Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Varodoc]

You forget that Alleria has been under Locus-Walker's tutelage to master the void for quite some time before that. "Becoming a void elf" is not the same thing as eating a big hamburger.

Yes, but the trigger for the transformation itself was when she was hit by L'ura's essence. Her training with Locus-Walker helped her control the Void powers she had, but it was being hit by L'ura who caused her to transform.

They did nothing a Kirin Tor mage could've done.

And yet a Kirin Tor mage didn't do that, it was a void elf who did that. That doesn't take anything away from them.

Also, they used their powers to send enemy troops into the Void, something that no mage can do.

Besides, I really don't see why it's a huge deal that void elves don't appear against N'Zoth, when orcs and blood elves didn't do jackshit against Kil'jaeden and in the invasion of Argus.

Lightforged draenei at least were introduced in the expansion prior and got their development, and their recruitment scenario gives you some insight on the process of converting draenei into lightforged.

Nothing of the sort was ever done for void elves.

You literally saw how some void elves were created in their recruitment scenario, and furthermore they were also introduced prior to the expansion, as they are marketed as a Legion allied race. Their recruitment happens at the end of Legion, not at the beginning of BfA.

[Ielenia]

Yes, but the trigger for the transformation itself was when she was hit by L'ura's essence. Her training with Locus-Walker helped her control the Void powers she had, but it was being hit by L'ura who caused her to transform.

Was it? How do you know she couldn't transform already, but chose not to? There's a myriad of possible reasons for that, alone. Her "transforming into void form" at the end of that cinematic can also be explained by saying the "fallen naaru"'s energy was too much for her and she had to take on void form to properly contain it.

You're taking incomplete information and filling the gaps with headcanon, and treating it as official lore.

And yet a Kirin Tor mage didn't do that, it was a void elf who did that. That doesn't take anything away from them.

The point is none of that is specific void elf lore development. It's just simple stuff that any other mage could do.

Also, they used their powers to send enemy troops into the Void, something that no mage can do.

For the purposes of the story being told, what would be the difference from a mage teleporting those Horde soldiers into the bottom of the sea... or into the belly of an active volcano? None. Again, none of that is void elf lore. There's no development to their lore. We don't find out anything more about their origins, how they came to be, how more void elves are created, they didn't learn new things to do with their powers, nothing.

Besides, I really don't see why it's a huge deal that void elves don't appear against N'Zoth, when orcs and blood elves didn't do jackshit against Kil'jaeden and in the invasion of Argus.

Apples and oranges. Orcs already had truck-loads of development, and they had their "come back" in the form of the orcs of AU Draenor fighting the demons. And the journey to Argus was a draenei expedition, in which they allowed champions of the other races to come, not whole armies.

You literally saw how some void elves were created in their recruitment scenario, and furthermore they were also introduced prior to the expansion, as they are marketed as a Legion allied race. Their recruitment happens at the end of Legion, not at the beginning of BfA.

We saw how a trap created by the void lords got interrupted haphazardly in the middle. I honestly doubt they'd use the same process-- a process which, again, we have no lore about other then (insert Admiral Ackbar meme) "it's a trap!"-- that could potentially kill the other elves.

[FlubberPuddy]

@Ielenia and @DeicideUH you're arguing with a bonafide Void Elf defender who pledges their life for Void Elves and thinks they're the most amazing thing ever. I'd drop it.

Everyone knows how shit Void Elves are, I've already shown many threads on that particular subject just through a simple Google search of 'void elves have shit lore'.

Void Elves are the trashiest race ever made playable so far. It's like DeicideUH said, people can like trash but that doesn't make it not trash. There's plenty of trashy movies that have fans.

Popularity =/= NOT trash.

- - - Updated - - -

Open the account page of this tweet: https://twitter.com/The_Solista/stat...433711104?s=20

Hm... So Void elf players also want High elves? Why?

Oh yeah yeah

This is how I assume most people feel. I even had a guildie yesterday on Classic saying that Void Elves aren't super great but that they have always wished to play Thalassians on the Alliance and this is the closest thing.

It's the same reason you can see that Blood Elves are so popular, they are the most attractive race on the Horde and people flocked to 'generic looking elves' regardless. Because they look good and were the only race that looked good for years.

After Zandalari release we see their numbers reducing, I also suspect after Vulpera - we will also see Blood Elf numbers reduce, especially with another level cap increase.

Surprisingly enough, when Void Elves shot up through Alliance population ranks, there was not a decrease to the Blood Elf % population.

This kills the argument that some say about, "if they released High Elves you would get population imbalance because all the Blood Elves would race change!!" because then why didn't that happen with Void Elves?

Simply not true, because it's obvious those that play Blood Elves not only enjoy the race but also enjoy the Horde. They've been playing Horde because that's the faction they enjoy most, and been playing Blood Elves because they look attractive.

If "Void Elves are better than High Elves and HE release would make BE players switch" then we would've seen a decrease in % from Blood Elf population if tons of people were actually race changing because "I love Alliance but I love Blood Elves more so I'm sticking with Horde until Alliance gets High Elves" was actually a true statement for the majority.

[Varodoc]

Was it? How do you know she couldn't transform already, but chose not to?

Because after she transformed thanks to L'ura, she mentions how she is something more ----> She was not a void elf and did not have a void form before.

The point is none of that is specific void elf lore development. It's just simple stuff that any other mage could do.

This logic is so asinine. It's like saying that Warcraft III isn't Arthas' development because even a pandaren could have become the Lich King's champion. No, the void elves did those things, so it's void elves' development.

For the purposes of the story being told, what would be the difference from a mage teleporting those Horde soldiers into the bottom of the sea... or into the belly of an active volcano? None. Again, none of that is void elf lore. There's no development to their lore. We don't find out anything more about their origins, how they came to be, how more void elves are created, they didn't learn new things to do with their powers, nothing.

The answer to the first two questions was already explained and SHOWn in Legion. If more void elves can be created, the answer will be revealed in a future expansion. Blizzard took years to explain how more forsaken are created, this is no different.

Also, then I suppose that Vereesa never appeared in the Siege of Orgrimmar and had no development at all, since her role could have been taken up by any random ranger who can shoot arrows.

Apples and oranges. Orcs already had truck-loads of development, and they had their "come back" in the form of the orcs of AU Draenor fighting the demons. And the journey to Argus was a draenei expedition, in which they allowed champions of the other races to come, not whole armies.

Except that it's not different. The orcs had as much beef with Kil'jaeden as the draenei, and yet they were nowhere to be seen in 7.2, thus following the flawed logic of you people the orcs were also a failure from a lore perspective.

The highmountain tauren also have as much beef with N'Zoth as the void elves, since the old gods attempted to destroy Highmountain, and yet they are nowhere to be seen in 8.3. The highmountain tauren are also a failure from a lore perspective then.

We saw how a trap created by the void lords got interrupted haphazardly in the middle. I honestly doubt they'd use the same process-- a process which, again, we have no lore about other then (insert Admiral Ackbar meme) "it's a trap!"-- that could potentially kill the other elves.

Except that we know how void elves came to be, they were normal elves who had a lot of void energy put into their body.

@Ielenia and @DeicideUH you're arguing with a bonafide Void Elf defender who pledges their life for Void Elves and thinks they're the most amazing thing ever. I'd drop it.

It's fun to live in your own little black and white world where you can put words in people's mouths, isn't it?

Everyone knows how shit Void Elves are

Citation needed.

I've already shown many threads on that particular subject just through a simple Google search of 'void elves have shit lore'.

Uhm, No, you showed only four threads out of the thousands upon thousands that exist, threads which had several people (myself included) who defended void elves. Besides, there are as many threads that are about how shitty Alliance-aligned high elves are and how trash Vereesa is, and we even have a statement from Ion countering everything you stand for, and yet that's not enough to shut you up, so I don't see why I should.

Void Elves are the trashiest race ever made playable so far. It's like DeicideUH said, people can like trash but that doesn't make it not trash. There's plenty of trashy movies that have fans.

Popularity =/= NOT trash.

Popularity = Success, but reading is hard.

[Florena]

If you don't like void elves, that's fine. I think they could use more development too. But I like them and don't see how they're 'trash.' Sure, they're a new race, and it would have been nice to see more of them before their recruitment. But they're also spinning off of blood elves so we didn't need all that much because of how well established thalnassian elves already are.

Their transformation is new, sure, but the way I see it it seems to basically have been similar to what happened to the ethereals but stopped part way. Even if it was entirely new, new lore doesn't mean bad.

I hope to see more done with them. Some butting of heads between them and the lightforged for example. But just because blizzard hasn't used them to their full potential doesn't mean they're bad or lack potential for the future either.

As for the points of 'oh any mage could have done that' that applies to anyone really. You could swap out anything Vereesa does with a human hunter and get the same results. This goes both ways.

Sure Umbric's mission to take out Gallywix failed, that doesn't mean they've contributed nothing either. That's not even the only mission Umbric and the void elves were involved with.

As far as Alleria goes I'd say she counts. Sure she wasn't painted blue, but she's an elf that uses the void and hears the whispers of the void. That she didn't turn blue is just a surface level thing really, she's a void elf in the ways that it actually matters: Looking to use the void to defend Azeroth and contending with its whispers constantly as a price for that power, using it in service of the Alliance. Trying to say she doesn't count IMO is like trying to say Nathanos doesn't count as Forsaken because he has a better preserved body.

[Aldo Hawk]

Simply not true, because it's obvious those that play Blood Elves not only enjoy the race but also enjoy the Horde. They've been playing Horde because that's the faction they enjoy most, and been playing Blood Elves because they look attractive.

This is 100% my case. I don't need High elves if I ever wanted to play Alliance, but I simply didn't untill now, because I simply like the Horde more, and no High elf would make me change by itself. First of all I would have to find any motive for it. New Alliance friends, overall, which would be a good motive and honestly I can't come up with another one.

High elves are wanted for the lore. Without stretching into pedantic limits, it's simply because these have always been there. It can't be said more clear than that.

[Varodoc]

If you don't like void elves, that's fine. I think they could use more development too.

A point which I agree with, but which is also not related solely to the void elves. I dare say that the void elves have it better than, say, the gnomes. The void elves got to play an important role pretty quickly in the Battle of Lordaeron, while the gnomes would have to wait several years before having a place in the spotlight (with the Operation: Gnomeregan).

[Aldo Hawk]

If you don't like void elves, that's fine. I think they could use more development too. But I like them and don't see how they're 'trash.' Sure, they're a new race, and it would have been nice to see more of them before their recruitment. But they're also spinning off of blood elves so we didn't need all that much because of how well established thalnassian elves already are.

Yeah, most of their lore is Blood elf lore, if you add that to them, they actually have plenty of it. But after the recruitment scenario, there is not much of it.

Their transformation is new, sure, but the way I see it it seems to basically have been similar to what happened to the ethereals but stopped part way. Even if it was entirely new, new lore doesn't mean bad.

Nightborne and Highmountain are also new lore, and they are more explained and fleshed out than Void elves.

Being new is not the problem.

I hope to see more done with them. Some butting of heads between them and the lightforged for example. But just because blizzard hasn't used them to their full potential doesn't mean they're bad or lack potential for the future either.

Me too, I hope they can make them feel less outworldly, in the sense of being a part of Warcraft and not a half assed concept running around.

As for the points of 'oh any mage could have done that' that applies to anyone really. You could swap out anything Vereesa does with a human hunter and get the same results. This goes both ways.

Exactly. However, context and consequences are what makes the happenings make the involved characters to be replaceable or not.

[Florena]

A point which I agree with, but which is also not related solely to the void elves. I dare say that the void elves have it better than, say, the gnomes. The void elves got to play an important role pretty quickly in the Battle of Lordaeron, while the gnomes would have to wait several years before having a place in the spotlight (with the Operation: Gnomeregan).

Yeah, WoW has always had trouble trying to give develoment and screentime to all its races.

[united]

If you don't like void elves, that's fine. I think they could use more development too. But I like them and don't see how they're 'trash.'

They aren't. People call them trash because they aren't high elves, which is pretty unfair.

[Florena]

Part of the issue I think is that blizz, while they seem to thnk in their heads that high elves are a dying scattered breed, was just never able to let go of using them. In some expansions they get more spotlight than actual playable races like gnomes. If blizzard had committed to this, and had only the occasional high elf npc about in the world, then there wouldn't be much of a case for them.

But instead? We get Alleria Stronghold in BC, we get the SIlver Covenant in Wrath (which while part of Dalaran were very pro alliance and against letting the horde into the city.) In MOP they got some spotlight via dalaran again. In Legion they had a presence in the Suramar campaign and Elisande even took the time to comment on them.

So I don't really buy the population argument even from blizzard because if that was true, they wouldn't have as much screen time as they've gotten over the years.

I can however see why Blizzard wouldn't add high elves because they don't offer much to the overall cast of player races. Ever since blood elves lost their edge at the end of BC, there hasn't been that much cultural difference between them anymore. With void elves, love them or hate them, they bring the whole void theme which is not something any player race has focused on. Sure there are some shadow priests here and there but that's about it. So there's some story POTENTIAL that void elves have there that no other race really does. (Whether said potential is used or not, that's another matter.)

I wonder how this might play out if blizzard 'does' end up changing the faction system in 9.0 but unless they announce something for that at blizzcon it's just speculation.

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They aren't. People call them trash because they aren't high elves, which is pretty unfair.

They could have used more development, but in terms of actually justifying being an allied race and not just extra cosmetic options for existing races, and offering a new spin for a player race story wise, they did a lot better than highmountain or lightforged, and I found the Nightborne to be fairly lacking in choices as well unless they got more patched in later.

[Ielenia]

Because after she transformed thanks to L'ura, she mentions how she is something more ----> She was not a void elf and did not have a void form before.

Not conclusive evidence. It could have just been the final step of her "apprenticeship" under Locus-Walker.

This logic is so asinine. It's like saying that Warcraft III isn't Arthas' development because even a pandaren could have become the Lich King's champion. No, the void elves did those things, so it's void elves' development.

No, it couldn't, since Arthas' mental state and personality are what made him ideal to be the Lich King's champion and eventual successor. Other than that, Arthas' development in that instance is not human lore development. It's just Arthas' own development.

The answer to the first two questions was already explained and SHOWn in Legion.

False. Nothing was shown. We were simply told "it happened" or, at best, shown the very end of a very long process.

If more void elves can be created, the answer will be revealed in a future expansion. Blizzard took years to explain how more forsaken are created, this is no different.

We knew how more forsaken were "created" from vanilla WoW day 1. You were those who fell by the Scourge during WC3. Not everyone 'rises from the dead' at the same time. And again: allied races lack starting zones. That means a huge chunk of story that would normally be dedicated to their introduction is simply completely missing. Lightforged draenei at least were introduced in the expansion prior.

Also, then I suppose that Vereesa never appeared in the Siege of Orgrimmar and had no development at all, since her role could have been taken up by any random ranger who can shoot arrows.

She could, yes. Again: personal development =/= race development.

Except that it's not different. The orcs had as much beef with Kil'jaeden as the draenei, and yet they were nowhere to be seen in 7.2, thus following the flawed logic of you people the orcs were also a failure from a lore perspective.

Apples and oranges. We've already gone through one and a half expansions that were centered on orc development (second half of MoP and all of WoD). The venture against the Tomb of Sargeras was a joint effort of all order halls, not a single race's crusade.

The highmountain tauren also have as much beef with N'Zoth as the void elves, since the old gods attempted to destroy Highmountain, and yet they are nowhere to be seen in 8.3. The highmountain tauren are also a failure from a lore perspective then.

You have a really hard time distinguishing apples and oranges, don't you? The reason we call the void elves a failure from a lore perspective is that they haven't been given any lore development at all! Highmountain tauren gained a lot of development. Orcs gained a truck-load of development. Void elves? They gained zero development. And to rub salt in the wound, one of the reasons Blizzard gave to include the void elves was because they fit the story they're telling, and yet they had basically zero participation in the story.

Except that we know how void elves came to be, they were normal elves who had a lot of void energy put into their body.

We don't. At best we know how Umbric and his research group, specifically, came to be. The playable void elves? Absolutely nada.

Last, but not least, stop removing the quote header when replying. It prevents MMO-Champion from warning me of a reply. The only reason I saw your reply is because I left the tab open. If you do this again next time you reply to me, I'll just ignore your post.

[Varodoc]

Not conclusive evidence. It could have just been the final step of her "apprenticeship" under Locus-Walker.

At this point you are just negating evidence for the sake of it. There is nothing ambiguous. Alleria was not a void elf until after she was hit by L'ura's essence, so much so that it's mentioned right after the cinematic that that transformation is a newfound power of Alleria. It is blatantly obvious that Alleria did not have access to that kind of power before, as she was not a void elf, so much so that she never transformed in times of need before, such as when she was fighting that lethal pitlord at the pools.

No, it couldn't, since Arthas' mental state and personality are what made him ideal to be the Lich King's champion and eventual successor. Other than that, Arthas' development in that instance is not human lore development. It's just Arthas' own development.

Except that there would be nothing stopping the writers from turning Lordaeron into a panda kingdom and having a panda who has Arthas' personality and mental state. And in the case of both Alleria and Umbric, they are not acting alone in BfA, they are always accompanied by a group of void elves -- or in the Battle of Lordaeron, an actual army.

False. Nothing was shown. We were simply told "it happened" or, at best, shown the very end of a very long process.

No. In both cases we are shown how those normal elves turned into void elves. Have you even played those quests?

We knew how more forsaken were "created" from vanilla WoW day 1. You were those who fell by the Scourge during WC3. Not everyone 'rises from the dead' at the same time. And again: allied races lack starting zones. That means a huge chunk of story that would normally be dedicated to their introduction is simply completely missing. Lightforged draenei at least were introduced in the expansion prior.

Void elves were also introduced in Legion. We know how void elves are created because we saw it with both Alleria and Umbric, and they are created by introducing a large amount of void energy into their bodies. Them not having a starting zone is false since their starting zone in Telogrus Rift, and that's where we learn and see how Umbric and his people were transformed.

Apples and oranges. We've already gone through one and a half expansions that were centered on orc development (second half of MoP and all of WoD). The venture against the Tomb of Sargeras was a joint effort of all order halls, not a single race's crusade.

And we've already gone through one major patch that featured the Void and the leader of the void elves extensively (7.3).

You have a really hard time distinguishing apples and oranges, don't you? The reason we call the void elves a failure from a lore perspective is that they haven't been given any lore development at all!

False again, as I have proven several times.

We don't. At best we know how Umbric and his research group, specifically, came to be. The playable void elves? Absolutely nada.

The playable void elves are part of Umbric's group and were turned along with him. Also, we know how Alleria was transformed since we saw it.

[DeicideMoron]

Hey there!

Long time mmochamp lurker here

Just made this account to voice my thoughts on DeicideUH...

This moron is such a sook... A big salty sook...

Every time i see something he has posted i just cringe... Dudes basically a fan-fiction writer whom gets super menstrual when people don't agree with him and his machinations.

He is the only person on here that isn't the slightest bit constructive, and always seems like hes out to challenge everyone else's views and opinions no matter what they may be... Needs to stop getting his flaps in a twist that's for sure.

Anyways that's all from me.
Have an awesome day everyone

[Aldo Hawk]

They aren't. People call them trash because they aren't high elves, which is pretty unfair.

They would still be trash if High elves were playable.

The explanations on why they aren't well done can be found in this very thread, and I think you haven't spent any time on weighting it.

I can pretty much say the same thing, you say they are not trash just to say others say it because they aren't High elves.

[bdlovelace]

Nice way to try and twist it but they are alliance npc's and I don't have time for trolls. /bye.

actually theyre all neutral citizens of dalaran elves. the actual alliance ones are in SW. theres 2 and they even say <Stormwind> beneath them

[Varodoc]

They would still be trash if High elves were playable.

The explanations on why they aren't well done can be found in this very thread, and I think you haven't spent any time on weighting it.

I can pretty much say the same thing, you say they are not trash just to say others say it because they aren't High elves.

I'm not sure I understand your first sentence, since high elves are indeed playable.

[Garfurion]

It's not separated. She is a void elf and even considers herself one. You need glasses if you think she looks nothing like the other void elves. Just because she can revert to her high elf form doesn't mean she "looks nothing like them". And following that same argument, then Garrosh's lore in MoP and Cataclysm did not qualify as orcs' lore.

I think Alleria identifies with the Void Elves as a faction but Ion Hazzikostas called Alleria a High Elf in a Q&A and I'm not familiar with any official more recent lore source stating otherwise.

Indeed, we saw the incident that created the first one of them, who became their leader, and then the incident that created Umbric and his group. Given how it took a decade to finally see how the forsaken created more of them, I don't have a problem with Blizzard taking their time with showing that.

The Forsaken were originally the remnants of entire armies and so could survive for decades without new "recruits" without going extinct.

The Void Elves were introduced as a crack elite squad. How many do you think there were originally ? How many did you see originally transform together with Umbric, 10, 20 ?

By any reasonable estimation, given that they went on suicide missions (which tend to be bad for ones health), Void Elves should already be extinct.

They certainly don't have decades to wait for Blizzard to come up with a solution since they will probably all have gone mad before that happens.

[Varodoc]

I think Alleria identifies with the Void Elves as a faction but Ion Hazzikostas called Alleria a High Elf in a Q&A and I'm not familiar with any official more recent lore source stating otherwise.



The Forsaken were originally the remnants of entire armies and so could survive for decades without new "recruits" without going extinct.

The Void Elves were introduced as a crack elite squad. How many do you think there were originally ? How many did you see originally transform together with Umbric, 10, 20 ?

By any reasonable estimation, given that they went on suicide missions (which tend to be bad for ones health), Void Elves should already be extinct.

They certainly don't have decades to wait for Blizzard to come up with a solution since they will probably all have gone mad before that happens.

I don't recall Ion saying that. Can I have the source of that statement? I'd be interested to see what the context was. Actually, I think I found that interview on wowhead just now, and what Ion said is rather ambiguous. He said, in the context of high elves' presence in WoW, that we just met Alleria again (obviously referring to the events of 7.3), but again what he probably meant to say is that Alleria was indeed a high elf -- for the majority of 7.3 -- but then as we all know she was transformed by L'ura's power and became the first of the void elf.

As for the forsaken and void elves comparison I made, it appears that the void elves are not on the brink of extinction after all -- you answered yourself, in fact. Suicide squad. If Alleria can afford to send some troops into a suicide squad, it means that the void elves are not on the verge of extinction after all. Since Alleria is not retarded, she wouldn't send several void elven troops to suicide if she knew her people neared extinction. Also, at the Battle of Lordaeron we can see that the void elves were able to muster quite the army, with several ren'dorei rangers accompanying Alleria into battle.

Also, in-game scale is never reliable. Yes, there were like 20 NPCs with Umbric, but obviously it doesn't mean there were only 20 void elves in the lore. There might have been hundreds, possibly one thousand (which would be enough to muster small but elite armies).

Let's be honest, when have numbers ever mattered? Yes, the ren'dorei were introduced as a crack elite squad, just as the darkspear trolls were introduced as the smallest and weakest of the jungle trolls. And yet they are still kicking around after a decade (of in-universe years).

This brings me to my next point. The "decade" I mentioned is a decade in our years. From The Frozen Throne to Cataclysm it was like a decade, No? In-universe it was like 3 years though. So again, we might learn more about the void elves' reproduction and the means they can expand their population in one or two expansions, which could be 5 years in our world, but just 2 years on Azeroth.

[Garfurion]

A point which I agree with, but which is also not related solely to the void elves. I dare say that the void elves have it better than, say, the gnomes. The void elves got to play an important role pretty quickly in the Battle of Lordaeron, while the gnomes would have to wait several years before having a place in the spotlight (with the Operation: Gnomeregan).

Gnomes were introduced in Warcraft II and had several units in it so I don't think you can compare them.

Gnomes were part of Warcraft lore before WoW and have been visible as NPCs from the start. Classic WoW didn't focus a lot on playable race factions but they had Tinkertown, the Deep Run Tram (build by Gnomes) and a dungeon referencing them in Gnomeregan. In Outland and Northrend the Gnomes had their own towns and additional information regarding their origins.