Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

There's a difference between someone contributing to make something be added to the game vs someone who constantly just looks for new ways to say "no" yet can't stay away from the conversation because what they actually want is a thread like this to die out.

See the thing is, whatever you're referring to as "refuse to accept what has been answered" isn't true at all. Otherwise mods would close this thread, just like if someone made a thread with any more shadowlands leaks it would get shut down because we know what entails the shadowlands and it's not anything like Sylvanas taking over Stormwind.

There's a difference between the two, and the developers haven't outright denied High Elves in some form happening on Alliance the way they deny those flying enthusiasts that wish to fly at the beginning of expansions and don't want Pathfinder.

Framing the pro-argument as a positive contribution while the anti-argument is 'just looking for new ways to say no' underlies the subtle attitudinal issue this debate triggers. I am sure that the pro High Elf community sees itself as a positive effort, determined to right a developer wrong and ensure that the classic line up of Alliance races is one day realised. In the service of that effort they form a community, they generate fan art, they submit feedback on the forums and they put up with a bunch of negative nay-sayers whose sole motive is to make them miserable and to enjoy that misery. Still, as the cause is virtuous, they will persist until their final success.

The problem with this viewpoint is that it's actually extremely limited. The pro High Elf community's grievance is borne from the same place so many aggrieved fandoms have been born from, that the franchise you are invested in has not developed along the ways you have wished and as such, it has somehow betrayed you. We see it in Star Trek, we see it in Star Wars, we see it everywhere and Warcraft is not immune with countless topics complaining about how Blizzard is deliberately making the game worse, which in many cases is the anger that the company in question isn't specifically addressing your particular pet grievance.

The story of the high elves of the Warcraft universe is that they left the Alliance, were almost wiped out by the Scourge (led by a former Alliance Prince), renamed themselves the Blood Elves, betrayed by an Alliance army who were actively trying to get them killed, permanently left the Alliance and eventually invited into the Horde. The pro High Elf grievance is that this is the accepted story of the franchise and not the version the pro High Elf community wants, which is that the real high elves are a tiny handful of malcontents who didn't go along with the vast majority of their people.

The pro High Elf community regularly rejects every answer given by Blizzard that goes against their version of Warcraft being recognized. From developer commentary that directly answered the request for high elves, to an emphasis on the importance of the faction system, to the creation of the Void Elves as a compromise, you are in fact told time and time again the answer on this matter and everyone outside the pro High Elf community seemingly can see what Blizzard is saying.

That they do not want to add high elves to the Alliance. That they value the distinctiveness between the factions more. That they are satisfied that a High Elf option exists in game. And that any pity or obligation they may have felt towards the Alliance was absolved with the addition of the Void Elves. They have listened to the far more vocal, far more numerous anti-pathfinding crowd for years now and they haven't budged. Just as pro High Elfers alone don't get to determine Void Elves aren't a compromise (when it's obvious that is their sole reason for even being added), so pro High Elfers alone don't get to say 'we've not been answered'. You've been answered far more often than was necessary on this topic.

P.S. As for the mods not closing this thread despite the topic almost certainly being done, whilst I can't presume to speak for the mods I would assume that a single thread to contain it is preferable to having five or six on the go at once.

As I said, because more people care about the aesthetics being there. As evidenced by the reveal of the new customizations coming to races and people aren't in an uproar over "omg we're not getting Wildhammer as an Allied Race " nor are people complaining that their desert looking troll comes from the jungle and will almost assuredly always be referenced as "we Darkspear" whenever their troll overlords speak to them. Almost no one (because I know there's always 1 person who will do anything possible) is going on a forum tirade that these new troll tribes aren't going to have specific racials or jokes or voice sounds because those things are vastly more minor than the aesthetic the model itself carries.

This is why I said before that we didn't have a huge uproar over Mag'har being from WoD vs Outland. Did it have some complainers? Yes, but nothing like how much shit Void Elves get nor how much people complain about Nightborne not looking like their NPC models for the playable model.

See everyone makes a little make-believe whenever they play their character, but there are certain features that are obviously more in your face than others. A Blood Elf getting blue eyes/hair will probably have people assuming it's a DK (just as current status quo), but a Blood Elf with dark brown skin is going to shatter any illusion about being a "fair-skinned elf" despite being described as such by Ion.

- - - Updated - - -

And with that new look of dark brown skin for a Blood Elf, it will enable people to RP however they wish to explain the new look, that is my point of differentiation.

The look enables the broader RP, the other way around as you’re trying to claim isn’t broad. Your way serves to explain the current status quo.

But all the new looks coming are serving to shake up the status quo, this has been my point the entire time and why I find your reasoning faulty.

As the overall customizations coming shake up the status quo (no more having undead that will have armor broken at certain parts to expose bones, having different ethnicities of humans, having different troll tribes rather than just a specific kind of jungle troll tribe, having different dwarf clans rather than just one).

Now you can always hearken back to believing “they will only do this with original races and not Allied Races” but it would just have me repeat my ‘being treated as second class’ commentary.

Not just that, but they haven’t mentioned any inkling of not shaking up the status quo for Allied Races. Ironically the only statement we’ve had regarding customization for an Allied Race was that it is possible they could get customization shaking up their status quo (Afrasiabi’s comment on possibility of High Elf skins coming to Void Elves). No mention though of your argument, “they will bring customization to these Allied Races that will reinforce their status quo looks.”

Once again, your reasoning does not make sense and is overly reliant on Afrasiabi's quote. I am not sure how often we have to go over this but a.) it wasn't a promise and b.) he spent far longer talking about forum etiquette. They created Void Elves specifically not to infringe on the thematic and aethetic integrity of the Blood Elves. Much as Ion mused openly about High Elves in 2014 before he and the rest sat down and thought things through (leading to Void Elves), so Afrasiabi's off hand comment only means the possibility exists, just as the possibility of high elves was opened up in 2014 for a brief moment until we learned otherwise. It is likelier that the same considerations which led them to create Void Elves, rather than High Elves, will still be brought up when Void Elves get their customization pass and that the result will likely be the same, that Void Elves will be kept distinct from Blood Elves, that they will remain their own thing.

I also believe there is enough feedback on the official forums to show that the skin types you are agitating for for Void Elves wouldn't be enough for the hardcore pro High Elf community, precisely for the reasons I have raised. That the specific origin and racials of Void Elves render it impossible to pretend to be anything other than Void Elf. Anyone who plays cannot and never will be able to pretend they were never transformed by the Void. Roleplaying only works when the background selected for your character is believable. You can roleplay your Void Elf any way you want, so long as you keep the one fixed point that all Void Elves share, that they were transformed by the void, now have a connection to the void and wield void energies. Even IF Void Elves get acceptable skin tones, roleplaying as a High Elf will not work because they won't be a traditional High Elf. They will always be a Void Elf and roleplaying can only exist in the parameters set by being a Void Elf. You could roleplay as a Silver Covenant member who went through the process of transformation, but you can't roleplay as one who never did.

[Shakana]

There's a difference between someone contributing to make something be added to the game vs someone who constantly just looks for new ways to say "no" yet can't stay away from the conversation because what they actually want is a thread like this to die out.

I'm going to put the hood on myself on this one: (i recommend you to read all if you're going to read, because i'm not just saying one little thing that is extended)

I don't even mind High elves. My actual question comes to: Why you come here daily? Try find something to convince blizzard? Because you say this "can't stay away from the conversation because what they actually want is a thread like this to die out", while blizzard literally replies you with void elves in the game, and you're still here everyday, and can't stay away. You say no, no, no. You keep trying and trying. (I'm saying "you" in general).

Those people come here and points out this, as i did, and what we get is someone thinking we want this thread to die out. When in reality, we are just like "i think you're wasting your time". We are not here to make the thread die. It won't die, as everyone knows a mega thread with so much pages won't ever just die like that, as people will keep to bring this up. I don't think anyone believes this thread will die anytime soon, if it didn't with void elves, won't surely die now.

All i want to say is i think everyone can be here regardless, discussing what they want and think, just like you are.

This being said, i come here and i say what i think. I gave too ideas how to introduce them. Changing even the way they look, just like Nozdormu. I also thought about High Elves being introduced in a way, that they would forgive the blood elves, but still join alliance. Even more now we are more or less in terms of "peace", they can have a change of heart.


As long as i don't get divided people with blue eyes on blood elves customization, and arguing, i'm ok with it. I just really hope you get what you want, but not on the cost of people arguing.

For void elves to have high elf customization, they would need to have also blood elves, because they are made of both. And that would be a problem between factions story-wise, means they would need to add aswell void elves as blood elves.

Or just hope for blizzard to do it once and for all, and add them with different features. Just like nightborne, they don't look too night elvish. They have their original appearance. And body stance. Just got the emotes sounds, and the same dance, and skeleton.

[FlubberPuddy]

SNIP

This whole portion ignores that there are High Elves that exist as part of the Alliance today. Who have had more screen time than any other unplayable NPC race that is associated with one of the two greater factions (Alliance or Horde).

Saying the High Elf story is continued to Blood Elves and solely ending there while ignoring the High Elves on Alliance, as well as the Void Elves now on Alliance (who carry all of Blood Elf lore along with High Elf lore) just shows your bias and non-objectivity while trying to act as if the pro High Elf side are the only ones being biased.

Also, nobody is quitting the game over not getting playable High Elves, so this isn't anywhere near Star Trek or Star Wars or WoW people talking about how Blizzard is driving the game into the ground. Are there some hyperbolists on the pro High Elf side? Sure. But by and large they are the minority.

Just as I'm sure you could find >1 people that love and appreciate and agree with every single decision that Blizzard or any other company has made or makes. Focusing on the existence of those few, while ignoring the greater majority isn't how game development works. As we see repeatedly with the development of WoW, its additions are based on what is the majority liked. Do Blizzard sometimes go too far? Yes, absolutely, but they also bring it back relatively quickly as well.

The bottom line though is that they base it all from player feedback that is the majority. Hence why you see a very scant few complaining about "going back to class identity" when they enjoyed spec identity. But we know that class identity is what was most asked for to be brought back.

And concerning High Elves, what is and will continue to show more is that there's a specific fantasy that exists on the Alliance as of even this current expansion which there's a large amount of people for. This High Elf community is the largest compared to other race requests, and I already made the arguments that Blizzard tends to go by majority feedback. It will look more and more frank when the only big thing being asked for race customization wise is High Elves.

P.S. As for the mods not closing this thread despite the topic almost certainly being done, whilst I can't presume to speak for the mods I would assume that a single thread to contain it is preferable to having five or six on the go at once.

Like I said, no one's going to make a thread with blatantly false information that's been confirmed false and expect it to be open. The number of threads on a specific topic doesn't matter, it is that there hasn't been a definite answer given that High Elves on Alliance are never going to happen.

Once again, your reasoning does not make sense and is overly reliant on Afrasiabi's quote. I am not sure how often we have to go over this but a.) it wasn't a promise and b.) he spent far longer talking about forum etiquette.

I think you should re-watch that question and its answer. He did not "spend far longer on forum etiquette" during the response to the Void Elf question. Prior to the Void Elf question there was another question that was asking about forum feedback which is where he spent a long time talking about the forum etiquette.

But his High Elf skin answer to Void Elves question was literally 3 short points 1) It's possible 2) Don't give up hope 3) Be respectful about it during posting. The long discussion of forum etiquette occurs almost 5 mins before the Void Elf High Elf skin question and then immediately after Afrasiabi's 3 main part reponse they dive into asking about Heritage armor unlocks.

And the "be respectful forum post" bit is certainly because there's a lot of toxicity coming from both sides on this topic. No one side is innocent, both are toxic about it. Blood Elf players have some imo pretty shitty/lame reasons for trying to lock out customization options from the Alliance players and Void Elf players and have had to put up with way more troll responses/comments than other Allied Race threads have had to, which in turn makes people suspect if they're actually trying to have a discussion with merits or just here to shit on people's parade. We can see that multiple times within this own thread, where there's often new accounts/passerby who just leave a troll-y comment and get flagged or banned for it more often from the anti-side. From the pro-side there is some bans/flags too but it's more due to people having lost patience to deal with trolls. Something that's perfectly acceptable and why I more often am preaching to just ignore people not looking to have an actual discussion.

Trying to "out-troll" one another doesn't achieve anything. And just causes headaches for forum moderators, which is most likely why Alex made that comment, cuz he understands the specific vitriol that comes with the High Elf topic compared to others. Like look at the recent datamine of Blood Elf DK eye change and people who came in here to troll "lol there's your high elves" and how rightly they were dealt with.

You do not see the same level thing occurring with those who wanted Vulpera or San'layn or Ogres or Gilbins. But for some reason there's a lot more trolls for the High Elf topic and thus there's a lot more people who take the bait.

- - - Updated - - -

SNIP

I think you're grouping too many people together. This thread has many different kinds of individuals and groups. There are:

1) People that want High Elves on Alliance
2) People that want High Elves through Void Elf skins
3) People that don't want either of the above
4) People that are trolls to the topic
5) People that say their piece and never come back (like yes for High Elves or no for High Elves)
6) People having conversations/debates with each other
7) People who have other ways to get a sort of High Elf (like Half Elf) that isn't 1) or 2)

Also, not many people come here daily, sometimes the thread doesn't have anyone talking in it for days or weeks or months. It's just when something related to it picks up, I think one of the more recent ones was seeing the High Elf ballistas at the end of the War Campaign in 8.2.5. Before that this thread wasn't getting much activity.

[Obelisk Kai]

This whole portion ignores that there are High Elves that exist as part of the Alliance today. Who have had more screen time than any other unplayable NPC race that is associated with one of the two greater factions (Alliance or Horde).

There is no way of saying without being blunt.

Nobody beyond the pro High Elf community cares about that. It is an irrelevant factor. Not only did Blizzard make Void Elves rather than give the Alliance High Elves, they even sourced those Void Elves from former Blood Elves. All Blizzard cared about is there is a traditional High Elf option available in the Blood Elves, they regard that as forming a part of the faction distinctiveness of the Horde, and they threw the Alliance a bone with a race that is pretty close to what they wanted but not exactly.

But all that stuff about them being part of the Alliance? The creation of Void Elves tells you all you need to know about that. So yes, it ignores those High Elven exiles aligned to the Alliance. Seemingly everyone else is, I just don't want to feel left out.

Saying the High Elf story is continued to Blood Elves and solely ending there while ignoring the High Elves on Alliance, as well as the Void Elves now on Alliance (who carry all of Blood Elf lore along with High Elf lore) just shows your bias and non-objectivity while trying to act as if the pro High Elf side are the only ones being biased.

Call it bias if you wish, but it is just the game maintaining the status quo. There was a far more visible Void Elf presence within BFA than you like to admit, and the fact I have seen people getting excited over the addition of one or two high elf npcs at a given time is a sign of desperation. Void Elves ARE the High Elves of the Alliance. Void Elves ARE the future of the High Elves within the Alliance. Part of the reason I have dropped the term Alliance High Elves in favour of High Elf exiles is that Alliance High Elf is also a synonym for Void Elves, as unlike the Dalaran dwelling high elf exiles, the Void Elves are unquestionably a part of the Alliance.

Also, nobody is quitting the game over not getting playable High Elves, so this isn't anywhere near Star Trek or Star Wars or WoW people talking about how Blizzard is driving the game into the ground. Are there some hyperbolists on the pro High Elf side? Sure. But by and large they are the minority.


Just as I'm sure you could find >1 people that love and appreciate and agree with every single decision that Blizzard or any other company has made or makes. Focusing on the existence of those few, while ignoring the greater majority isn't how game development works. As we see repeatedly with the development of WoW, its additions are based on what is the majority liked. Do Blizzard sometimes go too far? Yes, absolutely, but they also bring it back relatively quickly as well.

The bottom line though is that they base it all from player feedback that is the majority. Hence why you see a very scant few complaining about "going back to class identity" when they enjoyed spec identity. But we know that class identity is what was most asked for to be brought back.

Several people over the course of this debate have said they have quit the game because High Elves weren't announced for the Alliance. But that isn't the point, you don't invalidate a comparison by attempting to make them match exactly. The point is that the complaint of the pro High Elfer community is that Warcraft has unfolded in a way contrary to the way they wished it would and they have been very vocal in trying to argue it should go in a way more to their liking, which is a similar approach taken by some commentators within other fandoms who are unhappy at how their favourite franchise has developed or unfolded.

TAnd concerning High Elves, what is and will continue to show more is that there's a specific fantasy that exists on the Alliance as of even this current expansion which there's a large amount of people for. This High Elf community is the largest compared to other race requests, and I already made the arguments that Blizzard tends to go by majority feedback. It will look more and more frank when the only big thing being asked for race customization wise is High Elves.

On the specific point of High Elf exiles within the Alliance, particular emphasis has been placed on the importance of keeping the factions separate and of course, keeping the factions distinct. High Elven exiles are ignored because making them playable violates the design goal of keeping the factions distinct. Every avenue towards that outcome has been methodically shut down as this debate has progressed. Will they be a core race? No they will not. That's what the vocal high elf fan base wanted, the vocal high elf fanbase was ignored. Will they be an allied race? No they will not. That was what the vocal High Elf fan base switched to once they became aware of the concept, the vocal high elf fanbase was ignored. Now we reach the absolute dregs, a customization option for Void Elves. This is probably what a lot of pro High Elfers would like, the ability to look like a Blood Elf, but what you cannot do is pretend to be a High Elf if that happens. You will always be a Void Elf.

Like I said, no one's going to make a thread with blatantly false information that's been confirmed false and expect it to be open. The number of threads on a specific topic doesn't matter, it is that there hasn't been a definite answer given that High Elves on Alliance are never going to happen.

If you can't interpret the two occasions they were publicly ruled out within the past two years and the multiple occasions they've reaffirmed the importance of the faction system AND that racial diversity is an integral part of that faction system then I think you are allowing your hope for a definitive statement to overrule your common sense.

I think you should re-watch that question and its answer. He did not "spend far longer on forum etiquette" during the response to the Void Elf question. Prior to the Void Elf question there was another question that was asking about forum feedback which is where he spent a long time talking about the forum etiquette.

But his High Elf skin answer to Void Elves question was literally 3 short points 1) It's possible 2) Don't give up hope 3) Be respectful about it during posting. The long discussion of forum etiquette occurs almost 5 mins before the Void Elf High Elf skin question and then immediately after Afrasiabi's 3 main part reponse they dive into asking about Heritage armor unlocks.

And the "be respectful forum post" bit is certainly because there's a lot of toxicity coming from both sides on this topic. No one side is innocent, both are toxic about it. Blood Elf players have some imo pretty shitty/lame reasons for trying to lock out customization options from the Alliance players and Void Elf players and have had to put up with way more troll responses/comments than other Allied Race threads have had to, which in turn makes people suspect if they're actually trying to have a discussion with merits or just here to shit on people's parade. We can see that multiple times within this own thread, where there's often new accounts/passerby who just leave a troll-y comment and get flagged or banned for it more often from the anti-side. From the pro-side there is some bans/flags too but it's more due to people having lost patience to deal with trolls. Something that's perfectly acceptable and why I more often am preaching to just ignore people not looking to have an actual discussion.

The timestamps helpfully listed in the comments of that video show that he spent 26 seconds on the question and answer. The question began at 24:18, the answer began at 24:33, his response is 'there's always a chance', completed by 24:34 (3 seconds), don't give up hope which was completed by 24:36 (2 seconds)and the remaining four seconds given over to being respectful about making posts.

After re-watching it and parsing simply to respond you, I find there is even less here than I recalled. This is incredibly flimsy ground to pin your hopes on.

And the 'shitty reasons' are our desire that our chosen race is treated with as much respect as any other race in the game, and that if you want to play our race you actually have to play our race rather than attempting to get High Elves through the back door. Some players respect Blizzard's design and narrative choices and if the only way to play a traditional high elf is on the Horde, then that is where you should come to play a traditional high elf.

Trying to "out-troll" one another doesn't achieve anything. And just causes headaches for forum moderators, which is most likely why Alex made that comment, cuz he understands the specific vitriol that comes with the High Elf topic compared to others. Like look at the recent datamine of Blood Elf DK eye change and people who came in here to troll "lol there's your high elves" and how rightly they were dealt with.

Blood Elf Death Knights ARE High Elves as Blood Elves ARE High Elves. Should Blood Elves get blue eyes and I would reckon the chances are fairly good that they will, that will be an interesting day in this topic.

You do not see the same level thing occurring with those who wanted Vulpera or San'layn or Ogres or Gilbins. But for some reason there's a lot more trolls for the High Elf topic and thus there's a lot more people who take the bait.

If you are mystified as to why this particular request generates this much hostility then you clearly aren't paying attention. You are attempting to duplicate a core race of the Horde faction so you can play that race without having to be Horde. And I don't really think you should respond to this with a list of all the ways you think the High Elf exiles as different. As I said at the very beginning, your perception as to how they are different is at odds with the miniscule level of differentiation there actually is. The best I've heard rustled up is the blue eyes and there's an extremely good chance Blood Elves will be getting that option.

[Ignaz]

I do believe that Allied races will get additional customization, but uncorrupted skin options for Void Elves come with these faction issues they keep bringing up. There may be a few high elves on the Alliance, but as long as Blizzard maintains the positions that playable races should be exclusive to their respective factions and that Blood Elves are not corrupted significantly by definition, I don't see why they would make that exception. High elves may have been requested for a very long time, but they're also the Horde's most popular race. If there is one race that would threaten faction balance, it is surely the most popular one. After all, that was why the Horde got high elves in the first place.

I don't mind ideas like half elf customizations for humans, or some options for night elf highborne who never left Kalimdor, for some examples. Those options would be supported by a unique position in the story to make them appear visually more similar to a high elf, without being identical to a Blood Elves. Uncorrupted Void Elves, however, are literally just Blood Elves on the Alliance that can't be paladins or demon hunters. In my opinion, we already have an uncorrupted high elf race, and I don't think the factions should be used as an excuse for duplicating races or for splitting the customization options a race has available into multiple otherwise identical races. Highmountain tauren and lightforged draenei are both unreasonably shallow as races, and I don't think that's the right direction for the game. Antlers or shiny tattoos should not cost $25 for a race change, let alone putting them on the opposite faction, like some suggest as a way to make high elves different from Blood Elves.

It's not even an issue of "Why should the Horde share?" it's an issue of "Why should the game have fewer overall options and factions that are less distinct?" I'd like to see people get some options that they feel comfortable rping high elves with, but copying Blood Elves over to the Alliance is not a good option, and neither is re-imagining the high elf model or customization options to arbitrarily make them physically different from Blood Elves. However, I know that many people in this thread are not willing to accept anything other than an "Alliance high elf," so I don't know how Blizzard could give those people what they want without sacrificing something that they consider more important.

In my opinion, faction identity was destroyed at the exact moment allied races were announced. Everything that made '' unique '' a large part of the races was no longer. And what violated that identity more was the integration of Void Elves and Nightborne Elves

TLDR: faction balance and exclusivity are important to WoW, at least for the devs' vision of the game, and it is more interesting to have distinct races with greater depth and breadth of customization options than a higher number of very similar races with fewer options for customization.

or you could have both

[Ielenia]

TLDR: faction balance and exclusivity are important to WoW, at least for the devs' vision of the game, and it is more interesting to have distinct races with greater depth and breadth of customization options than a higher number of very similar races with fewer options for customization.

I think this ship was put in the water with the pandaren, and then set to sail with the allied races. Now races don't have to be 'unique' or independent from the existing races to be viable.

[FlubberPuddy]

There is no way of saying without being blunt.

Nobody beyond the pro High Elf community cares about that. It is an irrelevant factor. Not only did Blizzard make Void Elves rather than give the Alliance High Elves, they even sourced those Void Elves from former Blood Elves. All Blizzard cared about is there is a traditional High Elf option available in the Blood Elves, they regard that as forming a part of the faction distinctiveness of the Horde, and they threw the Alliance a bone with a race that is pretty close to what they wanted but not exactly.

But all that stuff about them being part of the Alliance? The creation of Void Elves tells you all you need to know about that. So yes, it ignores those High Elven exiles aligned to the Alliance. Seemingly everyone else is, I just don't want to feel left out.

If all you mean to say here is "who cares" then frankly people requesting the High Elves can do the same thing. Don't need to dress it up with actual evidence of their presence - something that other races (Ogres) barely even have or (Drogbar) are non-existant.


Also saying, "nobody outside the Helf community cares about that" is patently false as there have been people who say they don't give a fuck about High Elves but feel it's alright that Alliance gets them.

Call it bias if you wish, but it is just the game maintaining the status quo. There was a far more visible Void Elf presence within BFA than you like to admit, and the fact I have seen people getting excited over the addition of one or two high elf npcs at a given time is a sign of desperation. Void Elves ARE the High Elves of the Alliance. Void Elves ARE the future of the High Elves within the Alliance. Part of the reason I have dropped the term Alliance High Elves in favour of High Elf exiles is that Alliance High Elf is also a synonym for Void Elves, as unlike the Dalaran dwelling high elf exiles, the Void Elves are unquestionably a part of the Alliance.

Uh, of course there is more presence being put to Void Elves. There was more presence being put to every Allied Race in BfA because Allied Races are a BfA feature. If it wasn't Void Elves, it would've been whatever else took their Allied Race spot. This isn't a strong argument at all.

It would be like pointing out the importance of Demon Hunters to the story of the Legion expansion. Thanks Captain Obvious.

Several people over the course of this debate have said they have quit the game because High Elves weren't announced for the Alliance. But that isn't the point, you don't invalidate a comparison by attempting to make them match exactly. The point is that the complaint of the pro High Elfer community is that Warcraft has unfolded in a way contrary to the way they wished it would and they have been very vocal in trying to argue it should go in a way more to their liking, which is a similar approach taken by some commentators within other fandoms who are unhappy at how their favourite franchise has developed or unfolded.

Yeah and some of those same people have come back (I have noticed their posts talking about how they still play or are back to playing). There are also posts where those against High Elves would say they'd quit the game if they were added and I later see posts (this was months ago) saying that they've already ended their sub over some small reason Blizzard made.

The reason I focus on the majority and not the minority is like I said, with a game as big as WoW you can conceivably find almost any kind of player. You can find anyone who will love everything Blizzard does all the way to finding someone that hates every single decision Blizzard makes. This is true of any franchise once it's big enough, but focusing on outliers doesn't have any merit. Do you think Blizzard listens to players who wish they can get mythic raid gear for simply logging in? I would hope not, despite somewhere on the internet such a person exists.

Are some people upset with the way they took High Elves to Blood Elves? Sure. But there's also people like me (and others) who actually like the split that occurred and also really enjoy the group who broke from that split into Blood Elves, aka Alliance High Elves. They have an interesting to the people who find them interesting.

Just like the only people who care about class balance are probably not the same type of people who care about pet-battle balance. Pointing out that "only helfers care about this" as if it means something outside where its concerned. The majority of the playerbase doesn't like Mechagnomes and thinks there trash, they still became an Allied Race. What we can tell here is that a majority of the playerbase liking something is not required for it to become an Allied Race.

On the specific point of High Elf exiles within the Alliance, particular emphasis has been placed on the importance of keeping the factions separate and of course, keeping the factions distinct. High Elven exiles are ignored because making them playable violates the design goal of keeping the factions distinct. Every avenue towards that outcome has been methodically shut down as this debate has progressed. Will they be a core race? No they will not. That's what the vocal high elf fan base wanted, the vocal high elf fanbase was ignored. Will they be an allied race? No they will not. That was what the vocal High Elf fan base switched to once they became aware of the concept, the vocal high elf fanbase was ignored. Now we reach the absolute dregs, a customization option for Void Elves. This is probably what a lot of pro High Elfers would like, the ability to look like a Blood Elf, but what you cannot do is pretend to be a High Elf if that happens. You will always be a Void Elf.

The "factions being distinct" design goal that you're trying to herald here already became defunct when Void Elves came to the Alliance. Thus giving Alliance the exact same Thalassian model - not even a modified one like the Nightborne.

If you can't interpret the two occasions they were publicly ruled out within the past two years and the multiple occasions they've reaffirmed the importance of the faction system AND that racial diversity is an integral part of that faction system then I think you are allowing your hope for a definitive statement to overrule your common sense.

And Blizzard has "publicly ruled out" things like transmog before deciding it probably is a good idea and implementing it, and w/e else they first denied. There's someone on MMO-C here that has their signature filled of things that Blizzard said they'd never do and then later implemented. And besides that, High Elves weren't "publicly ruled out" again you are pushing the narrative that this potential conversation thread with the developers are done and decided and no further changes will come. We have not received that kind of answer, despite what you may think. It is not the same as how Pathfinder stays and the request to have flying immediately is received with a blunt, "no".

If you want to speak about "common sense" the common sense answer that was given meant don't expect to see High Elves as an Allied Race for BfA or anytime soon. That's actually what was said for a question that was being asked almost every Q&A and ofc they had to provide an answer cuz it kept popping up. Lore even states right before it was a popular question.

The timestamps helpfully listed in the comments of that video show that he spent 26 seconds on the question and answer. The question began at 24:18, the answer began at 24:33, his response is 'there's always a chance', completed by 24:34 (3 seconds), don't give up hope which was completed by 24:36 (2 seconds)and the remaining four seconds given over to being respectful about making posts.

After re-watching it and parsing simply to respond you, I find there is even less here than I recalled. This is incredibly flimsy ground to pin your hopes on.

See, you can't even admit you were way off the mark. You somehow must've combined the answer from the previous question and added it to the VE one.

A second is not "far longer" as you put it. If you don't want to admit something small that's ok. I'll take this as a win.

And the 'shitty reasons' are our desire that our chosen race is treated with as much respect as any other race in the game, and that if you want to play our race you actually have to play our race rather than attempting to get High Elves through the back door. Some players respect Blizzard's design and narrative choices and if the only way to play a traditional high elf is on the Horde, then that is where you should come to play a traditional high elf.

But Night Elf fans don't get to play Nightborne on their faction??? Your response here shows complete bias, the developers knew that both sides wanted the Nightborne and they are essentially Night Elven ancestry and still gave that over to Horde. Why should people who are Night Elf fans (like me) have to "respect that" when the same respect wasn't given to our chosen race???

This is where your own argument destroys itself. Nightborne ARE Night Elven ancestry, just like High Elves ARE Blood Elven ancestry. Yet it appears you and others are perfectly fine to have not respected those Night Elf players that wanted Nightborne yet at the same time try to admonish others for wanting High Elves? A race that actually still appears within the Alliance.

This is why the above argument makes no sense. If it's something that actually mattered then Blizzard wouldn't have put the Nightborne on the Horde in the first place. Frankly what can be taken away from it is that Blizzard will do whatever Blizzard wants to do at the time they're doing it and will make up any reason for doing so.

This is also why people are miffed where the developers have taken the Sylvanas story and many are skeptical that Blizzard "planned it all along" because going back to previous sources shows nothing to infer that planning.

This is why so many in the media community (Youtubers/Wowhead/RedShirtGuy) etc called bullshit on Blizzard's High Elf Q&A response. They knew Blizzard was just talking out their ass. Just as many of those same media community people are calling them out now for how they're taking Sylvanas's story.

But it works in your favor and anyone who's stance is to kill the High Elf request, so it's not surprising to see you utilize it as if Blizzard is 100% true and correct with how they handle this subject.

Nightborne already kills this argument.

Blood Elf Death Knights ARE High Elves as Blood Elves ARE High Elves. Should Blood Elves get blue eyes and I would reckon the chances are fairly good that they will, that will be an interesting day in this topic.

That's not the point, point is people were trolling with the information and got rightly flagged/banned. That was an example to show the type of troll-y behavior people have towards those asking for High Elves.

If you are mystified as to why this particular request generates this much hostility then you clearly aren't paying attention. You are attempting to duplicate a core race of the Horde faction so you can play that race without having to be Horde. And I don't really think you should respond to this with a list of all the ways you think the High Elf exiles as different. As I said at the very beginning, your perception as to how they are different is at odds with the miniscule level of differentiation there actually is. The best I've heard rustled up is the blue eyes and there's an extremely good chance Blood Elves will be getting that option.

Again, Nightborne kill this argument. You got Horde Night Elves. Talk about different stance/etc all you want, it's the same shit people suggest for getting High Elves on Alliance. It's just clear Blizzard doesn't have some set way they deal with each Allied Race addition because if they did we would not have so many inconsistencies being pointed out about certain Allied Races over others (like how people say LF Draenei and HM Tauren are a waste-of-a-slot and could've just been customization options).

[Strippling]

SNIP

Nightborne are a completely separate race to night elves, they've evolved over the course of 10,000 years to become a unique race. High elves on the other hand have not experienced this level of evolution as they've literally only been separated by their kin for 10-15 years and still draw energy from the same font of power (sunwell). Nightborne drew from a different source of power to the night elves for 10,000 years and subsequently became a unique elven race.

The nightborne (also spelled the Nightborne)[2] or shal'dorei in the native tongue[3][4] are a powerful and mystical race of elves who live in Suramar. Since the city was first separated from the rest of the world over 10,000 years ago, they are no longer true night elves and have evolved by the Nightwell into a unique elven species.

Compare that to high elves:
However, a few high elves did not rename themselves blood elves. High elves and blood elves are physiologically the same race, and the difference between high and blood elves is only political

So your counter-argument falls flat on its face. Void elves on the other hand have undergone a form of transformation and have become something different to their high/blood elven kin. Hence why they were made as the AR and not high elves, who as stated above, are the exact same as blood elves... they are the same race. We have senior developers confirming this on several occasions, and no amount of head canon or personal bias can change this FACT.

You want a high elf? The Horde is waiting for you, at no extra cost to your subscription. You have the exact same opportunity as me or any other player to create a high elven character, and have had so since TBC.

[Alxblaw]

Oh again this shit, fuck up the Elf

[FlubberPuddy]

SNIP

You show a lack of understanding of my argument using the Nightborne. They are what the Night Elf civilization used to be. Obelisk's argument is "that if you want to play our race you actually have to play our race" yet Horde players don't have to do this. They get to play their own version of a Night Elf.

And if you think Nightborne are not Night Elves then it's just apparent obtuseness. Why do people refer to them and Void Elves as a "tit for tat" or "you got our elf and we got yours"? It's because it's very obvious Nightborne are Night Elves. So in that same vein of Obelisk's argument, why aren't Horde having to make the choice of "if you want to play our race you actually have to play our race"? Nightborne are the "back door option" for Horde Night Elves.

I have to question anyone's sincerity in thinking they're not because it's very blatantly agreed upon.

[Ignaz]

Nightborne are a completely separate race to night elves, they've evolved over the course of 10,000 years to become a unique race. High elves on the other hand have not experienced this level of evolution as they've literally only been separated by their kin for 10-15 years and still draw energy from the same font of power (sunwell). Nightborne drew from a different source of power to the night elves for 10,000 years and subsequently became a unique elven race.

The nightborne (also spelled the Nightborne)[2] or shal'dorei in the native tongue[3][4] are a powerful and mystical race of elves who live in Suramar. Since the city was first separated from the rest of the world over 10,000 years ago, they are no longer true night elves and have evolved by the Nightwell into a unique elven species.

Compare that to high elves:
However, a few high elves did not rename themselves blood elves. High elves and blood elves are physiologically the same race, and the difference between high and blood elves is only political

So your counter-argument falls flat on its face. Void elves on the other hand have undergone a form of transformation and have become something different to their high/blood elven kin. Hence why they were made as the AR and not high elves, who as stated above, are the exact same as blood elves... they are the same race. We have senior developers confirming this on several occasions, and no amount of head canon or personal bias can change this FACT.

You want a high elf? The Horde is waiting for you, at no extra cost to your subscription. You have the exact same opportunity as me or any other player to create a high elven character, and have had so since TBC.

Do you even know what physiology is?

[Strippling]

You show a lack of understanding of my argument using the Nightborne. They are what the Night Elf civilization used to be. Obelisk's argument is "that if you want to play our race you actually have to play our race" yet Horde players don't have to do this. They get to play their own version of a Night Elf.

Again, nightborne are a completely different race to night elves. They descend from night elves, and that's where their connection ends. No different to all elves descending from trolls. They have as much in common with night elves as they do trolls. High elves on the other hand have only but a political difference. The high elf race is already playable, hence the reason "the horde is waiting for you". Night elves are already playable, so if I wanted to play one I can do so on the Alliance. Nightborne are not night elves and are canonically a different race of elves to any other elves. So, back to square one, high elves are not different to blood elves... the two being the same race. As such, void elves were created as a new and unique elven race as a counterpart to the Nightborne. The only tit-for-tat is the model, not the race.

And if you think Nightborne are not Night Elves then it's just apparent obtuseness.

The nightborne (also spelled the Nightborne)[2] or shal'dorei in the native tongue[3][4] are a powerful and mystical race of elves who live in Suramar. Since the city was first separated from the rest of the world over 10,000 years ago, they are no longer true night elves and have evolved by the Nightwell into a unique elven species.

No obtuseness, just canon based facts.

So in that same vein of Obelisk's argument, why aren't Horde having to make the choice of "if you want to play our race you actually have to play our race"? Nightborne are the "back door option" for Horde Night Elves.

Again, nightborne are a different race of elves to night elves. Alliance aligned high elves are not a different race of elves to blood elves. Given that blood/high elf exiles are the same race, Blizzard gave their reasonable response "the Horde is waiting for you". Given the nightborne and night elves are NOT the same elven race, no such statement was given to players.... well actually no such statement was given to Horde players because we don't tend to ask for alliance races to be on the Horde.

[Doffen]

Again, nightborne are a completely different race to night elves. They descend from night elves, and that's where their connection ends.

They are the same night elves as Tyrande, just that the Nightwell changed their physical appearance. They ARE Night Elves.

It would be the same as someone claiming that Void Elves are totally different from High Elves. They are still High Elves, just changed their physical appearance.

[Strippling]

Do you even know what physiology is?

The quote was extracted from a source, not my own words.

Physiology is one aspect of biology. It seems though you're more concerned with arguing semantics then actually discussing the topic at hand.

If you disagree with me then please offer an explanation, backed with credible sources. If not, arguing semantics only makes you look desperate.

[Ignaz]

The quote was extracted from a source, not my own words.

Physiology is one aspect of biology. It seems though you're more concerned with arguing semantics then actually discussing the topic at hand.

If you disagree with me then please offer an explanation, backed with credible sources. If not, arguing semantics only makes you look desperate.

Semantics has a lot to do if you're going to argue against an idea. A word can completely change the meaning of a sentence.
And it is more important if you will use that reference to validate your point

If your ''source '' knows some of physiology, he / she must understand that it is a science that studies biological processes that keep different organisms alive. Knowing this, the argument that HE and BE are physiologically the same is irrelevant since that '' equality '' could be shared with other races.

And if you mean ''genetically the same '' that would be closer to what (I think) your source wanted to say, and even using genetic excuses, it would be wrong, since BE mutated because of the interaction with fel magic (yes, the change of skin and eye color can be considered a mutation)

[FlubberPuddy]

They are the same night elves as Tyrande, just that the Nightwell changed their physical appearance. They ARE Night Elves.

It would be the same as someone claiming that Void Elves are totally different from High Elves. They are still High Elves, just changed their physical appearance.

Exactly. Tyrande grew up in Suramar, it was her home. That Nightborne changed doesn't matter. They represent an aspect of Night Elf society and thus should belong to Night elf players the same way Blood Elf players try to claim everything with the high elf race belongs to them.

It's the same concept. Yet people don't like it when you try to use that kind of logic here.

[Ielenia]

Oh again this shit, fuck up the Elf

If you're not here to contribute to the discussion, from either side... why are you even here? To whine about people talking about something you don't care about?

[Doffen]

Exactly. Tyrande grew up in Suramar, it was her home. That Nightborne changed doesn't matter. They represent an aspect of Night Elf society and thus should belong to Night elf players the same way Blood Elf players try to claim everything with the high elf race belongs to them.

It's the same concept. Yet people don't like it when you try to use that kind of logic here.

It is, and yeah, I have been here discussing. Not participating much here anymore, but still read a lot.

The Nightborne is the Highborn. Simple as that. They were the followers of Queen Azshara until they figured out she was insane. Tyrande was part of that society. But she was different in her ideologies compared to the rest, eventually. Night Elves is a broad term, every elf we see in the game comes from the Night Elves. Highborne, Nightborne, Night Elves, High Elves, Blood Elves, Void Elves, other elves, Half-elves etc. The difference though compared to High Elves is that the Nightborne stayed in Suramar and Kalimdor. They practiced their old ways, as Night Elves. You can see that from the Highborne of Shen'ralar. They kept their Night Elf appearance, this is how Thal'ryssa and the other Nightborne would have looked like if they didn't get changed from the Nightwell.

The ingame cut-scene from Thal'ryssa talking about Suramar is proof of this. She got the Night Elven look.

[Shakana]

They are the same night elves as Tyrande, just that the Nightwell changed their physical appearance. They ARE Night Elves.

It would be the same as someone claiming that Void Elves are totally different from High Elves. They are still High Elves, just changed their physical appearance.

I think we need to make a drawing: Humans: variety of colors, variety of eye colors, variety of skins, variety of political views, thin and fat, still HUMANS. On a fantasy game, they (High/Blood Elves) just got their eyes changed by something that happened instead of being born with it, doesn't mean they are not the same.

But you have as well kultirans to show different humans.

So this being said, you can have repeated races, but i don't think it's necessary. That's all. They even made Kultirans large to differentiate from normal humans.

Why would blizz make players look to blood elves eyes or high elves eyes, to see who is who, unless, they change their appearance too?

They can change them.I will stay with @Ignaz and say Nozdormu High elves personalization is the option here, no Doubt. They would look more unique. They got separated from Blood Elves so they can change meanwhile.

Maybe the Fel exposure didn't let Blood Elves evolve in appearance, but High Elves did. There is so much more stuff where you can have creat(e)ivity and not just mess around with the information you have, lore wasn't made with existent things, lore was created with creativity.

Being creative means someone that knows how to create. Not make a copy of a copy. And in this game you don't need to go in such a straight line.

(Even more them using void elves to show how we can just twist the lore in matter of seconds)

Nightborne will always be Night Elves variation. Evolved in a unique way, doesn't mean they are not night elves.

Night Elves evolved to Highborne and High elves, from Highborne to Nightborne, and High Elves to Blood Elves, from High/Blood to Void Elves.

Night Elves are like Human race, that had and have different people in every corner. It's ironic we being humans and not understanding there's different elves but they all came from the same first elves - Night Elves.

And the more they evolved, the more they appreciated other luxury than just nature, and living in trees. Seems pretty similar to humanity, in the beginning without much constructions there was a lot of nature, the more people appreciate architecture and loved luxury, the more that nature disappeared. But there's still places like those, for example, let's say Amazon. But they are trying to destroy amazon too. For what? To get wood, to make luxury toilet paper and paper in general. This is a luxury, i'm sure the nightborne would love it.

Dark trolls were the Australopithecus, and Night Elves are the genus Homo/Homo sapiens. (In evolution terms, not being racist, btw.)

My analogy:
All the elves are like humanity.
All elves exist.
None is dead.

[Strippling]

Semantics has a lot to do if you're going to argue against an idea. A word can completely change the meaning of a sentence.
And it is more important if you will use that reference to validate your point

If your ''source '' knows some of physiology, he / she must understand that it is a science that studies biological processes that keep different organisms alive. Knowing this, the argument that HE and BE are physiologically the same is irrelevant since that '' equality '' could be shared with other races.

And if you mean ''genetically the same '' that would be closer to what (I think) your source wanted to say, and even using genetic excuses, it would be wrong, since BE mutated because of the interaction with fel magic (yes, the change of skin and eye color can be considered a mutation)

Firstly, I'm not interested in semantics. If you can't clearly and concisely state your argument, followed by backing it with credible sources, then you're really just reaching and arguing for the sake of personal biased agenda.

Secondly, we know blood elves and high elves are biologically the same. Blood elves were never "mutated", simply tainted due to indirect exposure to fel. That taint is cleansing, as is apparent due to the golden eye options. Soon blue eye options may also become a reality (we'll find out when blood elf customizations are announced/datamined), which would further support the notion that blood elves who don't dabble with fel (ie pretty much any blood elf who isn't a warlock or DH) are slowly being cleansed by the sunwell. And guess what, the high elf exiles are also sustained by this very same sunwell... further bonding the biology and physiology of both groups.

- - - Updated - - -

Exactly. Tyrande grew up in Suramar, it was her home. That Nightborne changed doesn't matter. They represent an aspect of Night Elf society and thus should belong to Night elf players the same way Blood Elf players try to claim everything with the high elf race belongs to them.

It's the same concept. Yet people don't like it when you try to use that kind of logic here.

Not the same concept. At all.

Nightborne are a new type of elf, evolved from the night elves. Alliance aligned high elves are not a new type of elf, and are the exact same race as blood elves. Massive difference.

Nightborne have lived separately to night elves for 10,000 years. Alliance aligned high elves have lived separately to Horde high elves (ie blood elves) for 10-15 years. Massive difference.

- - - Updated - - -

And the 'shitty reasons' are our desire that our chosen race is treated with as much respect as any other race in the game, and that if you want to play our race you actually have to play our race rather than attempting to get High Elves through the back door. Some players respect Blizzard's design and narrative choices and if the only way to play a traditional high elf is on the Horde, then that is where you should come to play a traditional high elf.

Pretty much this.