1. #12821
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Issilian View Post
    Ok so I've been lurking on this thread for a while now, a couple of questions.

    Regardless of how many times Blizzard says "Blood Elves are High Elves" the seven of you just seem to stick your fingers in your ears and go "nanananana" and ignore it, why is that? It's been stated by pretty much every iteration of the lead design team since Cataclysm that this is the way things are, the detractors keep posting links to tweets, interviews, posts, and comments by the design team, lore designers and lead devs and yet they are dismissed. Why? I mean I get that you really want it, but at this stage, five years and almost 700 posts down the line the "if we keep asking for it" line isn't going anywhere.

    Secondly, with the new custom character designs coming probably with the Shadowlands pre-patch there is a VERY high likelihood that Blood Elves will get the blue-eyed character customization, that would kinda blow a hole in your arguments wouldn't it?
    For many of the supporters for playable High Elven exiles, it essentially comes down to a question of faction and heritage as opposed to fantasy genetics. "Blood Elves are High Elves" is a true statement - Blood Elves are High Elves who made a political choice to re-style their society in light of a national tragedy and break old allegiances entirely in favor of a "new destiny" that ended up being with the Horde. The current High Elves are those who did not choose this as their path, and broke away from the Blood Elven contingent (the majority of their remaining people) electing not to embrace Mana Tapping, and keeping their allegiance to the Alliance instead.

    It's a political and social distinction, but an important one within the story itself. It's also represented in-game with Alliance-affiliated High Elven exiles all over Dalaran, in a few redoubts such as Highvale in the Hinterlands, and so on. Though few in number, the High Elven exiles are an important element of the game story for many, and oft-repeated "Blood Elves are High Elves" can be construed as sweeping this important story element of both the Blood Elves and the High Elven exiles under the proverbial rug.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  2. #12822
    Honestly I think we can end the discussion about if High elves will come later into the game, in shadowlands Blizzard said that they will create alot and I mean ALOT more options for the existing/core races. Which means that void elves will (to almost 100%) get a lighter skin color which will make them look, like high elves

  3. #12823
    Void elves aren't an elite squad, they are a faction and just the FACT that they became an allied race and High Elves didn't prove that there are more of them. By the logic that's being used by most of the people in this thread.

    But it's actually not the conversation that I want to have, what interests me is the sideways conversation of why you guys cling to it?

    The quote in Obelisk Kai's signature should have killed this conversation, at least until Ion leaves the position of Game Director or makes a statement to the opposite. Your interest has been made known to the company and nothing has happened, no progress at all.

    A very standard line in community management is "get enough people to show interest and we'll take a look", this isn't just Blizzard, this is CM's everywhere their job is to listen to communities, break them down into manageable bits and feed them back to the devs, then inform the player base what's going on. Basic stuff. Now, years later you've done that, you've made a fuss, over and over and over and nothing's happened. A few models pop up from time to time, probably cus the designer in working that project thinks "that looks cool", not "lets hint at some elves". The design team knows that you want them and at this stage, it's like messaging that person that you went on a coffee date with years ago and who never responds to your DMs again, and again, and again. I really genuinely want to know, what drives you?
    Last edited by Issilian; 2019-11-07 at 03:02 PM.

  4. #12824
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    For many of the supporters for playable High Elven exiles, it essentially comes down to a question of faction and heritage as opposed to fantasy genetics. "Blood Elves are High Elves" is a true statement - Blood Elves are High Elves who made a political choice to re-style their society in light of a national tragedy and break old allegiances entirely in favor of a "new destiny" that ended up being with the Horde. The current High Elves are those who did not choose this as their path, and broke away from the Blood Elven contingent (the majority of their remaining people) electing not to embrace Mana Tapping, and keeping their allegiance to the Alliance instead.

    It's a political and social distinction, but an important one within the story itself. It's also represented in-game with Alliance-affiliated High Elven exiles all over Dalaran, in a few redoubts such as Highvale in the Hinterlands, and so on. Though few in number, the High Elven exiles are an important element of the game story for many, and oft-repeated "Blood Elves are High Elves" can be construed as sweeping this important story element of both the Blood Elves and the High Elven exiles under the proverbial rug.
    These are the kind of replies I was looking for, and I do agree with you that the few High Elves that remain are important for the feel of the setting. Maybe to some extent too important to be left in the hands of players. This is the traditional Elf story we've seen since Tolkien, the death of a culture, honour. Stuck in their own pride, with so few of them left, their numbers dwindling with each skirmish, it would make sense to basically just name all of them and tell the story of how their star faded that way?

  5. #12825
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity River View Post
    But the Blood elves belong to the Horde identity hence why the devs compromised and gave void elves, they got the model now they want more.

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    You have to look at it froma Blood elves way aswell if you give the Alliance the exact same model with only different coloured eyes you are diminishing blood elf lore and it could potentially separate the playerbase too much into the Alliances favour, there is not much difference in faction representation atm and i think Blizz want to keep it that way.
    It is not about the model, but about the identity of the high elves.
    If you want a murloc and the give you nagas, you will still ask for murloc.
    Peoples ask for high elven, not because they where a kind of blood elves, but because they fulfill the fantasy and the script that has been formed since warcarft 2: high elves for the alliance (not blood elves or void elves)

    respect to the model, in vanilla, the high elves had the same model as the night elves, and they changed it to introduce Blood elves in BC

  6. #12826
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity River View Post
    You have to look at it froma Blood elves way aswell if you give the Alliance the exact same model with only different coloured eyes you are diminishing blood elf lore and it could potentially separate the playerbase too much into the Alliances favour, there is not much difference in faction representation atm and i think Blizz want to keep it that way.
    That's why i think they just need to give HElves a new model, Nozdormu style

  7. #12827
    But how can we now get humans with Asian eyes out of the blue while they were NEVER ever seen? But a few High Elves cant repopulate because they arent enough? OKAY BLIZZARD, OKAY :S

  8. #12828
    Quote Originally Posted by Issilian View Post
    Void elves aren't an elite squad, they are a faction and just the FACT that they became an allied race and High Elves didn't prove that there are more of them. By the logic that's being used by most of the people in this thread.
    They were presented by Ion as such. An elite squad of blood elves...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ksehsatoo View Post
    But how can we now get humans with Asian eyes out of the blue while they were NEVER ever seen? But a few High Elves cant repopulate because they arent enough? OKAY BLIZZARD, OKAY :S
    That's the thing. High elves separated from blood elves for almost 9 years or more.
    How much a population can grow in that time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    That's why i think they just need to give HElves a new model, Nozdormu style
    Agree with that.

  9. #12829
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    High elves are wanted because they are part of the Alliance, they are seen there, that's the fundamental reason, you can add up to that, and be more or less correct, but that is a fact that can't be revoked, and as long as that fact is true they will be wanted.

    Let's not forget that the same happens with the Horde, with the sole difference that Taunka, Forest Trolls or Ogres aren't in the Alliance, that is a big reason for the constant backlash and discussion. In fact, these three Horde 'races' have less appearances than High elves, but you see, they still are actual Horde members that you can't play, just like High elves in the Alliance.

    This discussion has had enough trickery, we don't need filler, misleading, unimportant, questionable, harassing, clumsy arguments that are just inconsequential at the end of the day, or loads and loads of questions that are only meant to derive the discussion into a myriad of points that lead nowhere.

    At the end of the day, it's just a fact of you liking it or not, because, and I am sorry if you still believe you can shut down the request by bursting aggressively in the discussion, the very fact that sustains the request is a lore staple that has been maintained since day one of WoW, there are High elves in the Alliance, and players can't play as them.

  10. #12830
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity River View Post
    You have to look at it froma Blood elves way aswell if you give the Alliance the exact same model with only different coloured eyes you are diminishing blood elf lore and it could potentially separate the playerbase too much into the Alliances favour, there is not much difference in faction representation atm and i think Blizz want to keep it that way.
    I don't disagree, and as a Blood Elf on my main character I wouldn't appreciate if the High Elves were just a 1:1 copy of an existing race for the Alliance. I'm a proponent of a story-based and gameplay-enhancing change to the High Elven exile model and aesthetic that cultivates a distinctly different playable race from the existing Blood Elves. There have been a lot of different models and examples of how that could be brought about, all of them equally exciting and most importantly underscoring a deep difference between the High Elven exiles and their Blood Elven kin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Issilian View Post
    These are the kind of replies I was looking for, and I do agree with you that the few High Elves that remain are important for the feel of the setting. Maybe to some extent too important to be left in the hands of players. This is the traditional Elf story we've seen since Tolkien, the death of a culture, honour. Stuck in their own pride, with so few of them left, their numbers dwindling with each skirmish, it would make sense to basically just name all of them and tell the story of how their star faded that way?
    If that's the way they wanted the story to go, it would be suitable to me. I'm neither a partisan nor a hard-liner, as it were. If the status quo were maintained I'd appreciate a playable High Elven race because it's an element of the game I'd enjoy playing within and seeing represented more in-game, as it were. But if they want to close the book on High Elves and see them dwindle into nothing then that is okay as well, so long as the story gets told visibly and they get an appropriate send-off in terms of quality. But as the rolling debate was more about the idea of playable High Elven exiles, that was more the model of the discussion I was having.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  11. #12831
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    It is not about the model, but about the identity of the high elves.
    If you want a murloc and the give you nagas, you will still ask for murloc.
    Peoples ask for high elven, not because they where a kind of blood elves, but because they fulfill the fantasy and the script that has been formed since warcarft 2: high elves for the alliance (not blood elves or void elves)

    respect to the model, in vanilla, the high elves had the same model as the night elves, and they changed it to introduce Blood elves in BC
    In Warcraft 3 there's an entire scenario that plays out of the High Elves actually breaking their alliance with the Alliance due to what happened with Garithos. The only High Elves still loyal to the Alliance are those that weren't ever really part of High Elven society to begin with, the self exiles or those who were on long missions away from Azeroth and weren't around to witness the crap that happened that caused the high Elves to leave the Alliance and change their name to Blood Elves.

    A tiny fraction of the High Elven race exist as non-Blood Elves.

    I'm not debating their likelihood of ever becoming an Alliance Race, just pointing out the history. That the Alliance aligned High Elves are the exception to the rule, there aren't enough of them to warrant an entire culture as they didn't cling to any specific culture at that point anyway. The culture of High Elves now belongs to the Blood Elves as the Blood Elves represent the population that stayed in the cities and maintained a society. A bunch of lodges completely segregated from each other, small packs of HE's living completely under the radar and a group that stayed and lived in Dalaran don't make up a "society" or a culture. That's like saying a bunch of Americans leave the city they live in, separately, go start living in the mountains and don't interact with anyone for years, and all survive separately and saying that those people are now the American culture...that's ridiculous.

  12. #12832
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity River View Post
    But the Blood elves belong to the Horde identity hence why the devs compromised and gave void elves, they got the model now they want more.

    You have to look at it froma Blood elves way aswell if you give the Alliance the exact same model with only different coloured eyes you are diminishing blood elf lore and it could potentially separate the playerbase too much into the Alliances favour, there is not much difference in faction representation atm and i think Blizz want to keep it that way.
    As a Blood elf main for the most part of a decade, I have to say that High elves on the Alliance is pretty much just another part of the whole story, cutting it out is actually erasing part of the Blood elves' lore.

    It's just enriching, ignoring it doesn't make the Blood elves better, and having players on the Alliance as High elves would be another complement that just enforces the Blood elf player's experience, since it's another part of the lore surrounding them, you delete High elves? You also delete part of what Blood elves are.

  13. #12833
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity River View Post
    You have to look at it froma Blood elves way aswell if you give the Alliance the exact same model with only different coloured eyes you are diminishing blood elf lore and it could potentially separate the playerbase too much into the Alliances favour, there is not much difference in faction representation atm and i think Blizz want to keep it that way.
    Who says they would only have different eye color? Look at Alleria. She has blue body tattoos and with the new customization options, it's easy to give them that.

  14. #12834
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    But if they want to close the book on High Elves and see them dwindle into nothing then that is okay as well, so long as the story gets told visibly and they get an appropriate send-off in terms of quality.
    That kinda has been the story they have been telling since Burning Crusade, the rise of the Blood Elves was the first step. And I do agree that doing the story of it right would be important, and good fun. Last of a dying race is a fantasy trope that can be used to tell some very powerful stories.


    As for using the new human character models as an excuse, oh come off it. I've been inactive for a while, so I can't post links, but a little googling will do the trick for you.

    About 70000 years ago humanity almost died out due to a genetic bottleneck, something called The Toba eruption. There were so few of us left that we would from all intents and purposes have succumbed to inbreeding over a few generations, High Elves seems to have hit that level of low. The difference between them and Void Elves is that the VE's can create new members of their race not just through birth, but also through "void corruption", that's a big difference. Then, of course, the counter-argument is HEs can change the minds of their BE counterparts and they can defect to the Alliance, so it's kinda circular, I get that, but when BEs defect it seems to be because they join the VEs.

  15. #12835
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    Quote Originally Posted by How dare you View Post
    Who says they would only have different eye color? Look at Alleria. She has blue body tattoos and with the new customization options, it's easy to give them that.
    To be fair, the Tattoos is not something that all High elves have, is more of a Thalassian ranger stuff

  16. #12836
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    In Warcraft 3 there's an entire scenario that plays out of the High Elves actually breaking their alliance with the Alliance due to what happened with Garithos. The only High Elves still loyal to the Alliance are those that weren't ever really part of High Elven society to begin with, the self exiles or those who were on long missions away from Azeroth and weren't around to witness the crap that happened that caused the high Elves to leave the Alliance and change their name to Blood Elves.

    A tiny fraction of the High Elven race exist as non-Blood Elves.

    I'm not debating their likelihood of ever becoming an Alliance Race, just pointing out the history. That the Alliance aligned High Elves are the exception to the rule, there aren't enough of them to warrant an entire culture as they didn't cling to any specific culture at that point anyway. The culture of High Elves now belongs to the Blood Elves as the Blood Elves represent the population that stayed in the cities and maintained a society. A bunch of lodges completely segregated from each other, small packs of HE's living completely under the radar and a group that stayed and lived in Dalaran don't make up a "society" or a culture. That's like saying a bunch of Americans leave the city they live in, separately, go start living in the mountains and don't interact with anyone for years, and all survive separately and saying that those people are now the American culture...that's ridiculous.
    Those high elves who broke their ties with the alliance were led by Kael to later become blood elves. Much has happened since then, including the separation of a group of high elves (1% of the remaining population), and since that time the blood elves have mutated in some way to consider them a race apart from the high elves thanks to the fel energy corruption (only for a slight aesthetic change).

    That tiny faction of high elves could have grow since that time

  17. #12837
    Titan Maxilian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Issilian View Post
    About 70000 years ago humanity almost died out due to a genetic bottleneck, something called The Toba eruption. There were so few of us left that we would from all intents and purposes have succumbed to inbreeding over a few generations, High Elves seems to have hit that level of low. The difference between them and Void Elves is that the VE's can create new members of their race not just through birth, but also through "void corruption", that's a big difference. Then, of course, the counter-argument is HEs can change the minds of their BE counterparts and they can defect to the Alliance, so it's kinda circular, I get that, but when BEs defect it seems to be because they join the VEs.
    We actually do not know if VE's children inherit their Void connection or are just like Worgen that are born with no curse/corruption, also... we do not even know if they can reproduce (is plausible to say that the void corruption make pregnancy impossible or just harder)

  18. #12838
    Quote Originally Posted by Ignaz View Post
    Those high elves who broke their ties with the alliance were led by Kael to later become blood elves. Much has happened since then, including the separation of a group of high elves (1% of the remaining population), and since that time the blood elves have mutated in some way to consider them a race apart from the high elves thanks to the fel energy corruption (only for a slight aesthetic change).

    That tiny faction of high elves could have grow since that time
    Oh I agree, but that still doesn't mean that the population that exists is somehow a united, cohesive society and therefore have a collective culture as one group of people. The only collective that really has a leg to stand on as far as a cohesive group and possibly culture are the Silver Hand from Dalaran.

    I could see using that specific group as a springboard for a playable race, that would make sense to me. Especially since the Void Elves are a playable race and their numbers were so much less than the High Elven population that was said to be tiny, so that can't be an excuse anymore, IMO.

    Just wanted to point out that the remaining High Elves are not a collective, unified, society with a uniform culture....they're "mountain men" who are almost self imposed exiles with the Silver Hand being the exception to that.

  19. #12839
    Quote Originally Posted by Serenity River View Post
    She was apart of the same culture before she left so she's actually wearing and appears how Blood Elves should through heritage, those tattoos and looks should go to Blood Elves.
    Yeah sure. Make Blood Elves look like High Elves. That makes sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxilian View Post
    To be fair, the Tattoos is not something that all High elves have, is more of a Thalassian ranger stuff
    That's true, but it is a great way to distinguish the race. It's not like every character has to use them, you always have an option not to use things like tattoos at all.

    Obviously those tattoos wouldn't be the only thing. They should also have their own blue-colored heritage armor, a unicorn mount and their own High Elf themed racials, and it would be just fine. I really don't see a problem with it, I think Blizzard is just stubborn for no reason with this.

  20. #12840
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    Quote Originally Posted by How dare you View Post
    That's true, but it is a great way to distinguish the race. It's not like every character has to use them, you always have an option not to use things like tattoos at all.

    Obviously those tattoos wouldn't be the only thing. They should also have their own blue-colored heritage armor, a unicorn mount and their own High Elf themed racials, and it would be just fine. I really don't see a problem with it, I think Blizzard is just stubborn for no reason with this.
    Well the detail is that i would not be surprised if they add those tattoos option to the BEs now.

    Either way, i think that the best way to distinguish between those 2, is just to give HEs a different model.

    Even though both are the same race, it doesn't really matter, i mean... we do have HEs with other models and animations:

    http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2...ozdormuNEW.jpg

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