Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Alixie]

If your presence creates a situation where an entire race is put at risk because of your pacts with the forces of evil, you don't really get to act shocked if said race tells you to sling your hook.

Funny. Allying with demons and undead was justified, but not the void for some reason.

The original statement is being ignored. High Elves are only tolerated only at the Sunwell. If they were welcome whenever they want, they'd be show walking around Silvermoon just like the Nightborne Tourists.

And its not just Lorthemar who snubbed the idea of rejoining the Alliance. Alleria and Veressa (the one who leads most of the High Elves) were openly shit talking the Horde back in Legion. Knowing that their cousins helped Sylvanas wipe out an elven city, kill off most of their population, and raised its defenders as zombies, nothing the Horde done in BFA has earned any favors with them. Its very unlikely they'd move their people to Silvermoon while it's controlled by the Horde. Now if it was the other way around, Silvermoon rejoining the Alliance, they'd be cool with that. However, the Blood Elf leadership greatly dislikes the idea of going back to the Alliance. Neither group is willing to budge. I dont see it happening.

[Magnagarde]

The Alliance's Thalassian siege engines and specifically high elves were once again present in the 8.2.5 questline. They remain and keep being part of the Alliance's core identity wherever the Alliance goes, yet they are still not playable on the Alliance side.

[Broflake]

Funny. Allying with demons and undead was justified, but not the void for some reason.

Probably because when a void elf was around the sunwell, it immediately began to be corrupted by a void prince?

The original statement is being ignored. High Elves are only tolerated only at the Sunwell. If they were welcome whenever they want, they'd be show walking around Silvermoon just like the Nightborne Tourists.

Lor'themar states Alleria can no longer call Silvermoon her home. Clearly, she was allowed to do so even though she was alliance aligned. Therefore, they are certainly allowed to see the Sunwell and go through Silvermoon. There is nothing to suggest they are not allowed.

And its not just Lorthemar who snubbed the idea of rejoining the Alliance. Alleria and Veressa (the one who leads most of the High Elves) were openly shit talking the Horde back in Legion. Knowing that their cousins helped Sylvanas wipe out an elven city, kill off most of their population, and raised its defenders as zombies,

There is nothing to suggest Alleria and Vereesa even consider that a factor. Their grudge stems from WC2 where their family member and friends were killed. I am very sure they understand the fact Sylvanas, and many of the blood elf DKs, died in the defense of Silvermoon and were then forced to attack the kingdom against their will. I am unsure why you would bring this up, especially since, the Horde then provided assistance in not only reclaiming Silvermoon, but maintaining its defense against the scourge forces within the area.

nothing the Horde done in BFA has earned any favors with them. Its very unlikely they'd move their people to Silvermoon while it's controlled by the Horde. Now if it was the other way around, Silvermoon rejoining the Alliance, they'd be cool with that. However, the Blood Elf leadership greatly dislikes the idea of going back to the Alliance. Neither group is willing to budge. I dont see it happening.

The void elves place themselves in the line of fire. This is why Lorthemar calls them traitors.
High elves? Absent.
They don't participate in anything, and the suggestion of Vereesa being very alliance aligned despite the fact she hasn't been present until the end of the war is telling.

The Alliance's Thalassian siege engines and specifically high elves were once again present in the 8.2.5 questline.

The questline where the Horde is having a civil war and both alliance and Horde are working together again?
There is also only 1 high elf present...and Vereesa has a non-speaking role.
I cannot agree with your assertion.

[bdlovelace]

The point of was: there was no distinction given, at all, to the Kul'Tirans, until it was time to make them into a playable race. We had Kul'Tirans in Legion, in a small area of Azsuna, and still they looked like a normal human.

ion himself said the high elves are blood elves and cannot be made distinct from uh... themselves? and void elves allowed them to give something that felt like a blood elf without copy pasting the blood elf fantasy for the alliance. how many times do you have to be reminded kul tirans are on the same faction you can give them a new model and its fine because it isnt going to cross the faction boundary. the human potential fantasy is kept exclusive to the alliance

There are no body difference between the high elves and blood elves solely because the high elves are not playable. If Blizzard decides to make them into a playable race, they will make them more distinct.

thats because we already know what they look like, where they live, how long they have been separated, etc. they come from the same and only high elf kingdom on azeroth, quel'thalas and share the exact same connection to the sunwell

I do, because not only there are lore justifications for that, but also more lore could be created.

then they could also make lore reasons and distinctions for playable alliance orcs, forsaken, tauren, and trolls. asking for changes to the model is proof there really arent any differences between high/blood elves besides how they identify themselves. you should be able to just say the high elf race should be neutral because they have equal representation in the alliance as the blood elves in the horde. which they absolutely do not and we now enter fanfiction territory. a high elf portal keeper doesnt need permanent player representation when that race and its fantasy belong to the horde now and is already playable

[Ielenia]

ion himself said the high elves are blood elves and cannot be made distinct from uh... themselves?

"Cannot"? When did he ever say that?

thats because we already know what they look like, where they live, how long they have been separated, etc. they come from the same and only high elf kingdom on azeroth, quel'thalas and share the exact same connection to the sunwell

Again, many years have passed since the high elf exile. Anduin was but a small child and now he is a young adult. I've already laid out a couple lore reasons to give the two groups different builds. Perhaps not to the extreme of Kul'Tiras and Stormwind humans, but possible.

then they could also make lore reasons and distinctions for playable alliance orcs, forsaken, tauren, and trolls. asking for changes to the model is proof there really arent any differences between high/blood elves besides how they identify themselves.

We're not asking for model changes because we want them to be changed, but simply to try to reach a compromise with those that insist that blood elf model should be exclusive to the Horde. I couldn't care less if they're blue-eyes carbon-copy of the blood elves or have their own unique model.

[bdlovelace]

"Cannot"? When did he ever say that?

when he said "high elves are blood elves, if you want to be a light skinned and majestic elf, that is a blood elf and the horde is there for you. giving that race to the alliance blurs the lines between the two factions." what did you think he meant

We're not asking for model changes because we want them to be changed, but simply to try to reach a compromise with those that insist that blood elf model should be exclusive to the Horde

the model was the compromise. anything more is giving you exactly what you want, the blood elf fantasy but in blue

[FlubberPuddy]

blood elf fantasy but in blue

Please tell me how High elves in the Alliance carry "blood elf fantasy", what even is "blood elf fantasy" to you?

[bdlovelace]

Please tell me how High elves in the Alliance carry "blood elf fantasy", what even is "blood elf fantasy" to you?

the blood elf fantasy is playing that ancient race that discovered the sunwell and quel'thalas, the high elves, in WoW which belongs to the horde now. we can all see the exchanges between you and kai you know very well what it is and what playable alliance high elves allows the alliance "high" elves to do

blood elves are the past, present, and future of the high elf race. the high elf portal keeper or the elves in dalaran creating a safe space for the alliance have no future or relevance beyond their decorative NPC status

[FlubberPuddy]

the blood elf fantasy is playing that ancient race that discovered the sunwell and quel'thalas, the high elves, in WoW which belongs to the horde now. we can all see the exchanges between you and kai you know very well what it is and what playable alliance high elves allows the alliance "high" elves to do

blood elves are the past, present, and future of the high elf race. the high elf portal keeper or the elves in dalaran creating a safe space for the alliance have no future or relevance beyond their decorative NPC status

So you can't even define "blood elf fantasy" other than "you know it's just this race and yeah.." thanks that's all I needed to see.

There's something called saying a lot without really saying much. Blizzard's into that too I hear.

[Broflake]

I This does not really say anything besides passive aggressiveness.

[Ielenia]

when he said "high elves are blood elves, if you want to be a light skinned and majestic elf, that is a blood elf and the horde is there for you. giving that race to the alliance blurs the lines between the two factions." what did you think he meant

So, in other words, it's just you putting words in his mouth, since he never actually said high elves cannot be made different from blood elves.

the model was the compromise.

At best: it's not.
At worst: it's really not.

A compromise is a "middle ground", of sorts. There is no 'middle ground' with void elves, since none of what the VE have is what the HE supporters have been asking for.

anything more is giving you exactly what you want, the blood elf fantasy but in blue

Nope. Wrong. Try again.

[Broflake]

So, in other words, it's just you putting words in his mouth, since he never actually said high elves cannot be made different from blood elves.

Besides Ion stating the only difference is eye color and that was it? This is a direct implication that the two are not different, and that Blizzard has no desire to make them different especially because the lore establishes their appearances are not different.
My question is why does everyone state they wish to play the high elves because of lore, but then, suggest changes which go against the lore? You are either for the lore or you're against it.

At best: it's not.
At worst: it's really not.

That is your opinion, but objectively it was indeed a compromise.

A compromise is a "middle ground", of sorts. There is no 'middle ground' with void elves, since none of what the VE have is what the HE supporters have been asking for.

A compromise means no one is happy.
HIgh elves look exactly like blood elves.
Void elves look very similar, but they are light blue to purple, and have tentacles. Their appearances are similar, but they are different. Literally, they are a comprpomise. Your refusal of saying they are not, is simply a matter of obstinate, not because you have any true basis to declare it not a compromise.

Nope. Wrong. Try again.

I mean, you keep saying this, but you're not saying what you want exactly, and you're not making any offerings which do not contradict your initial demand.

Correct me if I am wrong, but theprimary argument for high elves is the following.

Based on lore, high elves who are working with the alliance are part of the alliance, and you wish to play them.
The problem is there are several barriers to this desire.

1. Aesthetics. Lore wise, there is no difference in appearance between high elves and blood elves. They come from the same generation, the same region, the same origins. Their people including their most prominent figures look like blood elves, because blood elves aer high elves with a different title. Changing them destroys all the lore which establishes their existence.

2. Void elves. Yeah...you don't like them, but they still exist. They provide a thalassian elf appearance that has been significantly modified. This means if there were to be high elves, there would need to at least be 1 of each races variant, and even then, institution of them leads to an issue of game design balance. Why should the alliance have TWO thalassian elves to the Horde's 1? The Horde's version being the original? You would then need to give a second night elf model to balance the scales out, and this would not make anyone happy because, according to you and others, you hated how void elves were implemented. So...night elves would need to be similarly implemented, and if you are not to be completely hypocritical, you'd need to oppose such a thing as well.

3. Lore. According to lore only SOME high elves work with the alliance, not all of them. Requesting high elves means requiring ALL high elves to suddenly become alliance oriented when the current lore says something completely diffferent.

[elbleuet]

3. Lore. According to lore only SOME high elves work with the alliance, not all of them. Requesting high elves means requiring ALL high elves to suddenly become alliance oriented when the current lore says something completely diffferent.

All blood elves aren't Horde.
All taurens aren't Horde.
All humans aren't Alliance.
All void elves aren't Alliance.
All orcs aren't Horde.

Your argument is invalid.

Most of high elves introduced in game are Alliance or are neutral, favoring the Alliance. That's enough.

[Broflake]

All blood elves aren't Horde.
All taurens aren't Horde.
All humans aren't Alliance.
All void elves aren't Alliance.
All orcs aren't Horde.

Your argument is invalid.

Yeah, no, your dismissive attempt does not work.
The mass majority of the blood elves? Horde.
Mass majority of humans? Alliance
All void elves are most assuredly alliance considering, you know, that is why they exist in the first place.
The mass majority of the orcs? Horde.

Your attempt to say "well not everyone is Horde/alliance, therefore, that means your argument doesn't work" isn't an effective one given exceptions to the rule does not disprove it, they only enforce it in this case.
For example, there are fogsail humans working with the Horde, does this mean there are valid arguments for making humans playable on the Horde? No. It does not.

Try again.

Most of high elves introduced in game are Alliance or are neutral, favoring the Alliance. That's enough.

Cool, citation needed, because nothing has changed the lore stating the high elf people are not unified in their allegiances and the only group of high elves that are clearly alliance aligned is the silver covenant.

[elbleuet]

Yeah, no, your dismissive attempt does not work.
The mass majority of the blood elves? Horde.
Mass majority of humans? Alliance
All void elves are most assuredly alliance considering, you know, that is why they exist in the first place.
The mass majority of the orcs? Horde.

Your attempt to say "well not everyone is Horde/alliance, therefore, that means your argument doesn't work" isn't an effective one given exceptions to the rule does not disprove it, they only enforce it in this case.
For example, there are fogsail humans working with the Horde, does this mean there are valid arguments for making humans playable on the Horde? No. It does not.

And most High elves are Alliance or are favoring the Alliance. That's a fact.
High elves from Dalaran/Stormwind/Hinterlands/the 7th legion and all Allerian elves are Alliance.
We even have high elves in Stromgarde and Kul'Tiras.

Try again.

Don't be aggressive buddy. Try to find some arguments instead.

Cool, citation needed, because nothing has changed the lore stating the high elf people are not unified in their allegiances and the only group of high elves that are clearly alliance aligned is the silver covenant.

Just make your first Alliance character, reach the lvl 120 and then return here.

[Broflake]

And most High elves are Alliance or are favoring the Alliance. That's a fact.
High elves from Dalaran/Stormwind/Hinterlands/the 7th legion and all Allerian elves are Alliance.
We even have high elves in Stromgarde and Kul'Tiras.

According the the encyclopedia, this is not the case. High elves are all doing their own thing, they are not unified. For example, the dalaran high elves, which is the greatest concentration of them, are primarily neutral. There is simply no lore to suggest all or most high elves are supportive of the alliance. You have a singular group through the SC, and random individuals. This is not indicative of anything. There are high elves who work alongside the horde, and even a high elf who asks horde adventurers to kill alliance players. This clearly does not support the argument of them being alliance favoring as a majority.

Don't be aggressive buddy. Try to find some arguments instead.

Please do not attempt to bait someone. I stated for you to try again.

Just make your first Alliance character, reach the lvl 120 and then return here.

This is more bait.
FYI, I have 3 level 120's on each faction, all of which are 420+ ilvl. Your requirements for a valid argument are neither valid, necessary, or add to the conversation. I would request you contribute to the conversation properly and provide an argument to refute my counterpoint. If you cannot, it may be best if you were to withdraw from the conversation until you find an argument to support your view.

[elbleuet]

According the the encyclopedia, this is not the case. High elves are all doing their own thing, they are not unified. For example, the dalaran high elves, which is the greatest concentration of them, are primarily neutral. There is simply no lore to suggest all or most high elves are supportive of the alliance. You have a singular group through the SC, and random individuals. This is not indicative of anything. There are high elves who work alongside the horde, and even a high elf who asks horde adventurers to kill alliance players. This clearly does not support the argument of them being alliance favoring as a majority.

So your "arguments" are based on a +12y outdated wow encyclopedia and on a Vanilla high elf asking Horde adventurers to kill some Alliance players ?

FYI, I have 3 level 120's on each faction, all of which are 420+ ilvl. Your requirements for a valid argument are neither valid, necessary, or add to the conversation. I would request you contribute to the conversation properly and provide an argument to refute my counterpoint. If you cannot, it may be best if you were to withdraw from the conversation until you find an argument to support your view.

Thanks for being less aggressive. But where are your arguments ?
"There's a high elf in the Horde" is not an argument. And informations coming from an outdated source aren't either.
But what we're seeing currently in WoW are.

[Broflake]

So your "arguments" are based on a +12y outdated wow encyclopedia and on a Vanilla high elf asking Horde adventurers to kill some Alliance players ?

Yep, because the lore is still valid until it has been contradicted.
For example, it was stated high elves had no groups in the past, this is now untrue given the silver covenant. It does not, however, change the fact they are not unified and that their views and ideals are on an individual basis.

Thanks for being less aggressive. But where are your arguments ?
"There's a high elf in the Horde" is not an argument. And informations coming from an outdated source aren't either.
But what we're seeing currently in WoW are.

How is it outdated?
That's like trying to say none of the lore in LotR matters because Silmarallion exists. The lore is considered valid until otherwise shown. The encyclopedia has not been contradicted on this matter. Your perception of aggressive is solely on your part.

[bdlovelace]

And most High elves are Alliance or are favoring the Alliance. That's a fact.
High elves from Dalaran/Stormwind/Hinterlands/the 7th legion and all Allerian elves are Alliance.

most high elves are blood elves now actually, like overwhelmingly. in fact over 90% of the high elf population identifies as blood elf. the rest are tied up with dalaran. theres a couple actual alliance aligned high elves in stormwind and a couple in bfa content

as for the few allerian stronghold elves all evidence points to them returning to quel'thalas with their captain, auric, now that the portal was reopened. highvale is another group of a few elves, who traveled south of their homeland and now live in a tiny lodge and show no interest in joining a faction war. suggesting anything else is just your wishful thinking

[Ielenia]

Besides Ion stating the only difference is eye color and that was it? This is a direct implication that the two are not different, and that Blizzard has no desire to make them different especially because the lore establishes their appearances are not different.

But I have yet to hear the developers say that high elves cannot be made different from blood elves, which is the statement I challenged.

My question is why does everyone state they wish to play the high elves because of lore, but then, suggest changes which go against the lore? You are either for the lore or you're against it.

Offering ideas on how they could be made different is not "going against the lore". Expansion of the lore is not to go 'against it'. What really is "going against the lore" is the idea that blue eyes should be a customization option for blood elves.

And, again, the reason high elf proponents offer ideas on how to make HE different from BE is solely done as an attempt to reach a compromise with those that say the blood elf model should be exclusive to the Horde.

That is your opinion, but objectively it was indeed a compromise.

I've yet to see any Blizzard employee referring to the void elves as a compromise.

A compromise means no one is happy.

That's not what a compromise is.

HIgh elves look exactly like blood elves.
Void elves look very similar, but they are light blue to purple, and have tentacles. Their appearances are similar, but they are different. Literally, they are a comprpomise. Your refusal of saying they are not, is simply a matter of obstinate, not because you have any true basis to declare it not a compromise.

A compromise is a middle ground. There is zero "middle ground" with void elves. You could call them a 'compromise' if Umbric and his research team were high elves, but they weren't. They were blood elves doing their research with the intention of helping the Horde.

I mean, you keep saying this, but you're not saying what you want exactly, and you're not making any offerings which do not contradict your initial demand.

Correct me if I am wrong, but theprimary argument for high elves is the following.

Based on lore, high elves who are working with the alliance are part of the alliance, and you wish to play them.
The problem is there are several barriers to this desire.

1. Aesthetics. Lore wise, there is no difference in appearance between high elves and blood elves. They come from the same generation, the same region, the same origins. Their people including their most prominent figures look like blood elves, because blood elves aer high elves with a different title. Changing them destroys all the lore which establishes their existence.

2. Void elves. Yeah...you don't like them, but they still exist. They provide a thalassian elf appearance that has been significantly modified. This means if there were to be high elves, there would need to at least be 1 of each races variant, and even then, institution of them leads to an issue of game design balance. Why should the alliance have TWO thalassian elves to the Horde's 1? The Horde's version being the original? You would then need to give a second night elf model to balance the scales out, and this would not make anyone happy because, according to you and others, you hated how void elves were implemented. So...night elves would need to be similarly implemented, and if you are not to be completely hypocritical, you'd need to oppose such a thing as well.

3. Lore. According to lore only SOME high elves work with the alliance, not all of them. Requesting high elves means requiring ALL high elves to suddenly become alliance oriented when the current lore says something completely diffferent.

1. There is enough lore and lore gaps to justify build and posture differences. The two biggest ones is the fact high elves did not 'feed' on fel magic, and we know fel magic negatively affects one's physical body (supported by the fact BEs couldn't be warriors when they were made playable) and how high elves had to find other way to deal with the pains of magic withdrawal. Physical exercising to help combat the physical effects of the withdrawal are a possible justification for difference in builds and posture.

2. Fuck appearance. We want high elves for the lore. If all people wanted was to play a blood elf, they'd be playing blood elves.

3. False. The Defias Humans are not part of the Alliance faction. The blood elves you fight in Outland are not part of the Horde's faction.