

You are just blindly following Ion's words. Which strikes me as extremely unsurprising given the way you have been writing posts in here. Very poorly with many lacks of information and a clear desire for things to be your way through pointing at pure nuances and holding onto baseless conjectures.

This is purely an ad hominem with an emotional base which has no contribution whatsoever. You should mind yourself given this is everything you accuse me of doing.

You perfectly know this is false, and only the other way is correct.

Prove me wrong.
Prove that the high elf people come from a different region. Prove they are not from quel'thalas. Prove their origins are different.
Prove they are not the same people, whose name the blood elves left behind.
I place these requests, and no one meets them.

That statement is willfully ignorant. You ignored all background and context. But well, how not, as if you cared.

This is not a proper refutation of my point. Take the opportunity to go back, and not dodge because you cannot handle the truth.


I am not repeating myself. This has been treated tons and tons and tons of time and you perfectly know my stance on it. Repeating it as if I needed to learn it is insulting. But yeah, keep repeating how 'bait-y' and rude is everyone else, bud.

What you try to say here is unintelligible,

"I do not like what i am reading, or I have difficulty following, therefore you cannot articulate yourself."
Slow down when reading and you would understand it.

However, you are agreeing that Void elves are not by any means High elves.

COrrect, I stated they WERE high elves, because they WERE blood elves, who WERE high elves. It is not difficult to follow. You have what you wanted in origins. You just ignore it because it is not the aesthetics you desired.

However, the 'what is what' argument has been already closed. Blood elves are from the High elf race. High elves are from (duh) the High elf race, and not Blood elves.

There is no from. THey ARE that race. This is literally a matter of semantics.

To suggest a requested playable option has to be 100% one way is delusional.

To ignore the facts in front of you is in itself, stubborness and nothing more. You ignore the context and facts of the discussion to yell things are not the way you want them to be. It is like someone who receive a grilled cheese sandwich, but does not want it because it was cut into triangles and not squares.

The High elves, as per the group that is being talked about, hate the Horde as a whole.

This is false given there is no lore to suggest it outside the SC high elves who are not representative of the race as a whole.
Let us stick to the facts of the discussion.

You will find outsiders in every race on Azeroth, it doesn't mean that an argument saying that 'X' group of them aren't generally a certain way is dishonest. In fact, ironically, saying that is pretty dishonest in itself.

It is dishonest to make a claim, then when it is pointed out this is not the case, to insist otherwise without providing any citation.
If you wanted to go the round about way, since blood elves are high elves, they don't all hate the horde and even work with them.

Except lore showing things they were not showing before as a somewhat retroactive world building to put things in a more differentiated way while respecting the lore is more than possible and lore friendly.

Except for the fact that the lore is clear and concrete on this matter without any room for differentiation. Hence, why you received void elves.

And even without doing something like that, you are saying that the lore can't go forward, since changing it would mean the lore would no longer matter.

Wrong. I am stating going against the lore means lore does not matter. Which is what you desire. You want to change the lore to justify high elves. Sorry, but high elves take the same culture as blood elves. So anything they have, blood elves would and should have as well.

What I see here is that you actually don't care about the lore as long as the Alliance don't get a playable option that by lore is part of that faction.

This is just an argument about dishonesty, one you cannot, and will never be able to priove since it is an accusation based on emotion.
Prove me wrong and I'll change my mind, but you have yet to do anything than make accusations which hold no weight. If you can do nothing but make accusations and you are incapable of refuting my arguments with lore, then you have no argument, and ergo, high elves cannot be justified as playable.

Because it doesn't

But it does based on their lore and origins.

and things aren't black and white?

Demonstrate a notable change to differentiate them that is friendly to lore.

Small changes to change silhouette and certain aspects that would let players distinguish things from distance have been suggested and discussed.

So. Void elves.
No need to make high elves playable then.

Not even the 'crystal elves' have been openly talked about because overall that is not desired, it would simply be a whole different thing.

And because void elves give a different feel as well. You are arguing for redundancy in the name of pale skin.

I find funny to see how the same people that claim High elves are Blood elves and that the Alliance should not get them because they look alike even tho they are part of the lore of the Alliance are also saying that the request is superficial and shallow.

Except aesthetics is a part of gameplay, and you are demanding a race playable on the horde already. Their story is not comparable to the races you listed dude. Sorry.

But yeah, it has become too normal. Not that I find strange to see shameless commentary as me or other requesters being disingenuous or dishonest after proving time and time again that it happens to be more on the contrary. It has become too normal. What a shame.

More accusations without substance.

[FlubberPuddy]

I predict we are going to have a situation where the core leaders of the factions are friendly and co-operative with each other. Each of the new threats faced by the Horde and Alliance will be dealt with co-operatively. However, outliers within each faction (Tyrande and Genn for the Alliance, Talanji for the Horde) will not accept the new status quo and they will justify war mode from 9.0 onwards, by asking players to declare for their faction and do what they can to hurt the other side. To my mind that is the likelier scenario.

There's also the subject that this response is focused on Mercernary mode, and Ion is also pointing out how [it] is very "fourth-wall breaking" because you transform into an Alliance member.

Nothing said there would preclude them from adding "Cooperative Mode" where you decide your character wants to fight for the Alliance (or the Horde).

I think the question should've asked plainly, "Is it possible that one day my Tauren feel the Alliance is a better fit for them, and be an 'Alliance Tauren'?" something like that would've probably received a different answer.

As you said, Ion's a lawyer, he's carefully parsed his words in the past. He clearly there can say he was simply mentioning Mercenary mode and would be completely correct in that regard with that response he gave.

"Could my character raid as Alliance for the evening?" is clearly different from asking, "Can I one day change my Troll's faction allegiance?"

- - - Updated - - -

Especially take into account, look at Sylvanas loyalists. These players want to "be on the faction Sylvanas is on", how does one navigate that within the hard-set Horde/Alliance.

She's clearly her own entity now with her own followers.

[Fyersing]

High elves, same people as blood elves, same region as blood elves.

The overwhelming majority of High Elves seem to live in/around Dalaran, and it's entirely possible that some of these people have lived in/around Dalaran for thousands of years; with most of them being either partially or entirely disassociated with Quel'thalas, both socially and politically.

It's probably wrong to call them the same people, and it's definitely wrong to imply they occupy the same region.

[FlubberPuddy]

The overwhelming majority of High Elves seem to live in/around Dalaran, and it's entirely possible that some of these people have lived in/around Dalaran for thousands of years; with most of them being either partially or entirely disassociated with Quel'thalas, both socially and politically.

It's probably wrong to call them the same people, and it's definitely wrong to imply they occupy the same region.

Chronicles 1 (or maybe 3?) noted that when Dalaran was first sieged 3000 years ago, all civilians were evacuated which includes High Elves. We also know that in WC3 which is what 5ish years before WoW? That there were High Elves in the Alliance who refused to go back home despite their King declaring separation from the Alliance.

There's also nothing that says "every single High Elf in Dalaran followed Kael'thas back to Silvermoon" as clearly we can see that from the High Elves that have lived there to even today in WoW.

So yeah, thousands of years to disassociate with the Kingdom of Quel'thalas. Not to mention that in IRL it can take as short as a year or few to become an entirely different person socially and politically. And physically it can take as little as 3 months to change your physique greatly.

[Broflake]

They basically said 'no' to Classic servers for how many years again, mentioning the hurdles and all... and even giving that super-famous line "you think you do, but you don't".

Let's keep beating this dead horse of an argument.
Private servers = violation of IP rights.
Classic WoW= protects IP and nets them money.

High elves= does not protect IP, does not net them money.
If the latter were true, they'd be around during WOD when they lost tons of subs now wouldn't they?

No, they are not playable. That's false. As a blood elf, Veressa Windrunner is not one of my playable races' notable NPCs from which I would interact from time to time. As a blood elf, the Silver Covenant is hostile toward me. As a blood elf, walking into Stormwind flags me for PvP against each and every NPC and player within the city. As a blood elf, all the Horde races are friendly toward me. As a blood elf, I cannot be Alliance.

Lore wise. Blood elves are high elves.
The rest is just complaining about them being horde and not getting to play on the blue side.
Literally this comes down to "I want to be a blood elf but I don't want to be horde!"

So, no. The high elf group is unavailable to the players.

Neither are the fogsail humans for the Horde. Does not mean they should be playable for the Horde now should they?

I'll name two: blood elves being affected by fel magic radiation;

Which is stated by the developers to be cosmetic only, and is also being cleansed by the sunwell. So you'd need to completely break the lore regarding the sunwell to make this a thing. Lore doesn't matter long as it gets you what you want.

and the fact high elves refused to depend on "mana vampirism" to deal with the consequences of their mana addiction.

Arcane is arcane is arcane. This is a fact in the game that the magic type is the same no matter the source. Mana wyrms? Arcane. Arcane crystals? Arcane.
Fel crystals? Fel
Demons? Fel.

So your argument does not work.
The quel'lithien high elves also demonstrate they were just as affected by the sunwell as blood elves. So you have no basis to say they are different since those were high elves who were not around fel radiation and refuse mana vampirism.

The only difference shown in WC3 was skin and hair color, and how the ears are pointed

Which is the same case here dude.

It breaks the lore because the high elves lean heavily toward the Alliance, and they basically hate their green-eye cousins. Also, which blood elves have blue eyes? I don't recall seeing any.

It doesn't break the lore since 99% of them left the alliance in WC2 and the remaining 90% of their population went Horde. SO you are false in both aspects.
Second, they don't hate their green eyed cousins. Both Alleria and Vereesa both assist them willingly calling silvermoon their home. This is purely trying to force a non-existent narrative.
As for blood elves

Laneesh steelweaver, there is also another named NPC ( i cannot recall his name)
There are frostmage blood elves, sunreaver captain, sunreaver assassin blood elves who have blue eyes.

Irrelevant because the blood elves of today are not the high elves of before. They changed. The high elves of before would not have sided with the Horde, for one.

Very relevant because Lor'themar and any playable blood elf is old enough to be around for the events of WC2 and onwards when they were called high elves. So you are false in arguing they are diferent and that they changed.
You're right, the high elves of the past would not have allied with the Horde, but then WC3 happened and that changed everything.

They are not a compromise, and they are blood elves with hair/skin color change. Anyone can see that, since you go to Silvermoon, which is Horde territory, to recruit them.

What were blood elves called before they had that name?

Void powers that would be used against the Alliance and against the high elves, if they weren't banished from Silvermoon.

Which does not matter because it never happened now did it?

It does apply because, as explained, they don't need to 'consciously' drain fel magic to be addicted to it. Silvermoon is littered with fel crystals radiating fel magic. Why do you think all blood elves had green eyes if "only a few" drained fel magic?

This old argument is getting as tired as this entire demand for high elves.
Contamination=/= draining.
Magical addiction= all high elves/blood elves.
Let alone TBC happened 12 years ago, contamination is being cleansed and will wear off. So...let this dead horse of an argument be.

What is also fact is that the high elves refused to depend on mana vampirism to sate their addictions and had to find other ways to deal with their mana addiction, while the high elves sated themselves on mana from living beings.

Which was shown to not be any different as demonstrated by the high elves of quel'lithien.

It doesn't matter the OOC reason. What matters is that it happened and can be used as IC reasoning for that.

The OOC reason matters because gameplay comes before your RP.
Warriors exist now, so, your IC reason does not exist either. Move on from it.

There is no 'ignoring' of anything. I didn't say fel magic corruption would make them frail like babies.

Did you not say it would weaken them?

There is no "suddenly" and there is no "for no reason". This is just you making a strawman.

Nope, I am working with the argument you presented. Address what I stated.

No, this is you being wrong and intentionally misrepresenting what I wrote despite me correcting this several times already, and also ignoring lore:
"Courtesy of their exposure to fel magic (the practice of which spread in a similar fashion to the orcs' own exposure to the substance, tainting even those in its proximity who chose not to dabble in it), blood elf eyes produce an emerald glow. This is a natural reaction to spending time around fel magic.[37]"

And CHris Metzen explained it all away so............in this case it doesn't work.
Most blood elves did not use fel.
Contamination=/= changing.
green orcs are the same as maghar orcs.

Cleansing them of the corruption does not mean removing all the negative consequences.

Of which there are none per the devs and the game.
Cleansing also means it would remove any negative effects as well. Find a different argument.

There is absolutely zero 'moving of goal posts' since I never made the claim that fel magic immediately weakens you, which you accused me of stating.

You stated the usage of fel magic can weaken the user.
You then said "well not immediately weaken!".
That is a shifting of the goal posts, you are attempting to change the conditions.
The fel magic didn't weaken them period so we can move on from this argument.
The felbllood elves thing does nothing besides be pedantic.

It's not "just a title." It's allegiance, culture and past. The high elves' culture had to change to reflect their new status as homeless, as exiles. Their past now reflects their present with their hate toward the blood elves for being kicked out of their homes.

1. The only high elves ever kicked out were in quel'lithien, and they are dead. Lor'themar tried to help them and bring them back, they refused. There are no high elves exiled outside of the void elves, and that is because they attacked the Horde at Lordaeron and are a danger to the sunwell.

2. It is them clinging to a dying past. The culture is the same as blood elves as shown in architecture.

3. It has nothing to do with allegiance, stop forcing this false narrative.

Where's the official info regarding the dates of his banishment? Other than that, assuming your dates is correct, it still assumes the whole of TBC with blood elves as enemies of the Alliance.

Except for the fact that the only time the blood elves came into conflict with the alliance is in WotLK, and they were receiving aid from the alliance through the Dranei.
Furthermore, it is based on the lore in the story provided through the recruitement quest. We know it was after TBC since the sunwell was lit, but we know their exile would mean never having the opportunity to be in WotLK and onwards where they fought the alliance.

Why not? Because you say so? I mean, the void elves are literally "a fringe group". Even more so than high elves are.

Because Blizzard demonstrates it again and again. Every race has a fringe group, and that does not mean they will become playable.
Void elves were an exception to the rule that proves it. Otherwise, where are my Horde humans, dranei, eredar etc etc etc.
It isn't a good argument to use when considering the gameplay taking precedent over your desires.
Through lore you don't have an argument to strongly justify them.r
Gameplay simply doesn't allow it without breaking the former.

It's not semantics. They are a separate group with their own leadership, their own culture that changed after their exile, and their own politics and beliefs, separate from the blood elves.

The high elves don't have a leadership. Vereesa heads the SC. Alleria heads the void elves.
Their culture is the same as the blood elves with no demonstrated differences. They are also not exiled.
The only thing different is politics. Cool, sometimes Humans and Orcs assist the horde and alliance. Does not mean they should be playable for the other side.

Nope. Wrong. Try again.

Okay, what are your reasons besides lore? Lore is secondary and it is a fact that blood elves are high elves and the difference is name and politics only.

Nah, it has weight. It's a valid reason, especially since it would have been so damn easy to make Umbric and his group high elves instead of blood elves.

Which would mean NOTHING in terms of gameplay and their appearance.
They could literally say "and all high elves went back to silvermoon except the ones who got killed by void elves.", and would it affect gameplay? No.


Edit: Flubber, that argument does not work considering Kael'thas was then present as a council of six member. So this notion of them being dissociated from the kingdom of quel'thalas does not work when it was stated the two remained intimately connected until the fall of quel'thalas.

[Chain Chungus]

With factions merging, there is no longer any reason to restrict High Elves. The idea of stealing something from the other faction becomes a moot point.

[Kyphael]

With factions merging, there is no longer any reason to restrict High Elves. The idea of stealing something from the other faction becomes a moot point.

They're not "merging." If anything, we'll get cross-faction instanced game play but it ends there. They just updated the character select screen to display Horde/Alliance emblems next to every character. That's indicative on a technical level they have no intention to get rid of the faction division. They wouldn't have cared to implement that change otherwise if they knew there would no longer be two factions an year from now when 9.0 launches.

[Ielenia]

Let's keep beating this dead horse of an argument.

Wrong argument. My argument has zero to do with pirate servers and IP rights, but about Blizzard's almost blatant "no" regarding vanilla WoW servers. Way to miss the point.

Lore wise. Blood elves are high elves.

And lore-wise, Kul'Tirans are humans.

Neither are the fogsail humans for the Horde. Does not mean they should be playable for the Horde now should they?

I'm curious: why shouldn't they be?

Which is stated by the developers to be cosmetic only, and is also being cleansed by the sunwell. So you'd need to completely break the lore regarding the sunwell to make this a thing. Lore doesn't matter long as it gets you what you want.

One: the cleansing isn't immediate; and two, cleaning the fel corruption does not mean removing the consequences of said corruption. Also, nice contradiction: if it's "cosmetic only", how can it be "cleansed by the sunwell"?

Arcane is arcane is arcane. This is a fact in the game that the magic type is the same no matter the source. Mana wyrms? Arcane. Arcane crystals? Arcane.
Fel crystals? Fel
Demons? Fel.

So your argument does not work.
The quel'lithien high elves also demonstrate they were just as affected by the sunwell as blood elves. So you have no basis to say they are different since those were high elves who were not around fel radiation and refuse mana vampirism.

Again, you completely miss the point. By not feeding on the mana of living beings, the high elves had much harder time finding mana to sate their addiction, meaning they suffered much more from the pains and consequences of magic withdrawal than blood elves, meaning they had to find other ways to help withstand it.

Which is the same case here dude.

What, really? Have you ever played World of Warcraft... at all, since vanilla? Thalassian elves are shorter and leaner than night elves.

It doesn't break the lore since 99% of them left the alliance in WC2 and the remaining 90% of their population went Horde. SO you are false in both aspects.

I'm not. High elves are not friendly to the Horde. High elves are mostly depicted as Alliance-leaning, with the only thalassian elves being friendly toward the Horde are blood elves.

Second, they don't hate their green eyed cousins. Both Alleria and Vereesa both assist them willingly calling silvermoon their home. This is purely trying to force a non-existent narrative.

Someone did not play the 'Purge of Dalaran' scenario, back in MoP... where Veressa gleefully gave you orders to kill blood elves in Dalaran after Jaina gave the order to expel them from the city...

As for blood elves

Laneesh steelweaver, there is also another named NPC ( i cannot recall his name)
There are frostmage blood elves, sunreaver captain, sunreaver assassin blood elves who have blue eyes.

To be honest, I do not have a concrete explanation for those. It could be that they're actually high elves, or just blood elves and Blizzard's NPC design algorithm must have a small bug or something to have picked a HE eye glow.

Very relevant because Lor'themar and any playable blood elf is old enough to be around for the events of WC2 and onwards when they were called high elves. So you are false in arguing they are diferent and that they changed.
You're right, the high elves of the past would not have allied with the Horde, but then WC3 happened and that changed everything.

And the high elves of today are the same of those of the past. They did not change like the blood elves did.

Which does not matter because it never happened now did it?

It does, because it speaks to intention and consequences.

Which was shown to not be any different as demonstrated by the high elves of quel'lithien.

Um... what? The elves of Quel'lithien suffered with the magic withdrawal too, dude.

The OOC reason matters because gameplay comes before your RP.
Warriors exist now, so, your IC reason does not exist either. Move on from it.

It doesn't matter, because OOC reasons are not lore.

Did you not say it would weaken them?

This is not a dichotomy. There is a spectrum You can be 'weakened' without being reduced to the same toughness and stamina of a newborn baby. A reduction of 5% (to put a number of it) is still "weakened".

Nope, I am working with the argument you presented. Address what I stated.

I don't address strawman arguments, since, again, there is no "suddenly" and no "for no reason" in my arguments.

And CHris Metzen explained it all away so............in this case it doesn't work.
Most blood elves did not use fel.
Contamination=/= changing.
green orcs are the same as maghar orcs.

Except I'm not saying they'd change like felblood elves. But a weakening is possible within the lore. And I'm not addressing the green orc/mag'har orc since it's off-topic, but I'll say I found no information stating that both are the exact same with skin color being the sole difference.

You stated the usage of fel magic can weaken the user.
You then said "well not immediately weaken!".
That is a shifting of the goal posts, you are attempting to change the conditions.
The fel magic didn't weaken them period so we can move on from this argument.
The felbllood elves thing does nothing besides be pedantic.

It's not a shifting of the goal posts because I [B]never claimed an "immediate" change. You were the one who inserted that word there and tried to pass off as me having made that claim. I simply corrected you.

1. The only high elves ever kicked out were in quel'lithien, and they are dead. Lor'themar tried to help them and bring them back, they refused. There are no high elves exiled outside of the void elves, and that is because they attacked the Horde at Lordaeron and are a danger to the sunwell.

Source that only the elves of Quel'lithien were kicked, please?

2. It is them clinging to a dying past. The culture is the same as blood elves as shown in architecture.

"Dying past"? Are the thalassian elves dying, and I didn't know? Or are you implying that high elves and blood elves have a different past, and therefore different races?

3. It has nothing to do with allegiance, stop forcing this false narrative.

Yes, it has to do with allegiances. Weird how you think an allegiance to the Alliance wouldn't affect relations with another group that is allied with the Horde.

Except for the fact that the only time the blood elves came into conflict with the alliance is in WotLK, and they were receiving aid from the alliance through the Dranei.

The blood elves fought against the Alliance already in TBC. There were conflict points between the two parts.

Furthermore, it is based on the lore in the story provided through the recruitement quest. We know it was after TBC since the sunwell was lit, but we know their exile would mean never having the opportunity to be in WotLK and onwards where they fought the alliance.

Again, care to cite a more precise quote? I don't feel like having to watch entire videos of the recruitment scenarios just to find this elusive claim of yours.

Because Blizzard demonstrates it again and again. Every race has a fringe group, and that does not mean they will become playable.

So what? That doesn't mean that just because they're a 'fringe group' they would never be a playable race.

Void elves were an exception to the rule that proves it.

There is no such "rule."

Otherwise, where are my Horde humans, dranei, eredar etc etc etc.

If you want them, why don't you start asking for those, then?

It isn't a good argument to use when considering the gameplay taking precedent over your desires.

Gameplay has zero impediments for a playable high elf race, mind you.

Through lore you don't have an argument to strongly justify them.

We do. And we have mentioned it several times. Hell, even a former Blizzard CM chimed in, in favor of playable high elves.

The high elves don't have a leadership. Vereesa heads the SC. Alleria heads the void elves.

If the playable high elves came from the Silver Covenant group, the we'd have a leader, wouldn't we?

Their culture is the same as the blood elves with no demonstrated differences. They are also not exiled.

They are exiled. They refused to resort to the same 'mana draining' tactics as the blood elves and are at war with them due to their allegiance with the Alliance.

Okay, what are your reasons besides lore? Lore is secondary and it is a fact that blood elves are high elves and the difference is name and politics only.

No, my reasons are purely lore. Which I have stated numerous times already throughout this thread.

Which would mean NOTHING in terms of gameplay and their appearance.

Like I said, I don't care about gameplay, I care about the lore.

[Broflake]

Wrong argument. My argument has zero to do with pirate servers and IP rights, but about Blizzard's almost blatant "no" regarding vanilla WoW servers. Way to miss the point.

That is because I provided a COUNTER argument to your assertion. That is what we do in discussions.
The comparison of Classic to High elves does not work.
Particularly because they explained they simply had no plans to do it, not that they never would or that they were not open to the idea. They simply felt there was not enough interest at the time they were asked.
This is not the case with high elves.

And lore-wise, Kul'Tirans are humans.

From a different region and culture.
Not the case with high elves who come from the same region and culture as blood elves.

I'm curious: why shouldn't they be?

*Clears throat* If you want to play a smelly human, the alliance is waiting for you. Sorry, bit of humor there.
Basically its because humans are accessible already through the alliance.

One: the cleansing isn't immediate;

"If you want ot show you were already cleansed by the sunwell, you can do that [golden eyes].
Per the devs.

and two, cleaning the fel corruption does not mean removing the consequences of said corruption. [/qute]
The only consequence being a cosmetic one and nothing else.

Also, nice contradiction: if it's "cosmetic only", how can it be "cleansed by the sunwell"?

THis is just you being obtuse.

Again, you completely miss the point. By not feeding on the mana of living beings, the high elves had much harder time finding mana to sate their addiction, meaning they suffered much more from the pains and consequences of magic withdrawal than blood elves, meaning they had to find other ways to help withstand it.

Mmm, not really? It was really on a case by case basis. Lor'themar was not affected by the loss of the sunwell nearly as much as Liadrin was affected. They all suffered equally, and whether or not they found enough is really just on the individual.

What, really? Have you ever played World of Warcraft... at all, since vanilla? Thalassian elves are shorter and leaner than night elves.

I think the point you are missing in all of this, is the fact that their appearance was demonstratably different both in the past in other games, and in lore. The argument of them appearing the same in vanilla WoW, is simply a matter of a lack of game design at the time, and not an accurate reflection of lore. Your intent on addressing this tangent and pretending it holds any meaning is a waste of time on both our parts.

I'm not. High elves are not friendly to the Horde. High elves are mostly depicted as Alliance-leaning, with the only thalassian elves being friendly toward the Horde are blood elves.

Yeah, you are, you're trying to shift away constantly to try and maintain your argument. THe fact of the matter is the only high elves left are friendly, neutral, or not friendly is on a case by case basis. Again, you only have the SC who are alliance leaning, and they make no effort to fight the Horde in all of BFA. They only show up when the horde goes against itself. There just isn't anything to say "the majority of high elves are pro-alliance.".
I would be in agreement with you if this was the case but I simply don't see any lore to support the idea.

Someone did not play the 'Purge of Dalaran' scenario, back in MoP... where Veressa gleefully gave you orders to kill blood elves in Dalaran after Jaina gave the order to expel them from the city...

Someone did not play the isle of thunder scenarios where Vereesa gave it up, or read the three sisters comic where she went back on the notion and instead returned to believing in the redemption of her people. This is a case of older lore being overwritten by new lore.

To be honest, I do not have a concrete explanation for those. It could be that they're actually high elves, or just blood elves and Blizzard's NPC design algorithm must have a small bug or something to have picked a HE eye glow.

Well...of course you don't...because it was intentional. It was asked of the developers previously if it was intentional and the answer was "yes".

And the high elves of today are the same of those of the past. They did not change like the blood elves did.

In terms of name perhaps but nothing else.

It does, because it speaks to intention and consequences.

None of which is ever stated so again, this is just a "well what if they did!?" which is a notion not worth entertaining because it never happened and we don't know the intent and consequences for something that never occurred.

Um... what? The elves of Quel'lithien suffered with the magic withdrawal too, dude.

You seem to have completely missed my point entirely.
My point is that the high elve sof quel'lithien suffered from withdrawal just like the blood elves.
They also benefited from the restored sunwell, just like the blood elves did.
So there is nothing to suggest they were any different in terms of how they have been affected by those events. Which was my point.

It doesn't matter, because OOC reasons are not lore.

Yes, it does, because by lore, they had warriors, EVERYONE has warriors, and the only reason they didn't have warriors was because of gameplay reasons on their release.
This is too much reaching on your part.

This is not a dichotomy. There is a spectrum You can be 'weakened' without being reduced to the same toughness and stamina of a newborn baby. A reduction of 5% (to put a number of it) is still "weakened".

Dude, I'll be real with you, you have nothing to support this notion period so give it up instead of trying to force a non-existent point which was resolved by the re-ignition of the sunwell. "BUT FEL!" doesn't matter anymore. TBC came and went. That storyline is closed up.

I don't address strawman arguments, since, again, there is no "suddenly" and no "for no reason" in my arguments.

Well, that is because in an argument I am going to characterize your argument accordingly. It is indeed sudden, and with no reason.

Except I'm not saying they'd change like felblood elves. But a weakening is possible within the lore. And I'm not addressing the green orc/mag'har orc since it's off-topic, but I'll say I found no information stating that both are the exact same with skin color being the sole difference.

Besides the fact that mag'har literally just means "not brown"?
Besides the fact there is no lore saying they are different outside of cosmetic appearance?
Besides the fact that it has explicitly been stated as purely cosmetic by the devs?
Besides the fact that NONE of this matters after the restoration of the sunwell?

It's not a shifting of the goal posts because I [B]never claimed an "immediate" change. You were the one who inserted that word there and tried to pass off as me having made that claim. I simply corrected you.

Yeah you shifted it.
Anyway, as I stated earlier, this is a dead end discussion point because TBC came and went. This suggestion is not a working one.

Source that only the elves of Quel'lithien were kicked, please?

The fact that the only elves ever exiled were those of quel'lithien as stated in Shadows of the Sun and BE lore of TBC?
Vereesa isn't exiled, she was able to enter silvermoon and the kingdom of quel'thalas.
Alleria was able to come and go as she pleased until she was a threat to the silvermoon as stated by lor'themar.
The fact that the high elves are able to make pilgrimage to the sunwell.
When you are exiled you can't do any of it, like Umbric and ALleria demonstrate.

"Dying past"? Are the thalassian elves dying, and I didn't know? Or are you implying that high elves and blood elves have a different past, and therefore different races?

I like how you go from high elf, to thalassian elf, in an attempt to shift things again, then attempt the weakest attempt at a GOTCHA!
The high elves cling to a dying past, with their name. This means eventually, those who call themselves high elves will go POOF.
Does this mean the race is gone? Nope. Blood elves are that race. Seriously, focus on making an actual argument, and not trying to create non-existent holes.

Yes, it has to do with allegiances. Weird how you think an allegiance to the Alliance wouldn't affect relations with another group that is allied with the Horde.

It affects them so much that Lor'themar allows them to come and go from quel'thalas as they please.
It is all about allegiances even though you have high elves who ask horde adventurers to kill alliance.

The blood elves fought against the Alliance already in TBC. There were conflict points between the two parts.

I'll have to replay the content since it has been years, but to my knowledge, the conflict was with the blood elves following kael'thas.

Again, care to cite a more precise quote? I don't feel like having to watch entire videos of the recruitment scenarios just to find this elusive claim of yours.

Sure. I'll dig it up for you when I have a better opportunity for it. Bit busy this week.

So what? That doesn't mean that just because they're a 'fringe group' they would never be a playable race.

It kind of does. Fringe groups just show the world is more alive and realistic. That there are individuals who view things differently. Gameplay, however, doesn't view things this way. It simply says "I have a race that is playable, we don't need to replicate it.".
Otherwise, by your argument, MMOs need to make a different human race for every different region. THis is unnecessary and unhealthy for game design.

There is no such "rule."

Mmkay. Just easily observed if you pay attention to it.

If you want them, why don't you start asking for those, then?

Probably because the same principles which place me against high elves also place me against humans for the Horde? Why ask a question to an answer you know? Or were you hoping for a contradiction?

Gameplay has zero impediments for a playable high elf race, mind you.

Which is why it is cited as a large reason by Blizzard, specifically by Ion. Seriously, you can't ignore it just because you don't like it.

We do. And we have mentioned it several times. Hell, even a former Blizzard CM chimed in, in favor of playable high elves.

I have demonstrated how those mentions simply do not work.
I don't care about a CM. Their job is literally to make people happy so they can keep playing the game. Platitudes are just the carrot on the stick dude.

If the playable high elves came from the Silver Covenant group, the we'd have a leader, wouldn't we?

And suddenly, high elves, a dying race, were invigorated out of nowhere because they wanted to join Vereesa who lives in Dalaran, the neutral city, while fighitng for the alliance, a non-neutral party, after being neutral since MoP!
I don't know man, it seems like a lot more trouble than its worth for a blood elf copy. Not saying you don't have a point, but lore wise, that is a hell of a reqwrite and in gameplay design, its a clone.

They are exiled. They refused to resort to the same 'mana draining' tactics as the blood elves and are at war with them due to their allegiance with the Alliance.

Cool, where are the high elves in BFA?
The portal keepers?
The fact that Vereesa and one other high elf are present when the horde is having a civil war again and working with the alliance?
That's more neutral behavior dude. Sorry.
For being so against the Horde, they've never done anything after MoP when they resolved their issues and when Vereesa forgave them and blamed Garrosh instead.

No, my reasons are purely lore. Which I have stated numerous times already throughout this thread.

So...ask Blizzard to expand the lore on void elves? Or RP accordingly?

Like I said, I don't care about gameplay, I care about the lore.

Gameplay comes before lore.

[Strippling]

And that's what most proposed solutions are, a solution for many. Because there's two extremes.

1) People that don't want any blue eyed Thalassian Elf playable on Alliance side. These are also the same people that don't want factions to end, cuz they'll be so mad if people can play Blood Elves on Alliance side.
2) People that want High Elves as a full-fledged race on Alliance side. These are also the same people that don't want to accept that blood elves are the continuation of high elves, that blood elves in every essence are high elves. These are the same people who are mad that the high elves joined the Horde and can't accept the direction their story went.

Fixed that for ya.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't see high elves happening. If factions merge (I highly doubt but let's assume for a moment) then high elves would be extremely unlikely as blood elves (aka the high elves) would now be available to both factions. If factions don't merge (likely to be the case) then high elves would be extremely unlikely cause blood elves (aka the high elves of WoW) are already playable and are available to the Horde.

Either way, high elves are extremely unlikely... given the main high elven group are already playable. I can't imagine the allied race system will continue on in future expansions, and if any are left to be released in BfA it's likely to be mechagnomes/vulpera in 8.3. No way in hell alliance high elves would ever be a full fledged race, at best (although again extremely unlikely) the AR system would have been the time if ever to make them playable.. but instead Blizz went down the very intentional route of void elves... that plus Ion's firm stance on the matter is undeniable evidence that alliance high elves are just not unique enough to be considered their own race. Even LF draenei are more unique and distinct to regular draenei than high elves are to blood elves.

[Aldo Hawk]

Kul'tirans, different people, different region.
Mag'har, different people, different region.
LFD, different people, different region.
HM tauren, different people, different region.
High elves, same people as blood elves, same region as blood elves.
This is why it is not false to state blood elves are the high elves you want.

All those examples prove that playable races with minor differences and being the same race is not a problem. That is fact, I'm sorry.

However, you are lying when you say that Blood elves is the High elves 'I' want.

Just, for starters (and I have repeated this a lot), I play a Blood elf. I don't pursue to play a High elf myself. And I very well know that what I play is not the High elves that are being mentioned.

It's very hypocritical to call out people that they are discussing what words mean and altering them when you are the one doing so in the first place.

This is purely an ad hominem with an emotional base which has no contribution whatsoever. You should mind yourself given this is everything you accuse me of doing.

This is surely an interesting take on what I said. Given that you pretend to wipe out meaning from it by saying that it is somewhat of an ad-hominem and that it comes from an 'emotional base', thing that I found you do a lot when someone calls you on things you fault at in a constant basis.

However, I'm thinking this is a pure projection from your part, and I am gonna focus only on this last post you made.

Prove me wrong.
Prove that the high elf people come from a different region. Prove they are not from quel'thalas. Prove their origins are different.
Prove they are not the same people, whose name the blood elves left behind.
I place these requests, and no one meets them.

Prove that High elves are Blood elves, just so we are clear you come from a mindful and comprehensive place.

Because I already proved that, it is in the part of the quote you just made that you very conveniently cut out. Let me help with that:

Silver Covenant, Allerian Stronghold or Quel'danil are not composed of Blood elves.

High elf groups, composed by High elves. These are not Blood elves. Given that they, simply, don't call themselves like that, and more extensively, didn't lived in Quel'thalas after it's fall, have other allegiances, don't live or receive orders from Quel'thalas, and don't want to do with the Horde.

Even the Quel'lithien elves, who were the least Alliance of them all, got attacked by the Horde.

Also... Remember I was gonna focus on this post you made to point out on how you were being projecting? Asking for such fruitless things so repeatedly is something that comes from someone who don't actually want to debate and only want to shut down the other part without actually taking any substantiate argument on why the other part don't have good takes on the matter.

This is not a proper refutation of my point. Take the opportunity to go back, and not dodge because you cannot handle the truth.

Except High elves are not Blood elves and it is a proper refutation of your point because you are just arguing semantics that are pretty clear?

Oh, and you are being 'emotional' again. I didn't dodge anything. And I handled your 'truth' and demonstrated how it is false.

If you only want me to repeat: Yes, yes, yes... You are not in here for a debate. If not for, as I said, try to shut down the other without any substantiated argument to be made. Arguing semantics when the 'what is what' has been shut down again and again is fruitless and going in circles around it in an attempt of trying for the other to magically agree with you on something that is not true is pretty emotional if you ask me.

I am not repeating myself. This has been treated tons and tons and tons of time and you perfectly know my stance on it. Repeating it as if I needed to learn it is insulting. But yeah, keep repeating how 'bait-y' and rude is everyone else, bud.

You forgot this one.

"I do not like what i am reading, or I have difficulty following, therefore you cannot articulate yourself."
Slow down when reading and you would understand it.

Except I explained why I said what I said. And you yet again very conveniently cut it out from the quote.

Also... This is another example of you being emotional.

COrrect, I stated they WERE high elves, because they WERE blood elves, who WERE high elves. It is not difficult to follow. You have what you wanted in origins. You just ignore it because it is not the aesthetics you desired.

You perfectly understand the issue with the Void elf theme but instead try for others to 'suck it up'.

Void elves are not High elves. Is not that people don't like the aesthetics and that's it. That is a very poor take on the matter.

What happens is that Void elves are not even like the Mag'har. That, well, they are from Draenor and not Outland but they are still Mag'har and the thing can work for those who don't like the Draenor theme at some extent.

So... trying to push it in an attempt for people to be content with it because you want to be actively mistaking is also a pretty emotional thing if you ask me.

There is no from. THey ARE that race. This is literally a matter of semantics.

Except you are the one bringing up that things are about semantics and others are arguing semantics when you are the one bringing and talking about semantics yourself. That is a very emotional way of debating. You are just inflating the whole thing with nuances and unimportant pieces just for you to try to win small 'fights'. Even if those small 'fights' have no meaning whatsoever.

To ignore the facts in front of you is in itself, stubborness and nothing more. You ignore the context and facts of the discussion to yell things are not the way you want them to be. It is like someone who receive a grilled cheese sandwich, but does not want it because it was cut into triangles and not squares.

Why do you change the goalpost in this one? You see, this is another example of you trying to win another small 'fight'.

I said one thing. That believing a race has to be 100% composed with the 100% of it's members inside of one single faction without any of them being outside the box is a delusional take on what is valid and what is not valid.

However you changed that on how I ignore facts that are in front of myself and how stubborn I am. That is also a pretty emotional take on what has been answered to you since you also accuse me of ignoring context and facts to 'yell things are not the way I want them to be'. When that is just you reading fast what I write to say something because you have to say something, not because you have something to say.

This is false given there is no lore to suggest it outside the SC high elves who are not representative of the race as a whole.
Let us stick to the facts of the discussion.

The Silver Covenant despise the Horde. The Quel'danil elves are attacked by the horde. The elves from Allerian are or were in an Alliance base instead of going with their brethren that were just some miles away of that post.

Even the Quel'lithien elves, which were the least Alliance of them all, got attacked by the Horde. Mind you.

But yes, it is me who is ignoring context and facts to yell that things are not the way I want them to be. And I am the one being all emotional about it.

It is dishonest to make a claim, then when it is pointed out this is not the case, to insist otherwise without providing any citation.
If you wanted to go the round about way, since blood elves are high elves,

Except you have not been clear on what you (very pretentiously) demanded an explanation for.

And, for the other thing. Yes, Blood elves are High elves. I don't know who said otherwise nor I care a bit. I never said otherwise.

High elves are not Blood elves. That is something that I feel you need to understand. Since I have seen you and some other poster very recently saying that.

And yes. Precisely that is what I said. Not every Blood elf hate the horde... Oh wait, you missed those words and swapped them without noticing, you meant High elves are Blood elves and they don't all hate the horde and even work with them.

Which is false, given that, as I said, not every group or race or society or whatever you want to bring up and point in this world of warcraft universe have a hive mind that stick them all together. There are outsiders in every group. And that is why I said that to demand for HE requesters to ask for a race that is 100% of a faction with no outsiders whatsoever when something like that is so rare that even I doubt of something like that existing... Is pretty delusional.

Except for the fact that the lore is clear and concrete on this matter without any room for differentiation. Hence, why you received void elves.

Have you forgotten how much time we were without golden eyes for Blood elves. And how little time in comparison we actually had them?

Retroactive changes happen. They can perfectly modify the High elves to show some kind of thing that Blood elves got changed in their appearance with all the mana stealing and the fel magic. To say that is has to be kept the way it is because otherwise it would not be lore friendly or that it is impossible or that it has no room for it to be made when there is, is, at the very least, very unimaginative and gate keeping.

In fact, this is another example of someone being against it because they have to be against because it doesn't match with their view, even if it doesn't make sense. That is pretty emotional if you ask me.

Wrong. I am stating going against the lore means lore does not matter. Which is what you desire. You want to change the lore to justify high elves. Sorry, but high elves take the same culture as blood elves. So anything they have, blood elves would and should have as well.

Except you fail to show how what I said is going against the lore. But you say it anyway. So I'm not taking it seriously.

And no, I don't desire to go against the lore. That is something you would desire for me to do since that would give you a point on why what I say goes against the very concept of the request. Which is not the case.

And, also, no. Everything High elves have is not something Blood elves would and should have as well. That actually goes against the lore itself. They are different groups, they live and interact with people in different places and societies. They have their own story. For you to say that if the High elves are a certain way because they did something so the Blood elves just for inertia should also be that way... Does not only go against lore, but logic itself.

This is just an argument about dishonesty, one you cannot, and will never be able to priove since it is an accusation based on emotion.
Prove me wrong and I'll change my mind, but you have yet to do anything than make accusations which hold no weight. If you can do nothing but make accusations and you are incapable of refuting my arguments with lore, then you have no argument, and ergo, high elves cannot be justified as playable.

You keep being against the High elf playable implementation because you don't want it to happen. Even if it goes against the lore because they are part of the Alliance.

Which... exactly proves my point that you don't actually care about the lore as long as you go against the implementation of playable High elves. I don't know if you care about it in other areas. But with High elves... Oh b0i you surely don't care about bending and cherry picking.

But it does

Except it doesn't since High elves would still be High elves?

And you, yet again, ignored what I said:

Small changes to change silhouette and certain aspects that would let players distinguish things from distance have been suggested and discussed. Not even the 'crystal elves' have been openly talked about because overall that is not desired, it would simply be a whole different thing.

Which is strange since you just quoted it some paragraphs down this.

But anyway. You just want to argue in circles around this. Since you know the majority don't want a big change on it, and if they suggest a big change on it or add possible lore, you just say that it is not possible because it goes against lore and blah blah blah.

And if we suggest small changes you will just repeat again and again how little it is or even how much less sense it does. Or even that it should go to Blood elves because reasons.

This argument and trying to find some acceptable change has only been pushed by a made up necessity, created specifically to go against the request.

But yeah, I am gonna suggest some things, even tho that would be repeating myself since I very much said it recently on this thread:

One way, would be for them to be redesigned taking into account what physical changes they didn't went through with the fel radiation and mana vampirism.

One of these could be to give them extremely pale skin tones. In a mix on them not having been exposed to fel and them not receiving much mana as if they were stealing it from bunch of living creatures and only the arcane artifacts they could have put their hands on.

Tattoos that have some uses as channeling ley lines and storing mana so they could cut off from the Sunwell and have a different way of coping with the mana addiction (this would be a futuristic approach, since currently this is not the case).

A different posture, simply because it is a different posture and it does not go against anything. In fact. Culture can influence the way someone walks. Have you noticed it in the movie Black Panther? That, for some reason, is associated with Black Culture, which I was unaware of but seems to be the case.

Other way would be for them to have a different build because of the way they dealt with magic addiction and how they live now. Majorly as military individuals. This is a suggestion made by Ielenia, that they could have an slightly stronger build in game to show how they dealt with the addiction without using much mana, through exercise.

Or showing them without any given glow in the eyes at all. This could be explained for some as the Quel'danil elves, abandoning magic consumption at all.

I don't know, there are tons of slight changes that can be made for them and keeping it lore friendly. But ultimately, this is a made up necessity that is actually not needed.

Oh, and I'm gonna mention how every Allied race that previously existed got added. Always with changes. Even slightly. So in the end, it would be Blizzard's affairs if they end up adding them.

based on their lore and origins.

And as you can see, care on the lore is being pursued. Primarily for the requesting of part of the lore to be made playable.

So. Void elves.
No need to make high elves playable then.

Yes you have never mistaken a Void elf with a Blood elf. I hope you don't shame yourself every time you do, since this has been common.

In fact, the difference between Shal'dorei and Kaldorei is greater than Ren'dorei and Sin'dorei. And they changed their Silhouettes!

So no, Void elves are not distinguished from Blood elves from a distance. You have and will mistake Blood elves with Void elves and vice versa.

This is another example of you being emotional about this. Since you try to pass some kind of a personal perception argument to say that they are actually differentiated from a distance, even if this is false, just because: 'Oh wait but I do recognize them from a distance'. When apart from colors and the occasional racial proc (which can be mistaken with a shadow priest), the rest is the same in the most shallow and superficial aspect of it, the Silhouette and animations.

And because void elves give a different feel as well. You are arguing for redundancy in the name of pale skin.

'Crystal elves' are pretty pale.

A Void elf even -sounds- differently when you play with it.

If you are all shallow about it, don't try to impose it on others please.

Except aesthetics is a part of gameplay, and you are demanding a race playable on the horde already. Their story is not comparable to the races you listed dude. Sorry.

The race may be playable on the horde already. However the group that is sided with the Alliance and have less and less things shared with their brethren as time passes, aren't.

By that logic, any of the 'races' I presented would have made any sense at all. Since the race is already playable. Isn't it?

However. It's pretty easy to tell what I mean when I say that Mag'har weren't playable. We had Orcs already, why Mag'har then? It is another part of the lore that was not available for us to play. As High elves currently are.

More accusations without substance.

Except there is substance to what I said since you and others keep repeating how disingenuous and dishonest I am while being dishonest and willfully mistaking themselves.

I feel that you think your words just get forgotten and what you write on the internet just go away with time and people just forget what have read of what others write.

But yeah, that is not the case. This debate has been out for a short time. I would take that stance seriously if this has been out for years, which is not the case and I can remember well most of the commentary that has been made about it.

Please, read carefully and be mindful, thanks.

-Respectfully, Aldo Hawk.

[bdlovelace]

Either way, high elves are extremely unlikely... given the main high elven group are already playable..

i dont think they will happen either. mostly because they are already a core horde race and they have zero relevancy in the alliance. its absolutely bizarre. alliance high elves have had zero presence beyond a decorative portal keeper NPC in boralus this whole expansion. playing through the alliance leveling questing experience, not a single alliance high elf. war campaign, not a single alliance high elf until vereesa makes a cameo as allerias arm candy. but the pro position insists they are an integral part of the alliance story beyond decorative NPCs but i just dont see it

[Strippling]

i dont think they will happen either. mostly because they are already a core horde race and they have zero relevancy in the alliance. its absolutely bizarre. alliance high elves have had zero presence beyond a decorative portal keeper NPC in boralus this whole expansion. playing through the alliance leveling questing experience, not a single alliance high elf. war campaign, not a single alliance high elf until vereesa makes a cameo as allerias arm candy. but the pro position insists they are an integral part of the alliance story beyond decorative NPCs but i just dont see it

Yea, pretty much this. Two high elves show up... "SEE!!! High elves are INTEGRAL to the Alliance!!!!1!!!one!!"

[Aldo Hawk]

i dont think they will happen either. mostly because they are already a core horde race and they have zero relevancy in the alliance. its absolutely bizarre. alliance high elves have had zero presence beyond a decorative portal keeper NPC in boralus this whole expansion. playing through the alliance leveling questing experience, not a single alliance high elf. war campaign, not a single alliance high elf until vereesa makes a cameo as allerias arm candy. but the pro position insists they are an integral part of the alliance story beyond decorative NPCs but i just dont see it

Where are the Taunka or the Revantusk?

They are part of the Horde.

Oh yeah, they are unplayable.

However, now it seems High elves have to be 'integral' (which can be bent onto whatever the poster wants it to mean).

Isn't this another discussion about semantics? Again?

High elves are part of the Alliance. Period.

[elbleuet]

Laneesh steelweaver, there is also another named NPC ( i cannot recall his name)
There are frostmage blood elves, sunreaver captain, sunreaver assassin blood elves who have blue eyes.

These are well known bugs. The Alliance even had for a time green eyed high elves in Northrend.

[FlubberPuddy]

These are well known bugs. The Alliance even had for a time green eyed high elves in Northrend.

They also internally separated the files of High Elves and Blood Elves. That bug occurred because High Elves used to just be under a "blood_elf_A1" file name or something like that. So whenever Blizzard would populate the world with whatever program grabbed the files with Blood Elves you'd get those bugs of a Blood Elf spawning with a High Elf model, and a High Elf spawning with a Blood Elf model.

This was seen even as recent as in BFA where Frostfencer Seraphi in BFA Beta had Green Eyes but they were corrected to Blue by release of BFA.

When it was found Blood Elves were receiving Golden Eyes, Blizzard finally separated the "blood_elf" files which pertained to High Elves and actually made them their own "high_elf" files. This was to avoid those spawning model bugs.

Now, ever since the Blood Elf Golden Eyes, there in theory will never be another bug when it comes to spawning Blood Elves and High Elves. And indeed so far in BFA after BE Golden Eyes and that file change, we haven't seen anymore instances of NPCs like Lanesh Steelweaver nor those "Sunreavers with Blue Eyes" etc.

- - - Updated - - -

We can also use "anti-helfer logic" and say that since we don't see anymore of the Sunreavers with Blue Eyes in BFA and Lanesh Steelweaver in BFA then

-clears throat- "I GUESS LANESH AND THOSE BLUE EYED SUNREAVERS ALL DIED SINCE THEY'RE NOT IN BFA!"

[Broflake]

These are well known bugs. The Alliance even had for a time green eyed high elves in Northrend.

It isn't a bug per the devs when asked about Lanesh Steelweaver.
This discussion would go further if you and Aldo did not intentionally ignore facts.

All those examples prove that playable races with minor differences and being the same race is not a problem. That is fact, I'm sorry.

For someone who says they love lore and all this nonsense, you immediately ignored the counterpoint IO placed before you regarding justification and lore. Address it, or cede the point Aldo.

However, you are lying when you say that Blood elves is the High elves 'I' want.

COnsidering you ignored the point placed before you? I am suspecting this is correct. You just dont want to be on the Horde.
The rest is just you tossing out accusations without substance again, so it can be ignored. In fact, I'll just cut out anything that is not an actual argument because it just becomes a wall of text of meaningless accusation and complaints. It does not contribute anything to the discussion now does it?

Because I already proved that, it is in the part of the quote you just made that you very conveniently cut out. Let me help with that:

No, you really didn't, and fact of the matter is you stepped on a land mine like everyone else did without knowing it.
So, quel'lithien high elves were exiled from SIlvermoon because they would not engage in mana tapping living creatures. They were blood elves,
Why are they blood elves?
They were present for the renaming and it was stated by them flatly that they were there in the defense of quel'thalas and the reclamation of it only to then be exiled. So they were indeed blood elves, who then chose to cling to the name high elves after their exile. That is becaiue the renaming happened before they learned to mana tap.
This brings up another point where a poster said "well all high elves are exiled.". Okay, then that means at some point, they were all blood elves, because they were there to defend the kingdom and were exiled after the mana tap incident which happened after the renaming. So high elves is literally just semantics and a name. Nothing more.
Anyway, you have no intent to prove your argument. You are simply saying "high elves are high elves because they are high elves." Yeah, that is circular.

didn't lived in Quel'thalas after it's fall, have other allegiances, don't live or receive orders from Quel'thalas, and don't want to do with the Horde.

Both Vereesa and Alleria consider quel'thalas their home.
Anyway, we're not revisiting your insistence on high elves being alliance until you can show lore suggesting the majority are alliance and not neutral. You remember how the silver covenant was there to assist against the horde in 8.0, 8.1, 8.2? Oh wait.
.

You perfectly understand the issue with the Void elf theme but instead try for others to 'suck it up'.

That is because here is how your request looks
"we can change the high elf appearance". Just like void elves
"well the story!" is secondary to gameplay. Lore can be expanded on, and you would have beter traction just asking blizzard to expand the lore than demanding they make a whole new race, to give the alliance two bites of the Horde's apple. Of course you will get opposition, and of course your argument seems weak and aesthetically based.

Void elves are not High elves. Is not that people don't like the aesthetics and that's it. That is a very poor take on the matter.

Which is why you argue for different postures/tattoos which are superficial changes compared to void elves. If you cared about the lore, the argument would be about lore, not superificial changes.

What happens is that Void elves are not even like the Mag'har. That, well, they are from Draenor and not Outland but they are still Mag'har and the thing can work for those who don't like the Draenor theme at some extent.

You're right...void elves come from the very group you wanted. Mag'har don't come from the group people wanted them from, but they look the same so its okay.

Why do you change the goalpost in this one? You see, this is another example of you trying to win another small 'fight'.

You keep using terms after I use them, without understanding what they mean.

The Silver Covenant despise the Horde.

They despise them so much they worked with them repeatedly including in Cata where they worked with their own people to fight off the Amani trolls, and worked with them in Legion. They despise the horde so much they had no presence in any faction conflict unless it involved working with the horde side by side.

The Quel'danil elves are attacked by the horde. The elves from Allerian are or were in an Alliance base instead of going with their brethren that were just some miles away of that post.

The allerian stronghold elves were those who left during WC2 to fight in outland. They had no idea what happened until later on, and afterwards, hated the horde so much that they want to reunite the blood elves and high elves .
Much hate.

Except you have not been clear on what you (very pretentiously) demanded an explanation for.

This is just a case of you being obtuse. I have been very clear.

And, for the other thing. Yes, Blood elves are High elves.

Cool, so go play Horde since that is the side they are playable on.

High elves are not Blood elves. That is something that I feel you need to understand. Since I have seen you and some other poster very recently saying that.

That contradicts with the above statement I quoted. Sorry, this is not a case of all apples are fruit which is a classification argument.

And yes. Precisely that is what I said. Not every Blood elf hate the horde... Oh wait, you missed those words and swapped them without noticing, you meant High elves are Blood elves and they don't all hate the horde and even work with them.

Considering they are both the same people and the encyclopedia states they are mistaken for the other, and that at the fundamental level they are the same people, you would only be politically incorrect to make such a statement. shrug.

Which is false, given that, as I said, not every group or race or society or whatever you want to bring up and point in this world of warcraft universe have a hive mind that stick them all together. There are outsiders in every group. And that is why I said that to demand for HE requesters to ask for a race that is 100% of a faction with no outsiders whatsoever when something like that is so rare that even I doubt of something like that existing... Is pretty delusional.

Except I didn't say they were a hive mind, and acknowledge fringed groups so....we can ignore this argument.

Have you forgotten how much time we were without golden eyes for Blood elves. And how little time in comparison we actually had them?

How long the palyer has them is irrelevant to how long they have been around per lore. Which is since the ignition of the sunwell.

Retroactive changes happen. They can perfectly modify the High elves to show some kind of thing that Blood elves got changed in their appearance with all the mana stealing and the fel magic. To say that is has to be kept the way it is because otherwise it would not be lore friendly or that it is impossible or that it has no room for it to be made when there is, is, at the very least, very unimaginative and gate keeping.

Sorry you don't like what you hear, but them be the facts. The arguments of fel are dead and buried since TBC. Stop bringing it up.
This is a case of lore not mattering if it gives you the pale elf you want, and mattering only when it suits you. If you cared for lore, you wouldn't make such silly arguments about dead storylines.

And no, I don't desire to go against the lore.

Your suggestions on making them different goes against the lore so...that speaks for itself Aldo.
You don't care about the lore, you care about the fact you can't play a blood elf on the alliance. The lore is just a vehicle to get you what you want, and can be broken and twisted to your goals.

And, also, no. Everything High elves have is not something Blood elves would and should have as well. That actually goes against the lore itself. They are different groups, they live and interact with people in different places and societies. They have their own story. For you to say that if the High elves are a certain way because they did something so the Blood elves just for inertia should also be that way... Does not only go against lore, but logic itself.

Cool, prove it. We have nothing suggesting they would be different. Otherwise, this is you just making an empty claim. Sorry, talking to a human doesn't make you different compared to talking to an orc.

You keep being against the High elf playable implementation because you don't want it to happen. Even if it goes against the lore because they are part of the Alliance.

I am against it because the race is already playable, through the Horde. You said it yourself, blood elves are high elves. So, they are already playable. If I want a human, I go alliance..

Except it doesn't since High elves would still be High elves?

Not if you change their appearances to be differently from blood elves.

One way, would be for them to be redesigned taking into account what physical changes they didn't went through with the fel radiation and mana vampirism.

Cool, except for the fact that the fel radiation matter has been dead since the end of TBC with the ignition of the sunwell, its cleansing effects, the repeated statements by devs that the only change is green eyes which would go away suggesting any changes were temporary and now gone.
Mana vampirism has been demosntrated throughyout the game to not matter. Arcane is arcane is arcane, be it from a living creature or a crystal. So, suggesting they change it, means they'd have to retcon and break the lore on themes that have been consistent since the creation of the game.

One of these could be to give them extremely pale skin tones. In a mix on them not having been exposed to fel and them not receiving much mana as if they were stealing it from bunch of living creatures and only the arcane artifacts they could have put their hands on.

Except we know the consequences for not getting enough mana, and we know the effects of fel, and we know the sunwell fixed all these issues, and we know it is about aesthetics because it is about pale skin. Play a blood elf.

Tattoos that have some uses as channeling ley lines and storing mana so they could cut off from the Sunwell and have a different way of coping with the mana addiction (this would be a futuristic approach, since currently this is not the case).

Except they can't be cut off because it binds to all thalassian elves. Furthermore, why would they have this storage method when they never had it in the past when both the blood elf and high elf groups were starving? This is creating non-sensical story for the sake of justifying a new race. Sorry, tattoos does not a different race make. If anything, that is saying "let me bake the cake, eat it, and eat your cake too.".
Yeah, no, if such minor changes occur it stays on that faction.
So...lets work for high elves and blood elves to merge so we have more options for all the races without needing to take up slots unnecessarily 8D

A different posture, simply because it is a different posture and it does not go against anything. In fact. Culture can influence the way someone walks. Have you noticed it in the movie Black Panther? That, for some reason, is associated with Black Culture, which I was unaware of but seems to be the case.

Jesus christ I'd give anything if Black panther did not exist,
Different posture applies to ANY race. It's not enough, sorry.

Other way would be for them to have a different build because of the way they dealt with magic addiction and how they live now. Majorly as military individuals. This is a suggestion made by Ielenia, that they could have an slightly stronger build in game to show how they dealt with the addiction without using much mana, through exercise.

Which makes no sense given blood elves did the same thing through the far striders and warriors who were barely affected by the loss of the sunwell. So...this suggestion is a dead one because blood elves have done it as well. Try again.

Or showing them without any given glow in the eyes at all. This could be explained for some as the Quel'danil elves, abandoning magic consumption at all.

Which also doesn't work because the sunwell affects ALL elves regardless if they use magic or not. Did you seriously forget that Lor'themar is a ranger who does not use magic or something?

I don't know, there are tons of slight changes that can be made for them and keeping it lore friendly. But ultimately, this is a made up necessity that is actually not needed.

Yeah...becuase you can just play a blood elf to get what you want.

Oh, and I'm gonna mention how every Allied race that previously existed got added. Always with changes. Even slightly. So in the end, it would be Blizzard's affairs if they end up adding them.

And how many of those slight changes shifted factions?

And as you can see, care on the lore is being pursued. Primarily for the requesting of part of the lore to be made playable.

No it isn't, your suggestions have no lore basis period.

Yes you have never mistaken a Void elf with a Blood elf. I hope you don't shame yourself every time you do, since this has been common.

The glowing purple aura they get proccing an ability is a hint.
If they don'
t look any different with their armor on then you don't need high elves because you can't see the difference with their armor on anyway.
Which also kills every other suggested change because tattoos cant be seen with armor on.

In fact, the difference between Shal'dorei and Kaldorei is greater than Ren'dorei and Sin'dorei. And they changed their Silhouettes!

And their entire appearance by giving them tentacles, and warping their structure and ears!
Probably won't ever happen again.

So no, Void elves are not distinguished from Blood elves from a distance. You have and will mistake Blood elves with Void elves and vice versa.

Cool, then you don't need high elves either since they look the same with armor on and look the same from a distance. Play a blood elf and use an add on to cross faction RP.

'Crystal elves' are pretty pale.

So it is about aesthetics and not lore. This is the second time you bring up pale skin. Play a blood elf. Or a DK blood elf.

A Void elf even -sounds- differently when you play with it.

Picture that..a race changed by the void would sound different.
Tattoos don't have that effect.

If you are all shallow about it, don't try to impose it on others please.

Shall I point out how often you bring up pale skin and tattoos?

The race may be playable on the horde already.

And that is why you won't get them. They are playable through the Horde, so play a blood elf there. Otherwise, the entire game should just make every race neutral by your logic because of fringe groups.

By that logic, any of the 'races' I presented would have made any sense at all. Since the race is already playable. Isn't it?

This is a case of you shifting the context of the discusssion.
You bring up HM tauren, I explained how it can be argued they can be a different race because of a different region/culture.
I point out how high elves are from the same region/culture as blood elves.
Now, you say "well lets move this to aesthetics now because I can be right through that", and at that point I just go "and minor changes means the faction doesn't change.".
This is why context of the argument matters, and why each time you change it, I change my argument to suit it.

Fact of the matter is high elves are different frmo every other allied race.
Their origins aren't different.
Their aesthetics isn't different.
Their lore and design both state it plainly.

[bdlovelace]

When it was found Blood Elves were receiving Golden Eyes, Blizzard finally separated the "blood_elf" files which pertained to High Elves and actually made them their own "high_elf" files. This was to avoid those spawning model bugs.

and yet we have the senior narrative designer, literally less then a month ago, stating these blue eyed blood elf NPCs arent a bug, havent been changed despite numerous bug tickets from the pro side, and there is a story for them. obviously not every blood elf lived in quel'thalas blue eyes could simply come from blood elves who primarily spent their time in dalaran. or the potential for blue eyes is there with arcane mages with a strong devotion to the arcane just like priests and paladins with golden eyes. or they could simply be 'high' elf defectors disgusted by the purge of dalaran

blue eyes for blood elves most likely will be implemented when every race gets access to the eye color customization that ion teased back in march. making high elves a neutral race i dont see happening, but if grouping restrictions for things like LFR, LFD, and random bgs gets loosened because the faction war is over at least you will be able to fanfiction youre an alliance 'high' elf for grouped content